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Dag Nikolaus Hasse, "What Is European? On Overcoming Colonial and Romantic Modes of Thought" (Amsterdam UP, 2025)
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Marshall Poe
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
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Marshall Poe
Learn more@WhatsApp.com hello everybody, this is Marshall Poe. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network and if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of New Books Network. This is your host, Moteza Hajizadeh from Critical Theory Channel. Today I'm honored to be speaking with Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse about a recent book that has published with Amsterdam University Press. The book is called what is On Overcoming Colonial and Romantic modes of thought. Dr. Dag Nicholas Harsey is professor of the History of Philosophy at the University of Wurzburg in Germany. Dag, welcome to New Books Network.
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Well, I'm glad to be with you here.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Thank you. This is a very, very, I guess, timely topic to talk about what is European or what is Europe? I guess with the rise of ripening politics or nationalists around the world, in Europe, in America, other parts of the world, this question of what is Europe or Europe is changing is very topical and a lot of people are talking about even conspiracy theories, the great replacement and things like that. But the idea of Europe and European is always central. So I think this is a very timely topic. Before we start to talk about the book, can you first very briefly introduce yourself and then tell us why did you decide to write a book about what is European?
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
I'm a historian of philosophy and science and mainly of West Asia, North Africa and Europe in ancient and medieval times.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
And.
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
I treat this area basically as one big area where the Mediterranean is not really a divide, but like a highway, not only for ships but also for ideas. And when I realized that in the discourse, the political discourse today, people speak of Europe in a cultural way, of course, they speak also of Europe as a political entity or the idea of a political Europe that originated in the 17th century, but also culturally as a unit, as having an essence. For instance, they defend a so called Christian Europe against elements they find foreign, or they ask immigrants to a European country to catch up on the Enlightenment and on the division of state and religion or something like this. And as a historian, I realized this doesn't fit with my concepts of Europe and I started to systematically work on it. And I also realized in talking to colleagues that they said, well, Doug, reading your stuff, it, it, you, you really do say something about a different concept of Europe. And I, I hadn't realized so much and I then started to do systematic research also on the history of the concept of Europe.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
This is, I think, you, you, you, you, you, you made a good point that people talk about Europe sometimes, not that they don't know what Europe is, but they have it. They sometimes talk about a culture, Europe, a geographical religion, and these are all the things we want to talk about. I'm really interested in the, I think One thing that captured my mind is that the title, sorry, the secondary title of the book, which is On Overcoming Colonial and Romantic Modes of thought. You propose this. Let's say a. More a decolonized and at the same time a de. Romanticized concept of Europe. What do you mean by that? We'll get to in more details. But if we could very briefly tell us what are these colonial and romantic modes and what is that mode democratized or de. Romanticized. Sorry, decolonized and de. Romanticized concept that you're proposing?
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Yeah, it means something precise in this book and it doesn't yet try to mobilize certain jargon, but it means that two cultural concepts are very influential in our talk about a culture of Europe. And they come from a colonial and a romantic period. So basically a period around 1700 and 1800. And I try to suggest in the book that it be sensible to. It makes sense to. To stop using these two cultural concepts and return to a more sober geographical concept when talking about Europe. And so that's why it says overcoming Romantic and colonial modes of thought, because these are historical trends that are still with us. And basically the one concept is that Europe is a continent of reason, or of the idea, the spirit of freedom, an Enlightenment idea, but also of colonial times. And then in the romantic period, around 1800, that Europe is essentially a fusion of Greek thought and Christian religion. And both these ideas are. I mean, there are other cultural ideas of Europe, but both these ideas are very, very fluent, very prominent still in our discourse today. And I think they are problematic. And I try to make aware of the problems coming along with them. Yeah, that's giving. Yeah, sorry, go ahead. And trying to offer argument. Trying to offer historical and geographical arguments, not just making people feel strange or bad about it, but as a scholar try to give arguments why it would be sensible to talk differently.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
I'm not European myself. I'm originally from Iran. When I was in Iran, I started studying English literature. I've always loved, you know, novels. When I was a kid, I read lots of novels, mostly European novels, Jules Rennes, all those stories. And then I did English literature in university, did my master's English Literature. And then I moved to New Zealand to do my Ph in English Literature. And I've always loved the idea of, you know, the Western literature and culture. And I also come from that Eastern background. I do. I mean, I knew my background as well, my history and my culture. I. Because as a student of literature in English, you need to read a lot of critical theory and you come to read post colonial theory as well. So there was a time, and I still have great respect for Edwards said on postcolonial theory, that the whole area that this started, but not so much for the later followers of postcolonial theory, let's say. And when I talk with some of my friends, I always try to be that guy in the center. I do say, I do understand that. I've read the history of Europe. I do understand there are a lot of dark things at the same time, there are a lot of wonderful things as well. And you can't. And I do get the point that you're making. I guess there are people nowadays in the world who are looking at Europe only through that romanticized lens. And at the same time there are others who only look at it through that colonial lens. And both these stories are based on exclusions. They exclude parts of history, they exclude parts of that European tradition. Can you just very briefly maybe tell us what are some of those persistent myths or exclusions that you believe we need to address, especially when we are.
