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[00:00]
Apple Card/Uber Eats Advertiser
This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Shave ice by the beach, a trip to the state fair and a throwback flick at the local drive in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. They're also opportunities to earn 2% daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and more@applecard.com you know those tiny back
[00:32]
Uber Eats Advertiser
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[01:16]
Apple Card/Uber Eats Advertiser
Welcome to the New Books Network
[01:21]
Paul Knepper
welcome back to New Books Network. My name is Paul Knepper, and today my guest is Julie Kligman, author of the new book Finding Renee Richards, the Groundbreaking Story of Tennis's Trans Pioneer. This is Julie's second book and her second time on the podcast, I'm happy to say. Her first book is called Mind Game. They were previously the copy chief for Sports Illustrated and a copy editor at the Ringer. Their writing on a wide variety of topics has appeared in outlets including Sports Illustrated, the Washington Post, the Ringer, the Book Forum, Defector, Vulture, buzzfeed, Vox, on and on. Julie, welcome back to the podcast.
[02:02]
Julie Kligman
Hey, thanks so much for having me back.
[02:04]
Paul Knepper
Sure. I'm excited to dive into this book, I guess. To start off, for those that aren't familiar with Renee and her story, can you kind of give the broad strokes of who Renee Richards is and why you were interested in her story?
[02:21]
Julie Kligman
So Renee Richards is a transgender woman who sued in 1977 for her right to compete in the US Open women's draw. And she was a tennis player before her transition and wanted to continue playing tennis once she started identifying as a woman. And so she fought for that right. And I was really interested in her story because I had been covering Trans athletes of today for Sports Illustrated at the time. And, you know, I was just looking for more context to like, understand our current moment and how we got to these attacks on trans athletes. And I was vaguely familiar with Renee's story, but I didn't know all the details. And so I was really excited to start diving into that and see what, what I could learn from it.
[03:15]
Paul Knepper
And you, you know, you're very forthcoming in the book about your, your personal life. You identify as a non, non binary trans person. And I wonder if, if given your identity, if was kind of going into this, was Renee someone that you looked up to?
[03:34]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I mean, I, I think when you're. I, I was pretty new at the time to identifying as non binary and trans. And like, I think, I don't know if I was looking up to her exactly, but I think there is a tendency to, like, look toward elders in the community. Yeah, totally. So I think there was that sense of like, oh, here's someone who, you know, like the subtitle says she was a pioneer.
[04:03]
Paul Knepper
Right? Yeah, so. But she's been through it. She's been through to some extent where you're going through. And so, yeah, it makes sense. Renee's given name was Richard Raskin. And as you talk about in the book, it's a lot of things that make Renee interesting are that in a number of ways she somewhat veers from the norms of the trans community, how they identify themselves or how they want to be referred to. One example of that is she wanted you to refer to her, you know, pre transition by her given male name of Richard. Yeah. And I wonder, could you talk a little bit about that and how that's unusual within the community.
[04:50]
Julie Kligman
Yeah. So I wrote the first draft of this book using the name Renee Richards throughout and she, her pronouns throughout. And then I was talking to her when I was fact checking some things and, you know, this came up as well. I was like, just FYI, this is how I handled your name. And she was really, really upset and, you know, by that choice. And I think that was a little bit jarring for me because, yeah, I'm used to, in today's world, most trans people want you to use their chosen name and, you know, current pronouns, no matter when you're referring to them. Uh, so I was like, taken aback a little by this request. But ultimately I decided, you know, like, if she wants to be called Richard or Dick Raskin, I mean, that's, that's her prerogative. I mean, there's a lot in this book she doesn't have any say over. It's not an authorized biography, but respecting how she wanted to be referred to is something I did think I could and should do.
[05:58]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And I, I found it as a good reminder that we can't put everybody in a box. We can't. You know, we can't. You know, trans people often are, you know, they come together for advocacy purposes and certainly have certain commonalities, but that everybody's an individual. You can't say all trans people are the same or one or, you know, so it was, that was a good reminder for me to keep everybody, keep it in perspective that everybody in every group and community is an individual and has their own individual preferences.
[06:33]
Julie Kligman
Absolutely. Yeah.
[06:34]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. So talk a little bit about, about Dick Raskin. Who was, who was Dick Raskin?
[06:43]
Julie Kligman
So he was an athletic, charismatic kid and he grew up with, you know, a very strong mother figure. His father was kind of took the backseat more in parenting, it sounds like. And he also had an older sister named Josephine and they had an interesting relationship, a troubled at times relationship. And Dick really always kind of sought an outlet in tennis. He started playing around age 10 or 11. And so, yeah, like I, I think he was also from an early age interested in wearing girls clothing and you know, the seeds, this isn't true for everybody, but for him, the seeds of like his trans identity were sewn pretty early.
[07:43]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And you know, something that really jumps out too is he was in very ways, in, in many ways kind of the stereotypical male in a way. Right. He was, he was a great athlete. He was charismatic, popular, handsome, very intelligent.
[07:59]
Julie Kligman
Yes.
[08:00]
Paul Knepper
Not, you know, again, we're stereotyping here what people would think of as a masculine person. He came across that way. Know, you mentioned that his relationship with his sister was complicated. I, I think Renee referred to it as abusive.
[08:18]
Julie Kligman
That's. Yeah, that is the right word for it. Yeah. Beat around the bush.
[08:22]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And you know, one of the things was she, she would, she would treat him like a girl and dress him up like a girl. And I think like, I don't know, maybe the, the Freudian, the old school Freudian psychologist would latch onto that and say, you know, that's what led Dick to, you know, become Renee and identify as a girl and that it was, it was the result of trauma. What, what are your thoughts on that theory?
[08:51]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I don't really subscribe to that theory, though it certainly is possible there's some sort of connection because I think being forcibly dressed in women's clothes did allow him to, you know, put it together that he enjoyed that. Right. Of course. Enjoyed it of his own volition more. But I don't think it's like a one to one, like the trauma, like, caused this. No. Because I think this could happen to any number of people and most of them would not change their gender over it.
[09:23]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, agreed. You mentioned he started kind of experimenting of his own volition. His sister's stuff aside, his own volition would wear women's clothing at like, how old. How old was he when he started to kind of play around with that?
[09:40]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, he was. He was pretty little. Like, we're talking, like early grade school, I believe. And yeah, he would just kind of take some clothing from his sister's room and lock himself in the bathroom and see what he looked like. And, you know, that would bring him some peace of mind, even as he was worried about getting caught.
[10:04]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And then it's. It's just very interesting to read. To read and absorb kind of the process. Right. From going from that to starting to think of yourself as. As a woman and then slowly telling people and. And we're talking about, you know, the. Him growing up in the 60s. And this isn't, you know, the 2000 and 20s. How difficult was that struggle for Dick emotionally?
[10:38]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, it was something he kept very private for a very long time, understandably so. And his transition was very stop and start very much like, okay, let me get on hormones, let me get off hormones, et cetera, et cetera. He had all these different surgical procedures. So he was transitioning for about a decade. It was really hard at times for him to find medical care. Even harder than it is today at times. And. Yeah, so it was like this long, drawn out process before he considered his transition into Renee complete.
[11:22]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, that was fascinating. I mean, even to the point where he, you know, like, started the hormones, as you said, and then completely reversed course and got married to a woman. And like. Yeah, it was like. It was like. It was just like reading it. It was painful, you know, sad, because it was like he was desperate to. Kept kind of reaching out for that, you know, again, stereotypical or typical, what people would say, typical, certainly at that time, especially lifestyle and identification and trying to make it work with a woman and trying to, you know, make it look work for him as a man. But he just wasn't. It was just never gonna be comfortable that it was never something in him. Had. Renee had become too powerful.
[12:14]
Julie Kligman
Right, Exactly. I think that's how Renee would describe it too. And, you know, she, you know, Dick really had been reaching for that masculinity. And, you know, I think kind of once he achieved, like, the pinnacle of what people think is, like, peak masculinity, like being married to a beautiful woman, having a child, you know, becoming a father. I think it was then that he was like, oh, I, you know, really can't do this.
[12:43]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And I would add to that being a good earner. Right.
[12:46]
Julie Kligman
Yeah.
[12:47]
Paul Knepper
As a provider, as. As a. A very well respected doctor.
[12:52]
Julie Kligman
Yeah.
[12:53]
Paul Knepper
Again, a stereotypically male profession, I would say, at that time. But eventually, of course, he. It did. Renee was too powerful and. And he went through with it. How. You touched on this a little. But how common were. How common were sex changes at that time?
[13:13]
Julie Kligman
Definitely not very common there. You know, it. It wasn't unheard of. Of course, there had been trans people as long as, you know, humans have existed. But, like, since it was so hard, as we talked about, to get, like, the necessary medical care, it was more rare at that time. And for a lot of people, when Renee started making headlines a couple years after her transition, that would be the first time a lot of people had heard of transgender people or at the time, transsexual people.
[13:47]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, right, right. Even the term wasn't. Wasn't known. Right. Transsexual or transgender.
[13:53]
Julie Kligman
Yeah. Like, most people, I think, would say they did not know a trans person in their life or at least know they had one in their life until, you know, Renee was on the scene.
[14:04]
Paul Knepper
And it's interesting. It's. It's almost like Renee is detached from that in a way. I get the sense that she doesn't even really identify with the word at least trans.
[14:15]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, we had some interesting talks about, like, terminology. She definitely identifies most with the term transsexual. And trans, to her is sort of like, I. I think sort of like the word queer and that it feels more like nebulous and modern. I just see it as a shortened version of transsexual or transgender. But, you know, other people may have disagreements there, but yeah, she's definitely not someone who's adopted more modern nomenclature in general.
[14:49]
Paul Knepper
So she. Ultimately, she. No more back and forth. She's. She's full Renee. She goes. She goes through the procedures, the hormones, everything, and I think very reasonably kind of moves out to the west coast to kind of start over. Yeah, it's. It's hard. It's hard to do that. You know, reading that kind of. The sad part about that to me was. Was her son.
[15:18]
Julie Kligman
Yeah.
[15:20]
Paul Knepper
Nicholas. Nicholas.
[15:21]
Julie Kligman
Yep.
[15:23]
Paul Knepper
And for one, that had to be very confusing for Nicholas again, particularly at that time. And I don't know. And, and she left, right. I mean she went across the country even. Forget, forget the sex change. If you're right up and leaves, it leaves you and goes across the country. That's got to be somewhat traumatic.
[15:47]
Julie Kligman
Absolutely.
[15:48]
Paul Knepper
And so I don't know, you know, Nicholas, it sounded like just never really, you know, live kind of a sad life in a way. And it yeah, obviously didn't end well. But I. How did you get a sense for how that affected him?
