Celebrating "Piece by Piece: How Stephen Sondheim Made Musical Puzzles Come Alive" with Stacy Innerst

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Episode: Celebrating "Piece by Piece: How Stephen Sondheim Made Musical Puzzles Come Alive" with Stacy Innerst

Host: Mel Rosenberg

Guest: Stacy Innerst (Illustrator)

Date: July 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Mel Rosenberg interviews acclaimed illustrator Stacy Innerst about his latest work on Piece by Piece: How Stephen Sondheim Made Musical Puzzles Come Alive, written by Aaron Frankel. Through a lively, insightful conversation, they discuss the art of picture book illustration, the creative parallels between music and illustration, Sondheim’s genius, and Innerst's personal journey as an artist.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis of "Piece by Piece"

• Project Background:
  Stacy was matched with Aaron Frankel, the book’s author, via their shared literary agent, Susan Cohen, who "put Aaron and I together for this book. And I didn’t hesitate. As soon as I got the manuscript, I thought, this is meant to be." — Stacy Innerst (04:42)
• Connection to Sondheim:
  Stacy is a passionate music and Sondheim fan:
  "He just immersed himself in what it means to be a creative person...I was just thrilled to be able to illustrate something about a person that was so inspiring in so many ways." — Stacy (01:56)

2. The Visual Approach & Artistic Process

• Puzzle Motif:
  The book’s art is unified by the theme of puzzles, an essential Sondheim metaphor:
  "I decided early on, because the puzzle was such an important part of the story, that I was going to introduce these puzzle pieces as elements throughout the book... and I tried to make them characters as well." — Stacy (06:22)
• Collage Technique:
  Stacy describes a hands-on, collage-heavy approach: "I like to cut up pieces from other things... slap them together and then I can move them around and create a composition that way. For me, it’s really a process." — Stacy (07:41)
• Interaction of Three and Two Dimensions:
  "The puzzle pieces are like cut from it. So then it becomes a two dimensional rendition." — Mel (07:11)

3. Creative Collaboration: Authorship & Illustration

• Illustrator as Storyteller:
  Stacy emphasizes the close relationship between words and images:
  "When you read a book, you’re forming images in your mind anyway... I have the great luxury of being able to try to draw those pictures and not just form them in my mind." — Stacy (10:19)
• Parallel to Sondheim & Bernstein:
  Mel draws a parallel to Sondheim’s role on West Side Story, highlighting collaboration in both music and books.

4. Stacy’s Personal Journey

• Childhood & Motivation:
  • Grew up as a quiet twin: "My twin brother... had the verbal skills. And I was quiet... He does the talking for us." (11:51)
  • Drawing as Expression: "I developed this sort of quiet practice of drawing things I wanted, drawing things the way I wanted them to be." (12:37)
• Art as Self-Discovery:
  First drawings focused on desire and longing—for instance, custom-drawn bicycles to claim independence as a twin.
  "If I wanted a certain thing... I would customize and try to draw it. Just try to draw what I saw." — Stacy (13:02)
• Move to New Mexico:
  Although initially resistant, New Mexico’s landscape became central to his worldview: "The big sky... the feeling of infinite space... I lived there for 25 years." — Stacy (15:41)

5. Artistic Confidence and Development

• From Realism to Expressiveness:
  "When I started, I wanted to render things as they were... But children’s books really helped free me in terms of expressing myself in a childlike way... that gave me a lot of confidence to be more gestural and free in the way I do things." — Stacy (17:59)
• Books as Inspiration:
  Reading with his children and exposure to illustrators like Lane Smith and John Klassen inspired him to move from editorial illustration to picture books.

