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Austin McCoy, "Living in a D.A.I.S.Y. Age: The Music, Culture, and World De La Soul Made" (Atria/One Signal, 2026)
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- [00:01]
Austin McCoy
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [00:05]
Michael Stout
Hello and welcome to the New Books Network. I'm your host, Michael Stout, and today I'm here with Austin McCoy to talk about his new book, Living in a Daisy, the Music, Culture and World De La Soul Made, which is out now from Atria One Signal Publishers. Living in a Daisy Age is a celebration of the world De La Soul made through the eyes of a fan given the opportunity to write about one of his favorite groups. It's interwoven with personal anecdotes about growing up in a daisy age, as well as brilliant observations about the group in the context of hip hop history. And I would add American history and international history in many ways. Austin McCoy is an assistant professor of history at West Virginia University, specializing in African American history, labor history, social movements, and hip hop culture. And his work has appeared in numerous outlets including cnn, the Washington Post, Black Perspectives, and more. He lives in West Virginia. Austin, welcome to the show.
- [00:58]
Austin McCoy
Thanks, Mike. Thanks for having me.
- [01:00]
Michael Stout
I'm really excited to talk about this book. There's a lot to unpack. I wanted to start with the title. Could you explain to us what the daisy age is?
- [01:10]
Austin McCoy
Yeah. So if you listen to Three Feet High and Rising, you get to the last song, and it's called Daisy Age and first, right? The acronym DAISY stands for inner soul, y'. All. And it is a reflection of the group's ethics, right? I mean, like, sort of, you know, remaining true, you know, like producing, you know, art, you know, authentically. Right. I mean, like ideas that, you know, if you talk to artists, you know, whether it is in music or, you know, sort of, you know, writing TV or, you know, comedians or, you know, visual artists, right? I mean, like, everyone, you know, talks about this idea of being authentic, right? I mean, so De La Soul, you know, this was their expression of this idea, this idea of being able to be as creative as possible as a group and, you know, not copying other rappers, not following any trends, even the trends that they. That they set. So they end the album with this song, right? And it's sort of a declaration, right? I mean, that, you know, they have arrived, you know, in hip hop culture and rap music. And, you know, this. The first album, Three Feet High Rising, comes out in 1989. And, you know, I sort of, you know, take that declaration seriously and sort of think about the ways in which De La Soul has shaped rap, hip hop culture, Black culture from 1989 basically, until the present. So that's where the title comes from.
- [02:42]
Michael Stout
Right. Okay. Okay, that makes sense. How did you Come up with that title. Was it. Was it something you can't. That was at the beginning of the process or at the end or, you know, how did that work?
- [02:51]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, so it was at the beginning of the process. And I'm typically not great with titles, you know, so initially this title, the editor that I was working with, you know, she kind of passed on it, you know, which is fine. Like, I mean, you know, I'm very, like, I'm very self conscious about creating titles. So, like, the fact that someone, like, I came up with that, someone's like, eh. I was like, all right, that's fine. I know where my limitations are, you know. And then. So, like, for. For the longest time, right? I mean, it was just sort of an untitled project. And then, you know, basically when I was. When I completed the full draft and submitted it and we started going through edits and I was, you know, I. I had to, you know, I was working with another editor due to sort of personnel changes at the press, and. And now, like, I, you know, reasserted that because we were like, what should the title be? So I was like, well, I came up with this at first, you know, and then, like, I had some other ideas. You know, I think initially I, you know, I would have loved to have used Stakes as high, you know, sort of off of their fourth album. But, you know, Michael Denzel Smith wrote a book with the same title, you know, which is like, all right, well, that's taken. That's fine. You know, and then, so, yeah, like, I had a list and that one was the best of the other ones that I proposed. So that's how we came to that title.
- [04:09]
Michael Stout
Nice. Okay, that's. I love hearing those kinds of things. It was great. I love hearing those kinds of insights about the writing process. Now my next question was, you're trained as a historian of African American history and labor history and social movements. So how did you come to write this book about De La Soul?
