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Chris Washburn and Ron Chepesiuk, "Out of Bounds: From Broken NBA Dreams to Redemption" (WildBlue Press, 2025)
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- [00:01]
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- [00:58]
Chris Washburn
Experian welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:06]
Paul Knepper
Welcome back to New Books Network. My name is Paul Knepper, and today I have two special guests, Chris Washburn and Ron Czepcik, to talk about their new book, out of Bounds From Broken NBA Dreams to Redemption. You may know Chris. He was the number three pick of the 1986 draft out of NC State. And Ron is the author of 24 books and more than 4,000 magazine, newspaper and Internet articles on a wide variety of topics from science to entertainment. Chris and Ron, welcome to the show.
- [01:39]
Ron Czepcik
Thank you. Thank you, Paul. Appreciate it.
- [01:42]
Paul Knepper
So I was very excited, sure. I was very excited to hear about, to read this book, to find this book and to read it. I'm a huge basketball fan, but I was, I was born in 1977, so I was pretty young when Chris was coming, was in college and came out in the draft. And I've heard so much about that famed 1986 draft for good and bad reasons. But I was so intrigued to hear Chris's story and I loved the book. I want to ask you, and maybe Ron, I'll ask you this. Why did you decide to start the book with. With Chris doing crack for the first time? Why did you choose that, that moment to start with?
- [02:26]
Ron Czepcik
Well, I started the book with, with a scene from his meeting with Len Bias. And this is an untold story about Len Bias. You know, that he, the fact that he got Chris hooked on crack on that. And, and you know, when you're writing a book, you, you want to start off dramatically and I looked at Chris's life and there was no more dramatic scene than that. I mean, it was a turning point in his life as I describe in the book and as Chris is explained in the book. You know, his life changed forever after that. And it took him, you know, God, 15, 15 years for him to recover from that. It almost destroyed him. But somehow he managed to survive. And today he's thriving.
- [03:14]
Paul Knepper
Chris, how did that, how did that moment with Len change your life?
- [03:18]
Chris Washburn
Well, for myself back then, although I did have a big name at that time, Lynn, Respect. Lynn was getting evil when he came to NC State and definitely when I went to Maryland to see if people responded around him. And I just wanted to be on that level. So the night that Lynn came to my room, it was something I've never tried before. Want to seem like I wasn't in the loop, you know what I'm saying? I want somebody to say, well, he ain't cool. So I tried something I never tried before. And again, like I say, a lot of times people get things from people that they know or people that they idolize. You know, they get a chance to get in a position to meet them. So it was just a learning lesson for me, hopefully for the next, you know, the next generation of the next. Chris Waspearn, as far as in sports would be, hopefully have to go down that path.
- [04:11]
Paul Knepper
Chris, can you talk a little bit about your childhood? What, what was it like growing up as Chris, Chris Washburn? And, you know, you were, you were an only child. I know. And, and you were adopted, which maybe we'll get into. But what was your childhood like?
- [04:24]
Chris Washburn
Childhood was good for, you know, for a kid that didn't know what adoption meant at the time. You know, I only found out what that word meant because kids kept picking on me as I got older. And so I guess I got to the age to finally understand what words meant. Things like that. My mom finally expl. Tell me. But like I, you know, I even tell my biological mother now since I've met her. You've seen that in the book. She put me in a good situation, you know what I'm saying? I came to a family that was wanting a child. They had the means, they had them, the support for it. So again, because luckily they did, because, you know, at one point in time I was, you know, eating a whole lot, getting real big. You buy clothes one week, the next week I ride on them. So I had to be in a position where, you know, somebody was able to take care. And again, like, I Said they put me in the back, basketball camps, summer camps, things like that, that my actual biological mother couldn't do, as she told me, you know, after we met. But, you know, it was real good. It was just that I was an only child. That was my only downfall, I would say, because I always wanted to. To have somebody around. I always wanted to have fun and friends. So my only thing was not having that. That in house, you know, brother or sister at the time.
- [05:39]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. And when did you first start to really get into basketball?
- [05:43]
Chris Washburn
Well, because I was a little big for my age. Not as big as, like the growth spurt I had from sixth to seventh grade, but I was still a little taller than most kids my age and, you know, third, fourth grade. So one of the neighborhood guys that had a little basketball team in the summer, I asked my mom because I played, had never played before, but he said all I have to do is stand and hold my hands up, you know, and that's what I get most this time. But, you know, it wasn't a limit on. On the sport that I did because basketball was my first sport. I enjoyed football first because I was a running back. So that tells you how big I was. I was already a running back and, you know, so when basketball came around because of my size, they asked me to play. And like I said, my mom agreed. For me, I didn't have any say so back then and, and no. And so one thing about me, I was able to catch on my. My athleticism was. Was pretty good. So I was able to. To. To. To, I guess, adapt to the basketball, to the dribbling and the running and all that. So my coordination was real good. So again, it just kept growing as I kept growing inside, you know, the coordination kept getting better and better.