[16:03]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I think like you said, like any parent just kind of up and moving across the country is, is painful. You know, he was so young at the time, like a toddler I think. And yeah, the sex change on top of that, I think he was very confused. I think as he got older he did harbor a lot of like bitter feelings about that at times. You know, it's tricky. It ultimately comes down to though, like would you rather have, and this is going to sound really pithy but like would you rather have like a trans parent or like a dead parent? Because you know, Renee as Dick Raskin, you know, did have suicidal thoughts and you know, kind of like self harm behavior. So it was really a matter of life and death for Renee and I think for a lot of trans people and that's something that's not always like super appreciated.
[17:00]
Paul Knepper
Absolutely. And I don't think it has to be that extreme where it's dead or friends. It could just be a very unhappy parent. Absolutely transparent. And I think every child is better off with a transparent who's happy and comfortable in their own skin than a very unhappy parent. Because that, that, I mean that, that's an unhappy parent is detrimental to, to a child. I mean there's just no way around that. So Totally. So Renee goes, she goes cross country, she goes to California and in. Before long she finds herself. She had that competitive spirit. She was a, she's the competitor and she had to get back into the game and, and plays this tournament in, in, in California where she's, she's recognized by certain people. She was somewhat known on the tennis circuit. The whole, the whole cameo of Tucker Carlson's father was this weird, weird anecdote.
[17:58]
Julie Kligman
Yes.
[17:59]
Paul Knepper
And I'm like, oh yeah, of course Tucker Carlson's father was an asshole like in. But yeah, so I guess I want to go back a little bit. How, how good of a tennis player and how committed of a tennis player was Dick Raskin?
[18:18]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I mean he was pretty good. He was Ranked pretty highly in, like, the Eastern men's, like, amateur tennis circuit. He was never a pro as a man, but, like, also at that time, a lot of tennis players were not pros because it was before the Open era, where kind of, like, the compensation and, you know, tournament eligibility and all of that changed. So tennis kind of took a back seat to ophthalmology for Dick as he grew up. But, you know, he was a very competitive player.
[18:54]
Paul Knepper
And then. So Rene is outed after this tournament. And. And what was the reaction, both in the tennis world and the public at that time?
[19:04]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I. I think in the tennis world there had been, like, murmurings that, you know, this was happening with Renee, but it was still, you know, I think it sent, like, U.S. open officials into, like, a tizzy, like, what if she tries to enter our tournament? And, you know, in the public, I think it was probably mostly a reaction of confusion or, like, what did this mean? Was. Because especially the way that Tucker Carlson's father, Richard, presented it, it was like, oh, this is a man masquerading as a woman. Sort of like the narrative you hear today about, like, oh, trans people are men masquerading as women to get, like, prize money or scholarships or, you know, things like that that are obviously untrue. So I think Renee held a press conference at her home tennis club, and she was. She kind of had to clear the air and say, like, hey, I'm a woman.
[20:06]
Paul Knepper
This is.
[20:07]
Julie Kligman
You know, this is how I feel. This is what has happened in my life.
[20:12]
Paul Knepper
And, yeah, I'm not just a dude with a wig. Right.
[20:17]
Julie Kligman
Exactly. Exactly. And it sucks that she had to do that. But I do think it was. Know, I. I think she had a good idea to do that. I do think it was kind of necessary at the time.
[20:29]
Apple Card/Uber Eats Advertiser
Yeah.
[20:29]
Paul Knepper
And then, you know, you mentioned the US Open. She ends up suing to. To. To play in the US Open and is successful with her. With her suit, and. And they allow her to play, and then she's on the tour. You know, I mean, the first thing that came to mind was, do you think, would a trans person wins such a suit now?
[20:48]
Julie Kligman
I really don't think so. I think even at the time, she had a few things working in her favor that not every trans person might have. I mean, she had the support of Billie Jean King, which I think was probably pretty pivotal in the judge's decision to let her play. There was also the matter of her age. It was constantly under discussion. She was in her 40s by the time she transitioned. And So I think she was perceived as less of a threat to the other woman on tour. Billie Jean King was younger. Martina Navratilova was younger. Chrissy Everett was younger, certainly by a lot.
[21:22]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, a lot younger.
[21:23]
Julie Kligman
Yeah. Yeah. So it was the sense of, like, okay, Renee is sufficiently womanly, whatever that means. And also she isn't gonna likely keep pace with the very top players on the tour. And so it was a, it was a decision by the judge that was very specific to her. And yeah, I mean, today we've seen court cases go differently. I mean, just recently, like, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that like, school level bans on trans people competing were legitimate. So, yeah, it's a much different world than it was 50 years ago, certainly.
[22:02]
Apple Card/Uber Eats Advertiser
This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Shave ice by the beach, a trip to the state fair, and a throwback flick at the local drive in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. There are also opportunities to earn 2% daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and more@applecard.com youm know those tiny back
[22:33]
Uber Eats Advertiser
to school emergencies that somehow become your problem? That's why I love Uber Eats. You can order school supplies, snacks and lunchbox essentials for $5 or less. So when your kid casually drops, I don't like peanut butter anymore or I need five green highlighters for a project due tomorrow, Uber Eats has you covered. Get everything you need for back to School today from your favorite brands like Aldi and Staples. On Uber Eats, order now ends 97. $5 or less before taxes and fees. Select items only. Availability varies. See app for details. Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smell? Smooth caramel maybe? Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.
[23:17]
Julie Kligman
Hear that?
[23:18]
Paul Knepper
That's now crispier McCrispy strips meeting creamy Caesar sauce sounds extra crispy caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time. Fascinated. Because, you know, I. I feel like in every other civil rights realm, we've progressed.
[23:40]
Julie Kligman
Yeah.
[23:41]
Paul Knepper
And that's an example of how it seems like we've gone backwards.
[23:46]
Julie Kligman
Yeah.
[23:48]
Paul Knepper
So how, and how. How good of a player was Renee on the women's tour? How successful was she?
[23:55]
Julie Kligman
She was pretty good. I mean, she peaked at 20th in the singles rankings. The computerized rankings were fairly new at the time. She peaked at 20. She was also a pretty competitive doubles player. So yeah, I mean she wasn't this like overarching threat to the integrity of the game, but she wasn't bad either.
[24:17]
Paul Knepper
There was some opposition though within the game. Right. I mean there were women who spoke out.
[24:21]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, there were a couple of women who like wore T shirts at one of their tournaments where she was playing. They're like, you know, denigrating her. There was one woman who like left the court in protest. So there was opposition here and there. But I think like largely a lot of the discomfort and opposition was before she won her lawsuit and before Billie Jean kind of got people in line.
[24:46]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. You know, you mentioned she got up to. She was ranked as high as 20th in the world in the computer rankings. And of course she was in her 40s at this time, which is well past your prime in tennis years. Yeah. How, how good could she have been? If, let's say Dick Raskin transitioned to Renee Richards at the age of 18 and was practicing regularly and dedicated herself fully to a career on the tour, would she have been the best player in the world?
[25:18]
Julie Kligman
You know, I still don't think so. I mean, maybe I'm wrong here and we'll obviously never know, but I think she was never known as being like the quickest on her feet. But what she didn't have in speed, she made up for in power, especially with her like left handed serve that like a lot of people talk about as being really distinctive. So I think she certainly could have ranked higher than 20th for sure. Which, you know, that's getting to the point where like you are beating top players at least occasionally. So.
[25:48]
Paul Knepper
Right.
[25:48]
Julie Kligman
I, I think she could have been more of a force on tour. It might have looked very different for her. She also might never would have won her lawsuit, you know, because we talked about age being a potential factor there.
[26:00]
Paul Knepper
Right. And, and Billie Jean King and whoever else might not have been as receptive if they thought she was a real threat to, to beat them.
[26:10]
Julie Kligman
That's right. Exactly.
[26:11]
Paul Knepper
Billy Jean and the rest of them are very competitive themselves.
[26:15]
Julie Kligman
Absolutely.
[26:15]
Paul Knepper
Of course, Renee, you know, you, you talked to Renee sounds like a number of times for this book. And she's in her 90s now. What, what is your impression of Renee Richards now? What is her life like? What, what do you think of her as a person?
[26:32]
Julie Kligman
She lives a really quiet life now with a platonic partner and she finally retired from ophthalmology a few years ago. She had stopped doing surgeries many, many years ago. But she finally fully retired only a few years ago. So I think as a journalist, I kind of got lucky with the timing because here was someone newly with a lot of free time on her hands who was also in a point of reflecting on her life and her career. So it was a real privilege to get to know her over the course of writing this book. And the book is obviously so much better for the fact that she agreed to participate in it. There are so many moments where not knowing what was going on in her head, you know, that would have been a struggle to write clearly in the book. So, yeah, I mean, Renee and I, it's. Have an interesting relationship, a really positive one overall. But we do have some disagreements, as I'm sure we're going to get into here, about trans athlete eligibility. So, you know, I, I wanted to be transparent about that in my conversations with her. But, you know, there's, there's room for people to disagree. And that's something I wouldn't normally say because I do think I do feel really strongly about inclusion in, for trans athletes. But I think Renee in specific, she's entitled to her views.
[28:05]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, she certainly earned the right to, to have an opinion on that. That, that, I mean, to me that was like the major twist of the book that this, you know, kind of heroic figure in and the community at large and who fought so hard, went to court for the right to play, now believe that trans women should not be allowed to compete with women on women tours and in women leagues and all that. How did you feel when you heard her opinion on that?
[28:42]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I, I think I wrote in the book that I was gobsmacked, which sounds a little dramatic, but it's, it's true. I mean, I had.
[28:51]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, it'd be like if I don't, you know, you know, I don't know. Jesse Jackson came out in his later years against integration or something. You know, like, it's like, it's like. What are you, what are you talking about?
[29:02]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, it's like you, you fought this hard for something and it's kind of stunning that you don't believe in it. But yeah, so she does have a little carve out in her views for trans, trans feminine athletes who have not gone through like male puberty. So I'll just say that because that's an important exception to her. But yeah, I mean, I was pretty taken aback. There had been times she had commented to the press. So like, this wasn't totally new as an idea to me that she had these views, but I think to the extent, extent of it, you know, it was new. And I think she, I was also interested that she had taken the step of going to the Women's Tennis association and like presenting to a gender eligibility working group, like her views on the matter. So she felt really strongly about this.
[29:57]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, like I said, I mean that was a real, real, a real twist to this book that I didn't see coming. And I, I want to get into Martina a little bit. Martina Navratilova, interesting figure. You know, she really is an icon in the, in the, in the gay rights movement. And it was very vocal in her, you know, advocacy for gay rights and, and in, in, I would say human rights in general in a number of instances. And she of course came out, has come out repeatedly very much against trans women, trans women's rights to participate in, you know, women's leagues and sports and stuff. It didn't sit well with me. Just. It did sit well with me. Not even so much her position because. And I'll contrast it with somebody else, Sophie Cunningham. Well, okay, yeah, I know, obviously, I know you disagree with Sophie Cunningham's position. Sophie Cunningham is a, a WNBA player who, who recently said she believes that, that, that trans women should not be allowed to play in the WNBA and in women, blah, blah, blah. And I saw the footage of that and the contrast with me, and maybe you'll disagree was Sophie's position felt more philosophical, plainly philosophical, and that I think she felt the argument here is inclusion versus equality. Like fair play. Right, Fair, sure.
