← New Books Network
New Books Network
Craig Fehrman, "This Vast Enterprise: A New History of Lewis & Clark" (Simon & Schuster, 2026)
00:59:00
Loading summary
Transcript77 lines
- [00:02]
Announcer
Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red Bull Summer All Day Play. You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit red bull.com brightsummerahead to learn more. See you this summer.
- [00:28]
Craig Fairman
Have you ever rearranged your furniture and discovered the carpet underneath looks brand new while the rest of it looks, well, not so new? It's time for a carpet upgrade. At the Home Depot we have stylish choices at simple prices from all the top brands. Best of all, we can install it for you starting at only 49 cents per square foot. So all you have to do is pick your perfect floor. Start your carpet project today at the Home Depot. How doers get more done Exclusions apply For licenses see homedepot.com licensenumbers
- [00:58]
Announcer
so good,
- [00:59]
Craig Fairman
so good, so good.
- [01:00]
Announcer
Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom Rack stores now and up to 60% off. Stock up and save on the brands you love like Vince Sam, edelman frame and free people. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack
- [01:25]
Craig Fairman
welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:30]
Interviewer
Welcome everyone. My name is Raymond Williams and I'm a host at the New Books Network. Today we are speaking with Craig Fairman, author of this Vast Enterprise, a new history of Lewis and Clark published by Avid Reader Press. Craig Fairman is a journalist and historian who spent five years writing and researching this Vast Enterprise, which is a New York Times Best Selling and Publisher's Weekly best selling book. His first book, Author in Chief, the Untold Story of Our Presidents and the Books They Wrote, which is another amazing book that I recommend that you all read if you have already. He has also edited the book the Best presidential writing from 1789 to the present. He has written for the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal and he lives in Indiana with his wife and children. Craig Fairman, welcome to the New Books Network.
- [02:23]
Craig Fairman
Hey man, thanks for having me. I'm excited to do this.
- [02:25]
Interviewer
Thank you for being here. So tell us a little bit about what this Vast Enterprise is about.
- [02:31]
Craig Fairman
Well, it's about Lewis and Clark, but hopefully it's about Lewis and Clark in a little bit of a different way than what you learned about him in grade school or something like that. The Expedition obviously means a lot of things to a lot of people. And when I first started working on this book, I did it because I knew it was a big adventure story. My first book, you mentioned author in chief. I'm very proud of that book. But it's a book that's really set in libraries. It's about books, ideas, and I care a lot about that stuff. But I wanted a challenge. It's something different for my next book. And so I was like, let's get outside. Let's. Let's do something epic. And there's nothing really more epic than Lewis and Clark in American history. But I also didn't want to just rehash the history that we all already knew. So I read their journals, and I'm sure we'll talk about this a lot. They wrote more than a million words, one of the reviews of my book pointed out, and I hadn't thought about it this way. It's five times as long as Moby Dick. So these journals are just an amazing resource. And when I started reading them, I realized that there were moments and there were people that I didn't know that I kind of, even as a historian, only knew half of the Lewis and Clark story because I was always paying attention to Lewis and Clark, and they're amazing heroes. I found new things out about both of them in the archives later on. But still, I thought to tell this story accurately and also to make it the best story it could be, I wanted to tell it as an ensemble. And so that's what my book tries to do. We've got Lewis, we've got Clark, but we've got a lot of other fascinating and colorful people as well.
- [03:53]
Interviewer
Right. And I'm glad you mentioned that. Like, what did we. What did. What did readers learn from grade school? And all I remember, really, was that there was three people. Louis Clark, Sacagawea. Right. I remember the gold coins with Sacagawea and Pompey and. And that's it. And. And I love how your book does go into everybody else. I found out about York maybe a few years ago, and we can go into a little bit on that later. But why did you feel it was important to tell it in that rotating way instead of, you know, the more 10,000 foot view way?
- [04:33]
Craig Fairman
Yeah. So this idea of it being an ensemble, like that idea made sense to me. And, you know, the title of the book, this Fast Enterprise, that's a line from Clark's letters. So I really believe the captains would have seen it this way if we could Bring Lewis and Clark back in time travel and say, you know, was it mostly about you guys or was it about the team? I think they would say it was about the team. That was what their leadership style was. That's what their letters said. So one reason I wanted to do this is I just thought it was more honest and accurate. And as a historian, my job is to be as accurate as possible. But I also tried to bake this not just in terms of ideas, but into the storytelling itself. So each chapter moves to a different person's point of view. Probably the most popular example, this is actually a novel, Game of Thrones. If anybody's ever read the Game of Thrones novels, they do that like, you know, you'll have a chapter from a king's point of view and then a knight's point of view. Well, for me, it's like it starts with a chapter, chapter from Lewis's point of view, then York's point of view, then Jefferson's point of view. Some different native people. And so I thought that by putting those different points of views in, it was more accurate and more interesting. And it was just a really fun challenge for me as a writer because sometimes I talked about these journals with a million words. There's a lot of details about York in them, for instance. But when I was writing that forced York chapter, he only shows up in the journals a couple times. So I really had to get creative with my sources because, again, my number one goal is to be accurate. And so how could I write about York accurately without as much documentation as we have for Lewis or Clark? But that ended up being one of my favorite parts of the book. And it was just. It was a real joy to give kind of each one of these people their. Their moment in the spotlight because they all learned it. They all worked so hard.
- [06:04]
Interviewer
Right. And how did you choose which person you want to focus on? I mean, I assume some of that dealt with, you know, whatever sources you. You could find or, you know, who was maybe who was the most interesting. How did you pick and choose?
