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Brian Martin, "From Underground Railroad to Rebel Refuge: Canada and the Civil War" (ECW Press, 2022)
00:38:34
An interview with Brian Martin
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- [00:00]
A
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Experian hello everybody. This is Marshall Po, the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a search service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:37]
A
Hello, and welcome to another episode on the New Books Network. I'm one of your hosts, Dr. Miranda Melcher, and I'm very pleased to be speaking today with Brian Martin about his book titled From Underground Railroad to Rebel Canada and the Civil war, published by ECW Press in 2022. And I'm reliably informed, available as an audiobook as well, for anyone who wants to access it that way. And you very well might want to, because this is quite an interesting book that takes a different perspective and literally on the United States Civil War. This is not placed in Virginia or Texas or anywhere like that. In fact, it's examining Canada's role in the bloody conflict on both sides of the conflict, and turns out. There are a lot of stories here. So, Brian, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
- [02:25]
C
Well, thank you, Miranda. It's good to be with you today.
- [02:28]
A
Could you please start us off by introducing yourself a little bit and tell us why you decided to write this? What questions are you asking? What's the backstory here?
- [02:37]
C
Okay. Well, I'm a retired newspaper journalist here in London, Ontario. That's a city of nearly a half a million people in the heart of southwestern Ontario and a couple of hours away from the American border. Well, a few years ago, a friend of mine with an historical bent took me on a visit to Woodland Cemetery here in London. He pointed out some very interesting headstones alongside some of the city's most prominent families from many years ago. The stones indicated that people buried there had been born in Charleston, S.C. and that's about 1,000 miles south of here as the. As the crow flies. And this raised many questions from this old journalist. Who were they? Why did they come here? That was the starting point for this, which happens to be my 10th book and is certainly my most interesting one. And I should point out there have been something like 60,000 books written about the Civil War, its battles, its legacy, its characters, all that sort of thing. There's only been a handful of books that have ever addressed the very interesting and largely unknown role that Canada played before, during, and after the Civil War.
- [03:44]
A
All the more reason I'm excited to have you on the podcast to tell us about this aspect we don't usually hear about. And I wonder if we can start kind of big picture. You use a particular analogy right at the beginning of the book that kind of is threaded throughout to help us make sense of Canada's role in the conflict. The analogy is of an attic. Why is this a helpful analogy to understand this piece of history?
- [04:09]
C
Well, that is borrowed from Robin Williams, the late American comedian. He talked about Canada. Canada is like the nice neighbor living above a meth lab. So it's not an original thought on my part, but it's very apt, I think. You know, in Canada, we are a very large country geographically, but we've got about only about one tenth of the population of the United States. And most of us live not far from the American border. We retain our British connections and hate to be confused with Americans. And oftentimes, trends and events in the United States spill over the border always seem to have. It's been said that if the US Sneezes, we in Canada catch a cold because of our proximity. We've been A hideout for some Americans over many, many years. Draft dodgers during the war in Vietnam, for instance, and what were called skedaddlers during the Civil War. We may soon see some more folks fleeing the Trump regime. In years to come, who knows?
- [05:06]
A
Definitely an interesting analogy that, as you said, applies for more periods than just the one we're mainly going to be focusing on, but we are going to focus on a particular period and especially on people, on stories. That's such a key part of the book. So can you tell us about one of them? Chloe Cooley, I'm guessing, is how her name is pronounced.
- [05:27]
C
I believe it is, yep.
- [05:28]
A
Can you tell us about her and why does she start the book? Why does her story come first?
