Beenash Jafri, "Settler Attachments and Asian Diasporic Film" (U Minnesota Press, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Beenash Jafri, "Settler Attachments and Asian Diasporic Film"
Host: Eileen
Guest: Professor Beenash Jafri (Gender, Sexuality, and Women’s Studies, UC Davis)
Air Date: December 23, 2025

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Main Theme

The episode explores Professor Beenash Jafri's book, "Settler Attachments and Asian Diasporic Film" (University of Minnesota Press, 2025). The book interrogates how Asian diasporas are attached to settler colonial ideals and the decolonial possibilities imagined through film and visual media. Situating her work at the intersection of film/media studies, diaspora/ethnic studies, Indigenous studies, and queer theory, Jafri pushes for nuanced critiques of race, diaspora, and indigeneity—challenging the simplistic coalitional identity of "people of color" and inviting scholars to reflect on attachment, relationality, and imaginative futures in both scholarship and activism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Motivations of the Book

• Professor Jafri’s upbringing in Toronto, particularly Scarborough—a multicultural, working-class immigrant neighborhood—deeply influenced her understanding of identity, race, and nationhood ([04:03-05:15]).
• The concept of "people of color," initially empowering, became complicated in activist/academic spaces when considering the distinct relationships Indigenous peoples have with the state compared to other racialized groups ([05:26-07:10]).
• Early activism and social movement work revealed the need to interrogate diasporic and Indigenous coalitions beyond multicultural rhetoric ([06:43-08:28]).
• Jafri’s shift from social movement sociology to film and cultural analysis provided tools to probe underlying desires, affects, and tensions shaping Asian/Indigenous relationships ([09:46-10:41]).
• Films and visual media, for Jafri, open speculative, affective, and sometimes uncomfortable spaces for examining settler attachments and decolonial possibilities ([11:35-15:29]).

Notable Quote:
"I was wanting to get to some of the underlying desires and anxieties and feelings and affects that were also framing these relationships between diasporic people and Indigenous peoples." — Professor Jafri [10:41]

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2. Why Film and How the Archive Was Curated

• Jafri underscores that social movements and artistic practices are deeply intertwined, as many filmmakers are themselves activists ([11:42-12:10]).
• Her research began with examining the "cowboy" figure as a symbol of settler nationhood and longing for belonging among non-white populations ([12:10-13:04]).
• The transition to experimental and independent films allowed Jafri to think about other kinds of speculative and affective relationalities, not just the dominant settler narrative ([13:58-15:58]).
• She curated her archive not to be exhaustive but to probe specific political questions, selecting works that exposed varied attachments and possibilities—e.g., films exploring the cowboy figure, and works by Shani Muthu, Vivek Shraya, Ali Kazmi, and Jin-me Yoon ([16:36-20:12]).

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3. Global Frameworks and Methodological Reflections

• Although grounded in North America, Jafri reflects on how settler colonialism as an analytic can travel to contexts like Palestine, Kashmir, or Taiwan, linking ongoing struggles for decolonization and Indigenous sovereignty ([22:03-25:56]).
• She cautions against seeking a universal method, instead emphasizing attention to place and context ([24:26-24:46]).

Notable Quote:
"Thinking about the specificities of place and of context I think are really important." — Professor Jafri [24:40]

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4. Chapter Deep Dives: Themes, Case Studies, and Methods

A. Chapter 1: The Asian Cowboy

• Jafri explores the appeal of the cowboy figure to diasporic subjects, its global circulation (e.g., the Indian film "Sholay" dubbed a "curry Western"), and its deep ties to settler nationhood ([26:37-27:59]).
• Critiques that diasporic claims to the cowboy often ignore the centrality of Indigenous erasure and reinforce settler structures ([29:24-32:06]).
• The melancholy of these films is less about exclusion from the national body than about lost or absent relations with Indigenous peoples ([30:45-31:37]).

Notable Quote:
"What is the cowboy also doing with respect to indigenous people? … If we're asking to be included in this vision of the cowboy, then, like, who is left out?" — Professor Jafri [29:23]

B. Relational Critique as Methodology

• Moving beyond absence/presence in representation, Jafri argues for centering indigeneity and exploring relational imaginaries—including how land and place are depicted ([32:55-35:11]).
• Affects and moods (longing, melancholy) become crucial diagnostics ([35:15-35:46]).

C. Chapter 2: Body and Land Impasse—Queer, Trans, BIPOC Artists

• Jafri discusses Shani Muthu and Vivek Shraya—queer South Asian diasporic artists—and how their works emerged in response to Canadian/Indigenous events (notably the 1990 "Oka Crisis") ([36:26-40:09]).
• Raises the "body and land impasse," where experiences of racialized violence are structured such that connection to Indigenous struggles for land is displaced, not out of ignorance but through structural constraints ([41:04-43:12]).
• On the term "BIPOC": Jafri traces its origins (potentially Toronto), viewing it as grassroots innovation to address hierarchy and specificity within "people of color" solidarity ([44:30-46:56]).

Notable Quote:
"It’s a grassroots invention ... trying to figure out more just or more ethical ways of being in relation with one another." — Professor Jafri [46:07]

D. Chapters 3 & 4: Friendship, Kinship, and Speculative Futures

• Chapter 3 centers on Ali Kazmi’s "Shooting Indians," examining friendship over decades as a form of deep decolonial relationality ([49:02-52:27]).
• Jafri draws on queer theory, privileging friendship and non-normative kin over biological/familial modes, and queries how deep, transformative bonds might model new solidarities ([53:24-54:59]).
• Examples from recent films, like "Scarborough" and "This Place", illustrate both the challenges and possibilities of representing non-romantic intimacy and cross-racial friendships ([55:31-59:30]).