- [06:19]
Craig Fairman
Well, well, I'm always thinking as a storyteller. And so I, you know, I really like this guy named White House, for instance, who is one of the enlisted soldiers. He was a tailor. And so, you know, if I had written chapters from his point of view, I could have gotten really into sort of how they made the clothes and, and, And. And how Sacagawea taught them patterns to make moccasins in the Shoshone style and all that. So that would have Been great. But the problem is that White House's story was very similar to John Ordway's story. And. And I kind of thought John Orway was a better example. John Orway was a working class soldier and a sergeant. So, you know, thinking as a storyteller, I definitely wanted one of the regular soldiers in there because their experience of the expedition was so much different than Lewis and Clark's. They were the ones who were like in the cold water doing the hardest work. Lewis and Clark worked really hard, but they had other jobs they had to do. But then, you know, I didn't need two soldiers because I think that would have been too repetitive. I really wanted this book to move. I wanted it to be a quick read and kind of like a page turner. So a big part of how I chose people like, obviously we're going to have Lewis and Clark. And then it was looking for really interesting people or people that we hadn't heard about before. York is a good example of that. Some of the native leaders. And I think this helped me because, let's be honest, there's been so much written about Lewis and Clark. There are a lot of good books about Lewis and Clark. But because I did this rotating point of view, I could really find new angles. So when Lewis and Clark run into the Lakota on the Missouri river, that's one of the most famous episodes from this period of American history ever. There have been really great books written almost entirely about that encounter. But when I wrote about it, I sort of moved the camera. So I don't talk about it for from Lewis's point of view or York's point of view. I talk about it from the point of view of Black Buffalo, who's a Lakota leader. And I think it makes more sense when you understand both sides. I think it's a better story when you have two sides to it. And so moving the camera around like that, I think just gave me opportunities to sort of make the story feel fresh.
- [08:09]
Interviewer
Did you have a favorite person to write about or to learn about?
- [08:16]
Craig Fairman
Yeah, I really loved all 10 of them. There ended up being 10 different people that I would write from their point of view. Boy, I don't know. It's really hard to choose. My editor at one point said, one of my editors, he was like, if I could sit down to dinner with any of them, I would sit down with York, Ordway and Sacagawea. And I think that would be my answer too. But all 10 of them meant a lot to me in different ways.
- [08:40]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, And I'm glad you did bring in Ordway's perspective. And, you know, I like one of the reasons or one of the stories you had told about how he was kind of more closer to the other troop members. And you kind of hinted at this a little bit when you were saying that Lewis and Clark were, you know, being the captains, they're the leaders, but they're being delegates and diplomats and so in some form. But. But he. Ordway got a chance to actually hear the concerns of the other men in the group. So that's interesting.
- [09:21]
Craig Fairman
There's a moment when they're in the Rockies and when they're kind of running out of food. And honestly, they're not all the way out of food yet, but these men really like to eat, and they really like to eat meat. And, I mean, who can begrudge them, given how hard they worked? But they're not happy with the rations. And so in Ordway's journal, he's like, the men really want to kill a horse and eat one of our horses for the meat. And Ordway's like, I pacified them. And that line doesn't show up in Lewis or Clark's journal. So what that says to me is that some of the men were kind of grumbling, and they were like, forget these rations. We're just going to kill a horse and eat a horse. And Ordway, exactly like you described, is sort of the buffer between the regular soldiers and the officers. And I mean, it's that way in the army today. If you talk to any nco, they have that exact same kind of role. That's why it's a really hard job to be a sergeant, but it's also a really important job.
- [10:06]
Interviewer
And I don't remember if you mentioned this, but Ordway also wrote an entry every day in the journals, Right?
- [10:13]
Craig Fairman
Yeah. He's such a tough guy and such a disciplined guy. And so he was. You know, even Lewis and Clark, there'd be times when they would take time off or they had something come up. Ordway wrote every single day. I think it was 863 entries. And I think that just tells you something about his. His demeanor and his personality. He was just disciplined. He had a job, and he prided himself in doing his job every day. And I just really admire that about him.
- [10:37]
Interviewer
Yeah. So kind of continue with the discussion on the. The military aspect of the. Of the Corps, which, again, that was something else, was new to me. Obviously, I didn't know there was More people than the three, as I said before. But that this was a military operation, and that I thought was really fascinating. I. I got. I was very drawn to the. Your examples of the punishment that some of the men were that were inflicted on some of the men when they, you know, stepped out of line. So can you talk a little bit about that piece of it?
- [11:15]
Craig Fairman
Yeah. Well, the army in this time period was. Was. Was a tough place to be. Most of the soldiers were people like Ordway, people who didn't have any money, didn't have any farmland. And so they kind of had no other options in the army, is what they had. And so you would have. They also got 4 ounces of alcohol every day. Most of them would drink it at breakfast. So you've got men who are tough kind of rascals, a little bit drunk in the middle of nowhere. It's a bad situation. And most of the officers, honestly, weren't much better. I really did a lot of research into John Ordway's first captain before he ended up with Lewis and Clark. And this guy would, you know, somebody from a town would come and say, I think one of your soldiers stole from us. And this captain wouldn't even ask the soldier. He'd just start beating the soldier until the soldier confessed or blamed somebody else. And so that kind of, you know, beat people first, ask questions later. That was how most of the army units worked. And Lewis and Clark definitely took a different approach. They let the men vote on a lot of things. They let the men have input on things. But especially in that first year, once they leave St. Louis, once they're heading up the Missouri river and they can't really turn back, then Lewis and Clark are willing to use some discipline, too. And it's interesting that they would often let the men vote on this, that the men would be sort of the jury. So it's not just Lewis and Clark as officers saying, that guy fell asleep on watch, he deserves 100 lashes. It was the other men who would do that too. And Clark wrote in his journal, they were very willing to punish their peers. And I think that just speaks to the pressure they were under. They knew that falling asleep on watch in a potentially hostile territory where there are lots of other powerful nations, that's a huge mistake. And so I think they really. They realized how dangerous it was and how much they needed to sort of buckle down and, you know, whether it was running the gauntlet or giving men lashes with a cat o nine tails, they used all those kinds. Technologies of discipline that was at their disposal.
- [13:03]
Interviewer
And the level of detail that you go, you give in the book, I. I felt like sometimes I was there when those punishments were happening. I felt like I was there. I could literally see, you know, some of the gore. And so that kind of also, you know, you mentioned the Game of Thrones kind of piece. You know, not to say it all compares to that, but it kind of gave me that same kind of feel in a way.
- [13:27]
Craig Fairman
Yeah, Well, I appreciate you saying that. I did a lot of research on that and sort of read other people's accounts of what did it look like when a man was getting whipped with a cat of nine tails in this time period, because Clark did not put a lot of detail in there. I think Clark kind of had a weak stomach for violence, which is honestly, from our modern perspective. One thing I admire about him, he was not somebody who really enjoyed beating his men or being violent. But I thought it was important to convey that detail because when I tell people about my book, I say, I really want to put you in the canoe. I want you to feel like you're there. And the nice thing is we still have our air conditioned houses and our electricity and all these wonderful modern experiences and comforts. But, you know, if you're going to read a book about the past, I think it's worth remembering what the past was really like. And I tried to capture that in the book. Both the exciting stuff and also the kind of gory stuff.