[31:39]
Julie Kligman
I think that's how it's been set up. Yeah.
[31:41]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And I think Sophie, you know, came down on the side of Fred that I don't think it's fair. Now I think this is my take. I heard her. I don't think she engenders any animosity towards trans people in general. Perhaps she does, but that didn't come across to me. I don't think it was a hate filled statement. I think she felt it was a fairness issue. I don't think she felt trans people shouldn't exist or they're terrible, blah, blah, blah. The comments from Martina that I've seen in the book and elsewhere seem to be filled with contempt. It seems to be more than just, I don't think it's fair for them to play with us. There seems to be a judgment on their character and almost a disdain for trans people. And I think that's what didn't sit well. With me more than her position was kind of the emotion behind it. Maybe I'm misreading Martina. Maybe, you know, Sophie Cunningham, I saw the footage of Martina. I did not see footage that adds. That adds context. But I don't know. What was your take on Martina's position?
[32:53]
Julie Kligman
Yeah. So I will say first, I think I do disagree with you about Sophie, but I see the distinction you're trying to draw. And I think Martina has used language that Sophie has been careful not to use. I mean, at least I get the impression Sofie has had media training on this. And. But, you know, that's just speculation. I, I think with regard to Martina, you do see her using this, like, kind of like language that disgusts me, honestly. Like she's referring to trans women as cheaters. She, you know, in the sports world, which I, I don't think is true. Like, as we saw with Renee, it comes from, like, a genuine desire to play sports. And Martina also, I think it's.
[33:40]
Paul Knepper
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it's.
[33:42]
Julie Kligman
No, the.
[33:43]
Paul Knepper
These people, trans people, they. They want to be a. Believe that they are women first, and then what is secondary. I am women and I want to compete in sports, not I want to compete in sports. And so I'm going to become a woman to do it. Right, right, exactly. I don't care. I don't care how much money is on the table. I mean, nobody is. Nobody is changing their sex so that they could compete in a sport. That's just. That's just bonkers.
[34:13]
Julie Kligman
Right? That is exactly right. And yeah, I think Martina has different feelings on that. And I also think, you know, she. She goes further than a lot of people on this issue, not everyone, but a lot of people in that she thinks that, like, trans women have no place in women's locker rooms. And so, so she is like, you know, she might say her concerns are specific to sports, but I do think they extend beyond that. And, yeah, so she was a really interesting person to talk to for this book, especially because Renee, after she retired from tennis, coached Martina for a number of years.
[34:51]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, there was a fascinating aspect of that, too. I think, somewhat coming from Renee, as I interpreted it, that it almost seems like she's different. I don't know it. And I want to choose my language carefully here because I. All due respect to Renee, but it. I don't know if it's. Maybe it's somewhat. I think probably somewhat at least a generational thing, because I don't. I don't know what. Maybe that there were so few trans people when she went through the procedure, but it. It seemed like the disconnect between her and the trans community almost that she couldn't relate. We talk a little bit, the language, but. But I think there was also a side to Renee that she didn't want to be seen as a trans person. She just wanted to be seen as a woman.
[35:43]
Julie Kligman
That's exactly right.
[35:45]
Paul Knepper
Right. And so I guess. I guess maybe that's what I'm getting at, that how she seems different. Whereas I think typically trans people are very. Whether it's the pronouns they use or how the way. Just the way they identify themselves is often as a trans person or as someone. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying.
[36:03]
Julie Kligman
Absolutely.
[36:04]
Paul Knepper
Expressing this. Well, but it's.
[36:05]
Julie Kligman
You are.
[36:06]
Paul Knepper
And. And maybe it's maybe also with her. She has been a woman for 50 years now, you know, and so. And. And very few since. Very few people. First of all, she's in her 90s. Very few people live that long.
[36:20]
Uber Eats Advertiser
Right.
[36:20]
Paul Knepper
And very few people were having sex changes at. When she did. There are so other few people that have been, you know, a trans person for that long that maybe, I don't know, maybe after 50 years, you no longer do identify as a trans person because you've been that woman for so long. And. And I don't know, but I. I guess what I'm getting is it just seemed like there was something. Whether it was how she viewed herself or depicted herself as. As somewhat removed from the trans community.
[36:55]
Julie Kligman
Right. I. Yeah, I think that's an accurate way of reading the situation because, you know, it's not that Renee denies she's trans or regrets, you know, transitioning. Like, neither of those things are true, but she does kind of separate herself a little bit from other trans people. And by saying, like, yes, I am a woman. I'm not. You know, she prefers that greatly. Like trans woman, for example.
[37:22]
Uber Eats Advertiser
Right.
[37:23]
Julie Kligman
And I think that's always been the case. I don't even think it's just because she's been transitioned for so long now. I think that was true even in the 70s that she felt that way. And, yeah, I think with Martina, it's like. I think that's one of the reasons that Martina can accept Renee without accepting other trans people.
[37:44]
Paul Knepper
That's why I was getting that there. There's something. It seems like she's different.
[37:47]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, Martina said something to me about how, like. Oh, like nowadays, like, trans people get upset if you use the wrong pronouns or this or that and like, she just has a carve out in part because Renee is her friend. And, like, she knows Renee knows her integrity, knows her, her personality really. And like, you know, we're all more comfortable with our friends than we are with, like, abstract notions of, like, certain groups of people. It's human nature. But I do wish Martina could extrapolate, like, okay, there are other trans people who also have integrity and who also, you know, just want to play and care about their sport.
[38:31]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And. And I did, you know, I did bring up Sophie Cunningham. I shared my thoughts on. Yeah, I would like to know what your thoughts are on what she said.
[38:40]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I mean, I think to me, it's sort of interesting that Sophie and others are having this conversation at all because there's never been a trans woman in the wnba. And honestly, with all the restrictions in place, I can't imagine there will be a trans woman in the WNBA anytime soon. So that's one thing. The other thing I think is that, you know, I don't know Sophie. I don't know what's in her brain or behind her views or her values. So, you know, she. She may have a genuine, like, preoccupation about fairness in the league. I think that could be true. But I also think it's true that this is sort of like the Riley Gaines, and I'm talking about the swimmer who opposed Lia Thomas. I do think it is a little bit like the Riley Gaines school of, like, right wing. Grifting is a strong word, but maybe grifting. And you've seen this especially because Riley Gaines has shown her support for Sophie Cunningham. So I do think it's a reasonable connection to draw where. Yeah, I think some athletes see this as an opportunity to kind of, like, capitalize on and it, you know, maybe preparing for a career after their sport. And I don't know if that's true or not. Like. Like I said, like, I. I've never met Sophie. I don't. I don't know her intentions off the court, but I do think it's a dangerous game to be, like, coming from a platform as a WNBA player and like, advocating against trans people, regardless of whether your mind is on fairness or not.
[40:18]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, that makes sense. Does. Does Renee want to be viewed as a pioneer or a role model?
[40:28]
Julie Kligman
It's a good question. I think she does and she doesn't. She is proud of the fact that she played on tour for five years, as she should be. She is proud of the fact that she has a pension from the WTA. She is Proud of those things. And at the same time, she doesn't want to be, like, in a spot where her legacy is, like, subsumed by, like, here's a list of trans pioneers. Like, she doesn't want to be, want to have her opinions and her legacy watered down to, like, okay, here are 10 role models in the trans community. I think that really doesn't appeal to her, but I do think, like all of us, she wants to be remembered and she wants to be seen as someone who pushed the boundaries of what was possible in sports, even if, even if she no longer agrees with what she did.
[41:18]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, it's really interesting, but I always go back to who I'm not one to judge. Right. I mean, I, I, I haven't walked in her shoes and she's had her own journey, is entitled to her own opinions and.
[41:33]
Julie Kligman
Right.
[41:35]
Paul Knepper
Do you know if she's read the book?
[41:37]
Julie Kligman
She hasn't yet. And I know that because I haven't given her a copy yet, because my copies haven't come in yet, any day now. But yeah, I, the, I told her the first thing I'm going to do when I get my copies is send her one. I'm going to, you know, send it with a personal thank you note. And I do think she will read it. I think like many of us, she is curious about the things being written about her and, you know, especially something of this significance, an entire book. And so I do think she will eventually read it. I am very anxious about what she'll think, of course.
[42:14]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. I mean, I think on the whole, it's a positive portrayal, I would think. Thank you. You know, I mean, every time, that's got to be a weird thing, right? Because we have our ideas and our, you know, image of ourself, and for someone else to come in from the outside and kind of give their, give their take has to be interesting. And I, I would think inevitably there'll be some things she doesn't like.
[42:39]
Julie Kligman
I agree. Yep.
[42:40]
Paul Knepper
But I would assume, you know, I think you were very fair to her.
[42:44]
Julie Kligman
Thank you.
[42:45]
Paul Knepper
And I think you were, you were fair and you were honest and you gave her, certainly you gave her a voice in the book, so.
[42:52]
Julie Kligman
Thank you.
[42:54]
Paul Knepper
I'm curious to know what she thinks of it, too.
[42:56]
Julie Kligman
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'll have to write something about it, depending on how it goes, but, yeah, I mean, it's a scary prospect reading a whole book about yourself, so I don't envy her. I wouldn't want to do it for myself, but yeah, I mean, thank You. That's all I can do. Right. Is try to portray her fairly and give her a voice like you said. So, yeah, hopefully she's able to appreciate and respect that effort, even if she doesn't agree with 100% of the results of that effort.
[43:27]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, exactly. The last thing I want to ask you, Julie, I think this is probably the most important question I'm going to ask you is what do you think are the biggest misconceptions about trans people?
[43:40]
Julie Kligman
One is definitely what we were talking about, that, like this the desire to transition is rooted in deception somehow. Two is another thing we're talking about that all trans people are the same, which is clearly not true. Third is just more generally, like, I think a lot of people see trans people as, like, freaks of some sort or, you know, it's just. It's really no different from being anybody else. I mean, everyone just wants to find, like, the conditions and the circumstances of their lives that'll make them the happiest. And, and I, you know, I think it's a very relatable urge, even if you're not trans. So, yeah, I mean, I think, like, we're not transitioning to upset anybody else or to make anyone else uncomfortable or to act as predators, certainly in a woman's bathroom or locker room. You know, I think the biggest thing to understand is trans people are just people. And if you know one trans person, you know, one trans person, it's, you know, a very individual thing.
[44:42]
Paul Knepper
Right. Okay. Well, I thank you so much, Julie, for, for coming on the podcast. I'm glad you did this book. I appreciate your candor in the book about, you know, your own circumstances. That's. That's always difficult, I think. And so I think it's an important book and I. I wish you the. The best of luck with it.
[45:02]
Julie Kligman
Thank you so much, Paul. I appreciate it.
[45:04]
Paul Knepper
Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network. We are an academic podcast network with
[45:09]
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[45:11]
Paul Knepper
If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform.
[45:16]
Julie Kligman
You can browse all of our episodes on our website, newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us
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[45:23]
Paul Knepper
ebooksnetwork, and subscribe to our weekly Substack newsletter at newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.
[45:45]
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Summary7 min read

