Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Cassandra S. Tully de Lope, "Masculinity and Identity in Irish Literature: Heroes, Lads, and Fathers" (Routledge, 2024)
Host: Helen Panett
Guest: Dr. Cassandra S. Tully de Lope
Date: October 14, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers around Dr. Cassandra S. Tully de Lope’s book, Masculinity and Identity in Irish Literature: Heroes, Lads, and Fathers (Routledge, 2024). Dr. Tully de Lope discusses how concepts of masculinity and identity have been explored in 20th and 21st-century Irish novels, employing a distinctive interdisciplinary methodology combining corpus linguistics and literary analysis. The discussion covers Irish cultural models of masculinity, particularly the legacy of mythical figures like Cuchulainn, the dynamic interplay of father-son relationships, the rise and fall of the "lad" figure, and how contemporary literature increasingly represents marginalized masculinities.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Dr. Tully de Lope’s Academic Journey

[03:07]

• Irish-Spanish heritage—her father was Irish, instilling a lifelong fascination with Irish culture and literature.
• Initial engagement with masculinity studies came from analyzing literary characters like Mr. Darcy, Heathcliff, and Dorian Gray in her undergraduate work.
• Shifted towards corpus linguistics during her MA, mentored by Carolina Amador, focusing on masculinity within Irish literature.
• Developed an interdisciplinary approach blending traditional literary analysis with quantitative corpus studies.

“From then on, it was bye bye to any other type of investigation research. I just loved masculinity.” — Cassandra S. Tully de Lope [03:52]

The Cuchulainn Model: Impossible Irish Masculinity

[06:14]

• Cuchulainn represents the ultimate, unattainable ideal of Irish masculinity: self-sacrificing warrior-hero, embodying the "male gaze."
• Such ideals, recurrent across different cultures (parallels drawn to Spain’s El Cid), render "ordinary" men set up for inevitable failure given their unrealistic standards.
• The novels in Dr. Tully de Lope’s corpus demonstrate repeated male attempts—and failure—to live up to this model.

“Kuchulainn in this case also sets up men for failure...because it's not realistic. You cannot portray a warrior, but also the male breadwinner of the house and have a healthy mental state with this.” — Cassandra S. Tully de Lope [06:45]

Corpus Linguistics: Advantages and Challenges

[08:17]

• Corpus linguistics enables the systematic quantification of phenomena across multiple texts—tracking, for example, how often characters fight, use specific types of speech, or exchange nicknames/insults.
• The combination of close reading and computational tools captures linguistic recurrences invisible to the “naked eye.”
• Emphasizes the balance needed between computer analysis and human interpretation for meaningful insights.

“It's humanly impossible to do it with your human eye... But with a computer, that's a good thing. Like nothing gets lost.” — Cassandra S. Tully de Lope [09:18]

Models of Irish Masculinity

[11:30]
Breakdown of primary models:

• Heroes and Soldiers:
  The Cuchulainn/warrior ideal—chivalric, disciplinarian, associated with honor—yet increasingly obsolete.
• Lads:
  Emerges from 1990s Celtic Tiger culture; young men defined by physicality, socializing, sexual conquests, and sport. Ultimately also collapses post-economic crash.
• Fathers:
  The silent, disciplinarian father: both familial head and nation-symbol; involved in generational conflict with sons, shifting with modernity and feminism.
• Sons:
  Frequently in conflict with fathers, questioning tradition, repeating generational cycles of rebellion and reevaluation.
• Racialized and Homosexual Masculinities:
  More visible in 21st-century literature—their identities doubly questioned due to not aligning with hero or lad models.

“The son is going to try and come up and fight the father... it’s a natural progression of things in the life of a family.” — Cassandra S. Tully de Lope [13:56]

Methodology: Corpus Linguistics Meets Literary Analysis

[19:30]

• Built a corpus of 18 novels by Irish male authors (1965–2018).
• Mixed corpus linguistics (analyzing frequency and context of words like names, insults, terms of endearment) with corpus stylistics (combining linguistic patterns with literary context).
• Emphasized authenticity, representativeness, and strategic sampling in selecting texts.

“What I like about mixing discipline, is you can guess a little bit of everything... you can get something grand out of it.” — Cassandra S. Tully de Lope [21:44]

Selecting the Corpus

[23:16]

• Extensive groundwork; spent a summer in Dublin reading and consulting with bookstore staff and academics.
• Selected novels authentic to Irish experience, resonant with her own Irish family.
• Expanded the corpus after her PhD to include more diverse masculinities (e.g., racialized, homosexual).

Alternative Character Categories

[28:50]

1. Characters Against the World:
   Non-conforming individuals (e.g., Patrick Moran in That They May Face the Rising Sun) retreating from masculine norms.
2. Characters Against Each Other:
   Interpersonal, often generational, conflicts drive narratives (e.g., fathers and sons in John McGahern’s The Dark).