- [04:27]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, so I'd always been, you know, a fan of hip hop culture, you know, and I would say a student of rap music since I was a teenager. And, you know, this is even before I even thought I would even become a historian. So, you know, like, you know, whether it is, you know, obviously listening to all the music, you know, getting into debates with friends about the music, you know, reading the Source magazine, you know, other sort of rap magazines, just anything I can get my hands on to sort of learn about the history. So, no, I've always, you know, sort of been into, you Know, thinking about rap in hip hop culture historically, of course. When I went to grad school, like, I, you know, it was a matter of, okay, like, what kind of project can I do that? You know, one. We have a. So I have a source base. Right. I mean, so like, going really into inside baseball here with what we do. Right. It's like you need, you know, something I talk to my grad students about. Well, like, I want to do this project. Well, do you have sources for that? Right. You know, and no. I've also always been interested in sort of studying political organizing and social movements. Uh, so, you know, like, I think, you know, once I became a professor, I started teaching, you know, hip hop history classes. And I've always, you know, been, you know, active on social media. You know, so, like, all these things came together in 2023 when, no, I had been like, tweeting about David Jalacour's passing and, you know, an editor reached out to me and asked if I would, you know, be interested in writing a book about De La Soul. And I was, you know, like, absolutely. You know, if I can, you know, we can make this happen. Absolutely. This would be amazing, you know, and, you know, De La Soul, you know, of course, one of my favorite rap groups. And it was just, you know, the. The opportunity just presented itself and I took it. And no, it's one of the best decisions I've ever made.
- [06:26]
Michael Stout
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. Now, having been a person that studied them and was thinking about not just hip hop, but also De La Soul for a long time, the next question I'm thinking about is, like, what did you learn during the writing and research that you didn't know before? You know, was or was there. Was there something specific from the archives or how. How did that whole thing work?
- [06:47]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, so one thing, like. So there. There are a few things and one aspect about them that I, you know, sort of vaguely understood, but I didn't really fully understand until I started, you know, thinking about their music in historical context was, you know, the sort of ways in which that they express their social criticism on Three Feet High and Rising, you know, so of course you have say no Go, which is an anti drug abuse song, and that's pretty explicit. But then you have songs like Tread Water, where, you know, it's sort of a fable. They're rapping about, you know, talking to animals and sort of, you know, there are lines that allude to sort of trying to avoid violence and trying to avoid death. Right. I mean, I feel like that's, you know, again, another reflection of the 1980s crack era and folks sort of, you know, trying to survive that moment. So, like, you know, there's that piece, another piece that I was vaguely aware of, but I didn't really fully understand the background to it was their split with Prince Paul. So Prince Paul, you know, is one of the, you know, was the. The group's main, you know, mentor, you know, one of the producers of the first three albums. You know, they. They work together until stakes is high. And, you know, I hadn't really learned about the story or the backstory of the recording of that album where Apostanus and Trugoi Amacio, they were trying to, like, they. They wanted to record a more, quote, serious album, right? I mean, compared to their first three albums, you know, which has serious moments, you know. But the albums are also seen as irreverent, right? I mean, they're seen as whimsical, which they are. And that's why a lot of people gravitated towards them. But no, like, De La Soul wanted to address what was taking place in rap music in the mid-1980s, whether it is, you know, the sort of, you know, the uptick in. In sort of inner city violence, the beef between Biggie and Tupac, the sort of larger lyrical battles that were taking place in hip hop that sort of transcended Tupac and Biggie. And then thinking about the ways in which rappers and rap music have become, in their eyes, more materialistic and sort of more wealth driven when we think about, again, bad boy Sean Combs, you know, you know, Nas's you know, second album. Right. I mean, like, you have this shift in hip hop, you know, that is, you know, gravitating. Not necessarily from a more conscious standpoint, but rap was very diverse, you know, in the. In the late 80s into the 90s. And then, you know, rap becomes, according to De La Soul and other. And other rappers and other fans like myself at the time, you know, becomes more commercialized, you know, so, like, they're speaking out against all this stuff as a. In addition to, you know, you know, speaking out against racism and other social ills, right. And sort of political issues. So, you know, they basically came to an agreement with Prince Paul that, okay, you know, your tone and how you sort of approach music making in the sort of comedic tone within it isn't matching this album. So, like, they sort of decided to part ways. And there are still remnants of Prince Paul on Dog Eat Dog. I, you know, if you listen to the song you know, there's a sample of a dog barking and that, you know, Prince Paul, you know, like, that was sort of what he brought to that song. But other than that, he doesn't really appear on the album in terms of production. So. Yeah, that's one. That's one story, one backstory I hadn't really knew, I didn't really know about until I started doing research.
- [10:34]
Michael Stout
Got it, got it, got it. Well, going back to your kind of, like, lifelong interest in the group, there's also a lot of Austin McCoy in this book. One of my favorite anecdotes is from page 149. And maybe, you know, the way. Another way I wanted to ask this question was like, are you relieved that the statute of limitations on graffiti art has passed? Because the anecdote on page 149, you described trying your hand at graffiti art with friends, only to stop after learning that police were investigating a. These young ruffians. And the part that I love, it comes with a direct quotation from a primary source that you then cite. So I was like, this is truly a historian working at a very high level.
