Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Episode: Averill Earls, "Love in the Lav: A Social Biography of Same-Sex Desire in Ireland, 1922-1972"
Host: Aidan Beatty
Guest: Dr. Averill Earls
Date: September 10, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode of New Books in Irish Studies, host Aidan Beatty interviews historian Dr. Averill Earls about her new book, Love in the Lav: A Social Biography of Same-Sex Desire in Ireland, 1922-1972. The conversation delves into the hidden histories of queer men in mid-20th-century Ireland, the challenges of recovering this history from archival silences and state records, and how public perceptions—and the state’s repression—shaped the lives of those they sought to police. Earls discusses her research methodology, the intricacies of Irish state policing, comparative queer histories, and possibilities for future work on women, trans, and rural lives.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Challenging Myths of Irish Sexlessness

• Irish Denial of Queerness: The interview opens with discussion of the persistent myth that “there are no gay people in Ireland,” a fiction echoed through official and popular culture for generations.
  • [03:39] Earls describes the disbelief she faced when explaining her research, recalling a National Archives staff member’s reaction:

  "I said, I'm looking for men who had sex with men. And he just sort of gave me the biggest eyes I'd ever seen. And then he backed away slowly..." (Earls, 03:39–04:48)

• The Power of Public Perception: The interview touches on how the Irish state tried to construct and enforce the image of a “pure Catholic, sexless nation.”
  • The endurance of these perceptions profoundly shaped both public and private experiences for queer people.

2. The Archive as Both Evidence and Obstacle

• Using Court and Police Records: Earls’ main sources are legal documents—court and Garda (police) files—that simultaneously prove the existence of same-sex desire and reflect only partial, often coercive narratives.
  • [06:46]

  "They can only really tell us what they tell us, which is that there were men having sex with men in public spaces... That doesn't tell us much about the private experiences of men who had the means... to have intimate relationships." (Earls, 06:46–07:35)

• Emotion and Ambiguity in the Sources: Earls highlights how some men saw no harm in their actions, while others cited fear of job loss and family shame.
• Surveillance Spikes: The state’s enforcement waxed and waned, influenced by political leadership, policing resources, and public pressure.
  • [10:00]

  "I think it really comes down to shifts in the political landscape... These tense moments between the Guardi and the state and between the state and its people come through in these spiked moments of policing..." (Earls, 10:00–12:04)

• Limits of the Archive: Many records may simply be missing, and private, consensual relationships rarely left documentary traces.

3. Navigating Policing and Secrecy

• Queer Strategies: Despite surveillance, most same-sex desiring men evaded arrest. There was an underground network—using codes, meeting places, and community knowledge.
  • [16:48]

  "The court records themselves suggest that lots of men just evaded. ...This is a conversation that's happening between people who are ... using the right signs, wearing the right clothes, going to the right places, using the right language. And that that is a secret, hidden queer society in, particularly for men in Dublin." (Earls, 16:48–18:46)

• Urban vs. Rural Experience: City anonymity provided opportunity; rural settings were more surveilled by close-knit networks.

4. Comparing Irish Experience to Other Countries

• Global Parallels and Unique Paths: Surveillance of queer men occurred in the US, Canada, Britain—but Ireland both imported British legal traditions and doubled down after independence by fusing Catholic identity and sexual repression.
  • [19:07]

  "Those countries in some ways started the practice of surveillance of same sex desire men first... What's interesting about Ireland is ... the choices they made were not to abandon or excise the evidence of British law... it was to double down..." (Earls, 19:07–22:07)

5. Class, Respectability, and Public Figures

• Contrasting Lives and Outcomes: Earls discusses two prominent figures:
  • Ronald Brown: Publicly shamed and forced from emigrant after scandal.
  • Micheál MacLiammóir and Hilton Edwards: Celebrated artists able to live together as partners for 50 years, their queerness ‘explained’ by their artistic respectability.
  • [22:46]

  "...there is this clear distinction for what it means to be queer and that's wrapped up in class and depending on your means and your ability to sort of walk that line..." (Earls, 22:46–27:34)

• Archival Breakthrough: Discovery of their personal letters provided rare, direct testimony of enduring love:
  • [27:18]

  "...so full of love and sweetness and like the pitter patter of normal fights... that was the breakthrough moment for me..." (Earls, 27:18–27:34)

6. The Limits of Historical Knowledge and Future Directions

• Scope of the Book: Focuses on Dublin men due to archival constraints.
• Speculative Futures: Earls makes educated guesses about lives beyond this—lesbian couples, rural and working-class realities, and the probable under-documentation of trans experience.
  • [28:20]

  "Depends on again, class. Class status is what matters for women... I think it was probably not too hard for a lot of women to just live together because of course there's marriage crisis, there's housing crises... likely a lot of lesbian women left because they could experience both social, familial, and economic freedom..." (Earls, 28:20–32:56)

• Hopes for Oral History and New Archives: Earls hopes her work prompts others to contribute family histories and unearth new materials.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On archival discovery and love:

  • “[Their letters] were just sitting in the National Library for decades and they're so full of love and sweetness… that was the breakthrough moment for me as like this project finally has some clear evidence of love.”
    (Averill Earls, 27:18)

• On Ireland’s cultural repression:

  • “It's so disingenuous, I think, from the state that they're pretending that Ireland is this pure Catholic, sexless nation. And they're trying to enforce that again sporadically through policing spikes.”
    (Averill Earls, 08:20)

• On hidden urban queer society:

  • “This is a conversation that's happening between people who are ... using the right signs, wearing the right clothes, going to the right places, using the right language. And that that is a secret, hidden queer society, particularly for men in Dublin.”
    (Averill Earls, 17:24)

• On research challenges:

  • “I imagine that many people go to the archive hoping to find something and then finding nothing. I was fortunate that there were at least leads and someone else had written that these existed. I just needed to go track them back down and dig a little deeper.”
    (Averill Earls, 14:14)

• On gaps in queer history and the need for collective memory:

  • “What I'm really hoping for out of this book is that the court record is not the end of this work... it just needs to be the start... to open up conversations... to invite people to say yes, okay, now we can acknowledge that Uncle Leroy or whatever was gay...”
    (Averill Earls, 26:23)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------| | 01:35 | Introduction of guest and book | | 02:54 | Challenging myths: public perception of queerness| | 06:16 | Method and challenges of using court records | | 10:00 | Policing and waxing/waning surveillance | | 12:32 | Archival research strategies | | 16:28 | How queer men navigated and evaded surveillance | | 19:07 | Comparative international context | | 22:07 | Sexuality, class, and respectability politics | | 27:31 | Revisiting archives, finding real love letters | | 28:20 | Speculating on lesbian, rural, and trans histories| | 32:56 | Future research and directions |

Final Thoughts

Dr. Earls and Aidan Beatty illuminate a hidden chapter of Irish history, demonstrating both the richness of erased queer lives and the challenges facing historians who seek to recover them. Love in the Lav doesn’t just expand the history of sexuality in Ireland—it sets down a marker for further research, collective memory, and community engagement. The conversation is both methodologically rigorous and empathetic, providing a glimpse not just of repression, but also of aspiration, love, and everyday resistance.

Recommended for anyone interested in Irish history, LGBTQ+ studies, archival research, or social history.