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Clarissa E. Francis, "Black Women's Bodily Autonomy, Sexual Freedom, and Pleasure: Explorations of the Hot Girl Movement" (Routledge, 2025)
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Welcome to the New Books Network.
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C
Welcome to the New Books Network. My name is Dr. Zachary Williams and I am your host today. And I have the honor and the pleasure to of inviting and welcoming Dr. Clarissa Francis, an award winning sexuality educator and scholar activist who's dedicated to fostering inclusive, liberatory conversations that empower black women to reclaim narratives around bodily autonomy, sexual freedom and pleasure. And today we're here to talk about her book published with Rutledge Press, entitled Black Women's Bodily Autonomy, Sexual Freedom and Pleasure Explorations of the Hot Girl Movement. And I'd like to welcome you to the New Books Network. Dr. Francis, how are you doing today?
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D
Thank you for having me. I'm well. How are you?
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C
Well, I'm great. I'm excited about our conversation, particularly in this era of a lot of interesting conversations about relationships and a lot of the other subject matter in your book. So let's get into it. I'm interested in and in what your work and what your research and what your expertise has to say about a lot of what we see happening and taking place in our society. So first, can you tell us about yourself, your background and how you came to write this very important book?
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D
Okay, so some information about me?
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C
Yes, Just, you know, just tell us about yourself and, you know, just your
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D
journey from my background. But I am, let's see, I could start with I'm originally from Cleveland, Ohio. I studied at Africana Studies, Women's Studies and let's see. And going into Houston, I've done work in healthcare education, which led into my work with sexual health. But most of it was rooted in wanting to understand these originally wanted to understand the psychological effects of slavery on black people's experiences. And I became really interested in not only understanding the history and the background, you know, of the problem or stating the problem and issues and disproportionate rates But I also wanted to get deeper into understanding how this impact health and also wanted to do more work around healing and pleasure. And so I So I started in undergrad of being a healthcare educator in my. So it was still something that was. That I had that was like on the side. And I got. As I got deeper into the work, it was when I went to Clark Atlanta University, I started working doing some work with students with the health care educators on campus. And so was able. Being at HBCU in Atlanta, Georgia, being able to do more work closely related to my area of focus of looking at black communities. I wanted to see. I. While I was at Clark, I studied Africana women's studies and I was really interested in black women's sexuality and sexual health. And so I did work related to sexual, you know, Black women's sexuality and sexual specifically. I actually did work with the women with the students on campus and women in the community starting to work in HIV AIDS awareness. And again, as I mentioned, wanted to do more work with focusing on the healing and the pleasure. And so I wanted to include this, that healing and pleasure in the conversations in addition to having that understanding of, you know, where maybe roots of the problem or issue.
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C
Oh, that's. That's good. You know, I want to ask you, you know, if. If you know, you could in your own way walk us through, you know, your book's major contents, which you would like to emphasize and focus on its major subjects and themes. If you could, you know, if you could do that and, and just kind of, you know, share with us, you know, you know, so from COVID to cover, sort of a visual for those who haven't had a chance to read yet, but who will, I'm sure want to. To read it. You know, following after our interview, just walk us through your books major content, subjects and themes, if you could do that.