- [11:14]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah, like, you know the answer to the first part of the question. Absolutely. Glad that, you know, I'm not gonna. If I ever go back to my hometown, I'm not gonna get busted for doing some graffiti from, like, almost 30 years ago. Some bad graffiti, really. And, yeah, like, I, you know, I put myself in the story because on the one hand, you know, my friends and my family know, you know, how much I am a fan of hip hop and how much I love hip hop and even De La Soul, but most folks don't. Right. And so it's like, who is this historian that is writing about this group that is a beloved group? And, you know. And, of course. Right. You have other folks who've written books about De La Soul, like Marcus Moore and. Yeah, he's a journalist. Journalists are a lot of. Many of the folks who are writing about rap music and hip hop culture, and that's their community in itself. Right. I mean, so, yeah, for me to sort of step in and write this book, I could be seen by some as an outsider. I could be seen by some aspect. Well, who's this person? He's not a performer. He's not a hip hop artist. He's a scholar, and I respect that. So I wanted to make sure that I could explain where I was coming from. That's why I start the book by talking about my experiences teaching De La Soul or trying to talk about them in the classroom. But then also I insert much of myself because, you know, I had developed a relationship with the group as a fan and as a listener, you know, for the past 30 something years. And yeah, I also wanted to, you know, I want to. I want readers to understand, you know, my engagement with hip hop culture, but also sort of my own intellectual development and the ways in which De La Soul might have, you know, helped shape that.
- [13:13]
Michael Stout
Yeah, no, I think that really makes a lot of sense. And I actually think that a historian writing about this stuff can bring a lot to the table. Maybe we'll come back to that. But while we're on that subject, I wanted to ask a little bit more about how writing a book like this for a popular audience or a popular press was, you know, what are the similarities and differences to the academic writing process as you're familiar with it?
- [13:39]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, I mean, so, you know, one similarity for me is. Well, you know, one thing I will say is there, I don't think I could have written this book without my academic training.
- [13:49]
Michael Stout
Right.
- [13:49]
Austin McCoy
I mean, my training as a historian and sort of learning how to do primary source research, process. All these sources, use these sources to at least make an implied argument about De La Soul and to sort of obviously synthesize all this information and put it in context. So, yeah, like, if something. If something were to happen and I hadn't gone through this process and somehow was still able to write a book about De La Soul, the book is going to be, I think, would be very different. You know, I mean, like, I'm not going to be citing other historians like Robin Kelly or Catherine Jewell. Right. I mean, like, you know, and I would probably have sort of dealt more with most of the journalistic sources that I relied on too. So that's sort of one thing that stands out with the process in terms of the relationship between my training and the book itself. But then something that is different is, of course, I did a lot of background reading about De La Soul, not just primary sources, but secondary sources in terms of hip hop generally. And there's a lot of work written about hip hop groups, rap music. And it's in a way, just this sort of like, I feel like I only touched the tip of the iceberg. And as historians, we also make arguments about historiography.
- [15:24]
Michael Stout
Right.
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Austin McCoy
I mean, which is something that this book does less of. Like, I sort of. Obviously, I'm just jumping right in and I'm sort of trying to provide historical context and sort of, you know, articulate why De La Soul was important within the history of hip Hop, but I'm doing less engaging of arguments about the origins of hip hop culture. You know, was it, you know, you know, was it South Bronx or was it somewhere else in New York? Or what does it mean? You know, what. What do we think about the origin stories of other place of hip hop and other places? You know, so, yeah, like, I was, you know, I had to, you know, I didn't have to sort of engage those types of questions, at least directly with this.
- [16:05]
Michael Stout
Right. I think that's fair. But I also think to give credit that you. You're able to make a case for certain contributions that De La Soul makes to the history of Hip hop alongside a more narrative driven story that you're telling. So how would you describe those contributions to an audience perhaps that's unfamiliar with their work or coming to your book with no previous experience? A class of undergraduates, for example, like, how would you describe it to them?