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Trying to.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Let'S say, reconsider these two polar modes of looking at Europe?
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Well, if you open books on the history of Europe in school books, you get the Acropolis as the first image, or perhaps the, or the Bastille, the French Revolution, pictures of the French Revolution. And of course they're important parts of cultural traditions in Europe on the continent. But that's a very strong midwestern European sound that dominates and excludes and supported by these two colonial and romantic modes of thought, and that excludes other traditions, for instance, Muslim traditions on the continent, but also many Eastern European orthodox traditions, Scandinavia or in the west, or big cities like Cordoba and Constantinople, we will talk later about, I guess. So these are things where you, these are features, practices of European culture on the soil of the continent that people can attach to and feel at home at. But when you listen to, like Benedict xvi, right wing intellectual, you could say, or Emmanuel Macron, you get very narrow images of what the culture of Europe is. And this is very exclusionary. But when you mentioned looking at Europe from someone who loves English literature, as an Iranian, I think one of the strengths of Atwood Said's approach, especially in the later years, is that he would say, well, look at what the problems or the damages identities have done. And this is basically human heritage. So looking at it from a humanistic point of view is the only way it makes sense to me. And in that sense, the book is also postcolonial, my book. And that you look at European culture as something that is everybody can feel at home also. It doesn't matter where you live. You don't need to be born somewhere to be a lover and expert on Beethoven. You don't need to be born and born. Yeah, it doesn't. It is. It is. It's done by humans, made for humans, and it's there to feel at home for, for everybody. But of course, when you, when you then talk about Europe, what happened on European soil, it's good to be historically and geographically precise and don't concentrate on what you feel at home at. Like you like Emmanuel Macron or Benedict xvi. They feel at home in very specific areas of European traditions, but try to declare these where they feel at home to be the essence of Europe. And that's a big problem. I think.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
There are a lot of good points here that we will unpack them as we go ahead. One thing I really, really interested to know about is when you talk about that emotional attachment to Europe, I think it's in the introduction of the book that you say that emotional attachment to Europe is, is weak among Europeans, despite all the association that Europe has with ideas of, you know, Enlightenment, secularism, humanism, democracy, rule of law. But why do you think Europeans. It might be a little bit surprising given in the context of more recent contexts where a lot of people are nationalists, I'm talking about nationalists and some right wingers, even right, who are trying to appropriate that idea of Europe and instill the love of European people without criticizing. They're trying to completely. And as you mentioned, they focus on one area of Europe only. So they do tend to purge or forget or not talk about the colonial history of Europe. But do you think that that emotional attachment to Europe is. Why do you think it's weak?
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
I don't think it's weak. I think that people say it's weak and then start to try to raise more enthusiasm, especially for the European Union, by trying to rally people behind the cultural concept of Europe, saying, well, don't you realize you are European when you look at Mona Lisa or a Greek temple, or Reed, Proust and Mosel and so on? And then they don't realize, well, this is a very elitist, very narrow concept of what the culture of Europe is about. And so I, I think, in fact, if they are complaints, but if you talk to young people in Europe, I don't think there's, there's. The emotional attachment is lacking. It's, it's more, perhaps there's less emotional attachment to this very narrow kind of Elitist vision of what Europe is about. But I don't think there's. And that's why I think it has taking a troubling turn. These searches for the idea of Europe or the essence of Europe is very essentialist and it's doing some harm, I think.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
And the whole thing is also very new, am I right? I mean, like 300 years ago, that idea of being European Europe didn't exist in the same way that it does now. Or even the west in general. They're all more or less modern concepts, right?
