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Church and State (Professors Dan Rober, Michelle Loris, and Charlie Gillespie): American Cardinals denounce US Foreign Policy
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- [00:01]
Michelle Loris
Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast.
- [00:16]
Dan Robert
And breathe.
- [00:17]
Michelle Loris
Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.
- [00:25]
Dan Robert
Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.
- [00:31]
Michelle Loris
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- [01:14]
Dan Robert
And Pope Leo talks about that. He talks about taking away the sovereignty of Venezuela. He talks about the weakening of multilateralism. He talks about what was going on in Ukraine, for example. And then all we have to do is look to Minneapolis. And so you know, you can't have religious freedom unless you have first respect for human life and respect for human dignity.
- [01:43]
Chris Odinius
Following Pope Leo's address to the diplomatic court of the Vatican, also called the world address, on January 9, 2026, the three American cardinals who are also diocesan archbishops, Cardinal Cupich, Archbishop of Chicago, Cardinal McElroy, Archbishop of Washington, and Cardinal Tobin, Archbishop of New Jersey, in addition to Archbishop Broglio, the pastor of the US Military have been reminding the people of the United States that we are in the wrong. We are wrong to prop up the Venezuelan regime while sidelining its democratically elected leader. We are wrong to withdraw our aid from the global poor and that we are wrong to covet Greenland and betray our NATO allies in a way that not only fails to oppose the ambitions of Putin and Xi Jinping, but actually endorses their land grabbing adventures. We are wrong to use cruelty and chaos in the otherwise lawful enforcement of immigration rules. And it has been a bad dream and has been difficult and disorienting to wake up from Now. I'm sure we all find it annoying when priests start giving political commentary, though something pretty rare in my experience. But when the politics of the nation starts going off the rails, it would be worse if our pastors kept quiet. They have a prophetic role and obligation to say true things. And so they are. So today, three professors from Sacred Heart University in Connecticut, one of the largest and fastest growing private religious universities in the country, talk it over with me on Almost Good Catholics. Hello and welcome to Almost Good Catholics, a conversation about theology and apologetics. And at least today it's also about culture and politics. I'm your host, Chris Odinius, and I get to ask interesting people interesting questions, they share their conclusions, and hopefully we all get a little closer to the truth of the capital T. Have a good time doing it. If you'd like to join the conversation, please email me@almostgoodcatholicsmail.com today we are talking about church and state, about the American Cardinals who denounce U.S. foreign policy. And I have three professors from sacred Heart University in Connecticut, one of the largest and fastest growing universities in the country. And they're going to explain how we can think about it. And we'll see what happens next. We have theologian Dan Robert, chair of Catholic Studies, author of Recognizing the Gift, Toward a Renewed Theology of Nature and Grace. This seems to me especially an auspicious sign since the last episode I just recorded and the one that's going to come out after this is about the film Tree of Life, which shares the title there. And we have Michelle Loris, the founder and previous chair of Catholic Studies, also founder of the university's Core Seminars program, and she is a professor of English. And we also have Charles Gillespie, who directs the university's Pioneer Journeys program. He's an expert on St. Augustine, and his new book is about theater, God on Broadway. St. Augustine, of course, was central to the pope's recent speech on January 9 about the state of the world, his address to the diplomatic corps. And I think that's the foundation on which we're building the comment of the three American cardinals. So it's going to be a great conversation. But first, I want to tell you guys a joke. So let me say welcome.
- [05:05]
Michelle Loris
Thank you. Yeah.
- [05:07]
Chris Odinius
And yesterday I was this is a joke. I'm in the middle of making up. Yesterday I was mountain biking with my middle school children. A different child flew over the handlebars. And the one of the other coaches was, you know, making sure the kid was okay. And he said, like, let's do a little inventory, head to toe. Can you wiggle your fingers? Can you, can you, does your head hurt? Can you, you know, what's your name? What day of the week is it? What is the what is the what? What year is it? Stuff like that. And I thought, because I've seen This happen before when firefighters were responding to a. Another person who had an emergency. And then they finally say, can you tell me who's the President of the United States? And if the kid starts screaming, then the firefighter says, you're all right.