- [16:34]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, I mean, you know, De La Soul's contributions, you know, entail, you know, one sort of being able to, you know, being willing to stand out from the crowd, right. And sort of even slim against the mainstream. So whether it is, you know, you watch me, myself and I, you watch the video and they, you know, present themselves aesthetically different than all the other people in the class. Right? Everyone else in the class are dressed like LL Cool J or Run dmc, Right. I mean, like, they sort of adopted the sort of dominant, masculine, in many ways aesthetic of, you know, of rap music in the 1980s. And de la Soul rebelled against that, you know, with their, you know, with their sort of day glow, you know, aesthetic, the sort of, you know, the daisy imagery, you know, they're wearing different types of clothing. They're not wearing big gold chains. But then also, in addition to that, you know, part of this, you know, aesthetic is, you know, them being able to sort of present a more complicated understanding of black masculinity. Right. I mean, so they presented themselves in this way. Pasta News raps about, you know, wearing glasses, right? I mean, like, in sort of, you know, folks sort of like, them sort of introducing this idea that it was okay to not be hard, it was okay to be vulnerable, it was okay to even look nerdy and rap. But also for them, on their end, they're like, on their second album, they're also like, we'll beat you up, right? You know, so, like, they're sort of inhabiting a very complicated understanding of black masculinity and rap music that Sort of sets this. That helps set the stage for other artists like Outkast. It's hard to sort of imagine Outkast, Andre 3000 especially. It's hard to imagine them sort of taking the step of also embracing an outsider status without De La Soul. You could think of folks like Missy Elliott, you know, who also sort of comes in from, you know, embraces an outsider status, but in terms of, you know, expressing and articulating a different vision of black femininity. But then if we bringing it up to the, you know, the 2010s, you have folks like Tyler, the creator, Earl Sweatshirt, rest of Odd Future, they're doing something similar, you know, at least in terms of, you know, their aesthetics in the type of music that they're producing. And even with Tyler, you know, you have an artist who is evolving and embracing this evolution, you know, embracing, you know, putting out different albums, you know, every time, you know, he releases something, which is something that De La Soul did.
- [19:15]
Michael Stout
Right? And this.
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Austin McCoy
That's.
- [19:16]
Michael Stout
I mean, just the way that you describe that. This is. I try not to be too bold about this, but this is what historians bring to the table. You've just set out, like a genealogy of the black nerd as an identity, you know, And I think that that's one of the. That's one of the benefits of the book. That's one of the good things that we get from the historian's perspective. And so just want to kind of, like, note that as a thing that's valuable, important about it.
- [19:40]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
- [19:42]
Michael Stout
Now, talking again about the writing, I wanted to ask about the structure of the book. I think that there's a structure, but I'm not sure if I'm. If I'm reading it in the same way that you would. So how. What. How would you describe the structure? How did you decide on it? Those kinds of. Did the albums drive the chapter divisions? Was it the personal anecdotes? Was it the social context? I mean, was it all of them? How did that work?
- [20:08]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, I mean, so now I'll be curious about, you know, your reading of it. And at first, when I set out to plan the book one, I thought it was going to be a shorter book. And I thought that I was going to write thematic chapters, like chapters about black masculinity, chapters about what happens in 1996, the sort of battle between gangster commercial rap and, quote, underground rap. And then, of course, sort of move into the 2010s and talk about the emergence of streaming and sort of the ways in which Music, you know, music distribution and consumption had changed and how that affected De La Soul. But then as I started really, you know, digging into the book, it was okay, actually, you know, I can still, like, talk about these themes, but probably going chronologically makes the most sense in terms of the albums, right? I mean, so, like, and also, you know, I also thought about, okay, so what happens if I were to produce a documentary about De La Soul, right? I mean, like, what are going to be the most important parts of their career? And for me, obviously, it's the first four albums, right? It means three High Rising, De La Soul Is Dead, Blue Mind State and Stakes Is High. And I think if you're introducing De La Soul to folks who might have minimal knowledge of them or. Or even hip hop culture, it just made the most sense to say, okay, I'm going to, at the very least for the first four chapters, sort of talk about or place the production of those albums in historical context, talk about aspects of my life that sort of fit into these chapters, and then for the last couple chapters, try to tackle the back half of their career. Which means, obviously not sort of paying special attention to each and every album in the same way as the first four chapters. But I also think that I was able to sort of bring out a lot of the historical context of the 2000s and 2010s and sort of be able to sort of place De La Soul in relationship to 9, 11. What happened? The emergence of the ipod, right? I mean, like, streaming, you know, the emergence of streaming, you know, what does it. What did it mean for De La Soul to sort of be closer to the margins of rap music than they were in the 1990s, you know, so, like, yeah, I was able to sort of do different things in the last two chapters, whereas the first four, yeah, it was definitely, you know, about, you know, okay, this is the reason why, you know, their fans really, you know, sort of place them on a pedestal.
- [23:05]
Michael Stout
Yeah, that was the way I understood it. But as I was reading, I was clear that, like, the. The first four had. Were like chapter and album. And then toward the end, I was. I was kind of expecting that. And I kept being like, wait, how many albums are we covering? So it was a little, which is not a criticism at all. It was just my way of thinking, like, okay, I'm trying to make my way through this. It's also funny that you mentioned that you wanted to do it thematically, because I feel like that was a thing that I went, especially when I was writing my dissertation. I was really into like, creative nonfiction and stuff. And then the feedback that I would always get would be like, can we do this chronologically, please?
