Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Church and State (Church and State: American Cardinals Denounce US Foreign Policy)
Host: Chris Odinius
Guests: Professors Dan Rober, Michelle Loris, Charlie Gillespie (Sacred Heart University)
Release Date: February 6, 2026

Overview

This episode explores the recent unprecedented intervention of American Catholic cardinals—Cardinals Cupich (Chicago), McElroy (Washington), Tobin (New Jersey), and Archbishop Broglio (US Military)—as they publicly denounce recent US foreign policy shifts under President Trump. Drawing on Pope Leo’s January 9 address (the so-called “world address”) that invokes St. Augustine's City of God, the panel considers the Church's prophetic role, the complicated relationship between religious values and political power, and what it means for American Catholics today. The conversation weaves together history, theology, Catholic social teaching, and current events.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pope Leo’s Address & St. Augustine’s City of God

• The group highlights Pope Leo’s speech as a pivotal moment, framing it with Augustine’s “City of God,” distinguishing between secular power’s lust for domination and Christians’ call to justice.
• Charles Gillespie: “The City of God does not propose a political program. Instead, it offers valuable reflections on fundamental issues concerning social and political life, such as the search for a more just and peaceful coexistence among peoples.” [07:40]
• Augustine’s theme of “libido dominandi” (lust for domination) is contrasted with Gospel meekness (Michelle Loris, 11:34).
• The idea of Christian “dual citizenship”—citizens of both the City of God and the earthly city—frames Catholic responsibility amid political turmoil.

2. American Cardinals’ Moral Stand

• The three American cardinals and Archbishop Broglio openly criticize US foreign and some domestic policies, including:
  • Propping up the Venezuelan regime and undermining democracy
  • Withdrawing foreign aid to the global poor
  • Actions regarding Greenland, NATO alliances, and an apparent tacit acceptance of land grabs by Putin and Xi Jinping
  • Cruelty in immigration enforcement (particularly actions by ICE)
• Chris Odinius: “They have a prophetic role and obligation to say true things. And so they are.” [03:18]
• The cardinals’ statement draws on Leo’s (and Augustine’s) call for an ethical and moral compass.

3. Order, Authority, and the Role of the Church

• Gillespie discusses the concept of “order” in Augustine—ordered peace, not domination.
• “Order is a word that can mean a lot of things. Right? And for some people, order means I’m giving an order. Not, I’m following and submitting to an order. ... That is very much what’s at odds here, or what’s at stake here, right?” [15:29]
• The Church’s historical role in fostering rules-based international order (post-WWII, via the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) is contrasted with its failures (postwar Nazi smuggling, sexual abuse cover-ups).

4. Conscientious Objection and Broader Church Unity

• Archbishop Broglio, despite his conservative stance, supports conscientious objection for Catholic soldiers regarding Greenland, signaling unity across ideological lines, at least on foreign policy.
• The panel notes that domestic issues remain more divisive, with Tobin expressing more outspoken criticism of ICE and inviting Catholics to “scrawl their no on the wall” via action and voting (Dan Rober, 19:30).

5. Internal Church Polarization and the Role of Cardinals

• The cardinals’ joint statement is seen as almost unprecedented, representing Pope Leo’s vision of the College of Cardinals as regional moral voices.
• The Church’s social teaching includes war, peace, and right to life—issues sometimes sidelined in US Catholic discourse (Michelle Loris, 21:41).
• The USCCB (conference of bishops) is presented as slower-moving and more tentative in its public stances, with some bishops closer to administration policy and others, like Tobin, pushing for stronger prophetic witness (Charles Gillespie, 25:13).

6. American Catholicism within the Global Church

• The conversation ties the cardinals’ intervention to Laudato Si’s theme of common planetary responsibility.
• The unity seen in the cardinals’ international stance is contrasted with domestic political silence (“There is no loyal opposition on the conservative side, they all have collapsed like a house of cards.” – Chris Odinius, 27:44).