6. Picture Book Craft: Challenges & Lessons

• First Picture Book:
  M is for Music was his first, despite having an editorial background ("It’s an unusual picture book..." — 29:59)
• Adapting to the Medium:
  Stacy needed to adjust to the more open, emotive facial expressions and interpretive storytelling of children's books:
  "As I’ve gone along, I’ve paid much more attention to faces and faces that are open and not quite so expressing anything... I like the reader to be able to put a little bit of themselves into it." — Stacy (31:49)

7. Sondheim as Mentor & Role Model

• Hammerstein’s Influence on Sondheim:
  Discusses the importance of honest feedback and mentorship:
  "He didn’t patronize them. He told him exactly what was good and what was bad." — Stacy (24:13)
• Learning to Listen:
  "If you have a mentor like that and you actually don’t have... your ego isn’t formed to the extent where you can actually listen to other people and respect their opinion. That’s huge." — Stacy (24:39)

8. On Creativity, History, and Aspiration

• Biographical Subjects:
  Stacy gravitates toward biographies about creative figures:
  "I love doing biographies about creative people. Musicians, artists, writers. Anybody that is engaged in this... pursuit to make something beautiful." — Stacy (36:05)
• Writing His Own Work:
  He is currently working on fiction, "more poetic... slightly more abstract, because that’s just the way I think." — Stacy (36:51)

9. Advice for Aspiring Artists

• On "Illustration" vs. "Art":
  "Don’t draw those lines, so to speak, between illustration and art. Look at everything and make something, you know, as Sondheim did." — Stacy (38:34)
• Eclectic Influences:
  "I look at proto Renaissance painters... I look at folk art... German expressionism... and all of these amazing illustrators." — Stacy (38:34)
• The Collage Metaphor:
  Mel sums up Stacy's approach: "It’s the collage and puzzle all over again."
  "Exactly. It is. It’s a great metaphor for what we do." — Stacy (39:43)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I think Sondheim is one of the...most articulate about the creative process...a renaissance man in many ways." — Stacy Innerst (01:56)
• "When you read a book, you’re forming images in your mind anyway." — Stacy (10:19)
• "Are you a five year old at heart? No question. No question." — Stacy (25:20)
• "Look at everything and make something, you know, as Sondheim did." — Stacy (38:34)
• "It’s the collage and puzzle all over again." — Mel (39:43) | "Exactly. It is. It’s a great metaphor for what we do." — Stacy (39:46)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:56 – Stacy on the excitement and challenge of doing justice to Sondheim
• 04:42 – How Stacy was selected to collaborate with Aaron Frankel
• 06:22 – Discussion of the puzzle pieces visual theme
• 07:41 – Detailed description of collage technique
• 13:02 – Childhood drawing as self-expression
• 15:41 – Impact of moving to and living in New Mexico
• 17:59 – Growth from realism to more expressive children’s illustration
• 19:43 – Reading and showing spreads from Piece by Piece
• 24:13 – Sondheim’s mentorship from Oscar Hammerstein
• 25:20 – The importance of childlike curiosity in art
• 31:49 – Adjusting facial expressions and storytelling in picture books
• 38:34 – Advice for aspiring artists and the importance of diverse influences
• 39:43 – The metaphor of collage and puzzle in artistic creation

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Conclusion

Mel Rosenberg’s conversation with Stacy Innerst provides a captivating behind-the-scenes look into the making of Piece by Piece, the art and heart of picture books, and the deeply personal journey of a visual storyteller inspired by—and paying tribute to—the creative legacy of Stephen Sondheim.

Stacy’s advice to young artists echoes Sondheim’s own creative ethos: be open, draw inspiration from everywhere, and "just make something your own out of it."

Transcript

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[Stacey Innerst]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Hello, everybody.

[Stacey Innerst]

Hello, world.

[Mel Rosenberg]

This is a special day for me because I get to interview one of the most incredible children's artists on the planet Earth. And welcome to Stacey Innerst.

[Stacey Innerst]

Oh, thanks. It's a pleasure to be here, Mel.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Thank you. Well, we just started. I mean, tell me in half an hour.

[Stacey Innerst]

All right, I'll give you an update.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So. Okay. And so before I forget, I'm Mel Rosenberg. I always forget. I am the host of the Children's Literature channel of the New Books Network. And we are here celebrating Stacy's brand new book and show everybody and brag about it a little bit.