Podcast Summary:

New Books Network
Episode: Julie Kliegman, "Finding Renée Richards: The Groundbreaking Story of Tennis’s Trans Pioneer"
Host: Paul Knepper
Date: August 11, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Paul Knepper interviews author and journalist Julie Kliegman about her book, Finding Renée Richards, which chronicles the life and impact of Renée Richards—one of sports history's first openly transgender athletes and a central figure in the debate about trans inclusion in women’s sports. The episode explores Richards’ personal journey, the nuances of her legacy, and the ongoing complexities around trans athletes in contemporary sports. Kliegman, herself a non-binary trans writer, brings both journalistic and personal perspectives to unpacking the enduring resonance and contradictions in Richards’ story.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Is Renée Richards? (02:20–03:14)

Richards transitioned in the 1970s and famously sued for her right to compete in the US Open women’s draw.
Her victory marked a pivotal moment for the inclusion of trans athletes in competitive sports.
Julie Kliegman was drawn to Richards’ story while reporting on contemporary trans athletes, seeking historical context for current debates.

“I was really interested in her story because I had been covering trans athletes of today... and I was just looking for more context to like, understand our current moment and how we got to these attacks on trans athletes.” —Julie Kliegman (02:20)

2. Kliegman’s Personal Connection & Richards' Individualism (03:14–05:58)

Kliegman reflects on relating to Richards as a newcomer to the trans community but notes Richards often defies contemporary norms, especially regarding names and pronouns.
Richards insisted on being referred to by her birth name, “Richard,” in pre-transition contexts, contrary to most trans people’s wishes today.

“Ultimately I decided... if she wants to be called Richard or Dick Raskin, I mean, that's her prerogative.” —Julie Kliegman (04:49)

The episode stresses the importance of not generalizing the trans experience—each journey is deeply individual.

3. Early Life & Gender Identity (06:34–10:38)

Richards, born Richard Raskin, was athletic, charismatic, and presented as stereotypically masculine, yet struggled with gender identity from a young age.
She experimented with her sister’s clothing, describing both trauma and personal volition in exploring her identity.

“The seeds of like his trans identity were sewn pretty early.” —Julie Kliegman (06:42)

The host and guest question psychoanalytic theories that attribute gender identity to childhood trauma.

4. The Struggle of Transition in the 1960s–1970s (10:38–13:47)

Richards’ journey was marked by secrecy, stops and starts, difficulty accessing medical care, and significant personal upheaval.
Her experience highlights how rare and misunderstood gender transition was at the time.

“It was really hard at times for him to find medical care. Even harder than it is today at times... It was a long, drawn out process before he considered his transition into Renee complete.” —Julie Kliegman (10:38)

5. Family Impact and Personal Sacrifice (14:48–16:59)

Richards’ transition and cross-country move had profound effects on her young son, Nicholas.
Kliegman addresses the difficult decision between living authentically and upholding traditional parental expectations.

“Would you rather have like a trans parent or like a dead parent?... It was really a matter of life and death for Renee and I think for a lot of trans people...” —Julie Kliegman (16:03)

6. Tennis Career—Before and After Transition (18:17–19:03)

As Richard, Richards was a highly ranked amateur but prioritized a medical career.
Richards competed on the pro women’s circuit after transitioning, facing outcry and legal challenges.

7. Outing, Legal Battle, and Cultural Backlash (19:03–22:01)

Outed during a California tournament via press coverage led by Tucker Carlson’s father, Richards became a media sensation.
She had to publicly affirm her womanhood and fight legal battles to compete.