- [14:16]
Interviewer
Right. Tell us a little bit about York.
- [14:20]
Craig Fairman
Well, this is an example. I said Clark had kind of a weak stomach. And let's be clear, that applied to white people. When it came to his enslaved people, he saw them as property, not people, and he beat them without really a second thought. He was fine to separate black families. He was fine to do whatever he thought he needed and deserved to do as a white owner. And so that's who Clark was. And York was his favorite enslaved person. The term from this time was kind of a body servant that York would sort of follow Clark around and, you know, put out Clark's clothes, pack his saddlebags, cook food for him, just make his life as easy as possible. But when I wrote about York, I really wanted to focus on what York saw and the choices that York made. Because most of the times when people talk about York in the expedition, he's kind of just a footnote. He's kind of like, oh, he grew up next to Clark. They were buddies. And that's. I just don't think the historical record supports that. And I don't think that tells us anything about York. So even the example that York became a body servant, that was a very pressure packed role. You know, he was, you can tell in all these journal ent Clark wrote that Clark is almost jealous of him and almost possessive of him. And it's a very strange and toxic dynamic to us today. But I think it's important to remember that York chose to have this life for himself. He could have done a bad job and Clark would have beat him. But then Clark would have said, go back to Kentucky and just be a farmer like some of the other enslaved people. But York was excellent at his job. That's why Clark wanted to take it with him. That's why York had been to the White House before the expedition even started. York got to see things and do things and wear fine clothing that a lot of enslaved people didn't have. That doesn't mean his life was easy. It actually kind of means the opposite. His life was even harder. But I think he made those choices. And once he got on the expedition, what's so fascinating is you can tell he got to make more choices, he got to excel in more ways. And sometimes Clark didn't like that. But over time, I think the men started to respect York more. And there are points where York is one of the most important people on the expedition. He carried a rifle, he was a great swimmer, which meant he would have been very important when they were going through some of the worst rapids. He was big and strong. He was tough. He was, you know, when he was done with the expedition, there's a letter where Clark talks about York's immense services and Clark's being kind of sarcastic there. But to me, I hear York's voice and I hear that you can see that York was proud of everything he did. The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. @blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure right now. Get up to 45% off with minimum purchase plus get a free professional measure@blinds.com rules and restrictions apply.
- [17:08]
Announcer
Expedia and visit Scotland invite you to come Step into centuries of history that await in stories. Scotland Castles steeped in legend Walk along cobblestone streets Come share the Warmth of stories passed down through generations. This is a place with a past that is fully present today and all yours to explore. Plan your Scottish escape today@expedia.com visitscotland as the crispy chicken sandwich from 7 11. People always call me loud and I'm like, yeah, I know I'm crispy. Did you expect me to whisper? If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect. Look, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold, I'm juicy. Throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me and baby, I'm a whole meal. And with seven rewards, I'm just $4 quiet no crispy, saucy and $4 very only at 7 Eleven Valley, 362326 participating stores only while supplies lastly app for full terms.
- [18:07]
Interviewer
There's a story and I've been trying to find as I've been reading the book and as I finished the book, there was this story that I saw. I don't know if I heard it in a podcast or saw you may have come across it, but there was a young boy in some school in America who they did, I guess, a reenactment of Lewis and Clark and he had volunteered to be York and his mother didn't want him to be York because of, you know, didn't want to be represented as a slave and all of that. And I can't remember what change, but I think the mother did some research on York or whatever and found some of what you're saying about how he grew as a person and had such a huge role in the expedition. And so when she found that out, it was like, oh, this is why my son wants to be this person. So had you heard about that story?
- [19:09]
Craig Fairman
I hadn't. I got to look that up. That's so fascinating, but it's really, you know, you, York's story is so beautiful because of the choices he was able to make, but it's also so heartbreaking because once they get back to America, all those choices, all that autonomy gets stripped away. So in York's story, you can kind of see the excellence and the effort that he put forth and the choices that he made. But you can also see that, you know, in the system of slavery, that would never be enough. That at the end of the day, Clark had power and Clark was willing to use that power to get what he wanted. So the end of York's life is. Is pretty miserable and sad. Even though he gave everything he can, he was there every mile of the way. Just like Lewis and Clark.
- [19:47]
Interviewer
Yeah. One of the interesting reactions, interesting interactions York had is with Native people. And you talk a little bit about that. And you said anytime certain native groups came, they were shocked to see York. Right. So talk to us about what those reactions, interactions were like and how did this change how York was viewed by the natives and then his fellow expedition members.
- [20:17]
Craig Fairman
Sure, I, I love talking about this stuff, but this is also a good example to sort of talk about how my book is different than a lot of other books about Lewis and Clark. So the further they got up to Missouri and, and just for people who, you know, only remember the three people from grade school, which was a lot of people, they start near St. Louis, they go all the way up the Missouri river, they go across the Rocky Mountains, and then they get to the Pacific Ocean, then they turn around and do it all back over again. So it's like an 8, 000 mile journey, almost three years. Well, the further Missouri from St. Louis, a lot of those Native nations had never seen a black person before. And black was a color that was really symbolic and spiritually important to a lot of these Native nations. And so Clark records this in his journals. But there are also Native traditions that capture this too, where Native people would go up to Clark and they would spit on their hand and rub his skin because they would think it was paint and try to take the paint off. And then they'd be like, oh no, this is, this is actually not paint. And that would make him even more impressive. So he was somebody who was. A lot of Native people would tell other traders, this guy's the most impressive part of the expedition. And so other accounts of Lewis and Clark have sort of treated this as well. This must have been a wake up call for York. This must have been York realizing, well, I'm a person, I'm powerful, I'm special, I'm individual. But I just don't think that's true because York never wrote a journal. We don't have York saying, this is what I thought about slavery, but we do have a lot of other people. So I went back and read what Phillis Wheatley wrote about being enslaved, what Jupiter Hammond wrote about being enslaved. Just lots of people from this time period and especially people who lived in Kentucky where York was enslaved for most of his adult life. And they were very clear, you know, they understood in this time period, we as black people are equal. Slavery is unfair. Slavery is something that white people have imposed upon us. So I really don't think that for York, he was like, oh, wow, I guess I Am equal to Clark. I think he probably always saw the world that way. What York realized was that he had more power out here. And you can see that power in the way the other soldiers treated him. Like early in the expedition, some soldiers threw sand at York and almost blinded him. And Clark in his journals is like. It was just in fun, but. But come on, like, York was the only person who almost got blinded. Don't tell me that was just in fun. I don't believe that for a second. So the soldiers were not kind to York early on, but the further you go on, they use his name in the journals. And the first time one of the white soldiers, Ordway, who we mentioned, uses York's name, instead of just calling him Clark's boy, he calls him York. It's after one of these native people sort of comes up and marvels at York. So I don't think the native people caused York to see himself differently, but I do think they caused the other soldiers to see York differently. That's where the wakeup call was. And the other thing is that York was able to use this again to kind of create some space and some choices for himself. You could see different people reacting to this different ways. I'm sure some black people in this time period, somebody starts spitting and rubbing on them would have just been like, screw this. What's going on? But York actually had fun with it. We know from the journals that he would play games. Little native kids would come up for them, and he would pretend to be a bear and scare them, and they would run away, and then everybody would start giggling. It's just a really wonderful human moment. So I think York enjoyed that kind of performance. But there's something really interesting when he talks about it. When he was playing with those kids, he'd be like, I used to be a wild bear until Clark caught me. And so even in the games, you can see that York is very aware of his status as an enslaved person and very aware of what his life is like and the limits on it.
