Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Deidre Woolard
Guest: Dr. Christopher F. Jones, Associate Professor of History at Arizona State University
Book Discussed: The Invention of Infinite Growth: How Economists Forgot About the Natural World (Simon and Schuster, 2025)
Date: October 17, 2025

In this episode, Deidre Woolard interviews Dr. Christopher F. Jones about his new book, which traces the intellectual and practical development of the idea of infinite economic growth. They discuss the historical roots of growth theory, shifts in economic thought, the interplay with environmental and resource concerns, and the prospects for redefining success in economic terms beyond endless expansion.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Growth Thinking: Classical Economists and Limits

[02:03 - 07:45]

• Jones explains that his interest in growth developed after his work on the history of energy transitions in "Roots of Power," noting that economic growth’s dependence on abundant fossil fuel resources is often overlooked by economists.
• Material Limits: Formerly, economists like Adam Smith and Thomas Malthus believed growth was inherently finite, limited by land and diminishing returns.
  • "All the classical political economists thought that there were actually limits to growth and that we would not be able to grow beyond a certain point." (Jones, 04:52)
  • Malthus and Smith both saw limits in land availability and the law of diminishing returns.
• Stationary State: Up until John Stuart Mill (1848), human societies expected to eventually reach a stationary, non-growing economic state.

2. Hiatus on Growth Discussion in Economics

[07:45 - 12:28]

• After Mill, economics as a discipline largely stopped directly addressing growth from the mid-1800s to World War II, focusing instead on terms like "material progress" or "development."
• Measurement Issues: Lack of proper data and statistical tools (like GDP) made it hard to even conceptualize total economic growth.
• As economic metrics like GNP and GDP emerged around WWII, economists gained the tools to talk about "the economy" as a measurable entity.
  • "The development of the statistics that underpin gross domestic product... makes a new conceptualization of growth possible." (Jones, 09:27)

3. The Role of Data and Policy

[10:28 - 13:00]

• With data proliferation, the relationship between statistics and economic policy became symbiotic ("the tail wagging the dog").
• Economic policy shifted to continuous intervention instead of one-off fixes, leading to expanded roles for economists in government.

4. The Rise of Growth Theory: Postwar Transformation

[13:00 - 15:18]

• Postwar boom and Keynesian economics emboldened the idea of infinite growth.
• Growth theory was shaped by left-of-center, government-interventionist economists, such as Robert Solow and William Nordhaus.
  • Jones confesses his surprise that growth theory’s originators "were not the sort of right wing... figures that many critical historians of economics love to focus on." (Jones, 13:51)

5. Resource Limits and Environmental Debate

[15:18 - 20:23]

• The 1970s marked a resurgence in resource limit concerns, sparked by ecological and environmentalist movements—e.g., The Population Bomb (Paul Ehrlich) and Limits to Growth (Club of Rome).
  • "There's sort of a justification in excluding resources at that period.... It just doesn't seem like an important thing." (Jones, 17:24)
• Solow and others integrated resources into growth models under the assumption of substitutability, downplaying the significance of ecological limits.

6. Variations in Growth Models: Neoclassical vs. Development Economics

[20:23 - 24:40]

• MIT was a hub for diverse approaches: Solow (neoclassical growth), Rostow (institutionalist), Rosenstein Rodan (development economics).
• Despite differences, even development economists (focused on the Global South) largely ignored the natural world, instead seeking to shift labor from agriculture to factories.
  • "They know most of their people are working in the natural world, but they want them to stop." (Jones, 23:22)

7. Capital Accumulation & Divergence Across the Globe

[24:40 - 26:25]

• Major debates centered on whether to focus investment narrowly ("big push") or spread it across sectors ("balanced growth").
• The environmental Kuznets curve concept appears: pollution rises with early industrialization but is expected to fall as societies get wealthier, though this has mixed empirical support.
  • "They both suck it up for a little while and trust it will be okay later – positions that have both had some empirical evidence that they're true and that it's false." (Jones, 28:35)

8. Climate, Nordhaus, and Exponential Growth Optimism

[28:56 - 35:48]

• William Nordhaus’s Nobel in 2018 signaled mainstream economics’ continued prioritization of growth over environmental limits.
  • "While environmental costs and climate change aren’t great, it is much better to be wealthier in a more volatile climate than it is to be poorer in a stable one." (Jones, 34:37)
  • The Nobel was controversially shared with Paul Romer (proponent of endless knowledge-driven growth), rather than with Marty Weitzman, a more climate-cautious economist.
• Nordhaus’s “economically optimal path” accepts >3.8°C warming, conflicting with IPCC warnings.

