Podcast Summary:

New Books Network
Episode: "Budget Justice: On Building Grassroots Politics and Solidarities" (Princeton UP, 2025)
Date: December 17, 2025
Host: Jen Hoyer
Guest: Celina Su

Episode Overview

In this engaging conversation, Jen Hoyer interviews Celina Su about her new book, Budget Justice: On Building Grassroots Politics and Solidarities. The episode unpacks how government budgets—often perceived as dry, technical documents—are in fact deeply moral, reflecting the true priorities and values of a society. Drawing from her own life and grassroots organizing experience, Su outlines a vision for democratizing public budgets and explores concepts such as the “right to the city budget,” participatory budgeting, ecosystems of participation, and non-reformist reforms. The conversation is filled with real-life examples, critical reflections, and actionable ideas for community empowerment.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Author’s Background and Book’s Motivation

• Celina Su introduces herself (02:54), sharing her long residency in Brooklyn and how growing up as an immigrant shaped her sensitivities around public space, racial/class inequalities, and civic participation.
  • “Moving to the US during middle school was a formative one for me...racial inequalities and inequalities and how they are implicated in public space and the built environment…have been lifelong preoccupations.” (03:05)

2. Budgets as Moral Documents

• Budgets are not just technical tools, but "moral documents" (04:26). Su highlights that budgets encode the political choices of a community—who receives resources, whose needs are prioritized, and whose are neglected.
  • "Budgets are moral documents. The fact that they're so intimidating to read…becomes a real political problem." (06:35) - Celina Su
• Su critiques the opacity and inaccessibility of budget documents, noting it should not be each resident’s job to become a public finance expert just to hold government accountable.

3. The Right to the City Budget

• Concept Explained (08:34): The “right to the city” extends to the right to shape city budgets.
  • “We, the folks who help to live in this...help to create the city...have a right to live here. And the budget part comes in when I think about the affordability crisis...So a Right to the City budget...involves giving everyday residents the right to help to shape the city budget.” (09:13)
• Su connects this to practical needs, like housing and affordability, and emphasizes that budgets should be inclusive and participatory.

4. Participatory Budgeting: Theory and Practice

• Origins in Brazil (12:04): Su recounts how participatory budgeting (PB) first took hold in Porto Alegre, leading to dramatic improvements like increased schools and utilities, and even reductions in infant mortality.
  • “They managed to get themselves out of this awful vicious cycle...to a different virtuous one where they trusted government because they knew where the money was going…” (13:36)
• Changes in Different Contexts: While PB began as a project for redistribution and social justice, in many places it has become more technical—focused on transparency rather than transformation.

5. Ecosystems of Participation and Ecologies of Citizenship

• PB’s Limits and Ecosystemic Approach (17:25): Su argues that PB cannot “democratize democracy on its own.” It is most effective when embedded in a broader “ecosystem” or “ecology” of participatory practices.
  • “We saw some of the strengths and weaknesses of PB...it reached a wide swath of folks...But...you saw people fighting for crumbs...When you have PB in a larger administrative state that otherwise remains the same, there’s very little room for true transformation.” (18:07)
• Spillover Effects: PB participation leads community members to become active in other forms of civic engagement, and innovation often happens at the intersection of these involvement opportunities.
  • “The spillover effects or ripple effects...of PB were in fact much more impactful and interesting to me than the actual PB projects in some ways.” (21:58)

6. “Non-Reformist Reforms” in Budget Justice

• Defining the Concept (23:13): Su discusses the idea of non-reformist reforms, which are changes that move toward substantive transformation without reinforcing the status quo, contrasted with reforms that may be co-opted or reversed easily.
  • “Non-reformist reforms are changes that may seem somewhat incremental but are not things that we have to undo later.” (24:08)
• Evaluative Framework: She offers a matrix for mapping out projects along axes of equity/justice orientation and degree of radicalism, with real examples like creating all-gender school bathrooms and community agreements for domestic workers.
  • “The fact that it’s participatory doesn’t mean that it’s liberatory.” (25:57)
  • “Some of the more imaginative, interesting projects… were in a quadrant of the matrix where it was more radical in that it wasn’t something that the city would currently fund…” (27:17)

7. Current and Future Work

• Ongoing Organizing (30:18): Su describes her continued involvement in the People's Plan, a local coalition fighting austerity and working toward a more just budget process in New York City and beyond. She reflects on facilitating cross-city conversations and links with international grassroots movements.
  • “They focus on fighting austerity cuts in the Adams administration…But they also want to change the budget process and make it so that it’s not so hard and we don’t have every single budget cycle turning into a crisis.” (32:04)
• Poetry as Inquiry: Transitioning to a more personal note, Su shares that she is exploring poetry—not just as a means of expression, but as a research method parallel to academic writing.
  • “I end up writing poetry about the same things I write my books and my journal articles as...I feel like I end up with very different insights...when I try to write them out through poems.” (34:01)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Budgets are moral documents…they don’t have to be presented in such forbidding, intimidating ways.” (07:40) – Celina Su
• “A Right to the City budget involves giving everyday residents the right to help to shape the city budget.” (10:44) – Celina Su
• “Participatory budgeting can’t democratize democracy on its own…When you have a process like PB in a larger administrative state that otherwise remains the same, there’s very little room for true transformation.” (18:07) – Celina Su
• “The fact that it’s participatory doesn’t mean that it’s liberatory.” (25:57) – Celina Su
• “Maybe I would like to try to start to use poetry as research method, because I think it’d be very different from surveys and interviews and budget hearings.” (35:09) – Celina Su

Key Timestamps

• 02:54 – Author background, personal context
• 04:26 – Budgets as moral documents
• 08:34 – Right to the city/Right to the city budget
• 12:04 – Participatory budgeting: origins, outcomes, adaptation
• 17:25 – Limits of PB, need for participatory ecosystems
• 23:13 – Non-reformist reforms and evaluative criteria
• 30:18 – Ongoing work, cross-city coalitions, poetry and research

Episode Tone and Character

The conversation is accessible, sincere, and deeply rooted in Celina Su’s direct experiences as both a scholar and community organizer. Her tone balances hope for transformative change with a critical appreciation for the complexities and limits of democratic reforms. She grounds theory in everyday community realities, often highlighting that democratizing public institutions is as much about building long-term relationships and collective power as it is about changing technical rules or budget lines.

For listeners seeking to understand the intersection of city budgeting, social justice, and grassroots activism, this episode offers both practical frameworks and inspiring stories that complicate and humanize the world of public finance.