- [05:33]
C
Well, she is a very important figure that is not that well known in Canadian history whatsoever. Chloe Cooley originally was a slave in the United States and was brought to Canada by some folks that came after the American Revolution. As I understand, we had slavery in the British colonies, as you had in Britain, the British colonies that are now Canada. By 1893, it appeared that our colony was planning to end slavery. There were some abolitionists that were had a lot of clout here. This concerned the man who owned Chloe Cooley, who had been brought in from the States. As I said, he didn't want to lose his investment, so he arranged to sell her to an American on the US Side of the Niagara river, not far from Niagara Falls. Well, Chloe, she wasn't a dummy. She suspected what was up and she was not happy about going back to the States when the prospect of freedom loomed. So she was forced into a boat for the crossing. And she put up such a fuss and screaming and caterwauling and carrying on that it attracted all sorts of attention. However, she was sold to the American and her ultimate fate over there is unknown. Her case outraged some local citizens and prompted the colonial legislature to enact a law in 1893 that would phase out slavery over the course of a generation. This was the first such law in the British Empire, in fact, and it wasn't until 1833 that Britain passed the Slavery Abolition Act. So the colony in this case was ahead of its parent. When they learned that freedom was so close at hand, black people in the United States began fleeing north to Canada and the Underground Railroad was born. And in all, more than 40,000 black people came to Canada over the years.
- [07:15]
A
Definitely a powerful and important way to start the story. If we talk, though, about those many African Americans coming over into Canada, why were they going to Canada? Was it the Promised land that they hoped for. Was it a better legal environment, for instance?
- [07:32]
C
Well, in fact they called it the Promised Land or Canaan. And they followed the North Star to freedom. It was a place that they could only dream of if they couldn't get there. And they were determined to get to Canada, which promised them freedom. Here they could buy land or be part of a land buying groups. And if they owned land, they could vote. And the colony did not discriminate against them in any way in terms of the law of the land.
- [08:03]
A
And did that actually play out in practice like was that people's experience that there was a better.
- [08:09]
C
Well, there was discrimination amongst people. I'll get into that in a bit if you don't mind. But there was some discrimination against them on the social scene. But in terms of the, the government and the guarantee of freedom and being able to vote and all those things, that was all guaranteed to them. And at the end of the day, what they. The lives they had up here. Yes, there was some lingering discrimination, but certainly was far better than what they came from.
- [08:37]
A
Got it. All right. And so where are these formerly enslaved people settling in Canada?
- [08:42]
C
Well, some found their way to Nova Scotia, but the majority came to what today is known as southwestern Ontario, very close to the border. Major crossings were at Niagara, near the famous falls and to the west at Detroit. Some chose to settle in self segregating farm settlements such as Buxton, Wilberforce and Dresden. Others however, settled in existing white communities hoping to integrate into them. At one point, a third of the residents of the community of Chatham west of here in London were black migrants. A third of the population were black people. My city of London had a sizable black population, as did several others in urban settings. Black newcomers plied trades that they'd learned back home such as carpentry, blacksmithing and acting as teamsters. Unfortunately, however, some newcomers lacked the organizational and farming skills they needed to succeed. And a couple of the self segregating black community struggled or failed completely. Like a place called Wilberforce, just north of London. Here the white man who organized the black settlement at Buxton, down by Chatham, had his life threatened when it was learned what he planned to do and create such a settlement. The local member of the colonial legislature even warned that property values would drop because of these newcomers. A school boundary in Chatham was gerrymandered to keep black students separate from white students. There was discrimination that occurred certainly, but as I said, the lives of black newcomers were still far better than what they had known back home while enslaved.
- [10:09]
A
And how did the people already living in these places react to these new arrivals either into existing towns or in the creation of new towns? What was that like?
- [10:21]
C
Well, they seem to get along fairly well for the most part. You know, slavery was considered an abomination, but Britain and its colonies in Canada relied on trade with states where enslavement was enshrined in law. You know, cotton was king and Britain and its colonies came to rely on it. So enslavement and plantations produced that cotton. So there was a, that was sort of the underlying sentiment here. It seems that when they had to, these trading partners of the United States turned a blind eye to the practice and some groups and newspapers posed enslavement across the border. In 1851, there was a. Quite a large convention of abolitionists that created the Anti Slavery Society of Canada in Toronto. And Frederick Douglass, the leading abolitionist from down in the States, was, was among the people that attended.