- [23:40]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I just feel like, you know, you had the thematic approach, you know, is amazing, you know, like, and you can get a lot out of it. But then, yeah, if you're, if you're writing for a general audience, they're just going to want to know, like, in some ways about, you know, well, why are they important? Well, it's these albums that. That's what makes them important. So why don't you talk about those?
- [24:02]
Michael Stout
Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. Now, some more questions about, like, the bringing your. Your experience as a historian in. You mentioned several times the Source as. As a primary source in the history of hip hop. So can you talk a little bit more about, you know, the value of the source, maybe also XXL and other, you know, like, what are the primary sources that you're using to. To think through this. This history?
- [24:28]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, I mean, so, no, I think growing up, you know, especially coming of age in the 1990s, you know, this was a time when, you know, rap, it was sort of the height of the rap magazine. And growing up in Mansfield, Ohio, you know, I didn't have access to all of the magazines. Right. I mean, like, and I think that's the other piece of this, you know, that's interesting. It's like experiencing De La Soul, you know, from the middle of the country where it's like, you're not in New York City, where you have access to concerts, you have, you know, access to more magazines, to more media. And yeah, the Source magazine was the, you know, primary, you know, sort of, you know, vehicle for me to learn, me and my friends to learn about rap history, like, obviously what was going on at the time. But then also they would have these issues, you know, like their hundredth issue, where it's like they go back and, you know, they include, you know, the list of their top 100 albums since the 1980s and the top 100 singles. And, you know, they include timelines about the history of rap music and hip hop culture. So I was able to learn that by, you know, reading the Source magazine. And then, of course, you know, one of the aspects of the Source magazine that becomes, you know, very, you know, its most debated point, it becomes, I think it also sort of drives its popularity, is its ratings. You know, so they're five mic ratings and, you know, De La Soul is Dead got a five mic rating, you know, and that's what made Me go like, well, I want to listen to this first when I was going back and listening to all the De La Soul albums because, you know, it got five mics. And yeah, I think, you know, that's what sort of put. That's what made some people call the Source magazine like Raps Bible, you know, because, you know, they became the sort of most important, you know, piece of criticism in rap music. And then, of course, you know, you have, you know, we. We see the emergence of Vibe, you know, Vibe magazine in the mid-1990s, as well as XS XXL towards the end of the 1990s, and not DE La Soul. But the Source begins this sort of decline because, you know, one of the founders, David Mays, you know, sort of, you know, basically goes into a partnership with a. With Ray Benzino, you know, a rapper from Boston. And that sort of causes, you know, sort of ethical, you know, questions, concerns, you know, controversies within the magazine. And they're, you know, so there's like a lot of editorial turnover, especially in response to a rather high rating that the Source gave one of Benzino's rap groups. Right. I mean, so, like, that sort of, like that is what sort of made all of us go, well, maybe the Source isn't as reputable anymore as it was. Right? I mean, so. But no, like, I think just growing up and yeah, I could watch, you know, YoMTV Raps, BET's Rap City, and sort of get information there, but we didn't have the Internet, you know, or most of us didn't have the Internet. We didn't have, you know, Google wasn't what, like it is, you know, today or 10 years ago. I mean, today we might say it's worse because of AI, but, you know, it wasn't what it was like 10 or 15 years ago. So, yeah, all we had was listening to the music, reading the Source in XXL and Vibe, if we could, you know, forward, you know, like, I could really only afford the Source magazine. So that's the one I got the most. And then, you know, you might get bits and clip, like bits and pieces, you know, from the artists themselves on Rap City and YOMTV Rap. So, yeah, we were dealing with a scarcity of sources, unlike if you were to sort of grow up now being a music fan and you can listen to all kinds of music. There are more books out. You can sort of go back in some cases and look at some of the archives of some of these magazines. But no, I kept all my Source magazines, which was amazing. And it was just like, okay, this is the first place I'm going, right? I mean, like, when it was time to start doing primary source research, that was one of the first places I started to go. Trying to look at the reviews of their albums, their interviews, trying to soak up more of what rap publications were focusing on in the 1990s. And then from there, I obviously got a Rolling Stone subscription. So then I can sort of look at those archives, you know, checked out, you know, editions of Vibe magazine from, you know, the college library here and, you know, and yeah, did a lot of, you know, watching of interviews, you know, you know, of the group, which is. Yeah, another thing that's amazing that, you know, I could, you know, either go back and watch clips of the. Of the 1996 Rhapsody interview about them talking about stakes as high or even their most recent interviews. So, yeah, like, I wasn't hurting for sources and, no, this was, like, a reason for, like, if there's something that you're in love with, you know, especially culturally and you have hard copies of, you know, you will not regret keeping them.