- [06:51]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. You know, Ron, I'll put this to you. It struck me reading the book that, you know, you know, Chris once, certainly once he got to college, he was freshman year, he got into some trouble and reading the book, and it struck me maybe, you know, between his size, you know, you look at. I see it with my kid. My kid's only 9 years old, but some of the. Some of the kids that are. He's got friends who are much taller, and it's almost like you expect more of them. Maybe you treat them different. You treat them as if they're 11 or 12, even though they're only nine, because they're bigger. And as Sharpie, reading the book, do you think maybe Chris, because of his size and his outsized talent, that maybe he kind of grew up too fast or, or too much was expected of him too early or he ran with, with, you know, faster crowds because of that.
- [07:45]
Ron Czepcik
Yeah, I mean, he did. He was talented. He had soft hands and he was quick. He was not just big. That's the thing, the misnomer about Chris, he was also physically gifted as well on that sort of stuff. And I think the game came. Came easy to him. I think he was, you know, he was only a child too, so I think he was a little bit spoiled, you know, and he got, you know, mostly got. He got a lot of things his way. His mothers were stern when it, when it mattered and all that. But I think that all of that, you know, made it sort of tough when he went to college, you know, and was on his own. And he got into trouble before he knew it. And the next thing he knew, that trouble spread. You had crack, you know, going to the NBA at a very young age. He was like, you know, got 20 years old or whatever, you know, on his own. He didn't have any kind of guidance. He didn't have anybody with him when he went to Golden State on that. And you can see that there was potentially a recipe for disaster. There was, you know, in the, In Chris's life.
- [08:57]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, I, Man, I don't know. It was, you know, reading the book was just, in a way, I mean, it was heartbreaking. It was, it was really heartbreaking because Chris comes off as such a likable guy and yet, and yet somebody who endured so much, who struggled, was just struggling.
- [09:17]
Ron Czepcik
You know, that's the interesting thing. I talked to almost all of his ex, ex teammates and none of them badmouth him. They're. They all liked him and, you know, they all were worried about him. They're wondering, well, how he was doing today and all that sort of stuff. And even given all the trouble he had, you know, he went to prison, you know, stealing money and all that sort of stuff, and still people liked him. So, you know, he had a national. He has a national charisma which, you know, has carried him well through life.
- [09:49]
Paul Knepper
So, Chris, how did you end up, how did you end up choosing NC State?
- [09:54]
Chris Washburn
Well, as I tell in the book, a lot of times, I've been recruited since really my eighth grade, since junior high, and coming my senior year, you know, after going through that so many years, I wanted to enjoy my senior year. So I got to. Like I told Ryan in the book, it wasn't that I was an NC State, NC State fan or anything like that. It was just that at that time, I told my mom, whoever comes through this door next is the school I'm assigned with. And it was NC State. It could have been. It could have been Maryland, you know what I'm saying? It could have been Iowa. It was just North Carolina State that came through the door. And then, like I said, once I got to NC State, I had to really kind of catch up on the history, you know what I'm saying? Because I didn't even know. NC State in Carolina was a big rivalry. Duke Gang was a big rivalry until I was there, you know what I'm saying? Everybody forgets about the way Forest is in the town, you know, in. And then in North Carolina. So I had to catch up on all of that because again, like I said, as in the book, and as Iran know, I don't watch a lot of sports on tv. My attention span, even as an adult now is very short. I might have watched first two or three minutes and I see something that, well, why did he just fall or, you know, that wouldn't have foul right there. The game has changed so much now. It's so much softer. I really don't watch it as much, you know, unless I go to the game. You know, I'm going this weekend to NC State where we have alumni weekend, and I'm gonna go down that. But. But like I said, my main thing was, you know, you know, just getting out there to play is the biggest part for me. I don't like sitting on the sidelines and watching.
- [11:38]
Paul Knepper
And, you know, we were talking before Ron, Ron. Ron was saying how, you know, in some ways you were kind of set up to fail in certain ways. And, you know, there were certain factors that I think worked against you, and I. I think another one of those is the money. You know, it sounds like in the book, dad, lots of schools here throwing money at you.
- [11:58]
Chris Washburn
Yeah, I wouldn't say set up the bill. I was just around people that had never been to that position before, had never gotten that high in their profession. Yeah, I'm from a small city and, you know, for here, the big thing is just to go to college, you know. You know, and so. And a lot of times it's little small schools, you know, Winston Salem States, The A&TS, the HBCU schools that we have here. But no one of my, you know, with my basketball skill at that point in time, I could actually come back home and talk to about what happens on the next level, because I didn't know no one like that. You Know, I didn't have any other NBA players from this city. I didn't have any NFL players from this city. So everything. And I had had too much pride that, like, I didn't know something. So when I would go places and they would be talking about such things, you know, although I didn't understand what they were talking about, I would nod my head like, yeah, I understand, you know, in hopes that I could watch somebody maybe and see what they were talking about and mimic off of that. But like I said, I didn't have any kind of road model or example. Everything I did was actually firsthand. I had to do it myself. And like I said, a lot of times I dropped the ball and Kevin joined the book. You know, I dropped the ball and picked it back up.