- [11:06]
A
All right, that's definitely very interesting to understand. This is obviously, therefore having an impact, not just obviously for those who are coming to Canada, but as you've explained, the kind of communities around them. What about more broadly across the country? Did this growth of black settlements, of black populations in Canada influence debate sort of nationally about slavery or what was happening in the United States?
- [11:30]
C
Well, yeah, the, the, the. That large convention was, was, was, was quite significant. And you know, a lot of people, because we had very few black people here, although there had been slavery early on, it was considered sort of a foreign situation to us. And to this day, a lot of people in Canada still consider the Civil War a foreign thing. But in fact we were heavily involved in it. So we became, they put out the welcome mat. One of the governors up here, the Lieutenant governor of Upper Canada, which is now Ontario, he said, let your folks come. We'll give them all the privileges of the rest. You know, you'll have the same rights as everyone. And the welcome mat was, was put out and land was provided and the authorities did, did the best they could to, to. To. We needed more warm bodies up here because the Americans in the War of 1812, they ran across this part of the world willy nilly because there weren't enough people here to muster militia and to defend ourselves. We. It was. The War of 1812 was a draw, but we were very thinly settled. So following the war of 1812, we were quite anxious to bring in settlers from the British Isles, from, from Europe, from, from wherever, anyone that wanted to come. And there was an offer of free land. Some Americans that were Going west from the New England on their way to the. The Midwest and beyond, would have to cross where I am, this part of Ontario. And they would learn that, well, gee, I could stop here and get some free land. So that's what they did. They, they, they, they stopped their, their, Their trek to the far west.
- [13:06]
A
All right, so this is going, I think, back to that attic analogy, right? The links are very close and clear between the two countries. If we move then to the outbreak of the Civil War in the United States, what position did Canada take of this conflict breaking out pretty close by?
- [13:26]
C
Well, Britain, as I indicated, and its North American colonies adopted a neutral position with respect to the north and the South. You know, trade and manufactured goods was strong with the north, but the south had all sorts of desirable agricultural products, primarily cotton. To side with one combatant in the Civil War would have alienated the other. So with a very. And with a very porous border, operatives and fugitives from both sides easily made their way across the border and into Canada. And that meant that plotters from both the south and north, they could come here. And they set up shop in Toronto, Montreal and elsewhere. And recruiters from the north, actually they were called crimps, Sought to sign up young men and boys for the Union cause and many times succeeded, sometimes using alcohol, sometimes using prostitutes, sometimes using the lure of big money, and succeeded in signing up a number of Canadian boys who, when they sobered up back in the. Down in the States, they realized that they were soldiers. There was opposition expressed to this practice, but it continued. There really wasn't a strong ability to stop these people that came up here, our young boys or, you know, we were happy to sell to both sides. And London was a very. There's one big hotel in London that was sort of the Confederate hotel. There were families from the south that were there, and Southern fried foods were brought in a couple times a week by a woman from Kentucky to feed the Southerners living here. And we sold horses to both sides. We sold agricultural products. And, you know, back then, horses were the way armies got around. So this was a. We. We profited handsomely, just we did with our agricultural goods in the, in the Crimean War. We profited handsomely in Canada from the Civil War. And we had had a recession before the war broke out, so we, we actually benefited from it.
- [15:20]
A
Interesting. Definitely not what I necessarily expected. I mean, I didn't really know what Canada had done, but that's definitely a more interesting answer than the kind of just sort of saying, oh, we're going to pick one side or the other. And that's really it. Thinking though about this idea of young men going to fight. Some Canadian young men did go south of the border to fight by choice.
- [15:43]
C
Yes.