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D
Okay. So in this book, so it's based on my dissertation where I as I mentioned of my interest with black women's sexual sexuality, sexual health and the work that I was doing while I was in Atlanta, Georgia. I was interested in including the stories or experiences background of those who were doing work specifically doing work for that was guiding black women on their sexual liberation journey. And so the book is set up where similarly structured. But I added the newer pieces for the book versus what's included in the dissertation is first the introduction. I gave a lot of background of how I got into this work of where my background academically and even sharing some of my personal background. Because this issue is definitely Personal. And I. So starting out with the introduction, just preparing you for the work. And I include a chapter backing it up, where it's a lit review of sharing some of the history and stating the problem that typically comes up when speaking of sexual health. In different literature that backs up this work on black women's sexual liberation. And then in chapters three to five, I include excerpts from those that I interviewed and during my dissertation. And it includes those from various backgrounds, from doulas to. To healthcare professionals, those who are in a aerosomatic work as body workers and even one in the beauty industry, you know, who identify as pleasure activists who are guiding black women on their sexual liberation journey. And so the. I can share the. The titles which I love. So before getting into with 3 and 5, I actually have a chapter on. Because I actually specifically focus the work on. Focus my dissertation on the work that was being done in Atlanta, Georgia. Because while there's work being done all over the world as it relates to black women sexual liberation, I wanted to bring attention to the work that was being done in Atlanta. And I wanted to raise awareness and honor the. Of what Atlanta contributed to this work. It looks like there are different places and spaces that people are able to be, you know, whether they're on their own journey of sexual liberation or. Or as a professional in this work of guiding others. But it was something special I noticed about Atlanta that would bring people there as professionals and personally not only to, you know, not only for the cultural. The cultural aspect of Atlanta, Georgia, you know, how it contributes to black culture and also just bringing attention to the work that has been done as it relates to civil rights, but none specifically as it relates to sexual liberation. So I have a chapter Atlanta Got something to say. Civil rights freaknique and pleasure activism in Atlanta, Georgia. And again, that's just shedding light on how while civil rights movement took place in, you know, all over the country. But Atlanta is one of the places that, you know, that we shed light to what was being done in Atlanta. And then I wanted to also, you know, bring up the point with. When speaking of sexual liberation, of the contribution and the existence of freaknik, you know, being in Atlanta, like that's something that's adding something very special to Atlanta in addition to the music culture. And so shedding light on those who. The artists that are from Atlanta and their contributions to the liberation movement, black women and for. For just in the black community. And then chapter three is. It was the music for me the influence of pop culture on black women's sexual Liberation. We're speaking again, as I mentioned, about how the role of music play in black women's sexual liberation. Like in the interview of asking the different women what contributed to their. It contributed into how they got into the work that they're doing. They, they mentioned different music artists such as Lil Kim, tlc, Janet Jackson, and then, you know, modern, not modern, because they're still very modern and relevant artists today. But even of the newer artists such as Megan Thee, Stallion, Cardi B, and other artists like Dolce, you know, who have contributed to women's, you know, have in some way represented what it could look like for a liberated black woman or even a liberated woman of color. And then chapter four, Women Come First, Centering Black Women's Pleasure in Education, Practice and Advocacy, where I am bringing out some of the work that is being specific to the work that's being done and not just focusing on what's in the literature or in scholarship, what we typically may come across in our books and the text. But I wanted to shed light on the work that was being done in the community that may not always be mentioned or shared in academic spaces. I wanted to include the work that was being done outside of the classroom, outside of textbooks, but actually being done when speaking at sexual liberation is more than reading a book or reading a textbook or reading a pamphlet, you know, about some topic, but it's about the actual hands on work. So what that could look like is aerosomatic work to actually working through trauma, through a disconnection, you know, within the body. So that reconnection, identifying, you know, what is, when thinking about that healing and pleasure, you know, how can, how can one navigate, you know, this sexual liberation journey when they've had certain experiences or when they have identity that has been historically denied protection, respect, pleasure, bodily autonomy. And then there's the last chapter, Real Hot Girl Shift. Black Sexual Liberation in Atlanta and beyond is where I identify five ways that individuals, groups and entities can contribute to the Hot Girl movement. And in the also, what's included with the book. I have some resources of those who have, who I've identified, who have been identified in the text or by those who I interviewed and those who I've actually witnessed of doing work in Atlanta, Georgia, and not just in Atlanta, but around the world, of doing work to guide black women on their sexual liberation journeys. And I have a Hot Girl Movement playlist that's included. So these are songs from many, for many decades. It's something I believe and there's something in there for everybody.
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C
Let us Know what's on your playlist. Let us know.
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D
There's so many. There's so many songs. But I'll say let me go here. Let me turn to. Because there I. I want to say there's like, maybe it's like 10 pages. I think
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C
that's a soundtrack. Soundtrack of a movement.