- [05:56]
Dan Robert
I love it.
- [05:56]
Charles Gillespie
Yeah, I think that.
- [05:58]
Chris Odinius
Yeah. And I think, like, I haven't figured to finish it, but it's close to what we're talking about, so welcome, professors all. And how should we begin?
- [06:08]
Dan Robert
Well, why don't we talk about the City of God? And I know that Charlie is an expert, but I love the way Pope Leo framed his remarks on January 9 to the diplomatic corps with the City of God, and how he talks about, you know, the earthly city leaders being concerned with self love, with the desire for power and glory and domination. But he says a sentence there. Let me see where it is. But we are, as Christians are responsible for our history. And I think the three cardinals that we're talking about today, Cardinal McElroy, Cardinal Tobin, who actually just made an additional comment about saying no to ice, and Cardinal Cupich, where they are really speaking out the way St. Augustine was trying to speak out. And they're taking up the banner that Leo set forth in that January 9th talk to talk about the lack of moral foundations in America's international and national behaviors. And so I think the City of God is a great frame that Leo used, and I think the cardinals are really continuing that. Charlie, you're shaking your head. Did you want to.
- [07:40]
Michelle Loris
Yeah. No. Michelle, I love you pointing us to Pope Leo, to taking the City of God as one of the themes for his discussion with the ambassadors. Because I think this is a way of framing both Pope Leo's sense of the role of the Church in the world, but also the challenge for how 21st century Catholics have to think about our relationship to change in our political lives. There's a great line from Pope Leo's address to the ambassadors where he says, the City of God does not propose a political program. Instead, it offers valuable reflections on fundamental issues concerning social and political life, such as the search for a more just and peaceful coexistence among peoples. When we think about City of God and Augustine, of course, we have in mind the Roman Empire. We have in mind what's going on when you have an entire civilization that encompasses most of the known world, coterminous with the eternal city, city of Rome. Right. How often, as we think about Catholicism, that you've got this way of following our Lord Jesus Christ spread throughout all the different cultures of the world. Also still headquartered in the Eternal City of Rome. But the notion of Civitas or Civitas isn't just a city. It's also all the ways in which we make life together. So you get the root for words like civil as in civil discourse or civil disobedience. And you also get our identities as citizens, the fact that any project of building community is always one between people. So I think when you talk to ambassadors, as the Pope, as a political leader on the world stage, and you point to Augustine's sense that we're always dual citizens as Christians, we're citizens in the City of Heaven that were on pilgrimage, on our way home, longing to go to the place that's our rightful homeland. But we also are living in the world today and trying to struggle with all its difficulties. I think there's a real excitement in the Pope having us look to St. Augustine's wisdom because it reminds us that the Church has lived through great turmoil before, and it has an obligation to speak out during turmoil right now, which.
- [09:53]
Dan Robert
I think is what the three cardinals are doing. And Leo talks about that, the need to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But we're seeing the opposite of that happening. And that's what the three cardinals are talking about in their joint statement, that we are not seeing the promotion of human dignity. We're not seeing the importance of the common good. We're not seeing solidarity or religious freedom. And in fact, we're not even seeing respect for human life. And we counter that to, for example, the three cardinals are saying we have to have a moral vision. We have to have a set of moral values, an ethical compass. I hear Donald Trump saying the only morality that matters is his own and that he doesn't care about international law. I hear Stephen Miller saying that the importance is power, force, strength. I hear St. Augustine and Pope Leo and the three cardinals calling for the gospel of love and charity. And their calling, when I said he's using St. Augustine, the city of God, because Augustine is saying, if you're a Christian, you have to stand up and speak out. And I think the three cardinals are doing that, but they're also calling all of the Catholic Church, as well as America's leaders to do that.