[Stacey Innerst]

All right. Happy to. Happy to have an opportunity to brag. This is piece by piece written by Aaron Frankel, who actually lives near me. We've met a few times and that doesn't always happen, but she lives in the Pittsburgh area where I live. And I was thrilled to illustrate this book because I'm a giant music fan and I think Sondheim is one of the. He's so articulate about the creative process. I mean, I just read some of his quotes and he just immersed himself in what it means to be a creative person and to make things not just music, but he was, you know, he was a renaissance man in many ways. But I was just thrilled to be able to illustrate something that about a person that was so inspiring in so many ways.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So we'll just mention I'm going to also make a Backup recording. So I should. We are being recorded. Absolutely. And that's a good thing. Or being recorded twice, actually. I need that backup. So a little bit about how this happened. I mean, you know, I say you've illustrated, but illustrated, in your case, you are the artist of about 20 picture books. And I'm really glad that sometimes the book says art by Stacey Inerst. And part of the reason that I do not usually interview artists and illustrators is because I know absolutely zilch about the process. So you can make fun of me, tease me, correct me, as you like, but I find your artwork incredible. And you remind me of luminaries like Myra Kalman, whom I adore, and.

[Stacey Innerst]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Because that's what I aspire to be is somebody that can communicate visually in such a visceral way, the way some of my favorite illustrators do. And she's certainly one of them. Her storytelling abilities are amazing. So that's what I strive to do, is tell a story in pictures more than anything else.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's incredible. So Aaron Frankel's wonderful text. How did it land on your palette?

[Stacey Innerst]

Actually, we were both represented by the same agent, Susan Cohen, at Writer's House, and I was with Susan for many years, and she's responsible for sending me many books. She was magnificent. And she also represented Aaron, but she retired. I think it was one of her last. One of the last contracts that she put together was to put Aaron and I together for this book. And I didn't hesitate. Obviously, it was. As soon as I got the manuscript, I thought, this is meant to be. So I jumped into it with both feet.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Can you show some of the artwork? Because not everybody. People are also listening in the podcast, which means you have to run out and buy this book. It is gorgeous. It's nothing less than gorgeous. It does Sondheim justice, which is a very high level of praise for me.

[Stacey Innerst]

It was a lot of pressure, too, to do Sondheim justice. So I felt the pressure, but this is the jacket. And then I continued the, you know, the cityscape on the back cover. I really wanted to just evoke that sense of time in New York City and on Broadway and do it in my own interpretive way, you know? And it's like everything I do is fairly. Is mine, to put it lightly. This is the opening, this one.

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[Stacey Innerst]

Can you see this? This is spotlight at work. And this sort of sets the tone for the process. And I've got. I decided early on, because the puzzle was such an important part of the story that I was going to introduce these puzzle pieces as elements throughout the book. And so I cut them out of paper and just sort of pasted them on whatever paintings I was making. And I tried to make them characters as well. So the puzzle pieces are sort of interacting with each other and kind of dancing. And he's moving them around on his piano. That's the opening.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And some of them are in the light, some are in the shadow, some of them semi shadow. And also, you're going to correct me, but these are the things that strike me as an author who cannot draw a. I cannot draw anything is that it's a three dimensional rendition and the puzzle pieces are like cut from it. So then it becomes a two dimensional rendition.

[Stacey Innerst]

Yeah. And I've always loved to collage things. I mean, I always feel if I'm going to start with a rectangle, a white rectangle, and I'm going to make a picture, I just feel. I feel restricted somehow. So I like to cut up pieces from other things, little sections of things that I like, and just sort of slap them together and then I can move them around and create a composition that way. So for me, it's really a process. And I think that's why I related to this story so well, because the process is almost the same. I'm not putting myself in Sondheim's league by any stretch, but.

[Mel Rosenberg]

No, but I mean, you are asking the questions that I wanted to ask you, which is how similar. Okay, so Sondheim ended up writing his own music and lyrics. But he started out, and there's an allusion to this in Aaron's manuscript, by having the fortune, I call it fortune to write the lyrics for west side Story. He was later a little bit critical of his own writing, but I think it's young genius, nothing less than that.