Notable Quote:
"How do we get to the depth of friendship and its intensity…that isn’t just romantic? How do we talk about love in a way that isn’t a love song but is about, you know …" — Professor Jafri [58:07]

E. Coda: Toward Decolonial Sensibilities

• Jafri closes the book with Jin-me Yoon’s participatory performance, where sensory deprivation and artistic exercises facilitate new ways of feeling relationships to land, body, and difference ([60:00-62:59]).
• She calls for a move beyond the cerebral, analytical mode to “inhabit our bodies and our senses…differently,” engaging decolonial relationality affectively ([62:41-62:54]).

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5. Pedagogy and Teaching

• Jafri shares classroom strategies for engaging students in thinking collaboratively about their implication in systems of oppression, using exercises and art/media to provoke collective reflection ([64:01-66:41]).
• Emphasizes the power of film and art to stimulate affective modes of learning, break textual saturation, and open complexity ([66:17-66:52]).

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6. Current and Future Projects

• Co-editing a special Amerasia issue on Asian settler colonial analytics, reflecting on developments 25 years after Hananike Trask’s foundational interventions ([67:17-68:20]).
• Beginning research on "conservatism" in relation to ongoing political dynamics ([68:24-68:36]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the limits of "representation only" frameworks:
  "If you're thinking about representation…then the most you can say is like, somebody's not there. You know, something's not there. But I wanted to think about…not just about who's there and how they represented it, how they represented, and who's not there, but also about what else is happening." — Professor Jafri [33:31]

• On relationality and solidarity:
  “How do we talk about white supremacy and … relationships across different communities without also conflating struggles and while also recognizing … dynamics that also are deep seated and structural…impact[ing] the way that we relate to one another.” — Professor Jafri [46:18-46:56]

• On imagining futures:
  "What might it feel like to live in a different type of world that is attuned to decolonial relationships?" — Professor Jafri [61:27]

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Key Timestamps

• 00:00-01:28 — Sponsor messages (skipped)
• 01:32-03:21 — Professor Jafri's academic background and journey
• 03:21-10:41 — Origins/motivations for the book; shift to film/media
• 11:35-15:29 — Why film? Interconnections of art and activism
• 16:36-20:25 — Archive-building; case selection rationale
• 22:03-25:56 — Methodology’s global relevance and limitations
• 26:37-32:06 — Asian cowboy: representation, absences, and national belonging
• 32:55-35:46 — Relational methodology, centering indigeneity
• 36:26-46:56 — Chapter 2: QT BIPOC artists, Oka Crisis, body/land impasse, terminology critique
• 49:02-54:59 — Friendship as radical potential, queer kinship models
• 55:31-59:30 — Representing friendship & love beyond romance in film
• 60:00-62:59 — Imaginative/speculative closure: feeling into decolonial possibility
• 64:01-66:41 — Pedagogical strategies; moving beyond cerebral analysis
• 67:17-68:36 — Current & upcoming projects

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Engaging Takeaways for New Listeners

• Jafri’s work challenges easy solidarity frameworks, instead insisting on reckoning with the persistent attachments to settler colonialism present in diasporic life and art.
• Film and art are not just representations but portals—they help us access the affective, speculative, and sometimes ugly attachments that pure analysis or activism may bypass.
• Relational critique matters: examining how relationships to Indigenous peoples and land are structured, erased, or yearned for unveils both the limits and the creative potential of coalition politics.
• Solidarity is not a given, nor inherently radical—it requires ongoing labor, affective work, and imaginative leaps. Friendship, kinship, and artistic collaboration offer alternative, regenerative pathways.
• For educators: Jafri models an engaged, participatory pedagogy that leverages media and collective exercises to unpack difficult questions and structural complicities.
• Invitation: The episode, like the book, closes with an invitation—not for simple solutions, but for readers/listeners to imagine, feel, and sense relationships and futures differently.

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Summary prepared by Podcast Summarizer AI
Original language and tone maintained for accessibility to those who haven’t listened.

Transcript

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[New Books Network Intro & Wayfair Sponsor]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Eileen (Host)]

Hello everyone, and welcome to the New Books Network. I'm your host, Eileen. Today I'm so glad to be joined by Professor Binash Jeffrey to talk about her new book, Settler Attachments, An Asian Diasporic Film published by the University of Minnesota Press earlier this year. So this book offers a powerful and truly interdisciplinary intervention into how Asian diasporas are attached to to both the settler colonial ideals and the decolonial possibilities imagined through film and visual media. Drawing from film media studies, diaspora studies, critical ethnic studies, Indigenous studies, and queer theories, this book addresses the complexities of Asian indigenous relationality and asks film scholars particularly to approach their research subjects with close attention to the entanglements of race, diaspora, and indigeneity. So, without further ado, let's get the conversation started. Hi Vines, thanks so much for being here. I'm really excited to finally have you on the show.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Thank you for having me.

[Eileen (Host)]

Of course. So, to start off, could you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Sure. So, I am an Associate professor of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Gender, sexuality and Women's Studies at UC Davis.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And I've also taught.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

My previous position was in Film studies. I've Also taught in crime and justice studies, American studies.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I've been all over the place.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And my PhD was also in gender, feminist and women's studies from York University in Toronto. And this is my first book.