“It was like, oh, this is a man masquerading as a woman. Sort of like the narrative you hear today about, like, oh, trans people are men masquerading as women to get, like, prize money.” —Julie Kliegman (19:03)

Richards won her lawsuit and competed in the US Open—a ruling aided, in part, by her age and support from Billie Jean King.

8. Could Richards' Victory Happen Today? (20:48–22:01)

Kliegman doubts a similar lawsuit would succeed now given contemporary legal and cultural backlash.
Factors aiding Richards (her age, high-profile allies) might not apply today.

9. Playing Level and Community Response (23:54–25:59)

Richards achieved a world ranking of 20th in singles—impressive, but not dominating.
The opposition was real but lessened by her age and King’s advocacy; aggression from other players ebbed after her initial acceptance.

10. Generational Differences and Personal Contradictions (26:31–29:56)

Kliegman describes Richards today as living quietly, having retired from medicine.
Unexpectedly, Richards now opposes full inclusion of trans women in women’s sports—a view that shocked Kliegman.

“I was gobsmacked... you fought this hard for something and it’s kind of stunning that you don't believe in it.” —Julie Kliegman (28:41)

Richards’ exception: she supports trans women’s participation if they haven’t experienced ‘male puberty.’

11. Community Divides: Martina Navratilova and Sophie Cunningham (29:56–40:17)

Navratilova, herself an LGBTQ+ pioneer, opposes trans women’s participation in women’s leagues, using derisive language, per Kliegman.

“She goes further than a lot of people in that she thinks trans women have no place in women’s locker rooms.” —Julie Kliegman (34:13)

The conversation compares Navratilova’s rhetoric with that of athlete Sophie Cunningham (WNBA), who argues from fairness but without perceived animosity. Kliegman is skeptical of Cunningham’s motivations, observing such takes are rare, even hypothetical, in women's sports.

12. Richards' Relationship to the Trans Community (35:43–38:31)

Richards, though not denying her trans status, prefers to be seen strictly as a woman, somewhat at odds with today’s embrace of trans identity as both/and.
Her stance partly explains why Navratilova can make an “exception” for Richards.

“It’s not that Renée denies she’s trans or regrets transitioning... but she does kind of separate herself a little bit from other trans people.” —Julie Kliegman (36:55)

13. Mixed Feelings About the Label "Role Model" (40:27–41:18)

Richards wants her accomplishments recognized but resists being reduced to symbolic status or being lumped with other trans pioneers.

“She doesn’t want to be... in a spot where her legacy is... Here’s a list of trans pioneers. Like, she doesn’t want to have her opinions and her legacy watered down.” —Julie Kliegman (40:27)

14. Misconceptions about Trans People (43:40–44:41)

Kliegman concludes by addressing widespread myths:
- That transitioning is deceptive
- That all trans people’s experiences are the same
- That trans people are somehow ‘other’ or ‘predators’
She emphasizes the ordinariness and individuality of trans lives.

“Everyone just wants to find... the conditions... that’ll make them the happiest... If you know one trans person, you know one trans person.” —Julie Kliegman (44:41)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On individuality in the trans community:
“Everybody’s an individual. You can’t say all trans people are the same…” —Paul Knepper (05:58)
On pioneering but having complex views:
“It’d be like if Jesse Jackson came out in his later years against integration or something.” —Paul Knepper (28:50)
On the emotional toll of transition:
“It was really a matter of life and death for Renee... That’s something that’s not always super appreciated.” —Julie Kliegman (16:03)
On misconceptions:
“We’re not transitioning to upset anybody else or to make anyone else uncomfortable or to act as predators... Trans people are just people.” —Julie Kliegman (44:41)
On legacy:
“She wants to be seen as someone who pushed the boundaries of what was possible in sports, even if she no longer agrees with what she did.” —Julie Kliegman (41:18)

Timed Segment Highlights

Renée’s background: 02:20–03:14
Richards' unique approach to pronouns/names: 04:49–05:58
Transition struggles and early gender identity: 10:38–13:47
Legal battle and media outing: 19:03–22:01
Modern court case comparisons: 20:48–22:01
Navratilova and opposition details: 29:56–38:31
Reflections on misconceptions & closing thoughts: 43:40–44:41

Conclusion

Julie Kliegman’s interview paints a richly nuanced portrait of Renée Richards—her tenacity, complexities, and contradictions—all set against the backdrop of a shifting battle over trans inclusion in sport. The episode challenges listeners to see Richards not just as a historical icon or a symbol in contemporary debates, but as a highly individual person whose legacy continues to provoke, surprise, and inspire.

Recommended for: Listeners interested in sports history, trans rights, social change, and the intersection of athletic careers with broader questions of identity and community.