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Yes, yes. It's quite surprising of the fact that when we looking at this discourse, the medieval traditions are not so much a problem. Whereas in other cases, if you talk about antisemitism or other prejudices, you would have medieval traditions or theocratic ideas and so on. But I say that as a medieval historian. But here, if you look at the medieval sources, I mean, medieval Latin sources, you would perhaps expect that people had said, we as Europeans go on a crusade against these people in Asia and free Jerusalem. But they don't say this. So it's very, very rare. So European or Europe is not a. A phrase of. That defines where you come from or where you use it as a collective term for. We would rather say we Latin merchants or Marco Polo would say that. Yeah. So it's very rare. And talking about Europe as a home country is really developing only in the 17th century. And then also Europe was also always in the Middle Ages, the continent that was second best. Asia was the continent where you had the earthly paradise, Jerusalem. And when in the Bible it is said that Noah's sons divided the earth and Shem got Asia and Japheth got the cold Europe and Ham the two hot Africa. So that these were the three continents they talk about. So there's no question Europe was second best. And that changed in the early modern period. And then we got to get a lot of problems coming along with that idea of dominance and being the best continent.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Hmm. I'm an enthusiast. I'm not a expert or a professional, but I'm an enthusiast in medieval history. And it's usually pop medieval history. And I do follow this magazine, the Medievalist, and they have a weblog as well. One thing that was really interesting was that they. And it's quite publicly accessible for the public. It's not written for the experts. There was a web blog entry about the 10 most important cities of the Middle Ages. And again, that idea of Middle Ages, which is usually associated with Europe, but I guess more, more recent scholarship is Talking about universal Middle Ages. They're talking about what's, well, happening in the Islamic world in Africa and Asia and Europe as well. And they were listing the 10 most important cities in the Middle Ages. And I must say I had that stereotype in my mind as well. So I was expecting to see 10 European cities, but when I read them, and some of them I didn't even know because they were. Yeah, a city that was prosperous in the Middle Ages somewhere in Africa. And I was one Iranian city. Isfahan was also mentioned there. I thought, okay, that makes sense. I've been to Isfahan. There are mosques, there are 15th century churches there because it was a cosmopolitan city back in the 15th century during Safavid period. So what I'm saying is that there were, I guess, three or four cities out of ten. The vast majority of the cities were outside Europe. And that was like, okay, yes. And it kind of echoes what you just mentioned, that there were other contents there as well.
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
There. Well, but of course you can then ask, why would you then use the term medieval or Middle Ages, which is a strange term anyway, because it was coined by the humanists as the period in the Renaissance was saying, well, this period is really intermediary period because then we come and it's getting back to the glory of Greek and Roman culture. But yes, if you look at the important intellectual and cultural and political centers, your look turns away from the rather small cities like Rome and Paris and goes to the more the greatest cities like Cordoba and Constantinople and then on other continents, Baghdad and Isfahan. Yeah, I mean, I love Avicenna Ibn Sina. I've worked on this intellectual and philosopher and physician a lot. And he lived for a long part of his life in Isfaad. So that was a great center of culture. Yeah, but yeah, in Arabic studies there are no Middle Ages really. There's a classical period or in Islamic studies. And if we. I wouldn't. I mean, I love medieval Latin culture and the culture of midwestern European castles and romance stories and the epics and the knights and everything and the monks. But it's only a certain part of European history and also of that time. There's also a pagan history in the Middle Ages. There's also a Muslim history, a Jewish history. And Eastern Europe is very different. And the big cities are Cordoba and Constantinople. So non Latin Christian cities. And that's. And that's. But, but the field is changing lots. People are really realizing this, but that hasn't yet transported into our school books or how people think of them.
- [22:46]
Moteza Hajizadeh
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Moteza Hajizadeh
And I think this is still very much still a kind of an academic area. They have started changing, let's say the trend. But you're absolutely right that it hasn't really still traveled into the public arena or the schools. Let me ask you another about the idea of enlightenment. Enlightenment ideals, which again, I mean we can't deny the fact that it is a European phenomena, but because you argue that at the same time it was also universal phenomena. There was a Buddhist, India confusing China, democratic societies and African societies. So there was this idea of enlightenment more or less different parts of the world. Can you talk about that? Why briefly explain why you think there was this unit? It was a universal phenomena. And what are the risks, let's say, of continuing to frame this as exclusively European in today's world global discourse?