[Eileen (Host)]

Great. Congratulations on such a milestone. So I'm wondering how this book came into being. You know, you've been transitioning in different disciplinaries, different departments. And so how did that shape this book and what truly motivated you from the very beginning, either personally or intellectually, to write such a book about Indigenous. The Indigenous and the diaspora?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah, so I'd say the seeds for this book were planted many years ago.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

In Toronto, which is where I grew up.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And as a young person coming to.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Understand race and whiteness and thinking about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

More, thinking about Canadian nationhood in more.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Complicated ways and thinking about like, identity.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And belonging and all of those things, I became initially really excited and motivated.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

By the concept of people of color and the kind of idea of a kind of coalitional identity and the possibilities that that opened up.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And I also, I also grew up, you know, for what I grew up in, you know, Toronto. Toronto, all of Toronto is, you know.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Super multicultural, multiracial.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And all of that. And I also grew up in a part of Toronto, Scarborough that's especially like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

It's, it's.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

It's a very immigrant, working class.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Multi ethnic, kind of large neighborhood and the kinds of. But also a place like a place with a lot of, you know, interesting.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Kinds of relationships and also a lot.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Of tensions that also, you know, as.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like, as a high school student, we would see those falling apart, like those tensions and kind of relationships also kind of falling apart all the time. And the idea of official multiculturalism, which is the kind of dominant official kind of framework in Canada where we see that falling apart all the time.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so because of that, people of color was.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

That idea was super exciting to me.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

But also, you know, coming like being involved in like anti racism organizing and activism, like as a college student, other students and also professors, like native students.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Anti racist feminist professors, various people were.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Kind of also then pointing out to me that there's different relationships to think.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

About with respect to Indigenous peoples and their relationship to the Canadian state.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so that complicated the idea of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

People of color and the kind of idea of the possibilities of that opening up also then were kind of kind of put into question for me.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so that was a really early starting point.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Thinking about, like, so what did it mean? What would it mean to do like, anti racism organizing when, like, you know, when this idea of people of color also doesn't quite hold when there's these different types of histories and political context to think about with respect to Indigenous and non Indigenous people.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so a lot of it was like the project was initially formed through.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

The ways that race gets talked about in Canada, which is very much.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Again through like multiculturalism.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

There's way, like there's the, the Indian.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Act in Canada.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Legally defines the relationship of Indigenous peoples to the state.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And those are also really different than.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Some of the ways that the conversations and race happen in the US So.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

My attachment to people of color kind of came about through that context of race in Canada and then coming to the US and there's another kind of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Reckoning with the ways in which.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

That.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Those conversations happen in different types of ways also.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so while I started out thinking more kind of in this broad people.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Of color and settler colonialism was kind of like the broad kind of framing I was starting with, it later shifted to thinking more about Asian diaspora.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

My MA thesis was so, for example, my MA thesis was about anti racism.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Coalitions in organizing between people of color, anti racism organizations and Indigenous groups and organizations.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so I was initially thinking about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

This project from a more social movement and sociological kind of frame. And I, my background was sort of more as a social science background.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so and that was when I started my PhD. That was where I was coming from.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And I was initially going to be like doing a kind of an extended version of that, you know, thinking about different types of organizations or work, like the problems and possibilities of working coalition.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And then what I, as I began to read more and do more of the work, I found that there were questions that I was trying to find.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

The answer to that I couldn't. That the turning to social movements like, wasn't providing the kinds of answers I wanted.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so I realized that I needed to turn to, you know, to film, to film, to cultural social media as.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

A way, as a different kind of entry point to thinking about those questions.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so I kind of had to do a lot of. I sort of had to train myself into learning like a whole different set.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Of methods as well, you know, for thinking about film and visual culture, which.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Has also been an interesting journey. But I found that, you know, I was wanting to get to some of the underlying desires and anxieties and feelings and affects that were also framing these.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Relationships between diasporic people and Indigenous peoples. So that's one version of some of my starting points.

[Eileen (Host)]

I think we have a lot to discuss. As a film scholar myself, I'm really curious why you found that film or visual media is the most intriguing subject for you or form of expression, if I can say that. And also I feel in your book, in my reading, the cases you talk about, I feel like the artistic side, artistic practices are not that separate from the activist or social movements side. So I would like to. To hear more from you on that.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah, it was. I mean, it was really interesting to see how. Yeah, I think you're exactly right that.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

They can't be so easily separated. And one of the things that kind of. I kept coming back to was the ways in which these filmmakers are also a part of different social movements and conversations.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

But, yeah, I think that. And I guess so. I'll also say that my dissertation was.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Actually very different from the book, and it was focused on the figure of the cowboy. And I was looking at black and Asian filmmakers engaging with the cowboy.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so. And I was wanting, you know, thinking. Wanting to think about how, you know.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

What does, like, what does a cowboy symbolize? How does that symbolism get worked and reworked? What are, you know, like, what are different types of diasporic investments in that symbolism and also what are, like, the ways that it gets, you know, critiqued and challenged?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So. So yeah, it was an. It was a way to. To get to, you know, to.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