- [11:35]
Michelle Loris
I want to invite Dan to join us with one brief comment. That's a bridge, which is to say, I think, Michelle, you're spot on in saying that City of God gives us some symbols for how to respond to this move towards strength and power as the only value for the earthly city. Augustine, in book 11 of City of God gives us this great phrase, the libido dominandi, the lust for domination. And I think noticing that our attraction and desire for domination for expansion for its own sake, that's a caution for the Christian because it's meekness that's inherent according to the Gospel. But I think Augustine opens up for something that'd be really fun to talk about, which is how do we think about all the political emotions that go along with what's going on right now? Because Augustine doesn't say that it's sort of the glory of Rome that exclusively motivates action, but a lust for domination. But Dan, what are you thinking about all this? Because I know you're following what's going on with the cardinals really closely.
- [12:33]
Charles Gillespie
Yeah. So I'd like to focus really on an issue that's running through all of this and is also running through Augustine, which is the idea of order. Right. So Augustine's ideal, which is an eschatological ideal, is ordered peace. Right. That's where the city of God is taking us. And so much of what the Cargyls are focused on is the rules based international order, which is the Church has had a really interesting relationship to historically. Right. So this is the post war order, the idea that nations. Right. Institutions are not just supposed to do whatever they feel like, but are supposed to follow a set of kind of agreed upon rules in international law about how to deal with one another. And this was very important in navigating things like the Cold War. Right. And preventing nuclear holocaust. Right. That the major sides felt compelled to follow the rules based order and to not just act, particularly in international situations without extensive consultation with one another and with organizations like the un. Right. And the Catholic Church from the very beginning, from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights got involved in crafting this rules based international order. Now the Church has not always been consistent at following the rules based order, both internationally. So immediately following World War II, the church was very involved in smuggling Nazis out of Germany into places like Latin America. Right. And even recently. Right. The Church's conduct in the sexual abuse crisis has not respected the rules based domestic order. Right. The Church has tended to want to follow its own rules when convenient, but. Right. Has been very strong, particularly since Vatican ii, since Paul VI and John xxiii on pushing the rules based international order as a way of ensuring peace. Right. So Paul VI gave the famous speech at the UN about no more war. Right. Leo has been very clear on this. And Leo has been also very clear about authority and morality. So there's a line in Leo's dissertation, which is really interesting, where he says there is no room in Augustine's concept of authority for one who is self seeking and in search of power over others. Right. He wrote that as somebody who had no notion of becoming the Pope and of dealing with Donald Trump except by flipping on NBC and watching the Apprentice. Right. But it's certainly something that is very relevant to the situation we're facing here. Right? A vision of leadership ship as being somebody who is following and not seeking to impose order. Right. Because again, and I want to wrap up with this, order is a word that can mean a lot of things, Right? And for some people, order means I'm giving an order, right? Not I'm following and submitting to an order. And that is very much what's at odds here or what's at stake here, right. Is, is the United States and other nations part of an order where they work together or is it, you know, kind of establish your sphere of influence and establish your order.
- [16:06]
Dan Robert
But the kind of order that St. Augustine is implying, you know, is a divine order. It's an order that is the basis of justice. It's the order that is the basis of humane human relationships. It's the basis of love. And you can't have peace, it's the basis of peace. And it's hard to have peace without justice. So the divine order that I think Leo too is referring to is that kind of order, not giving an order. That's more the Donald Trump kind of order, you know, that seeking of dominance for one's own self, glory, which is what St. Augustine's talking about. And I'm sorry, but I just had to jump in on that one. Chris, you wanted to ask a question?
- [16:58]
Chris Odinius
No, that was very good. I wanted to say it's nice as an American observer to see three Americans, Cupich, McElroy and Tobin, and one American Pope speaking up. Because I think most of the people around this planet have whiplash, have no idea what happened to the America they had come to depend on for the last century, if not longer. A total inversion of. Not that we're not hypocritical at times, but the principles of the Monroe Doctrine about keeping empires at bay, or the post World War II order that we've all come to know and love and enjoyed sleeping and rising underneath the blanket of security that it provides, especially for people in small countries and middle sized countries that, that has, it's been, you know, it's been yanked from under your feet. Kind of like the tablecloth magic trick. Kind of thing. And it's nice to see the Americans at least, having a public discourse about it. And good for me, as a Catholic, to see. To see the Church standing on the side that I miss so dearly.