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D
Yeah. At least this is more. This is like a. It is. It's. So I'll say it's an alphabetical or I'll just mention some songs like I have. So I really. One of the. One of the ways that's recommended for those to be involved is collaborations. So I'll highlight some that I thought was really, really cool about the artists today. Like that there are so many collaborations with each other and even with male artists where before we've had like maybe one or two artists to choose from and we had to choose. But are you a Lil Kim fan or a Foxy Brown fan or are you, you know, and we still have it today where they compare. But there's so many more. There's so much more opportunities for many, you know, artists to be out, especially, you know, black women artists and rappers specifically. But I also include not just hip hop and rap, but I'll say some of the collaborations or just some songs. Let's see, one that was cool was Big Energy with Latto Mariah Carey. She was sampling one of her songs. One of my favorite songs with Megan Thee Stallion, Big Old Freak. Let's see some other songs here. Church Girl by Beyonce. That was one. I had Toni Braxton come on over here. Have tlc creep. Some of the. There's a collab with Sierra featuring Lola Brooks and Lady London with the girls, which is the girls mix. Chloe and Haley's do it remix with. Featuring Doja, Cat City Girls and Lotto. I love Janelle Monae. So I have songs including Electric Lady Queen, which is. Which features Erykah Badu, Girls Need Love by Summer Walker and she had multiple versions of Girls Needle 1 featuring Drake. Let's see. Trying to see if I see some of my earlier, earlier artists in here. It's alphabetized. I even have. I have ndi, not my Hair tlc. I'm good at being bad. I have collaborations with like Lorella, Megan, Thee Stallion, Hot Girl Summer is Here, My Neck, My Back by Kya. There's so many. Like I said, it's like a long list. Even songs by Millie Jackson, you know, to Janet Jackson, just, you know, from, you know, something for everybody.
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C
That's so powerful. I wanted you to say that, to mention those for our listeners, because when they get sort of an understanding of, you know, the. So the cultural content of Black. Black culture in life as you are, you know, articulating and expressing it and researching it in your work, I think it's phenomenal work because we have these sort of polarities in our society, these pendulum swings, you know, that are sort of existing, like intention, creative tension. Sometimes, you know, whether it's related to secular and sacred, sensual and spiritual body and mind, and particularly African presence on American shores has had to, since its inception to juggle and to wrestle with social meaning associated with all those different aspects of ourselves. Dubois talked about two warring souls in one dark body whose darkest strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder. And of course, a lot of his. You articulating. A lot of black feminists are articulating this. This. This emphasis on liberatory, you know, praxis and experience and expression, even as society itself tries to contain, suppress, question, critique, yet still admire and adore and be obsessed over. So it's just interesting that you're talking about this and even talking about, as you and a lot of other colleagues, pleasure, activism, pleasure as an act of activism in health. Right and our reproductive rights are a part of that conversation. They're not separate conversations. They are part of a holistic conversation. Just like leaders and activists have total holistic lives. People may only emphasize one aspect, like as a leader or as a figure or a role player, but people are everyday people. But that's this sort of microscopic view, this intrusive, you know, view of black life in America, which leaves a lot of people in culture not aware of, you know, what it is to be black in human right, what it is to express and experience freedom and liberation. And for a lot of people, even through slavery and its aftermath, you know, there's been that fear factor of, you know, black expression, of joy, of pleasure, of peace and all of that and what that represents for society. So I'm glad that you're covering all of that and the Question, too. How does it also dovetail with this sort of juggling of, in one sense, the politics of black respectability, but in another sense, the politics of black joy and pleasures you articulated? How do you, in your work, see those two being in relationship with one another as you look through different examples in history and culture and how black life is commercialized, how it's viewed, and whether or not African Americans are able to retain agency over our own autonomy?
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As you're saying, you said the politics of joy, of respectability and politics of joy.
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Yeah, yeah. And are they. Yeah. Are they kind of. Are they competing? Do they work together or some of those projects, you know, are they sort of, you know, at odds with each other? Or is that sort of this. This compilation, you know, trying to. To keep all these different sides and pieces, you know, of ourselves as. As a people, culturally, as a people together, while, you know, society's, you know, society kind of looks on and. And whatever. But, I mean, how do you see those in relationship to one another?