9. Modern Growth, AI, and Who Benefits?

[35:48 - 41:59]

• The discussion connects to today’s AI boom: its presumed long-term benefits are set against immediate costs in resources and job losses.
  • "It’s not enough to grow the pie. You have to think about who’s getting pieces and where things go." (Jones, 36:53)
• Economists' traditional argument: focus on growth, let others handle distribution and wellbeing.
• The golden era (postwar to 1970s) delivered widespread prosperity; since the 1970s, growth has become less shared, with rising inequality, favoring top earners and shrinking the middle class.

10. Degrowth, Wellbeing, and Rethinking Economics

[41:59 - 47:18]

• Degrowth, a movement advocating deliberate slowing or reversal of economic growth, is discussed—Jones prefers the concept of a "well-being economy."
  • “We have what I at least think when I look at our economy, we clearly have enormous amounts of economic activity that have very poor links to human well being into making people’s lives better.” (Jones, 44:43)
• Challenges abound: reversing growth isn’t simple due to the structure of social systems and safety nets.

11. Interdisciplinary Future and Next Steps

[47:18 - 50:59]

• Well-being studies are emerging but struggle with measurement and disciplinary divides.
  • "Economic growth is too important to leave to the economists." (Jones, 49:01)
• Jones’s next project will focus on the connections between growth and well-being, and how growth’s benefits may be better realized and distributed.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the historical attitude toward growth limits:

  • “All the classical political economists thought that there were actually limits to growth and that we would not be able to grow beyond a certain point.” (Jones, 04:52)

• On the birth of economic measurement:

  • “The economy gets invented. And part of how the economy gets invented is you actually need the intellectual infrastructure to do this.” (Jones, 08:44)

• On economists’ real-world influence:

  • “We actually need huge teams of economists working in the government to sort this data, to suggest tweaks to policy and amend it constantly.” (Jones, 11:48)

• Unexpected origins of growth theory:

  • “A lot of the arguments many of the figures were making were not the ones I had expected them to.” (Jones, 13:51)

• On model limitations:

  • “In fairness to them... the whole point of a model is to try to find the most important factors... if you include everything in your model, it becomes too klutzy to use.” (Jones, 17:24)

• Critique of economic reality since the 1970s:

  • “For anyone out of that total, the top 10 to 15%, the middle class has shrunk over the last 50 years. There’s been so much stagnation for everyone below the 80th percentile.” (Jones, 39:55)

• About degrowth and well-being:

  • “We need to get away from the idea that we can always infinitely make life better by adding more choices and options and think about what is it that it means for good human lives.” (Jones, 45:45)

• Interdisciplinarity’s necessity:

  • “All of these questions are too important to leave to any one field.” (Jones, 48:19)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Origins of infinite growth & economic history: [02:03–07:45]
• Hiatus in growth modeling (1850–1950): [07:45–12:28]
• Rise of data-driven economics: [10:28–13:00]
• Growth theory and ideological assumptions: [13:00–15:18]
• Environmental critique & resource models: [15:18–20:23]
• Development economics and global growth: [20:23–26:25]
• Kuznets curve variation & limits: [26:25–28:56]
• Nordhaus, climate, and mainstream growth theory: [28:56–35:48]
• Modern AI, inequality, and the future of growth: [35:48–41:59]
• Degrowth and well-being economy: [41:59–47:18]
• Interdisciplinary approaches & next research: [47:18–50:59]

Final Thoughts

Dr. Jones’ book and this discussion serve as a powerful challenge to mainstream economic thinking, urging us to confront the material and distributive realities of growth, recognize the finite nature of the planet, and look beyond GDP toward genuine human well-being. The episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in economics, sustainability, or how ideas about growth have shaped—and may yet reshape—the world.