- [17:57]
Charles Gillespie
I'd like to add something that I think is just as important, which kind of flew under the radar for various reasons. But Archbishop Broglio, the archbishop for the military, at the same time, basically came out with a statement, this was when the Greenland thing was kind of at its height, indicating that conscientious objection would be available to Catholic soldiers there. Which, first of all, the three cardinals who wrote that letter, while they are very influential and important because they are the three non retiring cardinals actually in charge of diocese in the United States, also, there are people that are seen as having a certain kind of orientation, right. You know, possibly within the Church, a slightly more, quote, unquote, progressive orientation, whereas Archbishop Broglio is certainly a dye in the wool, conservative in various ways, somebody who would normally be viewed as very friendly to Republicans. So his coming out with that particular statement spoke volumes on the foreign policy issue, at least in terms of, you know, how far the Church was set against any kind of action vis a vis Greenland. When it comes to other domestic issues, it's a little more complex. People along Brolio's lines are much more kind of issuing statements much more about like, everybody needs to calm down the temperature and all of that. But on foreign policy issues, very clear.
- [19:31]
Dan Robert
Although Cardinal Tobin just came out, I think maybe yesterday or today, and he was at an interfaith service and he was very clear, saying, you have to say no to ice. And he said, yes, there has to be mourning. M O U R N There's mourning, there's prayer, but that it is important for Catholics to scrawl their no on the wall. And he meant that metaphorically. How they might do that would be taking action, obviously, not violent action, but taking actions in different ways. He said, for example, what are you doing with your vote? And he talked about that. And Cardinal Tobin was one of the three cardinals who made that statement that came out last week, by the way.
- [20:25]
Charles Gillespie
He's a little boy.
- [20:26]
Dan Robert
All three of these cardinals visited Sacred Heart University in the past two years and gave some wonderful talks to our students. But the point is that Tobin now has made a comment about our domestic what's happening to us nationally, what's happening to us domestically.
- [20:47]
Charles Gillespie
It. Tobin is a little bit more out on a limb on that specific issue, though, whereas on the foreign policy issues, there's a much greater unity. I Think there's a lot more division still on domestic issues. It's moving in a direction of criticism of ice, especially just as a lot of kind of political opinion, including among Republicans, is moving, but it's slower moving than on the foreign policy issues.
- [21:16]
Dan Robert
But the bishops made a statement in November. They made a fair. I mean, Cupich actually added the last clause, which was the more assertive statement, but they did make a statement about what's going on with immigration in this country.
- [21:33]
Charles Gillespie
Yeah, I was going to say, I.
- [21:34]
Chris Odinius
Think I heard that the USCCB all said something in solidarity with the dignity of all migrants.
- [21:41]
Michelle Loris
No, I think this joint statement From Cardinals Cupich, McElroy and Tobin, I think points to two things that are really interesting for the United States, particularly, Chris, thinking about you talking about international observing of America is we've actually had a lot of internal Catholic division in the United States that mirrors a lot of the political polarization that we're seeing in Europe and the North Atlantic world right now. And this is one of the moments where there was a whiplash swing of seeing a dominant narrative in certain areas of the American Church, which is that the Church's commitment to the right to life is about the issues of abortion and euthanasia and old discussions where inclusions of what does it mean to think about just war used to be connected to the Catholic position on the right to life. And in the last couple of years, that fell away from the discourse. So you wouldn't hear issues of war in the same triad with abortion and euthanasia as the top political issues for Catholics to be thinking about in the United States. And I think what's so interesting about the Cardinal's joint statement is it's a reminder the Church's teaching has always made space for how we confront tragic situations that might require war as a last resort. And what we see in this statement from the Cardinals is a reminder that war is not ever the first option as a just option. And I think that development is really important. And that's also quite whiplashy for members of the hierarchy because that's fallen out of vogue in how we talk about Catholic social teaching at the highest levels of the Church in the United States. So I think that's really powerful. The second thing I would say, and this is a little Catholic Inside baseball, but I think it's quite interesting, this joint statement from the Cardinals starts to show some of Pope Leo's vision for the College of Cardinals we've seen recently, which is to have them as regional leaders for the moral voice of the Church, not simply the cardinal electors waiting in the way. And so I also think we're immediately seeing an American pope and three American cardinals embracing Pope Leo's vision for the cardinals as moral voices, particularly speaking to their regions of the world. And that's why I think it's so important that this joint statement came out.