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So, yeah, I could speak to. With politics of respectability. So it's this thought that if we present ourselves in such a way, we can then earn respect. And this has not just been something that we see with black women, but just as in the community, this is something that, throughout history of being this thought that if we present ourselves in a certain way, if we dress a certain way, if we speak a certain way, if we, you know, carry ourselves in a certain way, then we will be able to earn and get the respect and treatment and being recognized as a human and being, you know, being this respectable person, seen as a professional. Whereas we have learned and seen in many ways that that doesn't matter if it is. If there is a. If a system that's put in place is rooted in the oppression and the belief of a group of people being inferior, there is. No matter what you do say or what you wear or how you present yourself, you still have. You still risk being harmed. You still risk, you know, at risk of being. Having your life, you know, taken away or being not acknowledged for your accomplishments or your humanness, you know, being recognized. And so when speaking specifically with black women and respectability, politics, and then in the conversation with joy at how it competes is oftentimes we will. We have internalized these messages around respectability, and we. We uphold these. These. These standards between each other. And so we. We judge each other and we'll critique each other and, you know, we'll say comments like you making us look bad. Are you setting us back you just set us back some years. Like, I heard a comment being made that some of the artists today, specifically the black women artists, are degradation to the community and setting us back. Whereas I can point out many ways and examples of what could potentially be hindering our liberation, you know, and that is not one of them. That is. And I argue that is actually and specifically with the hot girl movement, you know, with the term hot girl. Hot girl summer being inspired by Megan Thee Stallion, when describing what's a hot girl. And what's a hot girl summer is about being unapologetically you having fun. And that is. Is some. Is something so radical in one deciding to show up unapologetically as yourself, when historically you have been told that everything about you is wrong or is not worthy of protection, respect, love, pleasure, joy, you know, and deciding that in this body, in this black body, this black woman body, I'm advocating for my joy, my pleasure and celebrating that and encouraging other black women to do this as well, whatever that looks like. And that's something that's important to even understand the diversity and what joy and pleasure looks like for a black person. That we are not a monolithic, you know, group. We have some shared history and experiences. And, you know, we've been impacted by the systems that have the origin of many of the systems in place, you know, rooted in different forms of oppression. And so we have ways that we share experiences. We share some of the, you know, heard some of the messages. We can have different upbringing, be in different, completely different parts of the country or even in different countries. And we could share some stories and like, wait, you too. Like, y'. All. That happened in your house too. Like, y' all used to eat this. Or that's something that your parents said to you too, whether it's good or believe to be bad, but also to recognize those differences, you know, of what joy and pleasure looks like for individuals. And that is something that Audre Lorde speaks on of us celebrating our differences. And I think that is something that could be beneficial for in this movement, but also in any movement towards liberation. Is not all freedom or liberation looks the same. And so when you ask, is it competing with each other? It can. And also it can be used as a tool to, you know, in response to respectability, politics in different, multiple forms of oppression. I love the different movements and the different organizations and entities and influencers who are. Who are celebrating and prioritizing and promoting rest, joy, peace, you know, those who have historically, you know, been, you know, denied all of these things. And then some. And in this. Is this a radical act? You know, it's radical to. To prioritize and encourage, cheerlead, celebrate, you know, this joy, you know, and I was with joy by definition is with happiness and pleasure, you know, and it's like what pleases you? It's like what makes you happy. And then what is it? What would it feel like for you to be joy? I just offered a. A workshop on centering joy and justice work. I specifically, I was specifically speaking to sexuality professionals, but it's something that I've been interested in lately, of how even when doing this deep work, you know, whether as a scholar, you know, of documenting and exploring and learning the experiences, you know, of. Of oppression, but actually taking care of yourself while doing this work, you know, while we are addressing the work in a nonprofit organizations in different health entities, you know, you're the caregiver, you're the person very passionate and heavily involved in improving the lives of others, you know, in the community. And just, you know, and I just, I come along and remind those doing this work is that remember to take care of yourself. You know, remember, you know, at something called you Lord says the speaking on of with. It's not of about, you know, about self care is preservation, you know, is. It's not self indulgent. It's, you know, we think it's something selfish and you know, just normalizing that of taking care of yourself, filling your. Filling your cup as you're pouring into others.