[Stacey Innerst]

No question. Yeah, and that's an interesting point. It's, you know, he. He regarded himself as a person in a certain place and a certain time and made himself available to what, you know, whatever inspiration was in the, you know, the zeitgeist or whatever. Whatever was there. He was, he was seizing it. And that's why he was such an. You know, he had that long lifespan. But he also had this creative. Just this creative arc that, you know, it was really a reflection of the. The time that he was living in. And. And west side Story is a perfect example of that. I saw that when I was a kid and my. I have two older sisters and they were both in love with west side Story. I Mean, it became, you know, they had nothing to do with that New York sort of gang life or anything, but. But they were. They were just enamored with that story.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So I just saw it again for the umpteenth time. But. So the question is, how closely does the work between a lyricist and the musician reflect the work between the author of the story and the artist doing the visual rendition?

[Stacey Innerst]

Excellent question. Yeah. That is why I love doing picture books so much is because it's a very true collaboration. And when you're working with a good author, it's just that process of reading a book. When you read a book, you're forming images in your mind anyway. You're creating the characters. When you read a work of fiction or even nonfiction, you're creating images in your mind. And I have the great luxury of being able to try to draw those pictures and not just form them in my mind.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I'm an author who has trouble imagining the pictures. Another thing is that people don't know that usually, unless you live two blocks from the artist, you don't have that much active collaboration. You have the text, you know, you build this framework, and then the artist takes it and does his or her or their thing with it. Right. And probably Sondheim and Bernstein collaborated much more closely on the west side Story. Let's go back to Stacey. I'm in awe of your art, and you wrote that it happened because you wanted to distance yourself from your talkative twin brother. Did I miss that?

[Stacey Innerst]

No. No. That was a big part of it. Honestly. I am a twin and my twin brother. We're fraternal. We don't even really resemble each other. We barely look like family. But we love each other very much, and we're very close. And we were very close when we were growing up, but he had the verbal skills. And I was quiet. I was always quiet, and I was sort of. I kind of accepted that role, as, you know, this is my spokesman. This is my mouthpiece. He does the talking for us.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So it was like Queen Victoria. We are not amused.

[Stacey Innerst]

Correct. Everything was formed.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Stacey wants more peas on his potatoes.

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Right?

[Stacey Innerst]

Honestly, that's not far from the truth. So I developed this sort of quiet practice of drawing things and drawing things that I wanted, drawing things that I desired, drawing things the way I wanted them to be. Not that I had an unhappy childhood, but you always have that longing. And so I just.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Hold on. I need an example here, Stacey.

[Stacey Innerst]

An example. Okay. Well, I'll give you a pretty. Just a pretty quotidian example of If I wanted a bike, you know, and there's a certain bicycle that I wanted. And. And that's part of being a twin, too, is that we shared everything. Everything we got. Like, we would get one thing to share, you know, we'd get one bike. You know, eventually we. We kind of differentiated ourselves. But if I wanted a certain thing and I wanted it to be mine, you know, then I would customize and try to draw it. Just try to draw what I saw. And that came really early. I mean, that form of expression came. I don't remember. When I started drawing, I was really, really small, and I used to draw everywhere. I drew in inappropriate places. I remember drawing. My parents kept it, but they had this beautiful world atlas, a giant book, you know, color plates. And I wrote all over that thing when I was a kid and drew pictures. And then we moved. When I was a child, we moved from Pennsylvania to New Mexico. And I was. I was so angry that we were moving because I loved where we lived. It was paradise. And I had no idea what New Mexico meant. I thought it was we were moving to the moon. So I. You know, I wrote all over everything I wrote on the moon. I drew on the moving sign in front of our house. You know, the realtor sign. It was. I wrote in the. With a stick, in the mud.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You know, I saw those things, Stacy. There's a story there, by the way.

[Stacey Innerst]

Oh, no question.

[Mel Rosenberg]

No question.

[Stacey Innerst]

In fact, I've written that down. I've actually written that down as a possible book. Just that. And it was just the idea that I don't want to move. I do not want to move. So we'll see. We'll see what transpires. I am writing some.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I can see it now. Not for sale.