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Yeah. So when people talk about the Enlightenment, they speak of the late 17th and the 18th century, about philosophers like Locke and Kant and Montesquieu and Voltaire and that's what we are talking about then and about the French Revolution and also the American Revolution slightly before that. And yes, this is a very particular phenomenon and it's very. With lots of impact. But to say that basically Europe is the continent of reason and of critical thinking of these. Yeah. As Kant would say, so be audacious enough to think yourself and to criticize authorities. I would say if you define it in that very limited way, then you find critical thinking all over the place. Basically from the beginning of written records we have people that criticize religious authorities or even political authorities and very different cultures. So in that very specific sense, it's the engine of change in very many cultures, because people say, is it true what this priest says? And are there really gods? Do all people in our community have the same rights and access to things, to resources? That's not a European invention, and it would be very arrogant to claim that, but it is claimed. And also to separate state and religion. You can say, on the one hand, it's a very Midwestern European problem because the church was so powerful also as a secular ruler. That's very rare for religious authorities outside Midwestern Europe. I guess the danger is that people then say, well, let's export this critical thinking to other countries, to other continents, or let people who come to us, let them first learn how to separate state and religion. And that's very strange because people then don't really make the effort to study other continents and see what perhaps they don't have a problem with state and religion. On the other hand, I don't want to deny that there's something very special and very interesting about the European Enlightenment, but to see this, you have to be much more specific and don't use these huge catchwords, but look at the constitutional state, certain forms of parliament, certain forms of participation that people have been thinking about, developing, trying to. To enact in society. So you have to be more precise, more specific, and not say, well, freedom, equality and so on. These are European values. That's historically not correct.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
Let's go to the colonial narratives of Europe. Well, we all know the colonial narratives of Europe, but I'm keen to know, how did these colonial narratives of this continent shape that cultural concept of Europe, and what are the lasting impacts of effects of this kind of narrative?
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Well, I think you can see this impact of colonialism in the sources, not very abstract, but very visible. For instance, if you look at the lexicon entries over the decades, let's say from 1650 to 1800, on Europe in Midwestern European sources. And you see, Europe turns from being second best, as I mentioned earlier, to being the area of the world where with the best agriculture, with the best water, the best air, the best scientific systems, the best political system, and so on. And here I think you can see, and then they say, this is why we have been able to subdue other countries militarily. And so you then see here that colonialism, the experience of being a colonizer, changes also the colonizers. It's not. I mean, we have had a lot of research on postcolonialism, on how colonialism affected the Countries colonized, but also has bad consequences for those people who are for countries and people that colonized. And the one major effect is arrogance. And you don't realize the cultural flourishing of other countries. Some scholars did, like Voltaire, they were impressed by the flourishing of cultures in other continents. But he then said, well, it's a bit of the past. It was in the past, but and now it's not the case anymore. So they try to create a story innovative where it's explainable that European countries are so successful as colonizers.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
And again, that part of the book I really enjoyed, when you bring in other thinkers from different parts of the world, you bring in Al Hajari or Kunitzer or I'm not sure if pronouncing this one, this name correct. Tatishev, I'll leave it to you to correct. Yes, yeah, yeah, yes. There are different kind of thinkers and I'm keen to know what was the significance of them in challenging that dominant idea or picture of Europe which was self defining itself.
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Yeah, the idea was to have quotes from these scholars on Europe from this very period. So from the 17th and 18th century. And they speak of cultural centers in Europe that their colleagues in France or Germany or Italy or England have already excluded from their cultural concept of Europe. So Tatishchev, as a Russian, he lives, he was an Enlightenment thinker and geographer. Hajari is a Muslim from Spain and Kuneza is a rabbi from Budapest. And they talk about big cities, cultures in Eastern Europe, in the Ottoman part of Europe, about Constantinople, Istanbul, or about Eastern European cities on the Ural river which they think belong to Europe. And of course in the concept of geography of the time, these cities belong to Europe, but for like Voltaire, Montesquieu or Lil Gentan. So Midwestern European thinkers, these cities in the Ottoman or Russian Empire, they were not part of the European culture of freedom, but part of the culture of despotism or whatever. So they thought, well, this is not Yuruk. And that's because a cultural concept of your had originated which is much, much smaller basically than the very stable geographical concept. And that's. I think it's important to listen to these voices. And it helps if we listen to these voices. We are not so impressed anymore by this very strong Midwestern European sound that tries to tell us, well, the center of Europe is where these great thinkers are and where certain ideas traveled, because these ideas traveled also somewhere else. It's a fiction to say. Well, it's a fiction to say Europe is the country of freedom and the other parts of Europe are areas of despotism. That ignores the many people who were interesting thinkers and the flourishing cultures on the continent.
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Moteza Hajizadeh
In this chapter, which is called decolonization, which is more or less about decolonization, if we could put it briefly, what does a truly decolonized concept of Europe look like and how can it help us today? How can it help Europeans today in, you know, navigating their identity, their culture and their culture as well?