- [23:39]
Interviewer
As you're speaking about this, and you said he didn't have a journal. And it makes me wonder whether or not if someone has ever done, like, a historical fiction novel from his perspective.
- [23:51]
Craig Fairman
There is. There's a really. A really great poet from Kentucky named. I think his name is Frank X. Walker, and he's written two volumes. And there's even some poems from the perspective of York's wife, which are really good, too. So I. I read those. I didn't end up using them in the book because they're completely fictionalized, but just as poetry. I thought they were beautiful. And a really interesting thing to. You know, I have certain limits as a historian. I can speculate, I can theorize. I can carefully kind of explain what I think happened to York. But Walker can go much further than that. And so anybody who's interested in York, and he's an American hero, he's a fascinating guy, I would say. Check out those Walker books for sure.
- [24:29]
Interviewer
Okay. Definitely. Tell us about Sacajawea and her role in the expedition.
- [24:35]
Craig Fairman
Well, she's the third of the trio that we know from school, right. And the school image is that she's this cheerful tour guide that she is. You know, she's like, oh, here's a plant you need, Lewis. Oh, here's the right turn that you need to make up ahead. Clark. And she did do those things. That's. That's not myth. That's truth. But it is only a small picture of her life. And so what I tried to do is kind of capture. Capture the full scope of it. And her life was really sad. You know, as a young girl, she grew up with a Shoshone. I don't think those were sad years. Those were happy years. She loved her people. She loved her family. But when she was 12 or 13, around this place called Three Forks and in what is now Montana, Hidatsa raiders came in. And the Hidatsa had guns. At this time period, they were a nation of Native people. The Shoshone did not. So most of the Shoshone ran off. But Sacagawea couldn't get to a horse in time. So she got captured. And honestly, she got enslaved. And this is not some modern idea being projected back into the past. Clark, in an interview, said that Sacagawea was a slave. So in this time period, Native people could enslave other Native people. But they could also sell enslaved people, especially enslaved Native women, to white fur traders. And that's what's happened to Sacagawea. She ended up being owned by this guy named Charbonneau. And even by the standards of his time, he was just a huge creep. He beat her, he impregnated her. He abused her. And this is all happening when she's 13, 14, 15 years old again, like I said, it's really sad and dark stuff. But then at some point, when she's about 16, Lewis and Clark show up. And so she goes with them. Charbonneau goes with them too. But when, you know, the before to her story, that makes the stuff we learn about in school, I think read differently because when she's a cheerful tour guide or when she's giving plants to Lewis, I think she's sort of making an alliance with Lewis and Clark. She's realizing, if I help these guys, they can help me. And they helped her get back to her people, the Shoshone. That's the most important thing. But even in small ways, like at one point during the expedition, Charbonneau starts to beat her. And Clark steps in and says, we don't do that here. Now, that story tells you a lot about Clark. Clark, the way he treated York was terrible, but the way he stepped in for Sacagawea was great. And I think Clark is a complicated guy in that way. But that story, to me, tells you something about Sacagawea because she created that relationship with the captains where they took care of her.
- [26:48]
Interviewer
Her.
- [26:48]
Craig Fairman
She took care of them. And they were both important players in getting this big expedition all the way to the ocean.
- [26:54]
Interviewer
And she's speaking. Using what's plain sign language. Is that the language?
- [27:00]
Craig Fairman
That's right. She could speak Shoshone. We know that for sure. And she could speak Hidatsa because she lived with the Hidatsa for a few years. It doesn't seem like she could use French or English, although I'm sure she probably used a few phrases. But she had this thing called plain sign language, which we know from a couple places in the journal. And a lot of people could use this. It's, you know, know, sometimes when people think about Lewis and Clark, people like to play up this idea that they sort of played this, like, buckskin version of telephone where, like, one guy tells one person in one language, tells another guy in a language. And that did happen some. But they often use sign language in a way that I think is kind of underrated. And, you know, some of the soldiers, like Ordway, Lewis and Clark, they all learned sign language too. And this was very widely used by traders and especially by Native nations. And they were able to communicate the big ideas quite clearly. And at least at one point, I think Sacagawea told her story and kind of all the hard stuff she had to go through it to Ordway through sign language. One day, while they were all setting
- [27:52]
Interviewer
up camp, one other expedition member. Well, not expedition member, but someone they came in contact with. Biahito. Tell us a little bit about him.