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C
Isn't that interesting? Because in our society, people malign self care and politics is seen as being soft or weak. And you know, people have been seen as heroic and heroic to, you know, be like these, you know, you know, labor of love, you know, to shoulder burdens. But like I said, there's a cost to that. And do we have to have that cost? And can we have this sort of holistic alignment? And you're saying that the building of all movements of all kinds is relational. It's the politics of the personal. The personal is political. And what is most personal is what is most pertinent to people. But there's a disconnect in our society as it relates to seeing, experiencing and appreciating people for who people are. Of course, Supreme Court cases talk about corporations are being people, but people are seen as invisible and seen as disposable. So I'm glad that you're speaking to that and some of those voices and ancestors and figures who have been bodacious, unapologetic and bold in pushing Back against systems in society, institutions that seek to denigrate and to erase, practice, erasure against black culture and black existence in teaching and sharing with the whole society, whole country, how to endure in the face of oppression, to still have joy in sorrow songs and in different forms of blues and jazz. And even how scholars like Gwendolyn Cole, echoing what you were talking about earlier in her book Check It While I Wreck it, connects black women, black culture and the hip hop public sphere. Talks about how the figures like Lil Kim and others give an ode to Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith and others, you know, and wild women sing the blues and other scholars like Julia Jordan Zachary and erotic testimonies and black women's pursuit of being wild and free and just Black culture seeking that through expression, through culture and how that is seen as a front and sometimes in society and via images and all that does not want to see us as human, right? We were born and bred as beasts of burden, right? But we have a humanity, an expansive humanity that continues to show itself strong and especially in the subject you're talking about, you know, which, where, you know, you have of course, over people have been over sexualized, adultified from the inception, arrival on these shores to now, and even in film, in pop culture and the like, how our humanity is not necessarily, you know, appreciative value, but when you look at all society, you know, in evidences a particular type of humanity that sort of, you know, participates in those, you know, everyday practices like what you're talking about. But how is it seen as being odd or awkward or bad when its subjects are of black persuasion, black cultural persuasion? And how has black culture, not only within its own cultural group, but also for the larger society and even for the world, help to serve as an instrument to help people to get in touch with their complicated, expansive, beautiful, messy humanity. And is that that a good thing? Because it's the size of the per that, you know, talk about freedom and are based on it. A lot of people experience a lot of frustration, a lot of suppression from not being able to exercise freedom. And so I mean, how do you, how do you think that your work, you know, comments on. On that as a way to open, you know, these opportunities and avenues of freedom, Even as it talks about how freedom, liberatory freedom, as you're talking about, is also a reference to the state of our democracy as a society, you know, being repressed, people's voices, people's, you know, rights, fundamental rights, care, being seen as being soft and weak, but it's also laborious and arduous. So how do you think your work speaks to a larger themes of liberation and liberatory efforts to free people in
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D
society, so to speak, to liberation overall, of how my work, let's see, speaks to that, I would say first about being informed. And you could be informed by text literature, but you also can be informed by experiences. And so it could be your lived experiences or the experiences of others. And that's important to have an understanding of the history, you know, where you come from, when we are speaking about these systems and institutions, to even have an understanding of these systems put in place when you understand the history and the origin of some of these systems in place. When you look at the origins of modern gynecology, it was the use of enslaved black women's bodies, practices on their bodies without anesthesia, where you had to wear that as something that is mandatory now. And when we look at even the state of black women in maternal health, you know, it's this understanding, you know, kind of a better understanding. Well, when you look at the origins of gynecology, it would make sense that we are facing, you know, this. This epidemic of black women losing their lives, you know, in childbirth or following childbirth. So that. So that was just having that understanding of the history and being open and to different forms of healing, you know, or therapy, any way to, you know, do work with intergenerational healing. And it's. It's healing is wanting to return or arrive for the first time, you know, to a space of, you know, of restoration of that joy that we speak of, that pleasure, that wellness, what healing looks like. This could look different. So something. It takes being. Having an open mind of what we believe is to be the answer or the solution. Again, this could look different. This could look different for different individuals. And it takes also collaboration. It's collective work. Many of the liberation movements, while we may honor and recognize an individual, you know, as leading certain movements, it took more than one person, you know, it took many people in many different roles, you know, to play in that. And so not, not, not underestimating the. The opportunities of collaboration, you know, and that's really important to liberation work. Liberation movements, like, we all play a role, you know, whether you're the educator, you know, whether you're the researcher, whether you're the person out in the community, whether you are in the administrator or in legislation, be a participant in the community, like, actually be a community member, support. So to actually inform, like, what does the community need? Like, what does liberation. What we may think the community needs or what an individual needs may not be what they actually need and what's a priority for them. So actually including those who we claim that we want to help, you know, being involved in the movement, in the liberation and finding ways to, to be sustainable, you know, and I feel, and there's different ways, you know, with sustainability, you know, and movements feel like this is something that lessons learn from past movements, that we can learn like what was done in the past, what worked, what didn't work, what might have worked back then and what will work today. And involving youth like that is something that is a constant whenever you involve younger people. Like when we look at civil rights movement, black power movement, it was young people that were leading these movements or that was on the ground doing in the sit ins, the marches and fighting, you know, for our rights. You know, I think we do, if we take more time to. While there's sometimes some disconnect with the younger generations and earlier generations, there's so many, there's so many opportunities where we can educate each other, we can join forces and really contribute. So and that's sustainability. You know, when we think about legacy, when we think of how will this be, how will this continue and grow after our time, when we're no longer to participate or fight in the way that we can today and that you have to include young people, you have to figure out ways how to fund these initiatives in the movement and what would that look like? Is it grants, is it donations, is it finding ways to, to bring in revenue, you know, is it way, is it finding ways to, to lean in on the community, you know, which we've had to do before. And it just seems like we may be moving back into that, into that space again where we really have to depend on each other and go within the community and not so much depend on others. And I think that's a part of the movement also. Is this is a for us bias approach, you know, of not depending on others to fight for us or to care about our healing, about our liberation, that we have to be the ones leading in the ones who are, who really doing the work, you know.