To get to attachment really, like, to.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Get to the, like, desires or attached.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like, longing to belong within settler contexts.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Because the, you know, the cowboy to me also is very much about, like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Symbolizing American nationhood, but also as a kind of settler imaginary more broadly, and also a relationship to land and kind of mastery over land.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And whatnot. So I started out with a cowboy. And then I also kind of. I felt like also that the cowboy, it was a starting point, but also I didn't want it to be the end point. And so that's how I ended up.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Then also turning to different types of film, like experiment, like experimental documentary and other types of experimental film and independent film. Because I was also then interested in thinking about the other types of imaginaries that. That these artists were thinking about and were offering to us.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

But I think I found that looking to. There's a kind of imaginative.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

There's imaginative possibilities are opened up through.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Film that, for example.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Talking to somebody involved in. In organizing it wasn't opening up for me in the same kind of way.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

There was something like a little bit.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

More speculative or beyond what we see on the ground. I think that's what I was wanting to get to. And that's why I found the film and visual media really appealing and also getting to. So there's the imaginative, the speculative kind.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Of piece, but also the kind of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

The ugly side of things. You know, like the ways in which we like the investments in that persist.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

To.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Colonization, to those settler ideals that we don't. We want to kind of put behind us or that like those of us who are doing activist or organizing work, we don't always want to think about those attachments, but they're also there. And so film was, you know, the films are opening up a way to think about those things, to think about those, those things that persist even as we're doing this other type of work.

[Eileen (Host)]

Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I really like in your book, you phrase it, you phrase it like films as archives of the settler world. Yeah, I think that's really, that's really a catchy phrasing. And so for this book specifically, I'm wondering how you decided which films or artwork to include because you mentioned in the introduction chapter that this is not an overall all encompassing analysis of Asian diasporic film.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Yes.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

There wasn't a ready made archive for.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Me to turn to.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I mean, I guess you could say.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

There'S Asian diasporic film is. Is like the broad archive. But.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I did have to spend a.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Lot of time thinking about assembling, assembling, I guess curating a particular set of films that would open up these questions.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So I guess, I mean, the cowboy.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Was one kind of anchor, right? So that was. Became one chapter in the book. It was initially my dissertation. It became one chapter.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And then I think, I mean, some of it happened like the Ali Ghazmi's film Shooting Indians. It was also, you know, it was.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Also engaged in some ways in like in the figure of the cowboy. And that's like that the opening kind of scene of that film is also about the filmmaker like reflecting on these like cowboy and Indian figures he gets from us, like from a family friend.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So I think so partly it was that like the figure of the cowboy.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Kind of opened me up onto these other types of films.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And I mean, I think partly it was also I was thinking, I was approaching it by thinking about, you know, what are the relationships I want to think about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

So for example, in the second chapter.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I want to think about, well, how do we make sense of people who are many of us who again are.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Involved in social movements, who are, you.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Know, who are aware of indigeneity, of land issues, of decolonization and have like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

You know, have sharp analytical skills but how do we make sense of that then these attachments to coloniality that, that are still there, that are persisting.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so the films by Shani Muthu.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And Amiveksharya were really kind of excellent entry points for thinking about that.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And then I wanted to think then.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

About possibilities for thinking beyond how do we, you know, how do we think differently about these relationality, relationships? And that's what kind of brought me to Ali Ghazmi's film and then also to the two films that I look at in the last chapter as well as Jin Mae Yoon's artwork.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And I guess maybe, yeah, this is maybe why or I think it was.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

My investments in the political questions that brought me to the films rather than the other way around. Maybe.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

It was, you know, thinking about like, how do, where do we see.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

These different types of like, relationships and possibilities emerge and like, which, you know, which films speak to those contexts.

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[Eileen (Host)]

That's really interesting. And I'm sure we'll get deeper into those cases later on when we move to chapter by chapter. So I think a more broader question is, how do you see your argument or your analytical framework travel beyond North America? Because I feel like we've been mostly talking about the Canadian and American context, but for queer diaspora or Indigenous studies in other geopolitical contexts, where in many cases, decolonial struggles are still ongoing, how do you see your argument or methodology work?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

That's really interesting.

[Eileen (Host)]

And.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

I just recently wrapped up another project with. I was co editing a special issue.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Of Amerasia on Asian Southern colonialism.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And one of the things a special issue is doing is thinking about, you know, how does this kind of critique, how does it travel across different contexts, and in what ways is it also challenged in these different contexts?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I mean, I think I would be interested to see, you know, how people, scholars and activists working across different contexts.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

In what ways this work might be meaningful to them.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Because part of what I also do.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Across the chapters is think about where the filmmakers are coming from and the historical and political context that they're grounded in that also then give shape to the types of films and art that they make.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So in terms of methodology that might travel, it might be that those pieces of. It might be, you could say, transferable.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

In terms of thinking about that, I.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Don'T know that there's necessarily a.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like a universal sort of method that could be applied across different contexts.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

But, you know, thinking about the specificities.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Of place and of context I think are really important.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And then I think, I guess more.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Broadly, you know, thinking about settler colonialism offers a different way for thinking about colonial dynamics and the ways that, you.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Know, because for a long time.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Some.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Of the dominant frames for thinking about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Coloniality have been like sort of mid 20th century anti colonial, and then postcolonial scholarship. And some of the work on settler colonialism offers ways for thinking about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

The.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Ways these colonial dynamics persist or are kind of unfolding in ways that look different than those other types of contexts. Right. So, like what we see with Palestine, with Kashmir, Taiwan, we could think about these as indigenous struggles with settler colonialism as well. And so there's ways that we could think about those.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I think it offers some space for.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Reflecting on how those dynamics might play out in different spaces.