- [13:14]
Ron Czepcik
And remember, remember when he was drafted, third pick in the NBA draft, 86. He signed a $3 million contract, which in 86 is a lot of money, you know, even by today's standards, is a lot of money.
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Chris Washburn
And.
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Ron Czepcik
And the kid is only. He's barely. Maybe not out of his teens yet, and he has all this money and he's got a growing drug habit. What do you think's going to happen? Right?
- [13:41]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Going back a little bit, what. What was it like to play, you know, when you got to NC State, they were just a little over a year of that, that. That magical tournament run, and you're playing for, you know, the famous Jimmy Valvano. What was it like to play for Jimmy V. At NC State?
- [14:03]
Chris Washburn
You know what, like I said, it's funny here because I didn't pick the school that I was going to, but it felt good going to the school that just won the national championship the year before. So I think I tell a lot of people I was there for all the parties the next year, you know, all the parties that would come out. Also, being one of the big men on campus, you know, I was invited to everything. And so. And also that was the last time I actually played basketball for fun, you know what I'm saying? When I was at NC State, it was often fun. I enjoyed the teammates. You got to pick who was on your team and that kind of stuff and build reputations and rapport with. But once you go pro, these guys, when I got to go to State, these were grown men. I already had families, wives and kids and things like that. And I was drafted in June. I just turned 20 in May. So the next month I was drafted to Golden State. So like you said, going on out there and in the evening I'm tuned out. I got a pocket full of money, I got a big nice Mercedes. I want to go to the club to see the girls and all that kind of stuff where the guys on my team, because Golden State at that time was one of the oldest teams in the league. Chris Mullen, that came maybe two years before me, and Sleepy Floyd, those are only. And those guys, if you know, or if you know, Sleepy, very sound. They're very quiet people. So they're there. They're not really outgoing folks. And so now I find myself in a city of California where I know it's, you know, I know it's women. I got no, it's clubs and parties and I can't go to them because there's nobody to go with. So my thing is I go by myself and I already had a little cocaine at that point in time. So, you know, I'm going out and I'm looking around for the. So setting up scenes where I can maybe go back, you know, introduce myself into somebody and let me know I'm coming back maybe for some, some drugs later on. So I always was setting myself up for the next step. But again, but the main thing was never anyone actually to hang with in California. You know, back then the team didn't do like they do now. They didn't put the guardrails around people to come around you and things like that. It was just free fall back then. So, you know, I just got caught up, you know, in the lifestyle of California, running with the wrong folks out there again. And you know, trying, trying to, you know, footprints out there. But then again I'm, I'm going down the wrong path, you know, and then not knowing that it's not like college where if you're doing something wrong, the team is going to look, hey man, you're doing bad. This is pro now. If I'm doing bad, that means the next guy can get along the contract, you know what I'm saying? So he's not going to help you as much because if you're too much, you get out there and you're doing well. That cuts his time on the floor, maybe get him traded. But now he's already got a family in the city and stuff. So it wasn't as friend, you know, as it is now with the guys because we have nothing to compete against now. So when I see the guys now, it's all love and pass on the back and how you doing? Such and such. But back then when we competing against each other, we didn't really talk. Whoever know, you know, team chemistry, maybe one or two players on each team, you know, might hang out. But it was just learning the process for me back then from. From college to pro.
- [17:16]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. Yeah. That was sad to me, too, reading it. I actually. I just wrote a book about Moses Malone, and Moses was the first guy, really, to go straight from high school to pros. And a big factor his success was he first went to the aba, the Utah Stars, the aba. And he had guys, he had vets who pulled him aside and said, young fella, you got to do this and you got to do that. This is how you take care of your money. This is how you dress in the NBA. This is how you tip at a restaurant, all these little things. Ron Boone, the veteran, used to. Used to invite Moses over to his house all the time to have dinner with his family. And. And, you know, Moses is no longer here, but I think he would be the first to say that was a huge factor in his success. And so, you know, I'm reading your book, and I'm kind of looking around like, where are. Like, where are the adults in the room? Right? Where's the. I don't know whether an assistant coach or a vet or a family. I tell you, one of the most heartbreaking things to me in the book was your uncle. Like, your uncle. You brought your uncle in to kind of help you out and get you on the strict path, and your uncles and your uncle's doing cocaine when he's supposed to be helping you out, but.