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C
It's so powerful what you're saying when you talk about sustainability and there's a lot of overlap with efforts of layering and flowering of communities and also serving as a buffer against the attacks atrocities and the, the totality of those. The barbarity totality of that. You know we create separate spaces. You know was Marcus Anthony Hunter and Sylvia Robinson talk about chocolate cities and and in these spaces, you know the chitlin circuits and you know the, the juke joints and the restaurants and the churches where you know, regular, regular society would. Would, you know, dichotomize stuff and separate people into groups and in social categories and all this other stuff and in our spaces when we were, you know, Under Jane and Jim Crow, we oftentimes were sort of existing and operating within those spaces. And, you know, there was overlap and there has been overlap and there is overlap intergenerationally and whether it's class wise, caste wise, you know. And so how do we create places where we can be free and even within ourselves as, as a people, individually and collectively? And so you're right, this sort of push pull effect of the ebb and flow of events brings us to yet another point. Some people call them reconstruction eras where we're reconstructing yet again, rebuilding and retooling and renewing and restoring. And there's so much interesting power in what your work is talking about and in how it relates and resonates with other works like Ruth Feldstein, how it Feels to Be Free, who talks about the work of Miriam Makeba and Diane Carroll and Nia Simone and others and how their lives overlap, as with, you know, I think a recent work entitled the Sisterhood and Toni Morrison, you know, being a sort of shepherd to bring together, you know, the likes of the Audre Lords, June Jordans and others in their work and how it is individual but communal, but also too, how there's a performative aspect to it for the larger society, but also there is the sort of everydayness of it too. So there can exist a civil rights legacy in Atlanta King legacy, but also can exist frequently with it. And they coalesce. And it's not so much should be sort of analysis on particular values on black life, which to me seems more like hypocrisy, but more so on the forces and systems that black life are up against. As you're talking about articulating and the creative news inspired ways, individual and collective, of how African Americans have reinvented themselves and found ways to be human and reinvent what humanity represents in a society, in spaces and places and regions that can be, in institutions that can be hostile and inhospitable, even though they espouse hospitality, Southern hospitality, hospitality areas. And so this beauty, this gift, this genius of black life to nurture and rebuild and restore and rejuvenate and all is, is very powerful. And so, so I'm glad that you're, you're talking about this subject and this subject which sometimes makes, you know, African Americans feel self conscious, right? Because, you know, we're, we're trying to find our place, but as you're saying, sometimes we just recognize that our place is being who we are authentically, unapologetically. And, and so, so I'm glad that you're having those conversations. And I want to also say too, I mean, I know you work is an ode to Atlanta's hot girl movement and to Megan Thee stallion. But you know, I have a colleague who reviewed one of your works who had a lot to say about you. And let me read what her review says of you. Dr. Clarissa E. Francis, aka the Real Hot Girl Doc, resolutely reflects on her journey for sexual liberation and empowerment. Her journey offers a shared experience that resonates with black women in a generation needing healing. And she goes on to say that your observations take us from a historicized, pained black female body to a sexually liberated, pleasured black female body where self care, pleasure activism and sexual healing are valued and not shamed. And her trailblazing advocacy and intellectual thought on pleasure activism is some real quote unquote, hot girl shit and a must read, right? So that's from Dr. Rabona J. Bell, Chair professor of Critical Race and Gender Sexuality Studies at Cal Poly Humboldt. We went to graduate school together. And so, you know, so essentially it's a small world, but see this sort of the flowering and us inspiring and motivating each other and even critiquing and holding each other accountable but also building, lifting each other up is the stuff of what black culture is based on, even our black cultural productivity and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and creativity. But it's, it's, it's like, you know, kind of was said of one of, I think Greg Tate's book Everything but the Burden. People want to dabble in black culture, sample it, but unless you, you know, experience it and value that experience in all of its complexity, totality and sort of, you, universalness, you can't fully appreciate it. So it's beautiful to see works where we are pushing back against what some consider established sort of social conventions in societies that have oftentimes practiced the opposite of what is said to be moral or acceptable or whatever. And so reclaiming that space, not just scholarly space, but showing that that is just know, facet of everyday existence in everyday life. I appreciate that about your work and even in language and