[Stacey Innerst]

Oh, I love it. I love it.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Stacey Innerst]

That's an image right there. And it's throwing rocks at the sign.

[Mel Rosenberg]

This house stinks.

[Stacey Innerst]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Don't buy it. Okay, so New Mexico turned out to be an artist haven for you.

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[Stacey Innerst]

It did. I went kicking and screaming. I was 12 years old. I had no idea what to expect. And it became a real part of who I am now in many, many ways. And this was a long time ago, you know, when. When New Mexico was pretty rough and ready. It was Route 66. It was, you know, it was a desert town. Albuquerque is where we moved. And I just thought, what is this? But I just came to love it so much. The big sky, just the feeling of infinite space there. Coming from Pennsylvania, where there are trees everywhere. And then Going to a place where you literally felt like you were visible all the time because you couldn't hide. You were just out in this vastness. And I just learned to love that so much. So I lived there for 25 years.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Wow.

[Stacey Innerst]

And how did you.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Your parents were both literary. Your father an author and a journalist, and your mom a librarian. But you have kind of abandoned the pen for the brush.

[Stacey Innerst]

I have to a certain extent. I still think in a really kind of literary way, you know, which I think also kind of pushed me into doing books, picture books. But, yeah, I've never felt as confident writing as I have drawing and painting. For me, that's never been a struggle. A little bit of a struggle. I mean, because I want it to be good, but. But I can communicate visually much more easily than I can in a written way.

[Mel Rosenberg]

The authors I know have a lot of angst with their writing. Is it good? Is it good enough? Is it worthy? But your artwork is so confident to me. Did you always feel confident about your. Your art?

[Stacey Innerst]

Boy, that's a good question, too. You're asking great questions, Mel.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Be careful, because you might have to pay me afterwards.

[Stacey Innerst]

Well, yeah, I don't have much, but I'll pay you with compliments. But, yeah, I've always been fairly confident. Never supremely confident. But I, like most artists, when I started, I wanted to render things as they were, you know, I wanted to come as close to form and light and doing things just as, you know, just as other people see them. And I thought that was my goal for a long time. And I. You know, I attempted to do that, and I did very realistic kind of paintings, and. But then I don't know when it happened. I think children's books helped a lot. Really helped free me in terms of expressing myself in a childlike way, in a way that's going to entertain whoever is looking at it. You know, Even if they're 4 years old, 3 years old, they're going to be amused, and they're going to understand what I'm trying to say. And I think that really freed me up, and that gave me a lot of confidence to be more gestural and free in the way I do things.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And I should add here that one of your most gorgeous books on George Gershwin, I interviewed Suzanne Slade. So your artwork has already been on the show, and I think now is a good time to show a couple of spreads from your new book on Sondheim. And maybe Aaron won't mind if you read a few lines of text.

[Stacey Innerst]

I'm sure, I'll see what I can do. I'm not going to do her words justice, but so what? I've got one of them. Well, the, the first. The opening lines are. Are kind of pivotal. And she says writing Songs for the Theater was Stephen Sondheim's favorite puzzle to solve. Choosing notes, choosing words, putting it all together piece by piece. And then I love the way she organized this book because she actually gave me a lot of freedom to take some of his shows and do my interpretations of them. So the second page is the Seurat painting that inspired Sunday in the park with George. And her words are when the pieces fit together, the puzzle came alive. Music and lyrics flying off the page and onto the stage. What could be more exciting? And again, there's the puzzle piece. So they show up everywhere.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Gorgeous. One more spread and then we want to go back to five year old Stacy.

[Stacey Innerst]

Okay, we have a plan here. Here is a. This is. You know, as a child, I'm not sure this is going to read terribly well because it's kind of. I just got his hands resting on his father's hands as they played the piano together. I wanted. And Aaron really made that connection with his parents and his father. And his parents divorced when he was young. And that was a traumatic experience for him. And I'm sure it formed him in a big way. So I wanted to establish that. I wanted to establish that relationship as Aaron did with his parents and his father. And it says, as a boy, Stevie wanted to know how things worked. He put his hands on his father's as they glided across the keys and watched the record player go round and round as show tunes filled their New York City apartment.