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Transcript134 lines

[00:00]
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[01:16]
Apple Card/Uber Eats Advertiser
Welcome to the New Books Network
[01:21]
Paul Knepper
welcome back to New Books Network. My name is Paul Knepper, and today my guest is Julie Kligman, author of the new book Finding Renee Richards, the Groundbreaking Story of Tennis's Trans Pioneer. This is Julie's second book and her second time on the podcast, I'm happy to say. Her first book is called Mind Game. They were previously the copy chief for Sports Illustrated and a copy editor at the Ringer. Their writing on a wide variety of topics has appeared in outlets including Sports Illustrated, the Washington Post, the Ringer, the Book Forum, Defector, Vulture, buzzfeed, Vox, on and on. Julie, welcome back to the podcast.
[02:02]
Julie Kligman
Hey, thanks so much for having me back.
[02:04]
Paul Knepper
Sure. I'm excited to dive into this book, I guess. To start off, for those that aren't familiar with Renee and her story, can you kind of give the broad strokes of who Renee Richards is and why you were interested in her story?
[02:21]
Julie Kligman
So Renee Richards is a transgender woman who sued in 1977 for her right to compete in the US Open women's draw. And she was a tennis player before her transition and wanted to continue playing tennis once she started identifying as a woman. And so she fought for that right. And I was really interested in her story because I had been covering Trans athletes of today for Sports Illustrated at the time. And, you know, I was just looking for more context to like, understand our current moment and how we got to these attacks on trans athletes. And I was vaguely familiar with Renee's story, but I didn't know all the details. And so I was really excited to start diving into that and see what, what I could learn from it.
[03:15]
Paul Knepper
And you, you know, you're very forthcoming in the book about your, your personal life. You identify as a non, non binary trans person. And I wonder if, if given your identity, if was kind of going into this, was Renee someone that you looked up to?
[03:34]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I mean, I, I think when you're. I, I was pretty new at the time to identifying as non binary and trans. And like, I think, I don't know if I was looking up to her exactly, but I think there is a tendency to, like, look toward elders in the community. Yeah, totally. So I think there was that sense of like, oh, here's someone who, you know, like the subtitle says she was a pioneer.
[04:03]
Paul Knepper
Right? Yeah, so. But she's been through it. She's been through to some extent where you're going through. And so, yeah, it makes sense. Renee's given name was Richard Raskin. And as you talk about in the book, it's a lot of things that make Renee interesting are that in a number of ways she somewhat veers from the norms of the trans community, how they identify themselves or how they want to be referred to. One example of that is she wanted you to refer to her, you know, pre transition by her given male name of Richard. Yeah. And I wonder, could you talk a little bit about that and how that's unusual within the community.
[04:50]
Julie Kligman
Yeah. So I wrote the first draft of this book using the name Renee Richards throughout and she, her pronouns throughout. And then I was talking to her when I was fact checking some things and, you know, this came up as well. I was like, just FYI, this is how I handled your name. And she was really, really upset and, you know, by that choice. And I think that was a little bit jarring for me because, yeah, I'm used to, in today's world, most trans people want you to use their chosen name and, you know, current pronouns, no matter when you're referring to them. Uh, so I was like, taken aback a little by this request. But ultimately I decided, you know, like, if she wants to be called Richard or Dick Raskin, I mean, that's, that's her prerogative. I mean, there's a lot in this book she doesn't have any say over. It's not an authorized biography, but respecting how she wanted to be referred to is something I did think I could and should do.
[05:58]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And I, I found it as a good reminder that we can't put everybody in a box. We can't. You know, we can't. You know, trans people often are, you know, they come together for advocacy purposes and certainly have certain commonalities, but that everybody's an individual. You can't say all trans people are the same or one or, you know, so it was, that was a good reminder for me to keep everybody, keep it in perspective that everybody in every group and community is an individual and has their own individual preferences.
[06:33]
Julie Kligman
Absolutely. Yeah.
[06:34]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. So talk a little bit about, about Dick Raskin. Who was, who was Dick Raskin?
[06:43]
Julie Kligman
So he was an athletic, charismatic kid and he grew up with, you know, a very strong mother figure. His father was kind of took the backseat more in parenting, it sounds like. And he also had an older sister named Josephine and they had an interesting relationship, a troubled at times relationship. And Dick really always kind of sought an outlet in tennis. He started playing around age 10 or 11. And so, yeah, like I, I think he was also from an early age interested in wearing girls clothing and you know, the seeds, this isn't true for everybody, but for him, the seeds of like his trans identity were sewn pretty early.
[07:43]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And you know, something that really jumps out too is he was in very ways, in, in many ways kind of the stereotypical male in a way. Right. He was, he was a great athlete. He was charismatic, popular, handsome, very intelligent.
[07:59]
Julie Kligman
Yes.
[08:00]
Paul Knepper
Not, you know, again, we're stereotyping here what people would think of as a masculine person. He came across that way. Know, you mentioned that his relationship with his sister was complicated. I, I think Renee referred to it as abusive.
[08:18]
Julie Kligman
That's. Yeah, that is the right word for it. Yeah. Beat around the bush.
[08:22]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And you know, one of the things was she, she would, she would treat him like a girl and dress him up like a girl. And I think like, I don't know, maybe the, the Freudian, the old school Freudian psychologist would latch onto that and say, you know, that's what led Dick to, you know, become Renee and identify as a girl and that it was, it was the result of trauma. What, what are your thoughts on that theory?
[08:51]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I don't really subscribe to that theory, though it certainly is possible there's some sort of connection because I think being forcibly dressed in women's clothes did allow him to, you know, put it together that he enjoyed that. Right. Of course. Enjoyed it of his own volition more. But I don't think it's like a one to one, like the trauma, like, caused this. No. Because I think this could happen to any number of people and most of them would not change their gender over it.
[09:23]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, agreed. You mentioned he started kind of experimenting of his own volition. His sister's stuff aside, his own volition would wear women's clothing at like, how old. How old was he when he started to kind of play around with that?
[09:40]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, he was. He was pretty little. Like, we're talking, like early grade school, I believe. And yeah, he would just kind of take some clothing from his sister's room and lock himself in the bathroom and see what he looked like. And, you know, that would bring him some peace of mind, even as he was worried about getting caught.
[10:04]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And then it's. It's just very interesting to read. To read and absorb kind of the process. Right. From going from that to starting to think of yourself as. As a woman and then slowly telling people and. And we're talking about, you know, the. Him growing up in the 60s. And this isn't, you know, the 2000 and 20s. How difficult was that struggle for Dick emotionally?
[10:38]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, it was something he kept very private for a very long time, understandably so. And his transition was very stop and start very much like, okay, let me get on hormones, let me get off hormones, et cetera, et cetera. He had all these different surgical procedures. So he was transitioning for about a decade. It was really hard at times for him to find medical care. Even harder than it is today at times. And. Yeah, so it was like this long, drawn out process before he considered his transition into Renee complete.
[11:22]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, that was fascinating. I mean, even to the point where he, you know, like, started the hormones, as you said, and then completely reversed course and got married to a woman. And like. Yeah, it was like. It was like. It was just like reading it. It was painful, you know, sad, because it was like he was desperate to. Kept kind of reaching out for that, you know, again, stereotypical or typical, what people would say, typical, certainly at that time, especially lifestyle and identification and trying to make it work with a woman and trying to, you know, make it look work for him as a man. But he just wasn't. It was just never gonna be comfortable that it was never something in him. Had. Renee had become too powerful.
[12:14]
Julie Kligman
Right, Exactly. I think that's how Renee would describe it too. And, you know, she, you know, Dick really had been reaching for that masculinity. And, you know, I think kind of once he achieved, like, the pinnacle of what people think is, like, peak masculinity, like being married to a beautiful woman, having a child, you know, becoming a father. I think it was then that he was like, oh, I, you know, really can't do this.
[12:43]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And I would add to that being a good earner. Right.
[12:46]
Julie Kligman
Yeah.
[12:47]
Paul Knepper
As a provider, as. As a. A very well respected doctor.
[12:52]
Julie Kligman
Yeah.
[12:53]
Paul Knepper
Again, a stereotypically male profession, I would say, at that time. But eventually, of course, he. It did. Renee was too powerful and. And he went through with it. How. You touched on this a little. But how common were. How common were sex changes at that time?
[13:13]
Julie Kligman
Definitely not very common there. You know, it. It wasn't unheard of. Of course, there had been trans people as long as, you know, humans have existed. But, like, since it was so hard, as we talked about, to get, like, the necessary medical care, it was more rare at that time. And for a lot of people, when Renee started making headlines a couple years after her transition, that would be the first time a lot of people had heard of transgender people or at the time, transsexual people.
[13:47]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, right, right. Even the term wasn't. Wasn't known. Right. Transsexual or transgender.
[13:53]
Julie Kligman
Yeah. Like, most people, I think, would say they did not know a trans person in their life or at least know they had one in their life until, you know, Renee was on the scene.
[14:04]
Paul Knepper
And it's interesting. It's. It's almost like Renee is detached from that in a way. I get the sense that she doesn't even really identify with the word at least trans.
[14:15]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, we had some interesting talks about, like, terminology. She definitely identifies most with the term transsexual. And trans, to her is sort of like, I. I think sort of like the word queer and that it feels more like nebulous and modern. I just see it as a shortened version of transsexual or transgender. But, you know, other people may have disagreements there, but yeah, she's definitely not someone who's adopted more modern nomenclature in general.
[14:49]
Paul Knepper
So she. Ultimately, she. No more back and forth. She's. She's full Renee. She goes. She goes through the procedures, the hormones, everything, and I think very reasonably kind of moves out to the west coast to kind of start over. Yeah, it's. It's hard. It's hard to do that. You know, reading that kind of. The sad part about that to me was. Was her son.
[15:18]
Julie Kligman
Yeah.
[15:20]
Paul Knepper
Nicholas. Nicholas.
[15:21]
Julie Kligman
Yep.
[15:23]
Paul Knepper
And for one, that had to be very confusing for Nicholas again, particularly at that time. And I don't know. And, and she left, right. I mean she went across the country even. Forget, forget the sex change. If you're right up and leaves, it leaves you and goes across the country. That's got to be somewhat traumatic.
[15:47]
Julie Kligman
Absolutely.
[15:48]
Paul Knepper
And so I don't know, you know, Nicholas, it sounded like just never really, you know, live kind of a sad life in a way. And it yeah, obviously didn't end well. But I. How did you get a sense for how that affected him?