linguistics and, and even images and imagery and even the whole thing about, you know, even what people see on Hollywood and in Hollywood and on screen about, you know, so the expression of black love and, and black, you know, you know, pleasure or freedom and how that is, whether it's, you know, as orators or as you said, mothers who are wanting to seek the best type of health care or even black girls or black boys Playing and this whole idea of freedom goes beyond some of the narrow ways in which people have often characterized it. But it's an interesting and beautiful example of how African American culture is. Is an interesting, empowering and beautiful culture in and of itself. What would you say about your work's relevance to today in terms of what you're seeing in society as it relates to what you see happening in the news or within the relationship sphere? Are your messages in your works coming across? Where do you see that, you know, as it relates to, you know, conversations? Maybe you have or some, you know, other works that you're reading or even, you know, a lot of maybe what you may see and, you know, in conversations, interviews, podcasts and the like.
- [52:37]
D
So relationships is interesting and I'll speak to that. Something that when we. Even in conversations about liberation, what we're fighting for or what we claiming, we speak of how. We speak a lot about how it has impact us financially. We speak. We begun to have more conversations on how it's impacted us mentally. And even now having more conversations about how with our health, something that I seeing often our conversations about relationships, about black men and black women relationships. And I often see, especially in podcasts of this, I see different conversations, one of comparing oppression of who had it worse or who is it more. Is it tougher, I guess, in a sense, to be a black man or a black woman? Or when it's like, I don't know, that's just a. That's a competition or something. I was like, who wants to win that? Like, who wants to win that debate of who got it worse? Like, what do you win if you are the one who is the most oppressed? And so with the work, a goal of this work of censoring with black women, sexual liberation is that it inspires, inspires, encourages and offer models away of what liberation could look like for even black men, you know, I start to see more of conversations of where black men are being more open and vulnerable about sharing their experiences with trauma, with sexual trauma, with their upbringing, you know, and I believe that a part of that is in response to seeing Black women on our journeys, you know, of healing and trying to unpack these experiences, these messages as it relates to our body, our sexuality, our health, our, you know, um, in our, you know, overall wellness. And when we come into these relationships together, we coming in with our experiences, with our trauma, with our baggage, and not. Not many of us were given the tools, you know, or the language to have conversations with each other or even to know how to Support each other as we are on our own journeys. And so. So I would love. While some of the conversations are a bit disappointing, but I feel like it's necessary to continue to have in the conversations because that is something definitely impacted when thinking of how have the effects of oppression when we think of slavery. I think it was Sir Jill Nelson who was in a conversation with someone of this. Of the dilemma between what black men and black women, of Black women feeling of still having a feeling that, you know, I guess of not feeling protected by a black man or, you know, and certain. And when we think of as enslave, you know, of that inability to be able to protect the black women, you know, or their families in a way that, you know, you feel that they should have been able to. And there's still this guilt around that and this hurt around that. And even beyond slavery and other. Other eras as well, and even today, where if we have more conversations of unpacking that. Unpacking that trauma and naming those things and versus trying to compare our oppression and attacking each other and telling each other what. Instead of saying, this is what y' all can do better, we can say, this is what I need. You know, it. You know, and then with that, that's what. When I speak about healing, when I talk about. I take those who attend my workshops or different events, I take them. We go through a process of. We talk, we unpack our experiences and then trauma and messages, and then I talk about healing. You know, what that looks like, and just want to normalize healing, you know, whatever that is, Whether it's therapy or having a spiritual advisor, whether it's aerosomatic body work or, you know, it's just so many different forms of, you know, of therapy and healing, you know, so we just normalize that. So when we come into. When we enter these relationships or in these conversations, we could come from a different space. Not just speaking from the lens of our trauma, but speaking through a lens of healing. And that was the ultimate goal. If the goal is liberation of all and that's of us coming together and being able to build, then that should prevent some of these conversations, or at least in the way that we've been having some of the conversations. I just, you know, that's just something that I see. I don't always pay attention to everything that's in the news at the
- [58:57]
C
one,