- [29:36]
Michael Stout
Refreshing Wild Cherry Cola meets Smooth Cream,
- [29:42]
Austin McCoy
the treat you deserve.
- [29:46]
Michael Stout
Pepsi Wild Cherry and Cream. Treat yourself.
- [29:51]
Austin McCoy
The world moves fast. Your workday even faster. Pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create, and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn more@Microsoft.com M365 Copilot that is very helpful to know.
- [30:22]
Michael Stout
That's good to know. Well, so there's sources and then there's interpreting sources. And I wanted to return to your training as a historian. I was struck by the inclusion of scholars like Robin Kelly and James Scott, both of whom I've also been influential on me. So how do you bring that into the conversation? Like, what is, what's what? How does the. How do those scholars, like, add to this discussion that we're having?
- [30:49]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, I think this was one of my favorite parts of writing. Right? I mean, like, so, of course, like, I'm, you know, incorporating, you know, music critics like Greg Tate, you know, who passed away a few years ago, and I'm incorporating, you know, sort of, you know, other, you know, rap and music critics into the work. But then, yeah, like, Robin Kelly's understanding of, you know, Robin Kelly's and James Scott's understandings of infra politics. Right. This idea of sort of the politics of the everyday, everyday resistance and, you know, being able to sort of think about, you know, de La Souls, you know, music through that frame. In terms of, you know, songs like Bitties in the BK Lounge, where it's just like, you know, they're talking, you know, it's a. It's a song about working in Burger King. Right. It's a song about work and the things. The small things that, you know, workers do to either, you know, assert their own sort of dignity, you know, or to even just like, you know, engage in hijinks. Right, right. I mean, and, of course, doing all these, you know, engaging in these activities at work, you know, you're not supposed to be doing that. Right. You're supposed to be, you know, a model employee. The customer's always right. And no, you have pasta news. Getting into an argument with a woman about class, basically. Right. You know, and so I think my, you know, so, yeah, my scholarly training, you know, sort of allowed me to sort of detect that. But then also, you know, scholars like, you know, Kelly Scott, you know, Nelson. Nelson Lichtenstein, you know, Kate Jewell, like, they all sort also, like, helped, you know, sort of. They helped provide models for understanding what was taking place, especially in the 1990s.
- [32:42]
Michael Stout
Right, right. That makes a lot of sense. Now, you're also writing as a fan, right? And I'm thinking in particular of the lists at the end of the book that you include. Could you talk a little bit more about, I don't know, like, what the. Including all of those things. What was, you know, like, what was it like to write, you know, as a fan in a way? Like, how did that influence the process as well?
- [33:04]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, that. That's also. That was also very fun. You know, I mean, like, they were. I think the list in the back, you know, were ways to sort of really assert, like, how I felt about certain, you know, certain parts of their catalog in ways that wouldn't have fit within the story in some ways. So I include sort of my ranking at that time of all the stress at that time.
- [33:32]
Michael Stout
Right.
- [33:32]
Austin McCoy
I mean, and the other piece of this, too, is no, like, list making. I think, in popular culture, especially in the Internet, obviously, there's always been a big deal, the sort of listed phenomenon. But in rap music, I believe it was, like, either in the late 90s or the early 2000s, you know, this book called Ego Trips, you know, Book of Rap Lists came out. And, you know, again, one of the few books I bought, you know, like, as a Teenager. And it was amazing. Like, the amount, like, it was. It's just all lists and it's like, lists and it's like the most. It could be, like, random things. It could be, you know, the, you know, it could go. It range from, like, the best, you know, rap disses of all time to, you know, songs that are about this particular random topic. Right. I mean, so, you know, like, that also sort of inspired that part of the book. I thought it would add something, you know, different to it. And of course, it speaks to, I think, people's, you know, you know, sort of reliance on playlists as well, you know, so, like, you know, trying to sort of like, yeah, like, here's a, you know, here's a short list of their songs about work. Here's a short list about their songs about, you know, romance. Is there a short list about songs about politics? It sort of, in a way, you know, recontextualizes De La Soul and also points to the. To the myriad of ways that they spoke to various issues. So, yeah, like, that was fun. But then also, like, the list where it's like, if you want to understand, you know, stakes is high, you should listen to Marvin Gaye's what's Going on and, you know, you should listen to, like, these groups as well. So. No, that was very fun. I put it at the end, didn't know if the publisher was going to go with it. And they ran and they went with it and I was like, amazing.
- [35:16]
Michael Stout
Right? Yeah, that's great. Well, it has. There's two things that are related to this which are interesting. One is that you end up getting the thematic. In some ways, you get the thematic thing that you wanted anyway through the lists. Like, in a quiet way, there's that going on. And there's also a conversation about, like, algorithms and, like, the creation of lists that's, like, automated in a way. Can you talk? I mean, is this interesting? Is there anything there for you, for us to talk about?