- [18:33]
Chris Washburn
Not to cut you off. One of the biggest things that you did. Seth, When I played with Atlanta, Moses was on the team, and he invited me out one night, and we went to a little. A little restaurant, had some food, and we said. And we talked. But, you know, about. That's what you said, about how you need to carry yourself about things you need to be doing. But at this point in time, I'm two years into the drugs now, you know, and so he's telling me stuff that's going on in one end, right. Right out the other. If you might have been in Golden State and caught me then, you know, where I'm just now getting started, where I could, you know, maybe could pull back because I'm not addicted at this point in time. I could have heard more. But I went that whole year with Golden State, another half year, estate done. Now I'm traded to Atlanta. You know, I. And then I went that half year was Atlanta before starting the next year, before me and Moses went Out. So I had two years of just doing drugs every day. I mean, you know, every day I basically was awake, I was doing drugs. And so when a person is not telling you, this is not something for you to be doing, you need to be doing such. But he's really talking to me about being on time because I was always being late or not showing up practice. He's like, you know, you're just giving your money away for free, you know, such and such. And, you know, I'm listening to what he's saying, but the only reason I'm late to practice is because I'm somewhere else getting high.
- [19:56]
Paul Knepper
Right.
- [19:56]
Chris Washburn
You know, and so again, but I couldn't tell nobody. Well, you know, what I'm doing, Drew, is how do I get all drugs? Because again, I had, you know, I had a little pride with myself, although might not have shown, I'm starting to fall off, appearance wise and all that kind of stuff. But then again, I don't know, I'd have asked for help because I'd never been able to ask for help because I'd always been a leader, you know what I'm saying? So when you go from leading to now chasing something that you'll never catch again, it's hard to go to somebody that's not in that arena where you are at and understand what you're going through to go and ask them for help. So that's one. And again, that was my downfall. I never extended my heel. I went to prison after prison, but all those 14 times I went to rehab, I never raised my hand to go to rehab. Someone always raised my hand for me. As far as, you know, if you don't go this time, you're going to jail. If you don't go here you go and get put off the team. So it's like a foreseeing I'm being forced in. And it wasn't after the NBA, so was taken away, Europe was taken away. I've been shot now, so why do I have to stop doing drugs now? Because this is where I worked myself to. But once I worked myself to it, I was like, I don't like to be here. You know what I'm saying? I don't like the folks that I'm around. So I had to make another. A new change now. But with this new change, there was no basketball involved. There was no, you know, I'm the big man on campus. You know, I had to reinvent myself all over again just for a productive person, you know, in society. So that's you know, that's why my steps started coming in that what had actually now start learning how to deal.
- [21:37]
Ron Czepcik
That's a good point about drug rehab having a support network around you. I mean you mentioned his uncle another time he left rehab and the guy that picked him up, they got stolen on the way leaving, you know, so it, you know it was, it's, you know he, he really didn't have a chance. I mean there was no opportunity to do it. And then you know, the NBA, it was the early stages of drug addiction. Crack was in the mid-80s was just starting up to be a really big problem and all that. So their rehab programs were infantile. You know, I mean they were young and not well developed and all that. And so it was very hard for him to survive the crack thing without getting more addicted.
- [22:26]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, I want to talk, I want to get into the drugs a little more. How did. So you did crack that, you know at NC State, of course with, with, with, with Len Bias and, and that that led you to miss some important tests in school and you fell behind and you decided to go to the NBA. So after that, after that first episode with the crack, where did the, where did the drugs go for here from there? When did you use cocaine again? When do you start using it regularly?
- [22:55]
Chris Washburn
Well, what happened was after I ended up leaving school because I had a, I don't want people to think that I was doing cocaine while playing at NC State to see the, the tournament against Kansas. And so season was over at that point on time. Now we were back in school for finals. Well getting ready for finals and when Lynn came by and I, but you know, and that was not only smoked it like a couple times with him and that was it. That was my extent with me and Lynn getting high together was on maybe two or three times I hit the, hit the glass jar and like was hanging out doing drills, you know on the weekends while I was shooting the rail and he was coming out. No, there was a one time thing but after that, you know, after I tried it and tried it in that form, what I know now that was a, the purest form you could get. And then was the smoking part. I thought about it a lot but I couldn't ask anybody about it because upon like a low man's drug, you know what I'm saying? Where when I went to New York waiting for the draft, my agency, most of those guys snorted cocaine which was the rich man's high, you know what I'm saying? So you know, so I'm sitting Back and they asked me, have we tried it? I was like, you know, in my mind, yeah, I tried cocaine before, but not in that form. So now I'm sitting around snorting cocaine and to get there. But what broke me from that was I had to go do a speech in. It was called Tavern on the Green in the Garden down the park. And I didn't know where I was going to, but I'd been up all night snorting cocaine. So my nose was running stopped. This is mid afternoon 12 and you know, early part. Early part of July in New York City where it's nice and hot. I got a box of tissues in my hand and I'm in the park not knowing I'm going to the PAL function, which is the Police Athletic League. So I'm down there with a box of tissues. Well, I've been out up all night snorting cocaine with a whole park full of police walking around asking me. So at that point I was like, well, no, I can't do it like this, you know, because it's too noticeable. People see me doing it. I know I didn't do cocaine for a while, you know, to the point that when I left New York and went to Golden State for training camp, you know, was off to Santa Barbara. I was average about 24 to 27 points in training camp, you know, as a rookie, you know what I'm saying, and doing real well. I'm starting at this point in time, doing good, you know. So when we come back from Santa Barbara, I'm only starting and lineup, you know, I was starting out, but me and Carl started getting into it a little bit. This is still before the season starts. And so my thing was back then I'm with people I would call problems with myself. So my thing was, well, I get him, I go out and get high. Don't make sound either, you know, so. So my thing was I would go out and get high, stay up all night and stuff, you know, and the kind of. In my. In my. But actually punishing myself, you know. So I worked myself from a starting position within about two weeks. I was at the end of the bench. So when the starting season came around, just about two weeks before, like as a training camp, I was at the end of the bench and never played me. No, I never had a significant minutes after that.