- [58:57]
D
because it is not always a reflection of what we are actually experiencing in our own lived experiences and in our communities. That's not always shed light, you know, they always Shed light on what's happening in our communities in the news. And so it's like we know what's going on. You know, we had conversations just like we've had to before when we was delivering pamphlets, you know, in our own newsletters. You know, we still have our way of sharing information. You know, that's something that I appreciate about social media is you can still find out what's. If you follow a page that's designated to a city, you know, or a state, we could find out what's going on in our own communities versus having to depend on, you know, national, you know, or even sometimes the local news that may not share that. So that's something I, you know, is, I think is an opportunity and something I would say relevance of what the high girl movement, it's just building as we build those relationships with each other, just better relationships as we. I do, I'm doing work with, in the workshops that I offer with black women, just improving that relationship with ourselves of how to be a better us, you know, but also ultimately it's, you know, how we can show up better in our relationships, how you can show up better in parenting, you know, or even showing up in your work.
- [60:37]
C
I think it's, it's amazing work and I'm, I'm, you know, glad that your, your scholarship and your scholarly activism. Pleasure activism also emphasizes healing and, and reconstruction reserve and sort of restorative. A restorative component to it and, and you focus on lived experience because, you know, public policy and another area we didn't really get to talk about this time, but hopefully be able to maybe talk again sometime. And I'd like to try to maybe have you in conversation with, you know, likes of Dr. Julia Jordan Zachary and who's at Wake Forest and gender and sexuality studies has done a lot with black women. Also Diane Stewart, who wrote about slavery and what she calls Black love, Black women, America's assault on African American marriage, and how that conversation along with your work could help us continue to build these broader conversations that you're talking about that are happening but can continue to happen more. Because you're right, healing has to be a component of that, you know, rather than sort of the, the ways in which, you know, media, social media, media society looks at black culture and black life in. In a way that doesn't really center, you know, per our personhood individually or collectively. So I'm glad your, your work is recentering that in the areas that are about, you know, very personal and close experiences as others are doing in other areas to re examine how do we look at black life, to even push past boundaries, to be very creative and inventive about how we go about healing. If I could ask, what are you working on now? What's next for you in your scholarship and your activism, scholarly activism?
- [62:23]
D
Now let's see, what am I working on? Well, writing is something so, so working on different, different writings I'm doing, I've been spending most of my time with my work in consulting work. And so I, I work with nonprofit organizations in schools and, and health entities around grant support. So when I speak about that sustainability, those who specifically are doing work that are addressing health disparities specifically in maternal health, sexual health and mental health in the communities. And lately I'm here in Cleveland, Ohio. So for the last couple of years I've been spending time here of doing work in the community and you know, just looking for opportunities to contribute, you know, so also with programming and training and so supporting those who are doing this work is really important and so you know, looking, looking and more open, you know, and open to opportunities to be able to support different entities that are doing work to address the health disparities in the community. Making sure that they're okay, you know, when looking at that, that self care and stress management. But also. Doing the work with grant work. That's probably what I've been also most involved in in the last couple years with grant funded programs and also just helping nonprofit organizations, you know, receive funding, you know, to support the work that they're doing in the communities. Let's see what else. I'm looking forward to traveling again soon. I have some different speaking events coming up and so that's, that's probably mostly what I've been doing. I'm writing, doing my consulting work and speaking and taking care of myself in the process.
- [65:00]
C
That's, that's incredible. And want to thank you for taking time with us to share your work and how your work is helping to blaze and pioneer trails and pathways of not only bridging scholarship and activisms which for those of us who do that work they are sort of, there's a symbiosis, there always is and overlap in African American culture, but also that we're sort of in healing aspects and reminding us in both the scholarship and your activism how vital and valuable that is. And so again looking forward to seeing what other great work comes from you and wish you well in that and that endeavor. And again, thank you for taking the time to interview with us and hopefully we'll talk again soon. Sometimes.
- [65:54]
D
Yes. Look forward to it. Thank you for having me.