- [24:01]
Dan Robert
Yeah, Cardinal Cupich actually spoke to that point, that second point, Charlie. I mean, he was very clear that Pope Leo laid out are teaching for us in that January 9th statement. And he set forth that ethical and moral compass. And so I think he said something like, we just can't stand by and we have to follow Pope Leo's teachings. And basically, I think their conversation started while they were at the consistory and they heard alarm from a number of the cardinals. And so, according to what I've read, they decided to come together to make this statement. But I think that that's wonderful. That's almost unprecedented. I mean, I haven't seen the church as the church. I mean, in the 60s, yeah, you had the Barragans, et cetera, but you didn't have the Catholic Church entering the public square. The way this has just happened with Pope Leo making his statements and now with the statements from these three cardinals.
- [25:13]
Charles Gillespie
I mean, again, I would say, though, there is one of the things going on with the cardinals is indicating that even including the statement from Broglio that I mentioned, which was on a specific issue because of his role as military archbishop, that you are seeing, again, with people like Cardinal Tobin, a kind of leading edge that is distinct from the way the official voice of the usccb, especially on the first fly, is managing things. Their statement in November was at the annual meeting and required significant interventions to get a stronger version of it. Whereas if you look at Archbishop Coakley's statement about the activities of ICE in Minnesota. Right. It has. It was very milquetoast compared to what someone like Cardinal Tobin is willing to do. And that's in part because Archbishop Coakley is basically a conservative, somebody who is much more comfortable collaborating with the Trump administration, as we see when he kind of went for the photo op, which in the Oval Office, which I think presents differently for somebody like Coakley than it does for somebody like, for example, the mayor of New York going there, who's clearly viewed as kind of a leftist. And. But Archbishop Coakley is representing a kind of different tendency within American Catholicism than what Cardinal Tobin is trying to represent, which is something closer, I think, to Pope Leo and to the sort of global thinking of the church as an institution in terms of teaching on migrants and on kind of just treatment of citizens in general.
- [27:03]
Michelle Loris
Yeah, I really like that point from Dan about this global sensibility, though, because what I love about the Cardinal's joint statement is it's a reminder to American Catholics that we are also part of a global community. Right. The laudato sea image of the Earth is our common home. That's really helpful for thinking ecologically, but we're seeing an extension of the sensibility we're all moving towards, which is globalization can't just be that we can zoom between snowy Connecticut and nice warm California to have a great conversation, but it's also to think about the fact that God has created this whole planet and we're responsible to our brothers and sisters all across the world. And war is one of the ways that ruptures that sense of human community.
- [27:45]
Chris Odinius
Well, amen. And so this is powerful for me in two ways. One, because the Catholic Church isn't generally left or right, because with some people, we say no capital punishment, and with other people we say no abortion. And with some people, we say yes to a more traditional family. And with others, we say care for the poor. And that does it. That falls across the American spectrum in different spots. But at the same time, how beautiful to be unanimous at this moment where there is no loyal opposition on the conservative side, they all have collapsed like a house of cards. There is no where, you know, where are the, I don't know, John McCain's and guys like that. They are, they are all very, very quiet. We don't have an heir to somebody who might disagree respectfully with a sitting president and say, you're betraying all our, all our. All our principles. So how, how nice to have a moral authority like the, like the Church of Rome in America to be doing that. And I hope everybody can take a little comfort and confidence. I'm sure there's some conservative members of Congress who've been waiting, waiting to speak up, because a lot of them do not like the kind of things that their party is going along with.
- [28:49]
Dan Robert
Well, right now, I think Pope Leo has been the main. I mean, except for the recent comments, really, by Carney, the Canadian leader. But he's the only. But Leo was really the only international moral voice. And I think the three cardinals now are the other main voices. And you're right, Dan. There is a conservativism. There's no question about it. I think that conservative component of the Catholic Church, weren't they honoring whoever Trump's leader is in the immigration policy. And didn't Bishop Barron come out and give a blessing or something like that? So all I'm saying is there is this polarization. But the statement that the three cardinals made speaks to, tries to make statements, to talk about or to urge people to ameliorate to change that polarization. Though I would agree that it still exists in the Catholic Church in America.