- [26:32]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, you know, it's, you know, the.
- [26:35]
Chris Washburn
Learning process, it was.
- [26:37]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. You know, and reading the book, it's at again, heartbreaking is the word I keep coming to. And one of the things is just you know, the symbolism kind of of you. You being high at the NBA draft, you know, and it's. It's like, damn, like he. That, like, that's the day it all started and he showed up high, you know, like you never gave yourself a chance. You never had a chance at a career. Which is. Is just.
- [27:05]
Chris Washburn
It's funny because years after the draft, I. I sit and watch the draft a couple times, and I cried during the whole. Because during that time, I watched the kids, they happen, they putting their hats on, you know, and they know they're getting ready to get this money and stuff. I was sitting in the drive high, and all I was thinking about was getting out of there to go get high again. I never got to enjoy that. You know what I'm saying? We're putting a hat on, holding a jerk. I mean, I did all that, but don't remember because I was high. You know what I'm saying?
- [27:36]
Paul Knepper
So, yeah, it's terrible for a lot of.
- [27:38]
Ron Czepcik
He wasn't the only one. Chris wasn't the only one high. Several players were high. I mean, Lynn Bias was high. You know, Bedford was high there. They were just, you know, it was an environment that made it almost impossible to try to survive, you know, as a normal person. It really, it really was. It was a recipe for disaster.
- [27:59]
Paul Knepper
I mean, that's. That draft is known as. As the drug draft, right? I mean, yeah, for a reason.
- [28:04]
Ron Czepcik
Potentially. It could have the best drafts of all time.
- [28:07]
Paul Knepper
Yeah.
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Ron Czepcik
But it turned out to be. It turned out to be, you know, one of the worst. You know, Lynn Bias died, you know, a week later.
- [28:13]
Paul Knepper
Right.
- [28:13]
Ron Czepcik
You know, in.
- [28:15]
Chris Washburn
At.
- [28:16]
Ron Czepcik
At his. At his house, and it was awful.
- [28:19]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. Chris, I wanted to ask you about that. Given. Given, you know, your. That. That's how you first started. You know, you first smoked crack with, With Le Bias. How did, how did it affect you when he died for. For our listeners, Len. So, Len, the first pick.
- [28:34]
Chris Washburn
It wasn't a fight.
- [28:35]
Paul Knepper
I'm sorry. The first. Let me just to get Seth to see the first. The first pick in that draft was Brad Daugherty. And then Len Bias went number two to the Celtics, and then Chris went number three to the warriors, and about. And two days later, Len died of a cocaine overdose.
- [28:52]
Chris Washburn
That one night incident when we was at the draft together, you know, him going two and me going three. We were in the draft and out of the draft. I didn't, you know, I didn't hang around all that stuff. But he did tell me he was having a party in Maryland on that Friday. And I told him while I was driving back from New York back to NC State so I could show the other teammates my car and then go kind of made it a little bit. And so he was supposed to send me information about the party that we were going he was having in Maryland that Friday. And like I said, I was still in New York doing some business that Thursday. Someone came up to me and asked me how I heard about Lynn. And I was like, you know, what you mean, you know, he died. And I was like, you know, that's. That's a bad thing said by the person and turned it on the back and then showed Lynn Bias dead of an overdose. And, yeah, that rocked me. But again, like I said, it wasn't really that bad because at that point, I wasn't smoking. I was just snorting at that time, like I told you then, snorting wasn't real big with me, so I was able to stop that. You know what I'm saying? And so, you know, when I, when I stopped it, like I said, my, my, my basketball workouts became more intense and stuff. Like I said, I was back to being Chris the basketball player. But then after me and the car started getting into it in Golden State, you know, one of the things that came across in my head was, hey, you know, you just like that cocaine stuff. You know, go ahead and see if you can find some of that. And so that's where, you know, the, you know, I started back smoking again probably about three or four months after Land had passed.