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[Stacey Innerst]

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[Mel Rosenberg]

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[Stacey Innerst]

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[Mel Rosenberg]

One of the things in the book that shines is this great fortune in moving into the neighborhood of Oscar Hammerstein and befriending his son. I mean, otherwise, who knows, Sondheim might have become a piano tuner or maybe a second rate musician and lyricist because Hammerstein had the guts not to say, oh, this is this high school stuff that everybody's bragging about is not really as wonderful as it could be.

[Stacey Innerst]

Exactly.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Stacey Innerst]

He didn't patronize them. He didn't, you know, he told him. He told him exactly what was good and what was bad.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And in many people's careers like mine, it took me 60 years to realize that, you know, that my writing wasn't good enough. And one of the things that high school Stephen understood was that he should and could listen to Oscar and write better.

[Stacey Innerst]

Right, Exactly. I mean, if you have a mentor like that and you actually don't have, you know, your ego isn't formed to the extent where you can actually listen to other people and respect their opinion. That's huge. It's huge in the creative process.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So I wonder where he had that ability, but he certainly did to grow from one stage to another. So the five year old question, Stacy, I ask all of the people I interview, the creatives, you work on picture books. Such a juvenile thing.

[Stacey Innerst]

Are you a Five year old at heart, no question. No question. In fact, yeah, it's funny because I've been doing this for so long that it's second nature to me and I don't really question it. But when I tell people out in the world what I do, they just. It's like there's a. This disconnect that's like, wait a minute, you know, you're, you're making picture books for children and, you know, it's just kind of a strange thing where I don't feel the need to explain myself anymore. It's like, yep, yeah, that's right. That's what I do.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So you had this decent occupation illustrating magazines and then what happened? Did you have an Oscar Hammerstein? How did you segue back into something that you love so much?

[Stacey Innerst]

Oh, well, yeah, I worked for newspapers and magazines and I was doing editorial illustrations, you know, grown up subjects, opinion pieces, all kinds of, you know, dark subject matter, which I still love, actually. I love to do that sort of thing. But I had kids and I was reading to them every night and I was looking. We'd get just piles of books from the library and I was looking at these books ranging from the golden age of picture book illustration. I was reading them and we were looking at books that I had read to me when I was a kid.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Stacey, I need the specifics here.

[Stacey Innerst]

Oh, specifics, yeah, examples. Okay, you've got it. I read the Wind in the Willows, we read Leonard Weisgard and. Oh, just. I mean, I just saw these pictures that I thought, this is the best art being made. And it was also Lane Smith. I saw Lane Smith, who also made that transition from editorial to picture book art. And honestly, that was kind of a revelation for me because he did these sort of strange, almost, you know, grotesque kind of pictures and told hilarious stories with them. And I thought, oh, that's what I want to do. I want to, you know, I want to, I want to be able to make books just like these that I'm looking at.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Was there, was there like a moment like when you were reading to the kids and you said, oh, my goodness, this is what I have to do?

[Stacey Innerst]

Yeah, it was many, many moments. It was every time we brought home books from the library, I was looking at these things and emerging people like John Classen who, you know, people that were doing really amazing things that were really pushing the envelope in terms of storytelling for kids. And yeah, it was just this series of moments where I thought, I'm going to see what this world looks like. So I was actually living in Seattle at the time, and someone wrote to me and said, you should be illustrating for. I had things in the newspaper there. And they wrote to me and said, you should be illustrating for children's books. And I thought, yeah, I really should. So I took my editorial portfolio to a woman who. In San Diego. My grandmother lived in San Diego, and we were visiting her, and I took my portfolio to Harcourt, which was headquartered in San Diego at the time. And I met with Jeanette Larson, who was a magnificent editor there, and still the person I kind of point to as the person who really got me into this world. And she gave me my first picture book. She said, these are very editorial. They're kind of adult themes and everything, but I see a picture book in there. And she gave me my first book contract for M is for Music with Kathleen Kroll.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Wow. Yeah. Did you have that to wave around for a minute?