- [28:05]
Craig Fairman
Well, he's such an interesting guy. And I think this is one of the most important parts of my book because at the same Time that Lewis and Clark were heading west, all these native leaders were heading east. But they were all part of the same thing. They were all part of Jefferson's plan. When Jefferson talked to Lewis and when they were planning out this huge expedition in the White House, Jefferson said, when you meet important native leaders, I want you to send them to meet me in Washington, D.C. taxpayers will fund everything like it's a blank check. Just send as many leaders as you can. Because Jefferson believed in diplomacy and he thought this would be much cheaper than fighting wars or getting in, you know, mass of having massive bloodshed on both sides. So Lewis and Clark sent dozens of native leaders east and. And Beo is a great example. His people were based in what's now South Dakota. Lewis and Clark met with them. They spent a couple weeks together. They all liked each other. And so Beo ended up traveling all the way down the Missouri river to St. Louis, then hopping on a horse, traveling all the way to Washington D.C. so we're talking months and months, close to 3,000 miles. He's going the opposite direction that Lewis and Clark are going. But he was an explorer too. And Jefferson, to his credit, realized that. That. So we know that Beo and Jefferson ended up meeting at least twice in the White House. And in my chapter on Beo, I kind of talk about this from his point of view. You know, what would it have been like for a native person to go to Washington D.C. he probably wouldn't have been that impressed because his town was about the same size as Washington D.C. in this time period. But he did get to meet with Jefferson. And I think they would have had a lot in common. They were both older men, very intelligent, they both knew a lot of languages. And one thing that's really cool is it's not me, a different scholar, but somebody recently turned up a map that Bohito made. And so I reproduce this in the. In my book. But it's. It's so cool to see this map and see how he saw the Missouri river versus how Lewis and Clark did. And in my book, I put Biahito's map in the back part of the book and Clark's map from the expedition in the front part of the book. And I kind of think that's like the whole book in miniature. Right. Because to get the full story, you need both maps, you need both perspectives.
- [30:04]
Interviewer
Nice. And there was something I noticed in that chapter, chapter, chapter 14 that I noticed you used. You had different boats to break the sections. So can you. And I'm assuming that may be a replica of his boat he's using, or what is that?
- [30:26]
Craig Fairman
Well, first of all, you are a sharp reader because you're the only person who's brought this up. So this delights me. This is like my Easter egg in my book. In every other chapter in the book, when I. I really wanted to make this a beautiful book, there's like, great color images. There's more than 20 maps. Like, if you're looking for a book to give somebody as a gift, like this is, you will look like a very considerate gift giver because this is a very beautiful object. And all credit for that to my publisher and all the money that they put into it. But, you know, one of the things I did when we were doing the book is like the divisions, you know, I would have my different chapters, but I tried to break the chapters into short sections because, you know, I got kids, I know what life is like. So it's like trying to make it as easy to read as possible. And so in every other chapter, that the breaks between the sections are a little sketch that Clark drew of their boat. But in Biahito's chapter and Bejito's chapter, only, like I said, you're the only person who noticed this. I switched and I used Biahito's drawing of the boat because in that map I was talking about, he sketched Lewis and Clark's boat. So I just thought it would be a cool, kind of small way to honor Biahito, that in his chapter, the little dividers and the sections would still be the same big American barge, but instead of Clark's drawing on of it, it's Beau's drawing of it. And it's just, you know, I thought Biahito was a fascinating guy. And I wanted to. Wanted to put as much of him in his chapter as I could.
- [31:42]
Interviewer
That's really cool. That's cool. And I was wondering, when I saw it, I said, well, he has to have a footnote somewhere to explain.
- [31:49]
Craig Fairman
I don't think I did. I thought I was just like, that's kind of just for me. So I'm glad you asked me so I could explain it. But if you look, if you look in the finished book, in the back at Bejito's map, I think you can see the barge on there. I made sure it was on there. But that's just. I don't know. It's just. You work five years on something, you got to put something in there for yourself. You know, something. Some kind of small, little strange thing. So I'm glad you noticed it though.
- [32:09]
Interviewer
Cool, cool. So I heard you say in an interview that the hardest part about writing this book was to get in the heads of the people you were writing about. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
- [32:21]
Craig Fairman
Yeah, well, I mean, Beauto is a great example because he was an Arikara leader. And so I quickly realized that when I'm writing about this book, you know, there are certain things that are going to come up in everybody's chapter. Chapter. It might be land, it might be the river, it might be trade, it might be race, it might be gender. Like there might weapons and war. Like there are certain things that are going to come up again and again in this time period. But I couldn't really just write about them from one perspective and I definitely couldn't write about them from the 2026 perspective. So with each of these 10 people I wrote about, I almost kind of like had to write a. Like learn enough to be able to write a biography of each one of them. So it's really clear to me that be a Hito being an Arikara person and another person I write about in the book named Black Buffalo, he's a Lakota leader. They only lived a few hundred miles apart, but they saw the world in really different ways. So I had to read a lot of books about the Lakota experience and interview Lakota people and really try to understand that. But then when it came time to do the Bihito chapter, there would be a few similarities, but mostly it was just a totally new thing. So with each person, I mean, even Ordway and Lewis and Clark. Lewis and Clark were wealthy officers who had grown up in Virginia. Clark even went to college. So they were like the real elite dates of their time period. John Orway was a working class guy whose father lost his farm, he had nothing. And so they saw the world very differently. And for each person that I wrote about, I really tried to have. I really tried to show how did they see the world? And that took a long time to be able to understand that for each person. But I do think that's one of the things that's unique and special about the book is you don't have to really talk about, you know, how should we feel about these issues today? I think it's enough to just say like, this is how York saw his life. This is how Clark saw York work. And then readers are smart, they can figure that stuff out for themselves. So I, I don't think it's really a book where I moralize too much or anything like that. I just kind of tried to relay the truth, the facts of this time period, trusting that readers would. Would have their own reactions. And that's, you know, as a reader, that's what I love in a book. A book that trusts me to just sort of figure this out and. And figure out how to feel for myself.
- [34:20]
Interviewer
Right, Right.
- [34:22]
Craig Fairman
It's springtime, which means that Princeton University Press is having its annual 50% off spring sale. From May 4 through June 9. You can get 50% off nearly every single print, ebook and audiobook from Princeton University Press. Just go to press princeton.edu to get 50% off incredible books like Disneyland and the Rise of Automation and Beyond Belief, How Evidence Shows what really Works. There are so many fantastic books, books you can get an incredible deal on. Go to press princeton.edu and use the code spring50. That's S P R I N G50 press princeton.edu. the sale only lasts for a month, so go and get some books.
- [35:12]
Interviewer
You mentioned over a hundred interviews and many of those you said with n N folks from native nations and so forth. Can you talk a little bit about that and what that experience was like? What did you learn from all of those individuals?