[16:03]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I think like you said, like any parent just kind of up and moving across the country is, is painful. You know, he was so young at the time, like a toddler I think. And yeah, the sex change on top of that, I think he was very confused. I think as he got older he did harbor a lot of like bitter feelings about that at times. You know, it's tricky. It ultimately comes down to though, like would you rather have, and this is going to sound really pithy but like would you rather have like a trans parent or like a dead parent? Because you know, Renee as Dick Raskin, you know, did have suicidal thoughts and you know, kind of like self harm behavior. So it was really a matter of life and death for Renee and I think for a lot of trans people and that's something that's not always like super appreciated.
[17:00]
Paul Knepper
Absolutely. And I don't think it has to be that extreme where it's dead or friends. It could just be a very unhappy parent. Absolutely transparent. And I think every child is better off with a transparent who's happy and comfortable in their own skin than a very unhappy parent. Because that, that, I mean that, that's an unhappy parent is detrimental to, to a child. I mean there's just no way around that. So Totally. So Renee goes, she goes cross country, she goes to California and in. Before long she finds herself. She had that competitive spirit. She was a, she's the competitor and she had to get back into the game and, and plays this tournament in, in, in California where she's, she's recognized by certain people. She was somewhat known on the tennis circuit. The whole, the whole cameo of Tucker Carlson's father was this weird, weird anecdote.
[17:58]
Julie Kligman
Yes.
[17:59]
Paul Knepper
And I'm like, oh yeah, of course Tucker Carlson's father was an asshole like in. But yeah, so I guess I want to go back a little bit. How, how good of a tennis player and how committed of a tennis player was Dick Raskin?
[18:18]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I mean he was pretty good. He was Ranked pretty highly in, like, the Eastern men's, like, amateur tennis circuit. He was never a pro as a man, but, like, also at that time, a lot of tennis players were not pros because it was before the Open era, where kind of, like, the compensation and, you know, tournament eligibility and all of that changed. So tennis kind of took a back seat to ophthalmology for Dick as he grew up. But, you know, he was a very competitive player.
[18:54]
Paul Knepper
And then. So Rene is outed after this tournament. And. And what was the reaction, both in the tennis world and the public at that time?
[19:04]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I. I think in the tennis world there had been, like, murmurings that, you know, this was happening with Renee, but it was still, you know, I think it sent, like, U.S. open officials into, like, a tizzy, like, what if she tries to enter our tournament? And, you know, in the public, I think it was probably mostly a reaction of confusion or, like, what did this mean? Was. Because especially the way that Tucker Carlson's father, Richard, presented it, it was like, oh, this is a man masquerading as a woman. Sort of like the narrative you hear today about, like, oh, trans people are men masquerading as women to get, like, prize money or scholarships or, you know, things like that that are obviously untrue. So I think Renee held a press conference at her home tennis club, and she was. She kind of had to clear the air and say, like, hey, I'm a woman.
[20:06]
Paul Knepper
This is.
[20:07]
Julie Kligman
You know, this is how I feel. This is what has happened in my life.
[20:12]
Paul Knepper
And, yeah, I'm not just a dude with a wig. Right.
[20:17]
Julie Kligman
Exactly. Exactly. And it sucks that she had to do that. But I do think it was. Know, I. I think she had a good idea to do that. I do think it was kind of necessary at the time.
[20:29]
Apple Card/Uber Eats Advertiser
Yeah.
[20:29]
Paul Knepper
And then, you know, you mentioned the US Open. She ends up suing to. To. To play in the US Open and is successful with her. With her suit, and. And they allow her to play, and then she's on the tour. You know, I mean, the first thing that came to mind was, do you think, would a trans person wins such a suit now?
[20:48]
Julie Kligman
I really don't think so. I think even at the time, she had a few things working in her favor that not every trans person might have. I mean, she had the support of Billie Jean King, which I think was probably pretty pivotal in the judge's decision to let her play. There was also the matter of her age. It was constantly under discussion. She was in her 40s by the time she transitioned. And So I think she was perceived as less of a threat to the other woman on tour. Billie Jean King was younger. Martina Navratilova was younger. Chrissy Everett was younger, certainly by a lot.
[21:22]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, a lot younger.
[21:23]
Julie Kligman
Yeah. Yeah. So it was the sense of, like, okay, Renee is sufficiently womanly, whatever that means. And also she isn't gonna likely keep pace with the very top players on the tour. And so it was a, it was a decision by the judge that was very specific to her. And yeah, I mean, today we've seen court cases go differently. I mean, just recently, like, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that like, school level bans on trans people competing were legitimate. So, yeah, it's a much different world than it was 50 years ago, certainly.
[22:02]
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[22:33]
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[23:17]
Julie Kligman
Hear that?
[23:18]
Paul Knepper
That's now crispier McCrispy strips meeting creamy Caesar sauce sounds extra crispy caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time. Fascinated. Because, you know, I. I feel like in every other civil rights realm, we've progressed.
[23:40]
Julie Kligman
Yeah.
[23:41]
Paul Knepper
And that's an example of how it seems like we've gone backwards.
[23:46]
Julie Kligman
Yeah.
[23:48]
Paul Knepper
So how, and how. How good of a player was Renee on the women's tour? How successful was she?
[23:55]
Julie Kligman
She was pretty good. I mean, she peaked at 20th in the singles rankings. The computerized rankings were fairly new at the time. She peaked at 20. She was also a pretty competitive doubles player. So yeah, I mean she wasn't this like overarching threat to the integrity of the game, but she wasn't bad either.
[24:17]
Paul Knepper
There was some opposition though within the game. Right. I mean there were women who spoke out.
[24:21]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, there were a couple of women who like wore T shirts at one of their tournaments where she was playing. They're like, you know, denigrating her. There was one woman who like left the court in protest. So there was opposition here and there. But I think like largely a lot of the discomfort and opposition was before she won her lawsuit and before Billie Jean kind of got people in line.
[24:46]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. You know, you mentioned she got up to. She was ranked as high as 20th in the world in the computer rankings. And of course she was in her 40s at this time, which is well past your prime in tennis years. Yeah. How, how good could she have been? If, let's say Dick Raskin transitioned to Renee Richards at the age of 18 and was practicing regularly and dedicated herself fully to a career on the tour, would she have been the best player in the world?
[25:18]
Julie Kligman
You know, I still don't think so. I mean, maybe I'm wrong here and we'll obviously never know, but I think she was never known as being like the quickest on her feet. But what she didn't have in speed, she made up for in power, especially with her like left handed serve that like a lot of people talk about as being really distinctive. So I think she certainly could have ranked higher than 20th for sure. Which, you know, that's getting to the point where like you are beating top players at least occasionally. So.
[25:48]
Paul Knepper
Right.
[25:48]
Julie Kligman
I, I think she could have been more of a force on tour. It might have looked very different for her. She also might never would have won her lawsuit, you know, because we talked about age being a potential factor there.
[26:00]
Paul Knepper
Right. And, and Billie Jean King and whoever else might not have been as receptive if they thought she was a real threat to, to beat them.
[26:10]
Julie Kligman
That's right. Exactly.
[26:11]
Paul Knepper
Billy Jean and the rest of them are very competitive themselves.
[26:15]
Julie Kligman
Absolutely.
[26:15]
Paul Knepper
Of course, Renee, you know, you, you talked to Renee sounds like a number of times for this book. And she's in her 90s now. What, what is your impression of Renee Richards now? What is her life like? What, what do you think of her as a person?
[26:32]
Julie Kligman
She lives a really quiet life now with a platonic partner and she finally retired from ophthalmology a few years ago. She had stopped doing surgeries many, many years ago. But she finally fully retired only a few years ago. So I think as a journalist, I kind of got lucky with the timing because here was someone newly with a lot of free time on her hands who was also in a point of reflecting on her life and her career. So it was a real privilege to get to know her over the course of writing this book. And the book is obviously so much better for the fact that she agreed to participate in it. There are so many moments where not knowing what was going on in her head, you know, that would have been a struggle to write clearly in the book. So, yeah, I mean, Renee and I, it's. Have an interesting relationship, a really positive one overall. But we do have some disagreements, as I'm sure we're going to get into here, about trans athlete eligibility. So, you know, I, I wanted to be transparent about that in my conversations with her. But, you know, there's, there's room for people to disagree. And that's something I wouldn't normally say because I do think I do feel really strongly about inclusion in, for trans athletes. But I think Renee in specific, she's entitled to her views.
[28:05]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, she certainly earned the right to, to have an opinion on that. That, that, I mean, to me that was like the major twist of the book that this, you know, kind of heroic figure in and the community at large and who fought so hard, went to court for the right to play, now believe that trans women should not be allowed to compete with women on women tours and in women leagues and all that. How did you feel when you heard her opinion on that?
[28:42]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I, I think I wrote in the book that I was gobsmacked, which sounds a little dramatic, but it's, it's true. I mean, I had.
[28:51]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, it'd be like if I don't, you know, you know, I don't know. Jesse Jackson came out in his later years against integration or something. You know, like, it's like, it's like. What are you, what are you talking about?
[29:02]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, it's like you, you fought this hard for something and it's kind of stunning that you don't believe in it. But yeah, so she does have a little carve out in her views for trans, trans feminine athletes who have not gone through like male puberty. So I'll just say that because that's an important exception to her. But yeah, I mean, I was pretty taken aback. There had been times she had commented to the press. So like, this wasn't totally new as an idea to me that she had these views, but I think to the extent, extent of it, you know, it was new. And I think she, I was also interested that she had taken the step of going to the Women's Tennis association and like presenting to a gender eligibility working group, like her views on the matter. So she felt really strongly about this.
[29:57]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, like I said, I mean that was a real, real, a real twist to this book that I didn't see coming. And I, I want to get into Martina a little bit. Martina Navratilova, interesting figure. You know, she really is an icon in the, in the, in the gay rights movement. And it was very vocal in her, you know, advocacy for gay rights and, and in, in, I would say human rights in general in a number of instances. And she of course came out, has come out repeatedly very much against trans women, trans women's rights to participate in, you know, women's leagues and sports and stuff. It didn't sit well with me. Just. It did sit well with me. Not even so much her position because. And I'll contrast it with somebody else, Sophie Cunningham. Well, okay, yeah, I know, obviously, I know you disagree with Sophie Cunningham's position. Sophie Cunningham is a, a WNBA player who, who recently said she believes that, that, that trans women should not be allowed to play in the WNBA and in women, blah, blah, blah. And I saw the footage of that and the contrast with me, and maybe you'll disagree was Sophie's position felt more philosophical, plainly philosophical, and that I think she felt the argument here is inclusion versus equality. Like fair play. Right, Fair, sure.
[31:39]
Julie Kligman
I think that's how it's been set up. Yeah.