- [15:43]
A
So why, I mean, some went, you talk about some went to fight for the Union, some went to fight for the Confederacy. Like help us understand what they were thinking they were doing.
- [15:51]
C
Well, the overwhelming majority of Canadian boys or men that went south to take part in the Civil War, the overwhelming majority of them went to the north rather than the south because to go and sign up for the south they had to cross the North. And a young man, able bodied young man heading south to sign up for the south could be intercepted by the Union side and he could be enlisted there, possibly against his will at any rate. The bottom line however was we had a recession after the Crimean war and by 1860 the economy wasn't in great shape in the colonies here and the wages paid in the army down there was significant. And oftentimes well, we had a family of boys that went down and they were all teamsters and they worked in the Union army and they were paid about three or four times what they were earning back home. So it was a very lucrative thing to go south for this British, even British army regulars. London here was a garrison town for the British army and we had people even fleeing here. British army officers were heading south. One such soldier deserted from the British garrison here and he walked all the way to Detroit, which is about 200km away. He was dressed as a woman and he traveled mostly at night. Well, he enlisted in the US army, the Union army, despite border patrols on the Canadian side intended to prevent such desertions. The British government had realized that so many soldiers were going south to fight in the Civil War that they had to have patrols along the border to prevent that. Well, this guy got past that. Some Canadians crossed the border, had crossed the border for better economic conditions before the war broke out and were swept up in the cause while there. I've just been reading about a fellow from a town just south of London here and his family had moved to or most of his family had moved to a place called Kalamazoo in Michigan the year before the Civil War broke out and he was enlisted and he died quite early in the battle. But there was no outcry from the colonial governments or from Britain, as far as I'm aware of about the roughly 20,000 Canadians, maybe a bit more, who chose to fight in America's war and.
- [18:07]
A
Particularly given those economic reasons for fighting, was that the same if they went for the Union or the Confederacy. Were those reasons the same?
- [18:14]
C
Yes, but I'm not sure how the pay compared in the Confederacy compared to the Union side. The resources of the Confederacy were much less than the Union and I suspect the pay was quite a bit less. The reason that some families or some young men went south was because they still had families down in Missouri or wherever and they, it was hard to get to them. And they, they managed to get down there and did in fact serve on the, on the Confederate side. There's a medical doctor that had moved to the states just before the war from a town north of Huron, Lake Huron. And he wound up being a surgeon in the. He wound up a surgeon in the Confederate army and in fact was captured, injured and captured at the battle of Gettysburg. He'd been down there because his own doctor had said, for your health, you should go south. Well, he wound up, you know, being a participant in the Civil War, so. But it was. Yes, it was. I think the underlying thing was money. And the vast majority, because of. It's a little closer to us. Vast majority of Canadian men served on the north for the North.
- [19:31]
A
Okay, that makes sense given that combination of reasons at this point, of course, Canada is, as you've mentioned, still part of the British Empire. So how did that work for them, sort of legally or politically going as British subjects to fight in a non British war? I mean, obviously our modern idea of kind of passports doesn't quite work. Did they get in trouble because they weren't American? How did that piece of it function?
- [19:58]
C
The Americans would. They would. They were so desperate for men. There were contests between states and cities to see who could provide the most recruits. And so any warm blooded, reasonably healthy person could sign up. In my book, I talk about this woman who pastored, who wanted to be a nurse. She was from New Brunswick and she wanted to be a nurse. But nurses, aside from the good work that Florence Nightingale had done, were not considered suitable to be in the army. So she passed herself off as a man. Franklin Thompson. Emma Edmonds was her name. She passed herself off office. Franklin Thompson. And they, they had a physical to get into the, to get into the army. But I guess it wasn't much more than a handshake because she saw service and her deception was, was not. Was never discovered. She, I guess maybe she looked a little mannish, I don't know. But it just. What makes you wonder. But it does show how desperate they were to have warm bodies in uniform to fight against each other.