[Eileen (Host)]

Yeah, definitely. Great. So I think we can dive deeper into the chapters. So you've said that the first chapter actually came out from your PhD dissertation, right? Because it. It opens with the Asian cowboy figure. So I'm wondering, would you like to talk more about this Asian cowboy? Like, what does this figure review? Or what is it obscure?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah, so, yeah, so the cowboy was my entry point into the project in many ways. And it was actually. And it was learning about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

The way that the western had traveled across, Had appeal across very different contexts. So I was thinking about, you know.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

People in my family who were like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

My grandfather was really into Westerns, or I was talking to a professor who.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Had grown up in Morocco watching Jane, sorry, John Wayne. So, and then. And then, you know, I found out that one of the. The film Shole, an Indian film, when.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

It came out, was dubbed by some Western critics as. Or like Western critics as a curry.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Western because of the ways that it.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Also kind of engaged with the conventions of that genre.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So, yeah, so then. So that, I mean, so I just.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Kind of started asking questions from there about, well, what's so appealing? How is this getting reworked?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And, I mean, I think.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Part of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

The reason I also then kind of came back to North America was because.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

I wanted to think about this specific kind of set of colonial dynamics here. And so what does. What does the cowboy mean in this particular space?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And it seemed like what I kept.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Coming up against was the way that the cowboy really stood for national identity and belonging.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And just provide an opportunity for thinking about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Thinking about this longing to belong. And there's a lot of examples of critiques of the cowboy and the ways that the cowboy, for example, is coded as white or as kind of hegemonically masculine. But then I was interested in thinking.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

About, well, even in that kind of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Critique, what is left out. Right. So. And what's left out is often also, well, what is the cowboy also doing with respect to indigenous people?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So if, you know, if we're wanting to.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

If we're asking to be included in this vision of the cowboy, then, like, who is left out? And also what relationships are left out?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So I was thinking about, you know, like, you know, indigenous peoples and those.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Relationships are left out.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

But also the possibility for creating relationships.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Of solidarity and connection with indigenous peoples is also a kind of loss. And so in the two films that I look at in that chapter, Wild.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

West and Cowgirl, both of them are thinking about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like, a kind of melancholic relationship to the cowboy. And that imaginary but indigeneity is also left out or indigeneity or like, you know, Asian bodies are kind of substituting for indigeneity.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so what I argue in that chapter is that.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

The melancholy isn't just about like, not the loss of being included within a dominant kind of national frame, but also the loss of relationship to indigenous people. And that's kind of not there. It's kind of an absent presence in both of those films, which are also really.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I really like both those films.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

I also want to say that they're both really interesting and provocative films.

[State Farm Sponsor]

But.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And it was also really interesting to see that in a lot of the, like, a lot of the film and.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Art about cowboys that I came across.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

That for the most part, indigenous people.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Are missing from those.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And it's about like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

It's about like a substitution of like, you know, Asian people or kind of bodies of color more generally into this figure of the cowboy and a kind of erasure of like within erasure of indigeneity. And so, yeah, so in that chapter I talk about like, well, what does it like, what about these other types of relationships that get lost in the process?

[Eileen (Host)]

Interesting. And that. So your explanation really makes me think of, you know, this relational critique or relational methodology that you've been using throughout this book, because I feel it's you that intentionally and self reflexively that read the Asian indigenous relationship or relationality out of the films or the visual context. And I'm curious, so what does this relational method ask of the critique? And how can it be, you know, in your own words, regenerative?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah, so that was, I mean, yeah, so the, like, the absence of indigeneity.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

In a lot of these films, like, posed a really, I'd say, interesting problem for me. Right.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Like, how do we think about like, you know, and I guess I think.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Also that.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

That'S where I think representational.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Kinds of, like, think about representation was limited in that way. Because if you're thinking about representation.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Then.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

The most you can say is like, somebody's not there. You know, something's not there. But I wanted to think about, you know, not just about who's there and how they represented it, how they represented.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And who's not there, but also about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like, what else is happening.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So how is, you know, how are identities being imagined in relation to.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Whiteness or to settler nationhood? And what does that mean? And if we also understand settler nation to be in a relationship with indigeneity, then what does that all mean? Right.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So kind of coming. Yeah, so I did again, kind of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like prioritize that question. Right. Like, well, what? Like, if we center indigeneity, then what happens? And then how do we see this film that doesn't appear to be otherwise interested in indigeneity? Like, where do we then see it?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so that also kind of opened.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Up for me thinking about, well, how is land being depicted? How are relationships to place being depicted? And so there's other questions that were ways of opening up, thinking about indigeneity and thinking about colonization.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so that.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Yeah, beyond.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

In ways that kind of. I mean, I was still interested in.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Representation, but also in complicating some of that and then also thinking about feelings and affects. Right. So in the. In those two films, in the first chapter, thinking about the types of affects that are motivating the characters in these films and the kind of mood that they're conveying.

[Eileen (Host)]

And it all happens in this triangulation between indigeneity Asianness and white settler colonialism.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Yes. Yes.

[Eileen (Host)]

Great. And then in chapter two, it's still related to the first chapter, but you focus on two artists, Shani Muthu and Vivek Shwaya, that you just mentioned in your earlier conversation. So could you briefly introduce both artists a little bit and tell us why you decided to read their works alongside each other?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah, so. And I guess I'll say so. When I initially working on my dissertation.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

It was, you know, thinking about the figure of the cowboy and very much thinking.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I was, you know, located in Canada.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And thinking a lot about the United States.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And then I moved to the United States and curiously, my work. All of a sudden I started thinking about Canada and thinking about Toronto a lot more and a lot differently.