[Stacey Innerst]

You know what? I might. Let's see. I do, I do. And this one, the hardcover is out.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And. And this is the first one that you illustrated. And it's so used. Stacy, open it anywhere.

[Sam's Club Advertiser]

All right.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Open it at B. B.

[Sam's Club Advertiser]

At B.

[Mel Rosenberg]

The Beagles and the Easter Mules.

[Stacey Innerst]

Well, first, let me show you. This is the kind of book that she gave me. I've got in the beginning. It's Nietzsche, Charlie Parker, Helen Keller, and Frank Zappa. So you can see that it's an unusual picture book.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But let's go to B. Oh, you know, or go to G with Gilbert o' Sullivan on the side and the guitars and the.

[Stacey Innerst]

You know what's hilarious? I grabbed the first copy that I found, and this is, like, the one book that is. The pages are. Are out of order.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. Wow.

[Stacey Innerst]

Yeah. So. But anyway, I found B. Look. Luckily, I found B. And B is for Beatles. They're the Beatles. And. And bees. And so it's. You can see this is my. My first transition from editorial illustration into children's books.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And they. Yeah, sorry. But, Stacy, they say that you have to learn to. To do the art for picture books. It's different than regular. How different was. Yeah, but how different was it for you after having seen hundreds of picture books? Was there, like, things that you had to practice and learn, or did it come naturally?

[Stacey Innerst]

It's really. It's just understanding the vernacular, really, you know, and understanding. Like, there are a lot of images in here that are pretty abstract. And most of the reviews were good for this book, which I was thrilled by. It was reviewed in the New York Times, but, yeah, this by Paul Zelinsky, who I admire tremendously. So they got it. I think picture bookmakers got it, but they were also probably a little puzzled by it because it was.

[State Farm Advertiser]

It was.

[Stacey Innerst]

It's unusual. I think as I've gone along, I've paid much more attention to faces and faces that are open and not quite so expressing anything. I think early on, especially in editorial art, I found faces of means to express emotion and, you know, really define the person. And as I. As I've gone further in picture books, I don't pay quite as much attention to a specific intention for each character in terms of the facial expression. I like to. I like the reader to be able to put a little bit of themselves into it. So I'm trying to make them more accessible in that way.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And your gorgeous book on Joni Mitchell. Well, I should tell everybody that you've won numerous awards for your artwork. Oh, my goodness. Another splendid book.

[Stacey Innerst]

Thank you. Yeah, this is Joan Mitchell, the abstract expressionist. And again, I have been so fortunate.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. What do you mean? She did write a few songs. Stacy.

[Stacey Innerst]

Oh, this is a different Joanie. This is a.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Is it?

[Stacey Innerst]

Yeah. This is Joan Mitchell, the painter.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I missed that. Yeah.

[Stacey Innerst]

And I really, really, really wish. I'm hoping to do a book about Joni Mitchell, too, because, I mean, obviously, as a musician, there are a few.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I was sure that was Joni Mitchell. No, and you're not alone.

[Stacey Innerst]

You're not alone. Many, many people thought, you know, that it was Joni Mitchell, but this. So she's sort of been rediscovered. She was one of the early abstract expressionists, one of the first women, and honestly just made magnificent paintings, which I was super intimidated to try to replicate for this book. But I had the best time making this book because I got to. I worked with the Joan Mitchell foundation, and they were. They had very, very specific ideas about what I could and could not do, which I appreciated, you know, having those

[Mel Rosenberg]

boundaries and show a few spreads of the. Of the other Joni Mitchell, so.

[Stacey Innerst]

Well, let's see. Got to pick my favorite.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Obviously, my favorite is the one where you see her face and all these multicolor.

[Stacey Innerst]

Is that the one?

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was her being disappointing for me, that that's not Joni Mitchell, but I'll get over it with time.

[Stacey Innerst]

We all will. We'll all get over it. No, I'm glad you mentioned it, though, because I love doing this book. And I took kind of a different approach with this because she was a painter, and I rendered her in all black and white, just Pen and ink drawings. And then the paintings were the real thing. They were the color. You know, they were the color and the form and everything. And she was.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You've illustrated books on halas, and you have a worm book where you've geniusly drawn these very empathetic worms.