7. Prophetic Role, Courage, and the Call for Justice

• The panel repeatedly affirms that Church leaders must risk comfort and power to speak truth, invoking parallels to martyred figures in 20th-century European Catholicism and “liberal Protestant clergy putting themselves on the line to defend people who are being brutalized” (Charles Gillespie, 41:43).
• Memorable Quote: “Growth in knowledge and love of eternal things eventually reaches a stage of courage in which one is hungry and thirsty for justice.” – St. Augustine, cited by Michelle Loris [31:25]
• The panel emphasizes that Church moral authority can galvanize both laypeople and leaders to courage and justice even when politics fails.

8. The Tension around Religious Liberty

• The misuse of “religious liberty” as a cover for partisan interests is lamented.
• Bishops and prelates must discern when to use their influence, not merely for shared ideology but to advance justice for all, embodying “the tradition of Jesus Christ telling the truth of the gospel in the world” (Michelle Loris, 31:25; 36:17).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chris Odinius [03:18]: “But when the politics of the nation starts going off the rails, it would be worse if our pastors kept quiet. They have a prophetic role and obligation to say true things. And so they are.”
• Charles Gillespie [07:40]: “The City of God does not propose a political program...it offers valuable reflections...on the search for a more just and peaceful coexistence among peoples.”
• Dan Rober [16:06]: “But the kind of order that St. Augustine is implying...is a divine order. It’s the basis of justice... of love. ... It’s hard to have peace without justice.”
• Charles Gillespie [17:57]: (On Broglio’s statement) “His coming out with that particular statement spoke volumes on the foreign policy issue...very clear.”
• Michelle Loris [21:41]: “This is one of the moments where ... seeing a dominant narrative…[about] the Church’s commitment to the right to life is about the issues of abortion and euthanasia...what’s so interesting about the Cardinal’s joint statement is it’s a reminder the Church’s teaching has always made space for how we confront tragic situations that might require war as a last resort.”
• Chris Odinius [27:44]: “How beautiful to be unanimous at this moment where there is no loyal opposition on the conservative side... So how nice to have a moral authority like the Church of Rome in America to be doing that.”
• Charles Gillespie [41:43]: “Cardinals need to be willing to put themselves on the line the way that many liberal Protestant clergy are putting themselves on the line to defend people who are being brutalized.”
• Michelle Loris [31:25]: (Quoting Augustine) “Growth in knowledge and love of eternal things eventually reaches a stage of courage in which one is hungry and thirsty for justice.”

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:13 — Discussion begins on Pope Leo’s “world address,” the “prophetic” voice needed from US cardinals.
• 06:07 — Introduction of St. Augustine’s City of God as a framework.
• 09:52 — The cardinals’ statement: a call for a renewed moral vision in US policy.
• 12:33 — Augustine’s ideal of “order” (ordered peace), the Church’s role in international law.
• 17:57 — Broglio’s stance on Greenland and conscientious objection for Catholic soldiers.
• 19:30 — Cardinal Tobin’s challenge to ICE and encouragement to Catholics to act.
• 21:41 — The Catholic Church’s teaching on war, right to life and the broadening of Catholic public witness.
• 24:00 — The cardinals as regional moral voices, per Pope Leo’s vision.
• 27:44 — Reflection on American Catholicism’s global role and Church moral authority in the US.
• 31:25 — Augustine’s invocation of justice, courage, and prophetic speech by the Church.
• 35:20 — Examination of religious freedom rhetoric and criticism of selective application.
• 43:59 — Call for bishops to risk comfort and act prophetically, echoing martyrs of conscience.
• End — Final reflections, closing prayer, and benediction.

Conclusion

This episode spotlights a watershed moment for American Catholic leadership, as prominent cardinals (and, significantly, one conservative archbishop) reject the moral directions of the current US administration on both foreign and domestic fronts. Grounded in the theological vision of St. Augustine and the recent teachings of Pope Leo, the conversation urges the Church—and all Catholics—to rediscover its prophetic calling, prioritize justice, transcend polarization, and act with courage for the dignity of all. The unity reflected in the cardinals’ public statement is presented both as a source of hope and a challenge for American Catholicism to engage deeply in national and global moral debates.