- [21:00]
A
Yeah, no, that's definitely a very interesting idea of cities and states competing for Canadians. What about people, young men who were kind of trying to do the opposite. American men who didn't want to fight. You mentioned right at the beginning that in the Vietnam War, Canada was a place for draft dodgers. Was that true in the Civil War?
- [21:19]
C
Absolutely. Except we didn't call them draft dodgers then. They were known as skedaddlers and they seemed to be accepted here and they came in significant numbers. They did not want to fight and pro. Both sides would come up, find their way to the border and then because we were neutral, we weren't going to send anybody back anyway. The problem was though, that some of these young men that came up here would take some of the jobs of the locals, especially working on farms and stuff, and that drew some resentment. But there was never any sort of official condemnation or tossing the. The blackguards out to go home. One place in the Maritimes attracted so many skedaddlers, there's a place to this day called Skedaddler's Ridge. It was just a well known practice. I have no numbers. I can provide you about the total number of deserters or their treatment, but they came from both sides on the conflicts south of us. And in the border city of Windsor, which is right across from Detroit, there's a prominent hotel that became an unofficial headquarters for soldiers from both sides. And they drank and socialized and carried on and were so glad that they were just across the river from the conflict and no one in Canada stopped them from doing that. I mean, it was good for business, just like, I guess we were quite mercenary. If it was good for business. We turned a blind eye.
- [22:37]
A
Well, I want to ask about something else that perhaps blind eyes were turned to because you have a section of the book where you talk about American confederates in Canada who are still trying to contribute to their cause, although they're now across the border. Can you tell us a bit about how they were trying to do that and whether any of their schemes got close to succeeding?
- [22:58]
C
Well, excuse me, the Confederate government, I think it was about $600,000 or a million dollars, depending on which you believe, funded operations in Canada that were schemes, they were plots. They were trying to destabilize the north from a base in Canada. And Montreal had a big hotel there that even served mint juleps to the customers. It was blatantly appealing to Southerners, quite frankly, and they set up an operation there. The first talk of assassinating Abraham Lincoln came at the hotel in Montreal that Served as their headquarters for the well funded operation. And John Wilkes Booth hatched his plan there. He carried it out in the States and lined up some other people. But the first talk about it was over beer and at the pool hall in the hotel. The name escapes me right now. The daring raid on St. Albans, Vermont, just across the border from Canada, which is the most northerly Confederate incursion in the entire Civil War was also planned there by a group of Confederates. They raided town, the town and set some fires and stole some horses and money and at gunpoint made the citizens swear allegiance to the Confederacy. There was also a scheme to firebomb New York City that didn't do too well. They started some fires but it didn't, wasn't as disruptive as they'd hoped. And there was a plan to spread disease throughout the north with yellow fever. There was a doctor that was behind this whole thing and that didn't go too far. They were even trying to get some of this contaminated clothing to Abraham Lincoln himself. Anyway, anyway, those later plans didn't. Weren't very successful, you know and the streets of Montreal, Toronto and even here in London were full of spies. And sometimes plans failed because of loose lips. And one of the main plotters complained about he couldn't say anything on the streets of I think it was Toronto. He couldn't say without somebody hearing it or listening in or you know, there were a number of schemes that were really thwarted because people had got wind that something was up.
- [25:05]
A
This was a fascinating section to read about. But I would like to stay on the topic of southerners, the ones perhaps with less scheming involved. Well, you'll tell me if there was scheming involved at the end of the Civil War there were still a whole bunch of Americans in Canada. And in fact you talk about a pretty large sounding influx of southerners from the Confederacy who lost the Civil War coming up to Canada sort of towards the end of the conflict and afterwards. Why were they coming? Why were they settling in places like London and Niagara?
