Podcast Summary: Australia’s National Indigenous Languages Survey

Podcast: New Books Network – Language on the Move
Episode Title: Australia’s National Indigenous Languages Survey
Date: October 28, 2025
Host: Alex Gray
Guest: Zoe Avery (Worrimi woman, Research Officer at Centre for Australian Languages, AIATSIS)

Overview

This episode delves into the upcoming fourth edition of Australia’s National Indigenous Languages Survey (NILS), a large-scale government and community-driven effort to assess the status, use, and vitality of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander languages across Australia. Host Alex Gray interviews Zoe Avery of AIATSIS, whose team pioneered extensive co-design with Indigenous communities for this iteration. The conversation explores the survey’s aims, innovations in methodology, inclusivity, community priorities, the nuanced definition of language strength, and principles of Indigenous data sovereignty.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is the National Indigenous Languages Survey?

• Purpose: Documents the status and use of Indigenous languages; informs government policy and community efforts in language revitalisation and support.
  • "The data is really important because it can be used by the government to develop appropriate language revitalisation programs or understand the areas that require the most support, but it can also be used by communities, which is really important as well." — Zoe Avery [03:33]
• History:
  • First survey in 2005; fourth survey pending release (NILS 4).
  • NILS 4 is directly tasked with measuring Australia’s ‘Closing the Gap’ Target 16 (increase in language strength by 2031).

2. Co-Design with Indigenous Communities

• Process:
  • 16 co-design workshops with approximately 150 stakeholders (including 107 Indigenous participants).
  • Diversity of input: elders, teachers, interpreters, language workers, signers, policy advocates.
  • Workshops facilitated by Yamagigu Consulting.
  • Both in-person (on-country) and online sessions for accessibility.
• Methodological Innovation:
  • Validation workshops ensured feedback was actioned.
  • "We weren't just doing it for the sake of ticking a box to say, yes, we've had Indigenous engagement, but we were actually really wanting to have Indigenous input from the start and right until the end of the project." — Zoe Avery [08:26]
• Inclusivity:
  • Extended scope to underrecognized and underreported languages, including new languages, dialects, and sign languages.

3. Understanding and Measuring ‘Language Strength’

• Beyond Numbers:
  • Traditional metrics (number of speakers, intergenerational transmission) are insufficient.
• Community Worldviews Central:
  • Language strength redefined to include: community identity, relationship to country, ceremony, and self-determination.
  • Interview questions reflect community-driven definitions.
  • "We really wanted to make sure that we redefined language strength in the survey based off Indigenous worldviews ... we're also going to be asking questions on how many people understand the language ... and how and where it's used." — Zoe Avery [12:49]
• Practical Examples:
  • Questions on use in ceremony, storytelling, writing; not just home and education.
  • Enabled respondents to express the depth and breadth of language use.

4. Building Trust and Transparency into the Survey

• Reframed Survey Questions:
  • Use of phrases like "We heard that..." to directly reflect community voices and build trust.
  • Survey aims to show respect for each response and be accessible.
  • "We want people to trust a survey and understand that we respect each individual response ... making sure that the survey was phrased in accessible language and the questions were as consistent as possible." — Zoe Avery [15:54]

5. Policy-Relevant Insights: Support, Racism, and Flourishing Languages

• Community-Led Ideas:
  • Survey asks for direct input on preferred forms of support: funding, infrastructure, “spaces for languages”, even legislative changes.
  • Moves policy away from top-down, one-size-fits-all solutions.
• Addressing Racism:
  • New to this edition: Explicit, optional questions on the impact of racism and discrimination on language vitality.
  • Provides space for “truth telling” about suppression and ongoing challenges.
  • "It was important for us to kind of ask that question because in co-design it was clear that racism and discrimination are still massively impacting language revitalisation and strengthening efforts." — Zoe Avery [19:08]
• Celebrating Flourishing:
  • Positive focus: The survey documents not just loss but renewal, teaching, visibility, and pride in language use (e.g., at the Palima conference).
  • Key metrics: Visibility (signage, media) and growth (numbers, intergenerational use).
  • Respondents can articulate their own language goals, further supporting community-led agendas.
  • "A flourishing language ... can be put down to two things and that's visibility and growth of a language." — Zoe Avery [25:16]

6. Survey Rollout and Participation

• Timeline:
  • Finalizing ethics approval in October 2025; aiming for rollout in November 2025.
• Who Answers:
  • Aiming for at least one response per language community from a knowledgeable “language respondent” (elders, teachers, etc.).
  • Open to multiple responses per community to capture varied perspectives.

7. Reporting, Language Ecologies, and Data Principles

• Language Ecologies:
  • Building on NILS 3’s major innovation to contextualize language use with multilingualism and everyday practices—recognizing overlapping repertoires rather than discrete languages.
  • Data captured will reflect use in public, private, and institutional domains.
  • "A language doesn't exist within a bubble, it has contextual influences ... particularly when it comes to multilingualism and other languages that are incorporated into the community." — Zoe Avery [32:09]
• Data Sovereignty:
  • Data control lies with communities; consent-driven sharing.
  • Quantitative data for ‘Closing the Gap’ reporting is de-identified.
  • Communities can opt in/out of identifiable reporting, co-authored case studies, and will have access to their own data.
  • Guided by Myu Nairu Wingera data sovereignty principles.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the scale and inclusivity of the co-design process:
  • “We had so many different people from a variety of different language contexts participate ... the diversity of language experiences that were kind of showcased at these workshops was immense.” — Zoe Avery [07:41]
• On survey trust and transparency:
  • “We want language communities to also be able to use this data for their own self-determination and we want to try and break down these barriers for communities and reduce the burden as much as possible.” — Zoe Avery [15:53]
• On racism and truth-telling:
  • “We want to make sure that respondents ... have the opportunity to kind of participate in this truth telling ... but if respondents feel comfortable to answer this question, it does give communities the opportunity to share their stories about how their language has been impacted by racism.” — Zoe Avery [19:59]
• On celebration at the Palima conference:
  • “There was so much language and love and support in the room and everyone had a story to tell about how their language was flourishing.” — Zoe Avery [24:28]
• On data sovereignty:
  • “Communities fundamentally will own the data that they input into the survey ... Making sure that, yeah, community have ownership of their data and they can have access to it, are able to interpret it, analyze it ... from the beginning of co-design all the way up to the reporting.” — Zoe Avery [36:32, 39:03]

Important Segment Timestamps

• Intro, land acknowledgement & guest welcome — [01:22 - 02:23]
• What is NILS? Background & policy context — [02:29 - 04:00]
• Co-design process and stakeholder input — [03:04 - 10:10]
• Defining/measuring language strength — [11:18 - 14:30]
• Building trust & transparency in survey design — [15:02 - 16:59]
• Community-led support vs top-down policy — [16:59 - 18:17]
• Addressing the impact of racism — [18:17 - 20:46]
• Focus on flourishing languages — [23:52 - 27:56]
• Survey roll-out timeline & participation — [27:56 - 31:01]
• Reporting, language ecologies — [31:01 - 34:02]
• Data sovereignty and community ownership — [34:51 - 39:26]
• Closing remarks & future steps — [39:26 - 41:49]

Final Note

This episode offers an in-depth, candid look at a major national effort to empower, document, and celebrate the richness of Australia’s Indigenous languages through robust, community-driven research. From its collaborative design and nuanced questions to its commitment to data sovereignty, NILS 4 is set to become a cornerstone resource for language revitalisation, policy, and community aspiration.

For more information or to get involved:
AIATSIS: https://aiatsis.gov.au