- [30:28]
Paul Knepper
Right. Ron, you know, when Chris is telling you his whole story and, and, you know, you make note in the book that I, I think Ron's, Chris's biological father had a, had. Had an addiction, and there was some addiction in the family, in the biological family and everything. We talked about how he grew up and, and, and the, the prevalence of drugs at the time. Was Chris, you know, becoming addicted to cocaine, Was it almost inevitable?
- [30:55]
Ron Czepcik
I mean, yeah, I think the environment, yeah, his own personal makeup and the lack of knowledge about what crack can do, you know, it was such a new drug, and it was so cheap and so easy to use, you know, that. Yeah, I think all of those things made it very difficult for him to survive. There was no guidance system, he had no counselors, and he was an only child. He didn't have a brother that could advise him about living, about what to do about drugs. He couldn't go to him. So he was pretty isolated as well. And then you take everything else that went into it and the outcome was pretty, well, I think, inevitable.
- [31:46]
Paul Knepper
And Ron, what's it like for you as a writer, as Chris's co author on this, to hear just the depths that he fell to? You know, I mean, you documented so well in the book that Chris was. He was homeless at different times and combing the streets looking for drugs and food even. And you know, he.
- [32:04]
Ron Czepcik
Fourteen felonies. Fourteen felonies.
- [32:06]
Paul Knepper
14 felonies. He ended up getting shot.
- [32:09]
Ron Czepcik
Right. He was in Texas, in one of the worst prisons in the country on that sort of stuff. He went through literally hell, you know, and then, you know, he had that, that incident in, in Philadelphia. Right, Chris, where you got off the bus and you met some nice police officers, you know, and you might not have gone out with your life. Yeah. So I was doing the book, I was saying, I mean, how the hell did you get out of this? I mean, you really. I mean, it went on for year after year after year and just setback after setback. And then all of a sudden he's out of it. And so when I found out how he went out of it, he just quit. I couldn't believe it. You know, I said, you didn't go to counselors? You know, he didn't have some kind of religious awakening or whatever? No, he just, he just quit because, you know, his father died and his mother needed him and you know, he took responsibility and showed so something about his character and that's what got him out. And today he's, you know, he's thriving. I mean, he hasn't taken drugs, what, 20 years, Chris, something like that. And you know, he's a model. I mean, so when he talks about redemption, which is part of the title of the book, he knows what he's talking about.
- [33:38]
Paul Knepper
25 years, you said, Chris.
- [33:40]
Chris Washburn
So Paul, Paul, let me say one thing though.
- [33:42]
Paul Knepper
Yeah.
- [33:43]
Chris Washburn
Because again, 45 years I've been off cocaine. And like I just said, again, I tell folks that anything that stops you from handling your business, you shouldn't do it. But let me go back to the adoption when I was a kid. See what my mother and father did know that there's adopting a kid with the gene of addiction. Because my biological father, just like my father, I was adopted too, both like to drink alcohol. I had the addiction of alcohol gene in my body. With an addiction, doesn't matter what drug it is or what you want to do as use that addiction on. So I would sell already to be an alcoholic, you know what I'm saying? But watch my uncle's dad Drink. And at the early age 11, 12, I had to go to the pool room and drive him home in a stick shift car because he set up there and peed on stuff. I vowed never to drink like that since I would never become an alcoholic. But having a gene of addiction again, when I tried cocaine, you know, that's it sparks that, you know, and, and it's funny because I was raised as an only child. My biological brother, a half brother, was raised a biological mother, my sister, dad, none of us knew each other, but we all had a cocaine problem. We all had a crack addiction, never knowing each other until, you know, I put a song together 50 years later. But again, but not even standing the same house still. Again, that gene of addiction was in all three of us. And so again, but like I said with having that gene and, and, and, and I tell my own kids, you know what I'm saying? You have this ink. You have to definitely be careful on, you know, anything that you do. So, you know, not knowing early on was the problem, which being like, say again. When I finally realized, you know, what my problem was as far as we just changed, you know, a few things, I was able to live again.
- [35:47]
Paul Knepper
Yeah, I, I, you know, I wonder, you know, we're sitting here, we're talking about this terrible period in your life and, and getting shot and, and rehab and felony, felony arrests and, and, and on and on and, and, and you have, you have a smile on your face through a lot of this. And, and first of all, I think that's wonderful. But I wonder, is it hard for you to, you know, because you've come out the other side, which is remarkable. And so many, so many people don't, I don't have to tell you that, but is it hard for you to look back on those times or talk about those, those difficult times?
- [36:27]
Chris Washburn
Think about when people come up to me and say, I remember you back in, in the NBA. They didn't watch me in the NBA be college, because I didn't do nothing in the NBA. And so I understand my place as far as porch, you know, but I'm still here. I can't go and ask my boy Charles Shacklefoot, you know, how he's feeling today? I can't go ask Anthony Mason. Hey, man, you know, how you doing today? I can't call Moses up no more and say, moses, how you doing today? Because they not here. I know all three of them love to still be here. So every day that I'm still here, after all the stuff I went through for 15 years, you know what I'm saying? I smile, you know what I'm saying? Because every bad day. Every bad day beats any good day. I had on cocaine beats any good day because I can still wake up the next day and not have had to sell my jewelry or not had to pawn my car, you know what I'm saying? I can wear a fresh mind, you know, and able to do things, but back then I couldn't. So they. Because a lot of my friends that did it correct. Did the NBA correction be done. I'm still not here at this point in time, and it's just a blessing that I'm still here. And I'm turning 60 in May.