- [35:31]
Craig Fairman
Well, it was different for every nation, so I'll just. I think probably the best way to convey it is talk about one. Chapter 13 is from the perspective of a guy named Koboe who is part of the Clatsup people. And again, this, as a storyteller, this really helped me because, you know, when Lewis and Clark spend that winter on the Pacific Ocean and it's pretty boring, they don't want to be there. It rains almost every day. It's kind of miserable. But I was able to move the camera and talk about that winter from. From Coboy's point of view, which I think just makes it a fresher and more interesting story. You know, at this point in the book, we've seen Lewis and Clark do the winter quarters thing, like three times. So I. I think readers will be like, all right, let's. Let's get a different perspective on this. Like, how many times do we need to see these guys build chimneys? So that was fun for me as a writer, but to be able to write from Coboy's point of view. I knew I had a lot to learn as a white guy living in Indiana. So I interviewed people at the. At the Chinook Indian Nation. And so today they're the Clats up and the Chinook and a few other different nations have kind of joined together. And one of the people I spoke to was actually a descendant of Cowboy. And they didn't necessarily say, you know, we have oral traditions of this thing. Coboy did one summer. I found examples of that. But it would normally be like, you know, a settler interviewing Coboy's daughter later on. So it was very much, you know, just like only a couple decades after he was alive, like a family member memory. But what the clats up and the Chinook people I interviewed today did was they just helped me kind of understand the values, I think, and the worldview. And so there were different things where, you know, canoes is a really good example. Canoes were so important to the. To the clats up people. They weren't just modes of transportation, although they were. And they had these beautiful canoes that begin. And again, in their journals, the Americans were like, we've never seen canoes like this. We don't even know how they make it. This is. This is absolutely the best water going technology we've ever seen. But it was more than that. When I was interviewing the clats of people, they talked about the spiritual value of canoes and how much canoes matter to the communities. And one of the women I was interviewing, named Rachel, she was like, to us, a canoe has a heart. And I was like, that's. I'm never going to write a line better than that. So I just put her words in there. So in the chapter, I talk about canoes and I say, canoes have a heart. And that's an idea that as an outsider, I don't think I would have been able to articulate that or even maybe to think that that. But the interviews really helped me grasp that kind of stuff and understand that kind of stuff and get that sort of. That texture and that worldview. And so when I combined that with the details from Lewis and Clark's journals and the details from Kobo's daughters and grandson who had like done interviews in the 19th century. And then this sort of these. These interviews, I got to do all that together. I think that that's why it took so long. That's why it's a lot of work to get in each person's head. But I think that's hopefully what made those chapters feel real. And the native people would read the chapters for me too. I didn't always agree with them, but mostly I did. And many times they saved me from making really stupid mistakes, which I appreciate.
- [38:21]
Interviewer
Great. Talk a little bit about the mental and physical toll the expedition had on the people involved, especially the toll it took on Lewis.
- [38:34]
Craig Fairman
Yeah, well, it was so hard for all of them. It was just, you know, especially in the second half. It wasn't just that they did hard things. They would do a hard thing and then another hard thing and then another hard thing. So they, you know, they're. They're towing their boats in the Missouri against the current, and the water is blowing or is running so hard that, you know, they'll lose the grip on a canoe. It'll slam into one of them and throw them into a rock, and they'll hurt their back for days. So that's happening. Then they realize there's these giant waterfalls. We got to go around these waterfalls. So they have to portage their boats and go 20 miles just dragging their boat on these rickety wagons across dry land. Then they get to the Rocky Mountains, and we. We know what the Rocky Mountains are like today. They didn't know. They were kind of the people that from the. The white perspective first shared and articulated that this isn't just a range of mountains. This is a whole region of mountains. So then they get with that, and then they have these horrible rapids, and then they get down to the ocean and it's raining. And so you're talking about just month after month of new challenges that just. Just would grind them down. And it impacted all of them. But I think it probably impacted Lewis the most. And the reason I know this is one of the new cool things I found while working on this book. When Lewis eventually makes it back to Washington, D.C. he gets to meet Jefferson. He's an American hero. All the newspapers are talking about him, and everybody wants a piece of Meriwether Lewis. Well, one of the people who wanted to meet him was John Quincy Adams. Very smart and observant guy. And John Quincy Adams has dinner with Lewis. And they had done this before the expedition, just a couple years ago ago, a couple years before. And yet when John Quincy Adams sits down to dinner with Lewis, Quincy Adams later writes, and these are new letters that I found. Quincy Adams says, I didn't even recognize this guy. He looks like he's 15 years older. And so when I lay out all the stuff they had to do, the portage, the mountains, the rain, the rapids, like it makes sense. But I really think that it broke something in Lewis, not just physically, but mentally, because John Quincy Adams is such a good writer, he would say, it's not just that Lewis was physically depleted, he was mentally depleted, too. And Lewis ended up killing himself just a couple years later, which is a shocking tragedy. Shocking is probably the wrong word. It's shocking to us today. But it didn't surprise Jefferson or Clark because they knew what Lewis had been through, too. But the expedition was so important, and they did it. They made it back. But a part of Lewis, I think, never did quite make it back. It really took something out of him. And his years after the expedition were very troubled.
- [41:02]
Interviewer
And you mentioned that part specifically about Lewis's end in the epilogue. And I loved how you wrote it because it gave me the ending of the movie vibes when you have those. Well, this is what happened to everybody after this big event happened. And I love how you use the example of Clark writing the. You know, that's. That's your motto. The letter, the. The list of names that Clark's doing. So did you always know you were gonna. That's how you wanted to end the book? Or how did that. How did that. That process come about?
- [41:47]
Craig Fairman
Yeah, I don't. I mean, Clark wrote this journal or he had a. He had a. Like, a notebook that he would just, like, basically do, like, tax paperwork and budgeting and things like that and some point in the 1820s on the COVID of the notebook book. And I reproduced this image in the book, too, which I think is really cool. He just made this list of people on the Lewis and Clark expedition. And it's a bleak list. We're only talking maybe two decades after they get back and so many of the people on it are dead. And so Clark just sits down and he writes, louis dead. Ordway dead. Sacagawea dead. And I'm not sure when the idea came to me.
- [42:25]
Interviewer
Me.