[Eileen (Host)]

So I think that's also a part of the diasporic dynamic. Like when you're elsewhere.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah. And all of a sudden I was like, wow, there's all this amazing stuff that has been made possible by the kind of specific.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

The specific kinds of dynamics of Toronto and the ways that there's this kind of collision of, you know, of colonization, racial capitalism, and also, like, diasporic indigenous possibility.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So, yeah. So Shani Muthu and Vivek Shreya are.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Both South Asian, queer, South Asian diasporic artists.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Who are. I mean, just. Yeah, their work is really rich and provocative, and they're both also. And they're also, you know, pretty deeply.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Rooted in and connected to various social movements.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so I think what was. And Shanimutu, like, the films that I look at by Shanimutu are from the 1990s, and they're speaking to this. There's a kind of moment in Canada in summer of 1990. There was this standoff between Mohawk communities.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And the Canadian government and the Canadian military that people refer to as the Oka crisis. And.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And, and that, and it was, it was a kind of, it was a, you know, over like many days of that summer. It was, you know, you know, people.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Are watching this on their television screens.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And it was this kind of moment of reckoning and realization, like for the.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Kind of broad public, including immigrant communities, who are all of a sudden, you.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Know, like seeing how the kinds of, you know, thinking about, you know, colonization.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Kind of unfolding and happening, still happening in this really tense, like, tense event, I guess you could say.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And that, I think, led to a.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Lot of diasporic art and activism that was really conscious of Indigenous sovereignty. And Shiny Mutu is one of the artists who kind of was part of that post 1990s movement. And then like, Vivek Shraya, like, like sometime later is also kind of coming out of that longer legacy.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so that chapter, what it, you know, I was wanting to think about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

You know, like, so what does it mean?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Like, you know, so what happens when.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

We are aware of Indigenous sovereignty? We know what's happening.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And we still.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Have some deep seated longing or attachment that continues to kind of reproduce itself, right. Or re. Emerge at different points.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so Shani Mutu's work was. Was one entry point.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And then Vivek Shaya's was also another entry point.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And one of the things that I noticed in looking at both of their.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Works was this kind of problematic that think about in terms of body and land that I call the body and land impasse.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So for example, and I'll say again, so, for example, Vivek Shreya in her.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Work talks about pretty explicitly about land acknowledgement. And she also talks about, in some of her poetry about the problematics of land acknowledgement, the limitations. Right. So she's someone who's pretty deeply aware, right?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So I wasn't so much interested in.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Those kinds of, you know, that type of analytic.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

But in thinking about like this, like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

What does it mean to think about the body and the kind of violence wrought on the body in relation to land? And that was a kind of a problematic, I'll say, like, which is not just about those two artists, but more broadly about diasporic subjectivity and identity that their work, I think, allowed me to ask questions about. So, like, so in Shiny Mutu's work or one of the films I look at there's this, like, there's this goddess who appears in the mountains, in the Rocky Mountains. Right. And then so one of the questions.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I was asking was, well, you know.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

What gets displaced in that process? Right.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And, and I wanted to also say like, I also wanted to frame it.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Not as like a problem of the artist, right. So not as a problem of the.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Artist not knowing better, but of a.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Kind of more structural kind of issue right around the ways that we understand ourselves and the ways that we think about like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

You know, think about racialized.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Violence or think, you know, you know, think about the ways that we experience forms of dehumanization. Right. Exclusion, xenophobia, et cetera. And the ways that those happen then kind of in a way that separate us from indigeneity and from indigenous sovereignty.

[Eileen (Host)]

That's really interesting. So you were saying this Asian diaspora and indigenous relationship is not straightforward solidarity and it's done. But they're actually more nuances and complexity, complexities or even we could say probably limitation in this artistic expression. And also when you talk about the body, land impasse. I was thinking the body, the so called body is actually quite diverse. You were using the phrasing cutie, queer, trans, bipoc. So would you like to talk more about that, about the body and this revised phrasing of people of color?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Right, yeah. And that's also interesting because when I was like many, many, many years ago when I was starting out, like bipoc.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Wasn'T a phrase in circulation, it was just poc, people of color.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And it's really, it's like in the.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Last like decade to decade and a half that this term bipoc, so black, indigenous and people of color has emerged.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And I think I, I, I have like, I think it possibly came out.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Of Toronto and that like it, I think when I back when X was.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Still Twitter and you could do a kind of a search on Twitter, like that's, I found the earliest uses of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Bipoc were coming out of Toronto.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So it's a modification of the term people of color.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And I think it's related to, you.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Know, Indigenous sovereignty is related to Black.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Lives Matter and like conversations around thinking about anti blackness and thinking about settler.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Colonialism or anti indigeneity and how like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Some of the limitations of the term people of color. And there's a lot of criticisms of it, including you know, like some, like even in mainstream publications like the New York Times, there was critique of critique.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Of bipoc in op ed. But I do what I like about the term is that it's a kind of grassroots invention.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Right.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And you know, I think there's like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Obviously very limited too in different types of ways, but I like that it came from communities trying to figure out.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

You know, more just or more ethical.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Ways of being in relation with one another. So how do we talk about white supremacy and how do we think about the connections and relationships across different communities without also conflating struggles and while also recognizing that there's also these dynamics that also are deep seated and structural and also impact the way that we relate to one another. So that's what I like about the term.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And yeah, so I identify Mutu and.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Shreya as, you know, as coming out of QT BIPOC communities and organizing.