- [37:48]
Paul Knepper
All right. Yeah. Good for you. Did you ever talk to. Do you ever talk to any of the other players in the history of the game who struggle with addiction, whether it be in your draft pass like William Bedford or Roy Tarpley, another guy who's no longer with us or, I don't know, maybe Michael Ray Richardson who sadly had recently passed away as well? Did you ever talk to any of those guys about common struggles?
- [38:10]
Chris Washburn
What are you talking about? I'll tell you about Michael Ray. Me and Michael Ray periodically got another guy by the name of John Drew. We used to talk a lot because we were in prison together in Houston. Yeah, I still talk to guys like Lloyd Daniels, they called him sweet pea to play for the Spurs. He's still in New York. He still has his struggles. Another kid named Luther Wright to play for the Utah Jazz. He still has his struggles. And I still try to keep a blessing and a word with Faith behind him. So there's still a lot of guys out there that's still trying to get it right. And I'm one of those guys. Regardless, I can't turn my back on you because, you know, I know how it is when folks, you know, not meaningly turn their back on you, but they turn their back where you say is, well, you know, I never turn my back in, but I can never get in touch with you see, all these guys can still get in touch with me. You know, they don't have to go through no one to get a night or a bad morning. When they get that number, they're going to actually talk to me. I'm not going to talk to, you know, an assistant or something like that and say that somebody's going to get back to you. You going to talk to me. And these are things I try to do for everyone that I know it has that struggle because struggle don't just hit you at night or just in the morning. So everybody needs somebody they can just call at any time. And a lot of times I'm at one.
- [39:32]
Paul Knepper
That's great. Ron, question for you. You know, we talk so much about drugs, and of course, Chris's. Chris is famous because of basketball, and there's no doubt that drugs derailed, obviously derailed his career. But in talking to him a lot for this book, did you get the sense that Chris loved basketball, or did Chris play basketball because he was 6, 11 and a tremendous athlete?
- [39:55]
Ron Czepcik
Well, he was, you know, that's a good question. I really don't know. In fact, I remember asking myself that once to myself on that, you know, he was tremendously talented. I mean, he was gifted. It came pretty easy to him. The route all the way to the NBA could have been really easy for him on that. And I really don't know. I really can't tell you that answer to that question, you know, honestly, I don't know. Maybe ask Chris that question, see what he says.
- [40:26]
Paul Knepper
Chris, do you think you love basketball.
- [40:30]
Chris Washburn
In one word? Let me do it like this. No, didn't love basketball. That's why it was so easy to give it up. I think I liked what basketball brought as far as the fame, the fortune, notoriety, getting in clubs, free, having folks buy things for me, different things. I enjoy all of that still to this day, I enjoy it. But basketball per se itself, never just really a basketball friend. That was something I could really do. You know, I made a lot of MVPs and internments I played in. Who's to say I could have been a Hall of Famer still? But when I sit back and Watch Guys like LeBron, Durant, guys that played 15, 20 years, would that have been me? No, no, not at all. Might have been five, six, you know, three years that I played. Might have been it regardless, you know, But I didn't see myself playing 15, 17 years, something like that. Now, who's to say that I wouldn't have grown into enjoying it more? But when basketball season was over, you know, a lot of times, you know, I would play pickup games, but wasn't like I was in the gym working on my craft and, you know, up in the morning, six in the morning, doing all the things I'm seeing these guys doing. And I actually just have the love for the game. I. I love the. The perks the game brought to say I'm old enough not to say that. But, you know, back then, you know, I did whatever it took to to get on that court and to, to, you know, to bring a smile as my somebody's face or, you know, to become somebody, you know, I enjoyed that kind of stuff, but did I really put everything into it? I think I could have put into it. I don't, I don't think so.
- [42:14]
Paul Knepper
Yeah. Chris, how did, how did fatherhood affect you? How did fatherhood change your perspective on life and maybe on your addiction?