- [29:59]
Charles Gillespie
I think with Pope Leo, what you have is somebody who is not afraid, afraid fundamentally of Trump and of the US In a way that many international leaders, for various reasons, have to kind of protect the interests of their countries, even when dealing with somebody they view as odious, whereas the Church is able to speak in a prophetic kind of register. And this is why, again, to allude to Bishop Barron. It's particularly disappointing when you have bishops close to these situations who don't want to act in prophetic ways and want to take a kind of both sides approach to brutality that ends up, of course, really privileging the brutality continuing to go on. This is something that Martin Luther King and Letter from Birmingham Jail and various other places was very clear about. But again, unlike members of Congress, many of whom face death threats and refuse to speak out for that reason, bishops and cardinals and the pope ought, by virtue of their responsibilities to proclaim the gospel to be without fear. But of course, they're also human beings.
- [31:26]
Michelle Loris
And I want to build on what Dan just said, not to be the token person always pointing to Augustine, but to fill my role as the token person always pointing to Augustine. I think Dan's exactly right, because Augustine has this line in De Doctrina Christiana where he says that growth in knowledge and love of eternal things eventually reaches a stage of courage in which one is hungry and thirsty for justice. I think there's something about the cardinal's statement that is a reminder of the foundational principles of faith that the Church has to stand on if it is to be the carrier of the tradition of Jesus Christ telling the truth of the gospel in the world, that we can return to our first principles and that be a source of courage as we speak out for justice. And what we saw from the cardinals is a model for all Catholics in the United States, that there are basic appeals to the tradition that we are compelled to make despite how polarized we are on thorny questions of political life and how to answer impossible struggles such as what do we do with crises of migration around the world in times of a changing ecological and economic planet? What do we do around questions of how do you have an intervention at the level of foreign policy, when you're just an ordinary person trying to make sense of a huge snowstorm all across the country right now. And one of the things that I think the Church is reminding, especially laypeople, is that we have a foundation in faith. And from that, we can, as Dan said, start to move away from fear and let that restlessness in our heart that yearns for God's love to motivate us to act courageously towards justice.
- [33:07]
Chris Odinius
So I looked up, I think, what Michelle was talking about a week ago. It says, Bishop Robert Barron expressed his appreciation to US President Donald Trump for proclaiming January 16 as a day dedicated to religious liberty. Clearly something we're all in favor of. Do you think that in his prophetic role, he should have nothing to do with the current president, or do you think, like, you gotta pick your battles and you gotta go along to get along as far as you can, and then when time strikes, you speak. So how does a prelate of his standing and authority do this? Right.
- [33:41]
Charles Gillespie
Well, I mean, he's been serving alongside Cardinal Dolan on the President's Religious Liberty Commission. Right? And right, to quote the great prophet Uncle Ben, right, with great power comes great responsibility. Right? There is a need to, you know, if you're going to take that kind of role and put yourself in line for criticism for such a role, you need to use it for something. And what he seems to be using it for is to pursue things that he and the administration are aligned with. That's not how this is supposed to work. Religious liberty concerns cut in different directions. They cut in directions that might be pleasing to the right, that might be pleasing to the left, but he seems to only want to pursue them insofar as they are pleasing to the right, and also not to use that platform to make the case for the church's social teaching on other sets of issues. Right. That's a serious failing. And I think, you know, this is. And again, his attempts to, you know, tell everyone to turn down the temperature in Minnesota have been of a piece with that right. They are functionally giving room for ICE to operate by saying everybody ought to calm down. Because the fact is, ICE is not calming down. Right. That is not what it's designed to do in the way they're acting there. So, yeah, he needs to do an examination of conscience about the way he's approaching public policy issues.