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[Eileen (Host)]

I think that this grassroots invention or grassroots solidarity leads to further questions or chapter three and four, when you're more looking ahead for possibilities and something speculative, a speculative future. So in chapter three you turn to friendship as a side of radical potential. But you were also saying that friendship is not inherently radical or utopian, but it really takes work. So then where does the radicality come from? And what kinds of labor, be it intellectual, affective, emotional or physical, are required for either artists or activists at the grassroots?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah, so I was thinking about thinking about friendship through, through Ali Kazmi's film.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Shooting A Journey with Jeffrey Thomas, which.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Is this, like this, this film that takes, you know, about a couple decades.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

For Cosmi to complete.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And I think, yeah, so I really, what, I think what I really liked.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

About the film was the way that was its long, like its long time frame.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So both the, the film itself, it.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Starts in the early 80s and then it's not. He doesn't finish it until, like, the late. It's 1997, it comes out, and there's a kind of break in the. In. In the film where they stop late there. Like, he starts filming Jeffrey Thomas, and then he returns to him, like, many years later.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And then, since then, since the film has come out, Ghazni and Thomas have.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Appeared together, like, on many occasions, like, four screenings of the film. And so their friendship, it's documented in the film. And then it's kind of like they keep coming back to their friendship.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so I think the film got me thinking about, you know, thinking about, like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like how. How their friendship is, like, kind of holding together, like holding something together, I guess, like some kind of. Some kind of possibility together. And it's documented in the film, but also has this life beyond the film. So there's a kind of. There's a collaboration that happens between them in the film, and then they keep returning to that.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So. Yeah, and I think that was one of the, you know, like, beyond what's.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Depicted in the film, which is about, like, you know, Jeffrey Thomas's photographic practice, and he's.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Engaging with the work of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Edward Curtis and his, like, his portraits of Indigenous people.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

But I think the friendship piece was, in some ways.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And the kind of intimacy, like, between the filmmaker and, like, and his subject, Jeffrey Thomas, was in some ways more interesting to me.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Also as a kind of model for, you know, thinking about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Diasporic, Indigenous, like, relationships and, you know.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Thinking about, you know, like, different ways.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

To do, I guess you could say a different way to do solidarity. That's not just about, say, showing up at a rally, but also about developing this. Developing a deep bond and connection with somebody.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Which is also, I think, then also gets us to the ways in which systems of settler colonialism. Have also organized ways of organizing kinship.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And communities and, like, you know, the ways that people relate to one another.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So it also, you know, kind of gets.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Gets to that, like, that severance.

[Eileen (Host)]

Right. And I feel like this kinship or friendship is also so crucial for queer studies or queer theory. Right. So I'm wondering if you'd like to talk more about how you engage queer theory into your analysis of diasporic Indigenous relationship.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah. So, yeah. One of the things I found was.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

That in some of the conversations about Indigenous diaspora, a lot of times there's discussions about interracial relationships or, like, mixing or, you know, like, families.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And I liked thinking about, like, you.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Know, so beyond that kind of reproduction and that kind of, you know, family, like, that kind of, you know, Biological families. Like, what are other ways that we can build relationships with one another And.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And, you know, shooting Indians.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

It's not.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

You know, it's not. It's not documenting a.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like, LGBTQ relationships, but it's documenting a friendship, which I think, you know, often gets sort of sidelined or subsumed by other. Other types of, like, relations or, like, it often gets overshadowed by romantic relationships or by familial relationships. And so, yeah, so I did bring a kind of a queer lens in that way for thinking about what other types of relationships and connections are possible. Right. That kind of get us out of.

[Eileen (Host)]

The.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Kind of biological or familial mode of connecting.

[Eileen (Host)]

Can you give us one or two examples either from the films or artworks you use or from your observation of the social activism? Yeah. Activist spaces.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Well, I guess that would also be a good segue into the fourth chapter.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

And the two films there. So the film Scarborough, which is based on Catherine Hernandez Hernandez's book of the same name, is about children in Toronto.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

In Scarborough and the connections and relationships.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

That they have with each other. So that film is also about.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And it's again, like, one of. There's a native kid and a Filipino.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Kid and a white kid. And so there's also that kind of multiracial connection.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And the other film is VT 90s this place. And that film, it is a romance. But what's really interesting about the film is that in some of the interviews.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

The writers talk about how it wasn't initially envisioned as a romance. It was envisioned as a friendship between the two leads, which is portrayed by Mohawk actor Devere Jacobs and.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Priya Gans, who stammel. But what they found was that romance was like. I think there's a way in which friendship is, like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Romance becomes the way to symbolize connection and an intensity of a connection. And so that's sort of what happened in the film.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

That romance became a way of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Portraying the deep kind of connection that the two characters have for one another.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And it just.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

It was sort of. And I talk in that chapter about how it's.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

In a way also the two characters.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Are an avatar for the writers and their relationships with one another, potentially.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

But, yeah, so I think there's something which I think also raised, you know, the question for me about, like, you know, how do we. Like, how do we get to the.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Depth of friendship and its intensity in a way that's not, like, just romantic? Right. Like, how do we talk about love in a way that isn't a love song, but it. But it's also about, you know, so.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah, I think it's difficult to.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Or it's challenging, I'll say, to depict that closeness because also, I think sometimes as viewers, the romantic connection becomes a way to. Becomes like the finish.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Like climax.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Right.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And it's.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

I think friendship is a little bit more like. It kind of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

It's. There's not a. It's not like it doesn't end up in marriage. It doesn't end up in, like, there's.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Not a kind of finish to it. Right. It just kind of keeps on going. So. Yeah. Does that answer your question? Maybe that's really beautiful.