- [35:43]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, no, I mean, I think you're right. I mean, this is something that I had a conversation with my Hip Hop history class last semester, where we get towards the end of the class and we're talking about Spotify, and I'm talking about the importance of owning as much of the media that you consume as you possibly can. And, yeah, like, Spotify is trying to, you know, sort of, you know, automate even the playlist. And they're not special in this regard. I mean, like, if you listen to an album on Apple Music and, you know, you get to the next song after the album ends. Right. I mean, it's a. It's a song that's based upon the album that you listen to. Right. And it just keeps going. And Pandora has always sort of operated this way. Right. I mean, so, you know, there. It's like, it, like, I think that part of the book and some of these conversations raise questions about, you know, the, you know, not only. Not just the convenience of that, but also what is lost when, you know, people are not sort of, you know, curating, you know, their own listening, you know, like. I mean, because, yeah, like in the 90s and 2000s, you know, one of the coolest gifts you could receive was a mixtape or a mix cd. And for some people, some people's relationships started, romantic relationships started based upon a mixtape or mix cd. And people might still make playlists for each other now, but it's like, yeah, if we just seed that to the algorithm into machines, then we miss another important part of being creative within popular culture. I think list making. Creating these mixes is a way for a lot of people to be. To express themselves and to be creative. And, yeah, that could just go by the wayside if we just are going to rely on an algorithm to do this work.
- [37:39]
Michael Stout
Right. Well, I also like the way that you framed it as an act of creativity that you engage in, because I have a tendency to. I'm nervous about making those arguments because I don't want to sound nostalgic about my own past, but to reframe it as a creative act that expresses yourself is. I think that's a valuable way to put it. That's. That's interesting.
- [38:02]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, I. And I. And I think that's why people. And I think that's why people do it. Right. I mean, like, it's just outlet. It's a creative outlet.
- [38:08]
Michael Stout
Yeah, no, exactly. Right. It's like, I love you and I like this song and I would like you to like this song.
- [38:14]
Austin McCoy
Exactly, exactly.
- [38:16]
Michael Stout
I wanted to ask a couple of questions. I have a couple more questions about various things, but I wanted to ask about a little bit more, if I could, about the writing process you mentioned. When we were talking about sources, you mentioned processing sources. I wanted to ask what's involved in that because I. Is this. When you say that, are you referencing, like, Zotero and other things? Like, what do you mean when you say process sources?
- [38:39]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, I mean, so, you know, on one level, I mean, the sort of actual reading and interpreting of sources, you know, I think in terms of software, I think I use Scrivener. But, like, you know, to me, like, these software, like, the software, you know, is useful in that it helps you organize sources. Right. I mean, so, like, which, you know, it's just a different platform because there are people who, you know, my dissertation, slash, book, a lot of that. I didn't use any program. You know, it's just like I'm putting stuff into folders. I have, you know, notes spread across, you know, different, you know, platforms, whether it's Microsoft Word or EndNote, you know, and this was like, well, let me just try sort of putting everything into one place and being able to sort of, you know, have access to what I was thinking about while I was reading these sources at a particular time. So, yeah, like, I mean, part of it is the sort of, you know, how we think about, you know, interpreting and reading sources generally, where it's just like, no, we sort of, you know, might catalog our sources. You know, like, uh, you know, I, I, I probably did a little less of that, you know, as opposed to just, I'm just reading through everything, taking notes on everything, and it's just all in one program.
- [39:53]
Michael Stout
That makes sense. That makes sense. Would you say that your process got more streamlined writing this book than you? Because in some ways, the dissertation is like the first big piece of writing that people do, and it involves a lot of pain.
- [40:06]
Austin McCoy
Exactly.
- [40:06]
Michael Stout
It got, did it get more refined?
- [40:08]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. This process was more streamlined, I think. Scrivener, I think, in some ways, help with that. But then also just the experience of trying to take on a dissertation, you obviously are learning lessons from that. Whether it is trying to keep your footnotes, trying to keep all your citation information for each source readily available. So then when it's time to go do the endnotes and the footnotes, you can do that. But then also being able to sort of categorize particular types of primary sources and sort of, then sort of placing my notes about these primary sources into documents for each chapter.
- [40:56]
Michael Stout
Right.
- [40:56]
Austin McCoy
I mean, so, yeah, no. I mean, there were. It was. I did rationalize the process much more this time.