- [25:38]
C
Well, okay. There were many, many friends of the Confederacy over the course of the war in Canada and after the war when people started coming up here for a variety of reasons, either military officials or just citizens. That Jefferson Davis for instance, the president of the Confederacy, he was provided fine and free accommodation in the city of Montreal by from supporters there. And similar treatment was given to southern generals like Jubal early and others in Toronto. Niagara, which is just downriver from Niagara Falls. It played host to several former high ranking Confederates. An envoy Former vice President of the United States. They were all welcomed, and one of them lived right beside the local newspaper publisher, who he became pals with and wrote glowing things about them. Here in London, we became home for more than a dozen members of two families who had lost their plantations and their slaves. Two of them had been members of the South Carolina legislature, which had voted unanimously to secede from the United States back in December of 1860. That is considered one of the triggers for the outbreak of the war in the first place. Virtually all former Confederate officials returned to the states when it was safe to do so. But for a while, they, you know, set up shop here for a variety of years until it was safe to return with Reconstruction and they were granted amnesty. Had they. Had they not fled when they did, they could have been subject to treason and could have been hung. The former plantation owners that came to London here must have been accepted by high society because of their money, education, and tastes. After all, they're buried alongside some of the most prominent citizens of the day, including John Labatt of the Labatt beer fame, which was headquartered here. Very prominent citizens of the city. I have no knowledge of how southern refugees, temporary or permanent, are viewed in the south today, but that was beyond the scope of my work. And I didn't get into the larger political issues back in the day. I tried to focus more on the people and how they interacted once they were in Canada and how they behaved when they were here.
- [27:45]
A
Yeah, no. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Like how did these communities that they were moving into think about them? Were they okay with people coming in order to escape potential treason convictions, or were there raised eyebrows?
- [27:57]
C
Well, there's sort of the two classes. One is the military or government class. And we had the generals, had the president and the vice president of the Confederacy, the secretary, the last secretary of war for the Confederacy. These folks were all accepted, as far as I can tell. They had fine homes that they acquired or either rented, most of them rented, hoping they would be here for a brief period of time. One of the more interesting ones was John Breckenridge. Who? John Cabell Breckenridge, who ran for president in 1860 against Abraham Lincoln. Obviously, he lost, but he had been vice president under the previous president. And he became the last secretary of war under Jefferson Davis. And he. He was perhaps the most high ranking of the people aside from Jefferson Davis himself. But they all gathered together. They were. They had supporters. There was a rally for Davis in Toronto when he visited from Montreal, and then he Came to Niagara and to see Breckenridge and James Mason, the former envoy and other, and Jubal early and others that had congregated there. And he was given a hero's welcome. And even the locals turned out and they played Dixie and he gave a speech to the locals. And they were well received. Surprisingly well received, actually. I found that very, very interesting. Yes. I always thought we sort of sided with the north and its, you know, inclinations about slavery and stuff, but we obviously had a soft spot for the Confederates, the officials and then the individuals that. I mean, a lot of those officials and generals and the like eventually returned. The vast majority of them, I think one or two of them died up here, but the rest of them went back. However, this family in London, these families that came to London here, I found quite interesting because they. They lived the rest of their lives here. They had no. Nothing to go back to. Their plantations were gone. Their way of life was gone. I would think adjusting to the winters in London, Ontario, compared to Charleston, South Carolina would have been a bit of a chore for them, but people seem to have accepted them. I mean, they would not be buried in the most prominent cemetery in this city alongside the high society, the members of high society of the city, had they not been accepted. I think that speaks volumes right there. And the one fellow wrote a couple of books, Manigault was his name. He wrote a couple books defending the south and defending plantation agriculture and saying the Confederacy was right and blah, blah, blah. And it was obviously a racist book. It was published. He did two. Published two books while he was here living in exile, his final days in London. And so people would know what his views were even if they didn't hang around him all that much. But the fact of the matter is, where they are spending eternity is alongside the leading likes of the city of the day. So to me, that speaks volumes about their acceptance up here.