- [42:25]
Craig Fairman
But it just. It just seemed like a way to give you exactly that movie feel that you were talking about, but also sort of put it in Clark's point of view. Because I think, like, it's always satisfying after a big adventure story to kind of know what. What. Where did everybody end up? How did their lives turn out? In this case, pretty bleak. A lot of them. A lot of them did not end up with great lives. But then I also was like, well, let's put this in Clark's point of view. Because that list, historians tend to treat things like that, like, well, here's a set of data. Data here. Here is one person recording, you know, different people's lives and when they died. And. And this list is very important, for instance, in debates about whether Sacagawea died in this time period or whether she lived a long life. I don't really have a position on that debate, but I can See why the list is important, just like, as a set of facts. But to me, that list is also evidence of a human mind at work. Right. Because Clark didn't say, like, I gotta record this for future historians. Clark was just sitting there one day and was like, I wanna reminisce about the craziest thing that ever happened to me. And so it was, you know, there's only. People say, there's only two chapters about Clark, but for me, the epilogue is kind of a stealthy Clark chapter. Right. Because he's the one who's sitting there and thinking about these people. And I tried to just kind of put people in his perspective to make it feel human. And then you. You know, you can feel the heartbreak when he writes Lewis dead. But you can also see the really ugly side of him in that he doesn't even put York on that list. Which York was absolutely one of the men on the expedition. But his relationship with Clark got so angry when they got back when York still said, you know, I should be freed. I did this stuff. I've earned my freedom. And Clark was like, no, you haven't. You're still my enslaved person. So I think that list was. It was a way. I just wanted this book to be about human beings, I think. And it was kind of one last way to sort of keep the human beings front and center.
- [44:09]
Interviewer
And since we have hit the point about film, I feel like this could be adapted to a movie. Miniseries, probably. It might even be better to be a miniseries just because of the. The. The rotating characters. Any aspirations for that, or.
- [44:27]
Craig Fairman
I. I personally don't have a lot of aspirations because I don't know how to make a good TV show. But I would love to see somebody else buy the rights to this and make this a good TV show. So. Fingers crossed. But it's, you know, I. I think it's the best adventure story in American history. And it's just. It's got a real engine to it. It's a road trip. There's all these. These action moments. And I just think the roles would be so good. Like. Like, who we. Who are we going to cast as York? That. That's going to be one of the great roles of that year. Like, that's such a fascinating and complicated role. Who are we going to cast as Louis? Who are we going to cast as Sacagawea? It would be amazing. So I, unfortunately, don't have the power to make this happen. But there are talks that are happening and my fingers are crossed and, you know, let's let's. Let's get it done. It would be a. It would be. It would be appointment television, I think.
- [45:09]
Interviewer
Yeah. And are there outside of Lewis and Clark that in Secretary, where we have like actual images or paintings are most of the, I guess more lesser known people. Do we have. Do you know, do we have a lot of images of those folks?
- [45:25]
Craig Fairman
No, we don't. There's one thing that I found while I was doing my research by a very famous painter, but it had not really been reproduced before. But he painted a guy named Wolfcalf who was a Blackfoot person. And so he painted him a couple decades later in my book when he shows up to meet Lewis. He's a teenager. This is a painting of him in his 30s. But I was still really excited to find that and put that in the book because I wanted to be like, you know, Lewis and Clark aren't the only people we have paintings of. But we do not have, you know, there's a really great statue of York in Louisville, for instance. But that's just that artist's best guess of what York might have looked like. So we don't really. We don't know what John Ordway looked like. I found a picture of his brother, but I never could find a picture of him, which is just how it goes with this time period. So for most of the people, we don't really have a strong images. But. But I mean, think of the landscapes. We. We know to some extent how beautiful those landscapes were. And so to get. To get somebody who's a really good director to kind of capture that, I mean, that's. It would be so beautiful. The nature alone would be the star of the show.
- [46:19]
Interviewer
Show, yeah. Yeah. You have two appendices in the back of the book. And I encourage anybody. You have to read them, do not skip them at all. One of the appendices, you have a great discussion about the pros and cons of written and oral history. And there was a quote that I just been. I've been sitting with it for a couple of days where you talk about history as being, you know, form of interpretation and how when people hearken back to a certain time, that is also based off of your view of what that better time was. Is it based off of interpretation? So can you talk a little bit about that? And then maybe if you want to mention anything about the oral history, written history.com of me.
- [47:15]
Craig Fairman
Yeah, well, you know, my kids are in elementary school, though. They're probably learning about Lewis and Clark and Zach and Julia Too. They haven't told me about it, but they're kind of tired of Lewis and Clark. I don't blame them. Lewis and Clark have come up a lot around the dinner table the last five years. But. But my kids, they have to show their work, right? Like. Like their teachers. Like, you don't just have to answer the problem, you have to show how you answer the problem. And I honestly think historians, we should show our work too. So that appendix is an example of me doing it there. There is some material in there about oral history versus written history because I think somet hear oral history and they just immediately get skeptical. But there is. There's really good research that shows that oral history is often quite useful and quite accurate. And for me at least, it never really felt like an opposition. It wasn't like there are two sides. They neither one agree. You have to pick one. It's more like it was a conversation where something from oral history would cause me to read the journals differently or something from the journals would cause me to learn something new about Native people. And. But, you know, I mentioned wolf calf. Probably the biggest thing I found in this book. Book was an interview from Wolfcaf where he talked about his version of this really bloody encounter between Lewis and the Blackfeet. And at least one Blackfoot person died in this. It's a very famous moment in the expedition. But we've only ever had Lewis's side of it in the journals. And so what I did in this appendix is at the very end of the appendix, I just printed Wolfcalf's interview because that's a big archival find. I hope other historians use that. But I also printed Lewis's journal entry, so just kind of like side by side. Because I think readers, you know, know I explain this is how I found this thing, and this is why I think this thing changes how we should understand this encounter between the Americans and the Blackfoot. But then I just reprint the primary text. And I hope readers, after they've read the book, I hope they do their own interpreting. I hope they get back in there and kind of check my work and do their own work. It's fun. You know, finding history is often kind of like detective work. And so I sort of, kind of try to say this is how I do my detective work. But I also think, especially right now, now when people in our country are so skeptical, myself included, and when even something like Lewis and Clark feels like it has two sides, I just thought it was important for me to say this is how I do My work. This is why it takes five years. I can't walk you through everything in the book. If I sat down with a reader, they could point to any sentence in the book and I could say, this is why I know that's true. But I can't do that for every reader. So the appendix is just a chance for me to say, this is why I trust oral history. These are the reservations I have about it. These are the reservations I have about written history because it's not like we, we can, it's not like the journals are always completely accurate or true either. And then this is me showing my work. This is how I was able to kind of gather this information and then form an interpretation. I, I hope more historians do this kind of thing because I think it's a way for us to kind of earn back some of the public's trust.
- [50:00]
Announcer
Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors, and learn about our associate degree in nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit Carrington. Edu Sci.