[Stacey Innerst]

I did. I tried. I tried.

[Mel Rosenberg]

That was just a challenge. What haven't you done? What is the manuscript that you would love to land on your desk tomorrow?

[Stacey Innerst]

Well, I'm writing a couple of. You know, it's fiction, and they're more. They're more poetic in a way. In fact, I'm working with my agent, Hannah. Hannah, man. And trying to. I. I pitched some ideas to her about things that I. I want to illustrate. And they're. They're kind of. They're as. As we talked about earlier, the words don't come first for me, obviously. It's. I've got. I've got the whole movie plotted out visually in my mind now. It's a matter of coming up with the words, the narrative.

[New Books Network Host]

But

[Stacey Innerst]

I have so many heroes. And I would say, in answer to your question, if I'm going to do nonfiction, if I'm going to do biographies, I love doing biographies about creative people. Musicians, artists, writers. Anybody. Anybody that is engaged in this, you know, whatever. This. This futile pursuit to make something beautiful and not feudal. It shouldn't say that, But. But anybody that. That has the courage to go out there and. And just make something, those are the books I want to do as much as I can.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So. One second. So now you're competing with the authors by writing your own material?

[Stacey Innerst]

Yeah. Yeah. We're locked in fierce combat. No, mine are not going to be anything at all like any of the authors I've worked with. I've worked with great authors, too. I've been really fortunate in that way. But these are fiction. And I mean, the things I'm coming up with are strictly kind of poetic, more slightly more abstract, because that's just the way I think. And I'm not. I'm not as disciplined or scholastic as a lot of the. The people I've worked with. I admire their ability to take an historical figure and create a story about it.

[Colgate Advertiser]

That's.

[Mel Rosenberg]

That.

[Stacey Innerst]

That is a unique talent to make an engaging story. I love history, and I regard history, good historians, as good storytellers. Anyways.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. And you mentioned that in your biography of loving history. And you have famous lawyers and judges and Abraham Lincoln, a few books. Yeah. Quite. Quite a repertoire. So we're going to close now because I Want to interview you again in a year. Maybe. Maybe I'll get lucky and we'll. And so what advice do you have for the up and coming illustrators and artists? I know that most people call it illustration, but I like to call it art. And so what is some advice for up and coming picture book artists?

[Stacey Innerst]

Well, on that point, you know, the differentiation between illustration and art, that's. And I've taught some illustration courses and I always tell them, don't, don't draw those lines, so to speak, between illustration and art. Look at everything and make something, you know, as Sondheim did. Really, you know, he took things. He took things from, you know, all these. All these sources and made something his own out of it. And. And I always look at everything. I look at, you know, look. I look at proto Renaissance painters because I think, oh, that I like that. That's the way I want my pictures to look. And then I look at folk art, I look at the, you know, Mexican folk art, which I grew up with in New Mexico, and I bring that in. And then I bring in German expressionism, and then I bring in all of these amazing illustrators that I admire so much. That's what I do.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's the collage and puzzle all over again.

[Stacey Innerst]

Exactly. It is. It's a great metaphor for what we do.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So this has been wonderful and I'm just so lucky I've been here with you, Stacy, talking about your new book. Your new book, which is piece by piece by Aaron Frankel, art book about you came out in Calvin's Creek, which is Astra. And I've been so lucky to get to know you a tiny bit. And we're going to say goodbye to everybody else, run out and buy this brand new book. It's incredible. I'm Mel Rosenberg, the host of the children's literature channel, the New Books Network. I should have a sign like that, like your for sale sign. And I've been with the incredible Stacy Inners. Bye, everybody else. Run and get hold of Stacy's books.

[New Books Network Host]

Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network. We are an academic podcast network with the mission of public education. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can browse all of our episodes on our website, newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us on Instagram and BlueSky with the handle ew booksnetwork, and subscribe to our weekly Substack newsletter at newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.

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