Core Findings from the Corpus Study

Male Vocatives and Hierarchies

[34:09]

• Shift in naming (e.g., “Daddy” when affectionate, “Father” when angry) signals relationship dynamics and emotional context.
• Nicknames may serve as terms of endearment or as subtle insults, mirroring real-world male banter and hierarchy-building.
• The same phenomena found in other cultures (not just Irish or English).

“I found also the nicknames can be used as insults too...So for instance, in the Journey Home… Francis, the protagonist, would be called Frank at home, but we Francie as an insult, etc.” — Cassandra S. Tully de Lope [35:08]

Verbs of Speech and Domination

[38:07]

• Analyzed speech verbs (“shout,” “demand,” “accept,” “admit”) to track dominance/submission in male interactions.
• Around 10–11% of these verbs reflected some form of domination or compliance, signposting power struggles.
• Narration and adverbial modification (e.g., “demanded angrily”) double-down on hierarchical meaning.
• Sometimes, domination in speech can mask underlying vulnerability.

“Domination with verbs like shout or scream...they use their shouted words to imply domination when in fact they were just losing the battle...” — Cassandra S. Tully de Lope [39:38]

Body Language, Hypermasculinity, and Shifts

[42:21]

• Male characters often perform physical dominance ("manspreading," puffing up) even when feeling insecure, as a learned hypermasculine script.
• Hypermasculinity is performative—a mask for emotional vulnerability, often acknowledged in narration.
• Over time, subtle shifts: Modern novels show increased platonic physical affection (patting on the back, shoulder touches), yet full emotional intimacy is rare and usually awkward, indicating persistent social taboos.

“Hyper masculinity is a show of strength when they don’t feel it at all, not at least in these novels.” — Cassandra S. Tully de Lope [44:13]

Literary and Cultural Shifts

• Across the studied period, there’s a visible transition from rigid, traditional models toward more nuanced, pluralistic representations of masculinity—including increased visibility for homosexual men and racialized identities.
• Male-male intimacy is rendered in tentative, coded gestures rather than direct emotional expression; societal attitudes remain a limiting force.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “I’ve always been interested in Irish culture... I became interested in masculinities through, I think, Rod of a Carbon Male characters in literature, Mr. Darcy.” — Tully de Lope [03:15]
• “Kuchulainn in this case also sets up men for failure...because it's not realistic.” — Tully de Lope [06:45]
• “What I most like about corpus linguistics... when you look at a bigger number of books...you can actually see the importance of it.” — Tully de Lope [09:00]
• “Nicknames can be used as insults too...they are meant to be said as, oh, I love you.” — Tully de Lope [36:00]
• “Sometimes they would use their shouted words to imply domination when in fact they were just losing the battle...” — Tully de Lope [39:38]
• “Hypermasculinity is a show of strength when they don’t feel it at all...they are acting this way. But in fact all of us would be scared in a fight.” — Tully de Lope [44:13]
• “I still think, and I'm still interested and trolled by the idea that how the female gaze works for male characters.” — Tully de Lope [46:40]
• “Hosier is now one of these representations of Irish identity with this mythological background and this mythologized identity of what Irish should be like, I don't know. But of course it's not, because it's just an outside of Ireland idea.” — Tully de Lope [51:13]

Future Research Directions

[46:40]

• Creating a corpus analyzing women writers’ portrayals of men—contrast with male authors’ approach.
• Further nuanced studies on marginalized masculinities (racialized, homosexual).
• Current pilot project (with David Sotoka Fernandez): Investigating apology patterns—do homosexual male characters apologize more than non-homosexual? Initial findings suggest so.
• Exploration of how myth and popular culture (e.g., Hosier as a “bog king”) shape contemporary Irish identity and masculinity.

Memorable Moments

• Dr. Tully de Lope’s playful tone and frequent self-deprecation about her technical skills with corpus linguistics.
• Recurrent mentions of familial resonance—how her father and family shaped her literary interests and the felt authenticity of the corpus.
• The international angle: comparing findings with Spanish naming/insulting conventions and discussing Irish literature’s wider cultural reach.
• Lively anticipation for future projects—especially the idea of mapping mythologized contemporary Irish figures and tracking generational change through literature and pop culture.

Summary

This conversation is a deep dive into the evolving representations and performances of masculinity in late 20th- and early 21st-century Irish literature. Dr. Cassandra S. Tully de Lope’s approach not only bridges linguistic and literary studies but also personal heritage and broader societal shifts, offering an innovative framework for future research. The episode is both rich in academic insight and grounded in warmth and humor, making it highly accessible and thought-provoking for listeners interested in Irish studies, gender, or the intersections of language and identity.