- [35:21]
Dan Robert
The other thing is religious freedom. I mean, it has to be based on, first, foundationally respect for human life and. And human dignity. And those things are not operational Right now in ice or nor in some of the international things that we see that America is doing. And Pope Leo talks about that. He talks about taking away the sovereignty of Venezuela. He talks about the weakening of multilateralism. He talks about what was going on in Ukraine, for example. And then all we have to do is look to Minneapolis. And so you can't have religious freedom unless you have cert first respect for human life and respect for human dignity.
- [36:13]
Michelle Loris
I like your question, Chris, because I do think it challenges that sense of polarization.
- [36:17]
Charles Gillespie
Right.
- [36:17]
Michelle Loris
I'm happy to go on the record and say that I do think our prelates should be involved in conversations of political life in the United States, regardless of what that political body is doing. But I think we see in the cardinal's statement about American foreign policy a lament that the language of religious liberty is no longer a value that seems to be motivating American foreign policy abroad, but is instead a cover for certain political interests. And I think that that's a really important statement. If the goal is national security and economic capacity of looking to natural resources, there is not a claim that part of what's motivating some of the aggressive foreign policy right now is the expansion of access to religious liberty around the world. And I think it's right for the Catholic Church, and especially for American Catholics to charge the United States to have one of its founding statements, which is the importance of a place for religious liberty, that to be in the conversation about a justification for intervention abroad.
- [37:17]
Chris Odinius
If you were Bishop Barron, what would you do?
- [37:20]
Dan Robert
Do we have to be Bishop Barron? Can't we just. If we are a bishop, I could.
- [37:23]
Chris Odinius
Imagine myself in a role that close to the center of power, enjoying my position, and then always right when it's time to, you know, like, what. What is it for if it's not. If you. If you cannot dash it to the ground when. When the moment comes, what's it for? And I think we're all like that. Too comfortable, too secure, perhaps. All this does is underscore how much we should admire the three cardinals of Washington, Chicago and New Jersey who are. What have they got to lose? They're very, very important men. But on the other hand, I don't understand. I've never understood why you would, as President of the United States, try to grab more stuff.
- [38:07]
Michelle Loris
Right?
- [38:07]
Charles Gillespie
You are.
- [38:08]
Chris Odinius
You're 80 years old. You can't take it with you. You. You have an opportunity to make everybody's life better. And what are you interested in? You're interested in building a hotel and Putting your name on things.
- [38:19]
Charles Gillespie
Right.
- [38:19]
Chris Odinius
It doesn't make any sense. None of this makes any sense. This is the contrary to the whole system I have grown up with and heard about.
- [38:26]
Dan Robert
It's contrary to our whole democratic tradition and our democratic values. That's true, but. Which is why the cardinals came out and made that statement, because they see that happening. But again, to go to Augustine, he talks about some of the earthly city leaders being filled with a desire for domination, self glory, self love, self interest. I mean, those are virtually his words in the City of God.
- [38:59]
Chris Odinius
But he's also talking at a pre Christian time. Right. Those people had a pagan ethic where the whole goal was that people would sing your name by the fire, like long after you're dead. And that's all there is. But we live 2,000 years later.
- [39:12]
Dan Robert
But, Chris, I mean, we've heard our president say no morality matters but his own. He is not inclined to peace since he didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize. He is not beholden to international law. Those are his statements. He has a chief who says, Steve Miller, who says force and domination are what have always been, you know, those things win.
- [39:49]
Michelle Loris
I think, Chris, you're onto something that, of course, Augustine writing to the ancient world is to folks that are living in a different time, a different psychological and religious place. But the first 10 books of the City of God are actually Augustine's analysis of the Roman culture of spectacle and the importance of the Roman gods. And I think that we are living in a moment right now where the logic of spectacle is one of the strategies of President Trump's administration, where what it means to live together in community is increasingly mediated through spectacles that are worried about how we're going to influence other people, particularly when we're not in the room. And I think that the desire to be remembered, the desire for importance, the desire to say that my story endures across time, that's going to be in the minds of all Americans and everyone around the world, because we're celebrating 250, 50 years of the American experiment this year. So I do think there's actually profound similarities between Augustine's sense of empire and what we're living through in the moment right now. And you can think about paganism as a set of religious principles that index to a collection of gods, or you can talk about the church's long standing relationship to natural theology and the natural law and the natural order. And there is something about being in the world that might be foundational, that might be shared universally as Nostra aetate reminds us, regardless of the religious traditions that layer on top of that human experience that challenge us to question actually, wait a second, is that desire to be remembered just a Roman pagan thing? Or are we all a little overly obsessed, perhaps evolutionarily, with how people think about us when we're not in the room?