- [41:03]
Michael Stout
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I ask, did you get more. Did you get a lot of guidance about writing in graduate school? Because in my experience, most of the guidance I got in graduate school was about the research process and kind of, like, intellectually, how to think through, like, social history, for example, but there wasn't a ton about the writing itself. Did you, did you have a. What was your experience?
- [41:27]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, I mean, I think it was, I would say it leaned more towards the research process in terms of, yeah, obviously doing primary source analyses, thinking about historiography. And in terms of the writing piece, I think it was a lot more having to. It was more implicit in the sense of you're paying attention to the types of edits that professors and instructors and advisors were giving you. And then, of course, anytime that you've, you know, gone through the, you know, publishing process, you know, whether it's an academic article or an outside, you know, the academia article or things like that, I mean, so, I mean, I do, like there. I remember when I was at Michigan, Tyo Miles offered a. I think it was like a nonfiction, like, writing class. And I didn't take it. Biggest regret. Because it would have been amazing, right? I mean, like, because, yeah, it would be amazing to, you know, sort of, you know, be able to, you know, get that kind of training. But, yeah, that's, you know, unfortunately, you know, we don't, like, sort of training in our field doesn't sort of lean into, you know, what does it mean to write nonfiction?
- [42:46]
Michael Stout
Yeah, it's. It often it feels like it's something that you do in the dark by yourself and don't talk about. That's. That's the way I feel about the writing process in academia. I could go on about this all day. I wanted to ask a couple more things. One, just getting back to the book itself. Are we still living in a daisy age?
- [43:03]
Austin McCoy
I think so. I mean, I think if we sort of think about how, you know, so we take the 2010s, for instance, and they're in De La Soul's battles with Tommy Boy and Warner Brothers around their streaming rights. You know, in some ways, you know, on the one hand, it reflects this long history of, you know, record companies exploiting, you know, artists, especially black artists. Right. I mean, like, it goes back to, you know, Q tip saying, you know, record. You know, industry. Industry rule 4080. Record companies are shady. You know what I mean? So, like, this has sort of been a long history, even stretching before rap music. But I think in the 2000 and tens, you have a moment where you have other artists that are trying to find ways. Trying to find creative ways to reclaim the rights to their music. So obviously, you have Taylor Swift, if not one of the. If not the biggest pop artists in the world, who re records her albums as a way to get around the legalities of her past catalog. You know, I mean, so, like, you have stories like that, and De La Soul sort of anticipated some of this with their Battles with Warner Brothers and Tommy Boy Records around, you know, trying to get their music back on streaming. And then I think, you know, you know, hip hop and rap music, a lot more sort of aesthetically and stylistically diverse, you know, as it's ever been, you know, I mean, so, you know, whether it's talking like I was talking about Tyler, the creator, or just sort of, you know, thinking about the ways in which, you know, black nerdom, you know, sort of like became really big in the 2010s, whether it's through rap music, whether it is through, you know, sort of, you know, movies, you know, like, I mean, even like Black Panther, right? I mean, like, you know, you have a sort of diversification of the types of, you know, characters that black actors and actresses are playing on screen. Right. I mean, so, you know, you know, you had that piece as well. And then of course, just like with De La Soul's music, I mean, their previous, like their latest album, Cabin in the sky, great album. And just so much celebration of, you know, their music, you know, past and present, obviously their legacy, of course, you know, unfortunately, with, you know, David Jalakur's passing, you know, that sort of also sort of forced or encouraged people to assess, you know, their legacy as well. So, yeah, I would say we. We still are until. Until they're done.
- [45:35]
Michael Stout
All right, well, last question. What are you working on now?
- [45:38]
Austin McCoy
I mean, so I'm working on trying to turn, you know, like I'm. I turn. I submitted or at least I, I gave my book that's based upon my. Based upon my dissertation to the editor, you know, so sort of waiting on, you know, what that is going to be like. And that's, you know, a study of social movements in the Midwest since 1967. Sort of analyzing the ways in which radicals sort of moved from revolutionary politics into sort of more respectable or established politics. So going from protests and sort of having these revolutionary visions to running for city council in Detroit like Kenneth Cockrell Sr. Or sort of, you know, trying to build broad based coalitions to, you know, to, you know, to pass plant closing legislation in Ohio, you know, so that's what I'm focusing on now. But I would love to write another music cultural book really soon.
- [46:37]
Michael Stout
Great. Well, I'm excited for. I'm excited for all the ones to come. I can't wait to see what happens next. Well, it's been a pleasure doing, doing history with you, Austin. For our listeners living in a daisy age, the music, culture and world of De La Soul made is available now, wherever the finest books are sold. Austin, I thank you again for being on the show. Congratulations on the book.
- [46:57]
Austin McCoy
Yeah, no, thanks for having me. This was fun.