- [42:24]
Chris Washburn
Well, you know, from on my own kids, it was kind of bad because every time I, my, you know, as I got old and got with my wife and I, when we got together, her kids were a little younger, so it gave me a chance to have a do over. And so like I said, coming in as a stepdad, you know, for a lot of people out there, you know, you could come in with, you know, but behind the ball to say, you know, and so you have to work your way up. It's like this. So when I came in, we didn't get along in the beginning, you know, me and the kids and stuff, because they sent a different authority figure coming in. I'm, I'm trying to set rules and you know, I'm trying to get my place simulated in and then also still trying to build relationships back with my own kids because, you know, I, I had those, those relate. Those bridges was burnt because, you know, you don't think kids are watching and feel things when you're out there doing drugs because you're not around, but because you're not around and you know, that brings a lot of different feelings and stuff. But still to this day, I'm still mending fences and building back bridges with my own. I have four sons. I'm still building, building those bridges back 30 years later. But when I got my wife, her kids were young enough, gave me a chance to see my mistakes in the first, my first round. And so this, the second round, I vowed not to make those same mistakes, you know, to the point where, you know, even on Christmases, I was getting plaque stand greatest step, you know, stepdad of the year and all that kind of stuff, which, you know, now, you know, I see, I'm seeing now I put my bricks in order to the point that now her daughter didn't like me that much when we got together. Now our daughter's 25, has her own child and also her daughter changed her last name, asking you would I adopt her. You know, she wanted the last name of Washburn now, you know what I'm saying? Because I had proven to her that I was someone that you could count on and depend on. And so we went through the thing at 25, and she just maybe got her paperwork back maybe a month ago, you know, showing that her birth certificate and Social Security cards and all that stuff has been changed over into watch from which give me, you know, I can stick my chest out now a little bit because I. I can see the changes that I've also made. And also I see, you know, that someone else sees the changes that I've made. So, you know, so yeah, I'm real proud of, you know, you know, where I'm at now. I'm in fatherhood and all that, and even better, our grandfatherhood. I have nine grandkids. So like I said, I'm almost 60 years old and that things have changed in life. But all for the best. All for the best.
- [45:06]
Paul Knepper
That's great. That's beautiful about your stepdaughter changing her name. What better sign of the progress that you've made as a man for her to want to carry your name? That's beautiful. Chris, what are you doing now day to day? How you living your life? How are you spending your time?
- [45:23]
Chris Washburn
Well, right now I have a little small speakers company. Like I said, if I have get a chance to go out and do a speech that I can't make it, I can call some of those guys, like I just said, Lord Daniels or Luther, right. You know, they're in position to go out and speak for me or Richie Dumas from front of Phoenix Suns, things like that, you know, to go out and speak for me. Then also I have a little cart service which is a shuttle service in my little city of Hickory, North Carolina, which is a golf cart service for downtown, you know, shuttling people back and forth so they don't have to move their cars. Got the book out right now. Also have eight prescotinario masters. I breed dogs. So, you know, my life is kind of full. That's one thing I had to do to stay on the path that I'm on. I have to always keep myself involved in something because again, the idle mind never know what it might bring back up. So again, I don't give the devil the workshop to work in my head. I just always tell I'm just staying busy, trying to stay focused and just trying to stay positive.
- [46:25]
Paul Knepper
Ron, how do you feel when you look at Chris now and where his life has come and the person he's become?
- [46:31]
Ron Czepcik
Well, I feel proud. I mean, we become friends and I'm just amazed. And he's a role model because the way he recovered, I mean, there's no question about it. He went through hell, but he survived hell and came back to a very normal life. I mean, unless you knew his past, you never would have known today that he had that kind of past on that sort of thing. So, yeah, very proud. I'm proud of the book, too. I think it can help other people like you, you seem to be affected by it. I think other people will be too. And I hope a lot of basketball players read it too. Up and coming players, you know, so that they can have some idea of what they could encounter and maybe how to deal with it too, as well.
- [47:18]
Chris Washburn
And then also let them know, Ron, that, you know, it's not a bad read because the book came in second, you know, Sports book of the year. We will run up with that. So, again, so it's a good reading, but it's also a guide on how to stay straight, you know, and just enjoy life.
- [47:35]
Paul Knepper
Right? Yeah. And again, let me just say again, the name of the book is out of Bounds From Broken NBA Dreams to Redemption. And I mean, it's a perfect title. He really nailed it with that title. And as I think you could tell, I thoroughly enjoyed it. And you know, as I said, a lot of, through a lot of it, I was heartbroken. But I, I, I, I, I. When I put the book down at the end, I had a smile on my face because it, because, you know, I, I really feel like Chris, the five yards of, you know, when, when somebody's that deep in addiction for that long, to be able to pull himself out of that and to be, to be a father and a husband and a grandfather now and to be able to share his story with others as he did in the book and as he does when he speaks. I think just, you know, like you said, Ron is just a wonderful, well, he's a wonderful role model now and what a tremendous redemption story it is.
- [48:31]
Ron Czepcik
I agree.
- [48:33]
Paul Knepper
So I want to thank both of you again for coming on the podcast and best of luck with the book, best of luck with everything, and thanks again.
- [48:43]
Ron Czepcik
You're welcome. You're welcome, Paul. I appreciate it very much.
- [48:46]
Chris Washburn
Thanks, Paul, again.
- [48:47]
Paul Knepper
All right.
- [49:00]
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