[Eileen (Host)]

Than just talking about romantic love. So as we wrap up, I'm wondering. So we've been talking a lot about the problematics and also friendship and something future oriented. So what. What kinds of world or future are you ultimately inviting readers to imagine after reading this book or throughout this book?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Well, I guess I'll come maybe to. So the coda of the book turns.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

To this performance art project that the artist Jin Mayoon.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Works on, which involves.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like, she has participants. She organizes workshops where participants entered into these sensory deprivation tanks.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

To kind of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Empty them, I guess.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And then after that, they participated in.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

These workshops like they were thinking about relationships and solidarity. And again, it was about like, you know, race and indigenity and diaspora.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And it was about, you know, like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

How do we feel? How might we feel or sense the world differently? You know, like, and how might we come to that differently if, like, we're.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Thinking, like, you know, feeling through, like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Through our sensory experience and not just through the kind of a cerebral headiness? And.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

So I think.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I end the book.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Off with a lot of questions or.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

An invitation to imagine what might it.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Feel like to live in a different type of world that is attuned to. Attuned to decolonial relationships. Right.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And I mean, I think this is also. I think I tend to. I'm analytical. Academia is a very cerebral place. You know.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

We'Re analyzing and thinking a.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Lot, but.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

There'S ways in which that strategy is limited because it kind of also gets us out of our bodies, I guess.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And I think what I really. And kind of coming back to, you.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Know, why film and art are important.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I think they open different ways to.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Imagine and also to imagine, to feel and to sense differently.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So I think my invitation is to.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

You know, like, you know, keeping in mind these goals of solidarity and of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Decolonization, of relationality, like, what might it.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Mean to kind of inhabit our bodies and our senses of ourselves and our relationships to land and to other people differently.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And I think that some of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

The film and art that I talk about, offer are sort of portals into, for thinking about, for modeling some of those possibilities and for opening up something hopefully different.

[Eileen (Host)]

Definitely. And I'm wondering, how would you convey this to your students? Because at different points in your book, you did bring up your teaching experience or your experience in your own classroom. And in this book, we did discuss a lot of complexities, tensions and stuff like that that cannot be easily resolved. So how. I think I'm asking a pedagogical question, like how you convey that in your classroom to undergrad students or how do you get them interested in those complexities?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I mean, so I've tried different things.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

I've experimented with different things in the classroom. So I do. And that's.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Sometimes I've drawn on my kind of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Background with popular education and different types of pedagogies.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so, I mean, there's one exercise I can think of where I asked students to come up with examples of how they were implicated in anti blackness.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

In settler colonialism.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

In. Yeah.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

In different forms of structural oppression. And I had them, you know, write that on sticky notes. And we posted it, like, at the front of the classroom. And then they looked at each other's examples.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so that was one. I mean, it was one way to get people sort of out of their comfort zones a little bit, and also a way to have them think a.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Bit more collaboratively and collectively, because then they could also see what up there their classmates wrote and.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

The ways that.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Like, the connections between things that they may have written and like, what their classmates may have come up with.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so I sometimes try experiment a bit with that, those types of things. And it's always an interesting challenge because.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

We'Re not used to engaging in the classroom in those types of ways.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

I do find that just like screening.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

A film or, you know, or, you know, playing some music or like any kind of. Or talking about a piece of art, often it opens up a lot like it also, I think it sort of.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

You know, it gets people's brains, like.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Moving in a different type of way.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

So I do like. I like those also just as ways.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

For getting to the complexity and difficult types of questions.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Especially just because sometimes.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

We'Re saturated with text and reading and so sometimes. So I do appreciate what, like, film and media opens up in those ways.

[Eileen (Host)]

Right. And I. And students do feel and sense, not just watch through those film and media examples. That's great. So before I let you go. Would you like to share with us what you are currently working on or anything coming up that's exciting for you?

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Well, yeah, I guess I meant I mentioned the special issue of Amerasia. It's a special issue that's commemorating the.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

25Th anniversary of the 2000 special issue.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Of Amerasia that kind of introduced Asian.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Settler colonial analytics based on the provocations.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Of the native feminist, Native Hawaiian scholar.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Hanan Ni K Trask.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And so this issue, the special issue.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Is it's a little bit retrospective and it's also thinking about that analytic in different contexts. And it's about to come out, like in the next. It'll be coming out. It's slowly coming out. And I think the full issue will be out probably by the new year, I think.

[Eileen (Host)]

Looking forward to that.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

Yeah.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

So please look out for that.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey (continuation of F)]

And then I've been working, slowly working on a.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Starting to work on a new project that's thinking about conservatism.

[Eileen (Host)]

So that's very related to what's ongoing, I suppose. Like the category.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Eileen (Host)]

Wow. Interesting. So great. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. And I look forward to reading more from you in the future.

[Professor Binash Jeffrey]

Thank you. Thank you so much for. For having me.

[Eileen (Host)]

Of course. Sam.