[31:41]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And I think Sophie, you know, came down on the side of Fred that I don't think it's fair. Now I think this is my take. I heard her. I don't think she engenders any animosity towards trans people in general. Perhaps she does, but that didn't come across to me. I don't think it was a hate filled statement. I think she felt it was a fairness issue. I don't think she felt trans people shouldn't exist or they're terrible, blah, blah, blah. The comments from Martina that I've seen in the book and elsewhere seem to be filled with contempt. It seems to be more than just, I don't think it's fair for them to play with us. There seems to be a judgment on their character and almost a disdain for trans people. And I think that's what didn't sit well. With me more than her position was kind of the emotion behind it. Maybe I'm misreading Martina. Maybe, you know, Sophie Cunningham, I saw the footage of Martina. I did not see footage that adds. That adds context. But I don't know. What was your take on Martina's position?
[32:53]
Julie Kligman
Yeah. So I will say first, I think I do disagree with you about Sophie, but I see the distinction you're trying to draw. And I think Martina has used language that Sophie has been careful not to use. I mean, at least I get the impression Sofie has had media training on this. And. But, you know, that's just speculation. I, I think with regard to Martina, you do see her using this, like, kind of like language that disgusts me, honestly. Like she's referring to trans women as cheaters. She, you know, in the sports world, which I, I don't think is true. Like, as we saw with Renee, it comes from, like, a genuine desire to play sports. And Martina also, I think it's.
[33:40]
Paul Knepper
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it's.
[33:42]
Julie Kligman
No, the.
[33:43]
Paul Knepper
These people, trans people, they. They want to be a. Believe that they are women first, and then what is secondary. I am women and I want to compete in sports, not I want to compete in sports. And so I'm going to become a woman to do it. Right, right, exactly. I don't care. I don't care how much money is on the table. I mean, nobody is. Nobody is changing their sex so that they could compete in a sport. That's just. That's just bonkers.
[34:13]
Julie Kligman
Right? That is exactly right. And yeah, I think Martina has different feelings on that. And I also think, you know, she. She goes further than a lot of people on this issue, not everyone, but a lot of people in that she thinks that, like, trans women have no place in women's locker rooms. And so, so she is like, you know, she might say her concerns are specific to sports, but I do think they extend beyond that. And, yeah, so she was a really interesting person to talk to for this book, especially because Renee, after she retired from tennis, coached Martina for a number of years.
[34:51]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, there was a fascinating aspect of that, too. I think, somewhat coming from Renee, as I interpreted it, that it almost seems like she's different. I don't know it. And I want to choose my language carefully here because I. All due respect to Renee, but it. I don't know if it's. Maybe it's somewhat. I think probably somewhat at least a generational thing, because I don't. I don't know what. Maybe that there were so few trans people when she went through the procedure, but it. It seemed like the disconnect between her and the trans community almost that she couldn't relate. We talk a little bit, the language, but. But I think there was also a side to Renee that she didn't want to be seen as a trans person. She just wanted to be seen as a woman.
[35:43]
Julie Kligman
That's exactly right.
[35:45]
Paul Knepper
Right. And so I guess. I guess maybe that's what I'm getting at, that how she seems different. Whereas I think typically trans people are very. Whether it's the pronouns they use or how the way. Just the way they identify themselves is often as a trans person or as someone. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying.
[36:03]
Julie Kligman
Absolutely.
[36:04]
Paul Knepper
Expressing this. Well, but it's.
[36:05]
Julie Kligman
You are.
[36:06]
Paul Knepper
And. And maybe it's maybe also with her. She has been a woman for 50 years now, you know, and so. And. And very few since. Very few people. First of all, she's in her 90s. Very few people live that long.
[36:20]
Uber Eats Advertiser
Right.
[36:20]
Paul Knepper
And very few people were having sex changes at. When she did. There are so other few people that have been, you know, a trans person for that long that maybe, I don't know, maybe after 50 years, you no longer do identify as a trans person because you've been that woman for so long. And. And I don't know, but I. I guess what I'm getting is it just seemed like there was something. Whether it was how she viewed herself or depicted herself as. As somewhat removed from the trans community.
[36:55]
Julie Kligman
Right. I. Yeah, I think that's an accurate way of reading the situation because, you know, it's not that Renee denies she's trans or regrets, you know, transitioning. Like, neither of those things are true, but she does kind of separate herself a little bit from other trans people. And by saying, like, yes, I am a woman. I'm not. You know, she prefers that greatly. Like trans woman, for example.
[37:22]
Uber Eats Advertiser
Right.
[37:23]
Julie Kligman
And I think that's always been the case. I don't even think it's just because she's been transitioned for so long now. I think that was true even in the 70s that she felt that way. And, yeah, I think with Martina, it's like. I think that's one of the reasons that Martina can accept Renee without accepting other trans people.
[37:44]
Paul Knepper
That's why I was getting that there. There's something. It seems like she's different.
[37:47]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, Martina said something to me about how, like. Oh, like nowadays, like, trans people get upset if you use the wrong pronouns or this or that and like, she just has a carve out in part because Renee is her friend. And, like, she knows Renee knows her integrity, knows her, her personality really. And like, you know, we're all more comfortable with our friends than we are with, like, abstract notions of, like, certain groups of people. It's human nature. But I do wish Martina could extrapolate, like, okay, there are other trans people who also have integrity and who also, you know, just want to play and care about their sport.
[38:31]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And. And I did, you know, I did bring up Sophie Cunningham. I shared my thoughts on. Yeah, I would like to know what your thoughts are on what she said.
[38:40]
Julie Kligman
Yeah, I mean, I think to me, it's sort of interesting that Sophie and others are having this conversation at all because there's never been a trans woman in the wnba. And honestly, with all the restrictions in place, I can't imagine there will be a trans woman in the WNBA anytime soon. So that's one thing. The other thing I think is that, you know, I don't know Sophie. I don't know what's in her brain or behind her views or her values. So, you know, she. She may have a genuine, like, preoccupation about fairness in the league. I think that could be true. But I also think it's true that this is sort of like the Riley Gaines, and I'm talking about the swimmer who opposed Lia Thomas. I do think it is a little bit like the Riley Gaines school of, like, right wing. Grifting is a strong word, but maybe grifting. And you've seen this especially because Riley Gaines has shown her support for Sophie Cunningham. So I do think it's a reasonable connection to draw where. Yeah, I think some athletes see this as an opportunity to kind of, like, capitalize on and it, you know, maybe preparing for a career after their sport. And I don't know if that's true or not. Like. Like I said, like, I. I've never met Sophie. I don't. I don't know her intentions off the court, but I do think it's a dangerous game to be, like, coming from a platform as a WNBA player and like, advocating against trans people, regardless of whether your mind is on fairness or not.
[40:18]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, that makes sense. Does. Does Renee want to be viewed as a pioneer or a role model?
[40:28]
Julie Kligman
It's a good question. I think she does and she doesn't. She is proud of the fact that she played on tour for five years, as she should be. She is proud of the fact that she has a pension from the WTA. She is Proud of those things. And at the same time, she doesn't want to be, like, in a spot where her legacy is, like, subsumed by, like, here's a list of trans pioneers. Like, she doesn't want to be, want to have her opinions and her legacy watered down to, like, okay, here are 10 role models in the trans community. I think that really doesn't appeal to her, but I do think, like all of us, she wants to be remembered and she wants to be seen as someone who pushed the boundaries of what was possible in sports, even if, even if she no longer agrees with what she did.
[41:18]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, it's really interesting, but I always go back to who I'm not one to judge. Right. I mean, I, I, I haven't walked in her shoes and she's had her own journey, is entitled to her own opinions and.
[41:33]
Julie Kligman
Right.
[41:35]
Paul Knepper
Do you know if she's read the book?
[41:37]
Julie Kligman
She hasn't yet. And I know that because I haven't given her a copy yet, because my copies haven't come in yet, any day now. But yeah, I, the, I told her the first thing I'm going to do when I get my copies is send her one. I'm going to, you know, send it with a personal thank you note. And I do think she will read it. I think like many of us, she is curious about the things being written about her and, you know, especially something of this significance, an entire book. And so I do think she will eventually read it. I am very anxious about what she'll think, of course.
[42:14]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. I mean, I think on the whole, it's a positive portrayal, I would think. Thank you. You know, I mean, every time, that's got to be a weird thing, right? Because we have our ideas and our, you know, image of ourself, and for someone else to come in from the outside and kind of give their, give their take has to be interesting. And I, I would think inevitably there'll be some things she doesn't like.
[42:39]
Julie Kligman
I agree. Yep.
[42:40]
Paul Knepper
But I would assume, you know, I think you were very fair to her.
[42:44]
Julie Kligman
Thank you.
[42:45]
Paul Knepper
And I think you were, you were fair and you were honest and you gave her, certainly you gave her a voice in the book, so.
[42:52]
Julie Kligman
Thank you.
[42:54]
Paul Knepper
I'm curious to know what she thinks of it, too.
[42:56]
Julie Kligman
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'll have to write something about it, depending on how it goes, but, yeah, I mean, it's a scary prospect reading a whole book about yourself, so I don't envy her. I wouldn't want to do it for myself, but yeah, I mean, thank You. That's all I can do. Right. Is try to portray her fairly and give her a voice like you said. So, yeah, hopefully she's able to appreciate and respect that effort, even if she doesn't agree with 100% of the results of that effort.
[43:27]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, exactly. The last thing I want to ask you, Julie, I think this is probably the most important question I'm going to ask you is what do you think are the biggest misconceptions about trans people?
[43:40]
Julie Kligman
One is definitely what we were talking about, that, like this the desire to transition is rooted in deception somehow. Two is another thing we're talking about that all trans people are the same, which is clearly not true. Third is just more generally, like, I think a lot of people see trans people as, like, freaks of some sort or, you know, it's just. It's really no different from being anybody else. I mean, everyone just wants to find, like, the conditions and the circumstances of their lives that'll make them the happiest. And, and I, you know, I think it's a very relatable urge, even if you're not trans. So, yeah, I mean, I think, like, we're not transitioning to upset anybody else or to make anyone else uncomfortable or to act as predators, certainly in a woman's bathroom or locker room. You know, I think the biggest thing to understand is trans people are just people. And if you know one trans person, you know, one trans person, it's, you know, a very individual thing.
[44:42]
Paul Knepper
Right. Okay. Well, I thank you so much, Julie, for, for coming on the podcast. I'm glad you did this book. I appreciate your candor in the book about, you know, your own circumstances. That's. That's always difficult, I think. And so I think it's an important book and I. I wish you the. The best of luck with it.
[45:02]
Julie Kligman
Thank you so much, Paul. I appreciate it.
[45:04]
Paul Knepper
Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network. We are an academic podcast network with
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[45:11]
Paul Knepper
If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform.
[45:16]
Julie Kligman
You can browse all of our episodes on our website, newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us
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Paul Knepper
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