- [41:31]
Chris Odinius
Right.
- [41:31]
Michelle Loris
If you read any reviews on your podcast, I am certain the one or two people that didn't like it stick out in your mind at 4 o' clock in the morning than the hundreds of people who say that this is the one that's doing the right discussion for the church right now.
- [41:43]
Charles Gillespie
And so I'd like to bring up an example a little more recent than St. Augustine, but that I think is trenchant to this, including at least one person who certainly thought a lot about what people were thinking about him when he wasn't in the room. And so in the 1950s, among Catholics, especially kind of conservative leaning Catholics, this is before the church was as polarized in the U.S. but there were factions. The suffering church in Eastern Europe was a major kind of cause of cause celebs. There was a lot of stuff out there. And two big people who were viewed as kind of martyrs even they weren't actually martyred, but were imprisoned and all this, or went under house arrest in one case were Cardinal Stepenak in Croatia and Cardinal Minzenti in Hungary. Right. And Carlo Minzenty was probably a bit of a self promoter in a way. He went under house arrest in the US Embassy and kind of published diaries and everything to kind of get attention. But here are men who were viewed as putting themselves on the line for the sake of the Church and for the sake of the people of their countries. And again had major appeal to kind of conservative anti communists. And I think what the cardinals are stepping closer to doing is to saying that like us bishops need to be willing to put themselves on the line the way that many liberal Protestant clergy are putting themselves on the line to defend people who are being brutalized. Right. Cardinal Cupich's predecessor, Cardinal George, very famously said that he would die in his bed, his successor would die in prison, and his successor would die a martyr in the public square. Right. And sometimes people make fun of that, but sometimes as kind of apocalyptic doom saying and all this. But in some ways Cardinal Cupich is inching toward proving him right in the sense of being willing to put himself on the line for what's right. And you know, that ought to be an example, that ought to galvanize people. And I don't think the Trump administration is ready to touch that third rail. And I think that tells you something.
- [43:59]
Chris Odinius
I think that has to be the last word because I'm out of time. I had so much fun and I hope everybody goes to listen to Pope Leo's speech. I will link to it below. I thank you so much for your work and for your time joining me today. And I wonder, Michel, if you would close us with a prayer.
- [44:18]
Dan Robert
I'd be glad to. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, let us place ourselves in the presence of Almighty God. And thank you, Lord, for this opportunity to share our thoughts. We ask the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to lead our country and to lead our our people and to lead us in these conversations to further the proclamation of your gospel of love and peace. Amen. Amen. Name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
- [44:55]
Chris Odinius
Amen.
- [44:56]
Michelle Loris
Nails spear shall pierce him through the cross. Be born for me, for you and ha. Hail. Hail the Word made flesh. The Babe, the son of Mary.
- [45:17]
Chris Odinius
Chris Odiniot's Dan Rober, Michelle Loris and Charlie Gillespie recorded this conversation. Episode 111 on Monday, January 26, 2026. It was the feast day of Saints Timothy and Titus, both followers of the Apostle Paul and early evangelists in the Eastern Mediterranean world whom we know from the Book of Acts. Saints Timothy and Titus pray for us. Our music is from Josh and Margot of the great Space Coaster Band. Check them out@www.GSCoasterBand.com. and our logo, the image of the dog is taken with the kind permission of the Dominican friars of England, Scotland and Wales from their website, www.english.op.org. it's a stained glass window at a monastery in Spain. Thank you for listening today. May God bless you and your family. Next episode is going to be about the Tree of Life. A film by Terrence Malick with Brian Zah.
- [46:16]
Michelle Loris
This this is Christ the King whom shepherds garden angels sing.