- [50:31]
Interviewer
And one of the things that I like about what you do in the appendices and even in the notes section is kind of you, you make the, you make an argument too, where it's like, as you just said, this is my work. I want you to see what I did. But you're also in a way, setting up the next person who writes about Lewis and Clark 20, 30 years down the road in some form, some, some form or fashion. And so I, I, I respect that a lot. And especially with the second appendices where you, you, you talk about, here are some theories about the sex and during the expeditions and you know, who might be the father of these children, that, that type of thing. And you say, hey, we need more DNA infrastructure. You know, someone needs to kind of take that and, and run with that. So I love how I guess you and I know you know this, this part but like, like how you place yourself in the literature, so to speak, and you know, and you're just waiting for the next person to, yeah, take
- [51:40]
Craig Fairman
the, I'm ready to hand off the baton. This is five years, me doing the most I could, but there's, there's still more to do. And so it's exciting for me to do that, and I also, I, you know, there's a lot of this stuff in the appendix and the notes. But I, I, I know that a lot of people will read this book and not care about that stuff. And that's okay too. Like, I wanted the main part of the book to just be a page turner. This was my, this was my attempt to write like the David McCullough book. Like, like, just like you feel like you' stop turning the pages. You love these people. But then in the appendices and in the endnotes, that's still me kind of doing my more scholarly mode, which I, I learned to do in grad school. And I, I've always thought those two things work together. Just like oral history and written history can kind of illuminate each other. Like sometimes the best details I have to make the people come alive come from me doing like that crazy archival research. So in this book, you know, you can read it just for the page turning part. You know, you got 400 good pages of that and I think you'll get your money worth. But I do think regular readers are smart and often curious. And so I included that stuff in the back, not just for the other scholars I could pass that baton off to, but just for anybody who gets the Lewis and Clark book because it's such a fascinating topic. So I hope lots of people leave my book with a really satisfied feeling, but also with questions because there are still questions to answer. That's why history is so much fun, right?
- [52:55]
Interviewer
Exactly. So before we wrap up, I have couple few questions that close us out. So this is the New Books Network. So one question I have for you is what are some new books that you have read or are looking forward to reading that you believe our audience might be interested or will enjoy?
- [53:20]
Craig Fairman
So this is, I read a lot of novels. A lot of what I read, especially when I'm writing a book, will be novels to kind of like stoke my imagination and my writing and my prose and hopefully try to make it as elegant as possible. And then these like really dense scholarly books. So I won't recommend any dense scholarly books to people. Although, you know, if you look in the endnotes, you could see the scholarly books I really admire. But I like a novel I read last year that just absolutely knocked my socks off was called Seascraper. So this is by a guy who is, I can't remember if he's British or Scottish, but he's, you know, he's, he's from, from the UK and it's novel about this Guy who just. He basically is like a shrimp farmer. Like, it's one of those novels set in a time where it's sort of like things are changing, which. Which was kind of true for Lewis and Clark, too, because the steamboat was only. They didn't really know this, but in a few years, the steamboat would happen and would really change transportation on all the rivers that they had dealt with. But for this guy, you know, he still has a horse in a wagon, and he's still trying to kind of gather shrimp. And he has a life that's not that different from what somebody would have lived a hundred years ago, except he lives in a time of cars and change and all that. And it's just a beautiful book. It's a short book. I often find myself really loving shorter novels, but mostly I just love the characters. I just love the human beings. And so this guy, his mother, this crazy movie director he ends up meeting. I don't want to spoil it because I found it a real page turner, like a really propulsive, too, but just a novel that really just knocked my socks off was called Seascraper. And I would highly recommend that to anything, anybody.
- [54:59]
Interviewer
Okay, great. Before we wrap up, you have any last thoughts or parting words for the audience?
- [55:07]
Craig Fairman
No, I just. I. First of all, I want to give a shout out to you for noticing the different changing in the boats, because like I said, you're you. I've done a lot of interviews about this book, which I'm very lucky and grateful to have done. And you're the first person to notice it. So no surprise to anybody who knows you. But you are a sharp reader. But also, I guess I just hope that, you know, I think this is a book for everybody. If you're somebody who loves this period of American history, if you're just like, I don't. I know so much about Thomas Jefferson, there's nothing new for me to learn. You're going to learn some new things about Thomas Jefferson in this book. But this is also a book if you just love big stories. If you watch the news coverage of Artemis 2, and you were just like, it's so cool that human beings can do stuff like this. Like, this book is kind of in that same spirit. If you liked Project Hail Mary, this book is in that spirit. So I really tried to write a book that was. Was ambitious and optimistic and just most of all, very human and very emotional. So if you like those kinds of books, if you're looking for a reading experience that will kind of take you to a Different place. I really tried to make this book that. And I think you might. Might really enjoy it. Yeah, yeah.
- [56:08]
Interviewer
And I. And I would like to add, too, we didn't talk about this a little earlier, but you even. You inject a lot of humor in it every now and then as well. So.
- [56:17]
Craig Fairman
Well, well, I mean, these people were funny. Like, Lewis was a really funny guy. Sacagawea, I think, was a very funny woman. York was very funny. I mean, him playing with those native kids like we were talking about. And so, you know, there's some really dark stuff that happens on this expedition. It is a hard, hard thing. But the way they got through it was laughing. And so I felt like it would have been dishonest if I didn't try to make my book funny, too. That's kind of the way I get through dark stuff. Anyway, I think it's important to joke when things are tough. And so I'm glad you noticed that because, you know, if Lewis and Clark and Sacagawea and York could make jokes during this, then I think it's only fair that we in a book about it can sort of laugh, too, because that's the human experience. Right. We're doing hard things, but we're laughing and loving and trying the best.
- [57:00]
Interviewer
Absolutely. So you all have been listening again to the New Books Network podcast. I have been in conversation with Craig Fairman, author of this Vast Enterprise. Make sure you get your book, book at any local independent bookstore or from your local library, and I promise you, when you read this, you will be. It's a riveting tale. Adventure. Fool, as we said, has some humor in it, but it's very. You'll learn a lot, especially if you're like me, who did not know much about Lewis and Clark prior. You will learn a lot more than you did before. So thank you again, Craig, for joining us on the podcast.
- [57:46]
Craig Fairman
Man, this has been so much fun. Thanks for your questions.
- [57:49]
Announcer
Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network.
- [57:52]
Craig Fairman
We are an academic podcast network with the mission of public education.
- [57:56]
Announcer
If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can browse all of our episodes on our website, newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us on Instagram and Blue sky with the Handle Ebooks Network, and subscribe to our weekly substack newsletter@newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.