- [31:04]
A
Yeah, no, it definitely does. But acceptance, I mean, obviously, as you said, spending eternity is a big statement. But you also talk about in the book how some of the Confederate views, at least, were not accepted. For example, there were, it sounds like some efforts to try and start the KKK in Canada, but that didn't work, right?
- [31:24]
C
Yeah, well, that's not a proud moment for Canada, to be honest. The Ku Klux, as it was originally called, was established within a year or two of the end of the Civil War in the South. It was people that hated black people, didn't want them voting, didn't want them elected to the legisl. Were they started out to dissuade blacks from voting black people by voting, by terrorizing them, setting their places on fire, threatening them, waving guns at them, all that sort of thing. And a few of the people that came to Canada were actual fugitives from justice because they had been. The Americans had a Ku Klux act that forbade that sort of action. And a couple of the people that came up here, one in London and another to Niagara on the lake, were had, you know, they were up on charges of murder and that sort of thing. So they were hiding out here till it was safe to go back home too. However, the Ku Klux was eventually sort of stamped out because of that legislation and, and prosecution of them. And it sort of lay dormant for a number of years. And then the Birth of a Nation, the movie came out in 1916, I think it was. They portrayed the Ku Klux Klan as the saviors of the white man, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and became the coup, became called the Ku Klux Klan for the first time. And they succeeded in untapping hatred for black people that had lain dormant for a little while or at least kept under wraps. And they enlisted millions and millions of Americans in the late teens and early twenties, I think there were six or eight million members of the organization. And they tried to get into Canada figuring, well, you know, it works in the States, it should work in Canada. Well, the problem was we had something here. I don't know if you in England have it or not, but we have the Loyal Orange Lodge, which is a Protestant fraternal organization, which is Irish Protestant in orientation, does not like Catholics, does not like non British immigrants, does not like foreigners at all much. Back then they were very bigoted and very, very racist. Well, they had a lock on society here in Ontario. It was this opposition. Basically, the Loyal Orange Lodge was pervasive. To get a job for the provincial government, you had to be an Orangeman for a century. Nearly all of Toronto's mayors were Orangemen. All our premiers were in Ontario. Ontario. Four of Canada's prime ministers were associated with the Orange Lodge. And one of them in a fairly high ranking position. Bigots who hated not just Catholics, but also non British immigrants and black people. They were very entrenched here. So when the KKK came knocking, trying to sign up bigots to join their anti black organization, they couldn't compete with the Orange Lodge because it was already very, very strong. And basically at the end of the day, after trying. And there were rallies at Toronto City hall, we had one just outside of London here that had a thousand people came to it at night with white bed sheets on, large crosses on fire. There was a thousand people there, and I think they signed up two or three hundred members just in one night. So they did have some success in attracting people. But overall they just didn't appeal, I guess, to us. And the fact that if you were already sort of prejudiced, you were, it seems that you were already a member of the Orange Lodge. And I, I suspect that my Irish Protestant ancestors, probably they may have been part of it too. Not, I'm not happy about that. But anyway, it was a, it was a very interesting time here because during the Civil War, we sort of accepted people. Before the Civil War, we accepted a lot of people after the Civil War, there's a lot of legacy issues, and one of them was the the Ku Klux Klan trying to set up shop in Canada. And it didn't get too far.
- [35:27]
A
Very interesting to understand, as you said, right. The before, the during and the after. And so good that we can have this perspective that, as you mentioned right at the beginning, isn't one we usually have of the Civil War in the United States. So thank you very much for telling us about it. And of course, for listeners who want to get into even more details, there is, of course, the book titled Underground Railroad to Rebel Canada in the Civil war, published by ECW Press in 2022 and obviously still available from them from bookstores and as mentioned as an audiobook as well. So, Brian, thank you so much for joining us to tell us about the book.
- [36:05]
C
Well, thank you for your interest and thanks for your questions. They were great. Thanks. Thanks, Miranda.