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
I think it would be helpful for. I think it would be helpful for Europeans and non Europeans alike. It doesn't matter whether you're born on the continent or not. If you read scholarly books, for instance, on the history of European philosophy of law or something like this, that you have not only Locke, Montesquieu and Kant and so on, but have also the philosophy of law in the Ottoman Empire or the Russian Empire and so on, and have not used a cultural concept anymore of what European is, but a geographical concept that would be bottom up, basically what happened on the continent. Rather than have a preconceived idea of what Europe is and politically, a decolonized concept would be to say, well, if we try to answer the European. If we try to answer or respond to the Russian war on the continent, then we're not defending European values. It's about values that basically almost every country in the world agreed upon after the Second World War. I don't have to make. So it's an order of peace and people speak freely and where you don't wage war against your neighbor. And so it has nothing to do with European values, but really try to muster all democratic and free and societies where the rule of law is important against such aggressions or violations wherever they appear in the world. So that also would mean to have a decolonized concept of Europe would be an advantage, I think.
- [37:29]
Moteza Hajizadeh
And then you talk about that romantic concept of Europe and you are critical of that as well, that romanticized idea of Europe, which is, and you mentioned three main pillars of that. One of them is Christianity, the other one is Greek philosophy, and the other one is the Roman law. Can you tell us what this narrative is and what are the risks associated with it? Why do you criticize that idea, that romanticized idea of Europe?
- [37:57]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Yeah, it's very prominent idea. And to express this idea, people would say something like European culture is built on three hills, Golgata, the Acropolis and the Capitol, or Jerusalem, Rome and Athens are the foundation cities of European culture, something like this. And it's basically a fusion of Christian and Christian Religion and Greek and Roman thought. That's what the essence of Europe is. And well, it can be used for very right wing conservative ideas basically to return to pre Reformation and pre French Revolution Europe in the sense that these were the golden ages where there was a unified Christian Europe that Christians can feel at home at. A big issue is in many European countries whether Muslims have any right to immigrate basically, or not to immigrate, but to live there since many, many centuries. So it's often used in these contexts where political context and that's a danger. And then the question, of course is how to challenge it. In the book.
- [39:37]
Moteza Hajizadeh
That's right.
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Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
In the book I try to show that Greece and Rome are really as Mediterranean coastal cultures, really connected the three continents. It's not historically not convincing to say, well, this is European culture, Greek and Roman culture, many, many important thinkers and writers and never lived on European soil. And Greek and Roman Callimachos or Ptolemais or Euclid, the mathematician, they all lived in Alexandria in Egypt. There were Greeks in Egypt and North Africa. So why would you say, would you say that European culture started in Alexandria? That's somehow a strange appropriation. And also with Christianity, as with Islam and Judaism in Europe, is a result of migration basically from West Asia and with many cultural consequences. But it's a strange way to look at European culture and that there are many others. You could say, well, Europe was the heir of these traditions, but there are many other parts of the world that also studied Greek astronomy, for example, was all over Asia, even in East Asia, Ptolemaic astronomy, before it started to have its success story in Midwestern Europe. So historically and geographically it is not correct. And of course the second big one, it's very exclusionary to say, well, these are the three main pillars. So the many pagan and secular and humanist and feminist or whatever traditions, human rights traditions on European soil, that they're not covered by these three cities.
- [42:07]
Moteza Hajizadeh
That's right, yeah. When you were talking about the Roman law and the Greek, I was just reminded that even early 20th century, the Greeks or Italians or Greeks Italians, they're all Irish, but they were not really considered to be European in that sense, especially when they moved to America. So I guess there was always this demarcation as well, pretty recently, like I said, 100 years ago, we don't have to go back to ancient history. And that just to me shows the blariness of all these identitarian approaches of looking at Europe. One thing I really loved about your book is when you Talk about the significance of medieval cities. Like as I mentioned earlier, I'm kind of an enthusiast in reading medieval history. Cities like Constantinople or Cordoba, they're very, very much central to European history and they're not really peripheral, although they are treated as being peripheral. Can you just talk about the importance of these cities?
- [43:22]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
If you study medieval European history, as we mentioned before, you think of castles at nights and so on, and the Pope perhaps and Caesar, the Kaiser, the German and the French kings and so on. But in terms of the vitality of economy of culture, these centers were not the real centers on the European soil. But for many centuries Cordoba, the Muslim ruled Cordoba in Spain and the Greek Orthodox Constantinople, later the Muslim Istanbul were by far the largest cities. They had 300,000 or 500,000 depending on which century we're talking on inhabitants. Whereas Rome and Paris in the 12th century you had perhaps 30,000. They were really small rural cities. Whereas Cordoba and Constantinople were world cities where many people migrated to for many reasons. And that also have of course, social tensions. It's not a paradise. But they had also long centuries of side by side existence of many religions, many different ethnic groups. And that's fascinating. And people would say, well, they're on the margins of Europe because the Muslims came from outside and invaded Spain or something like this. But no, that's a very strange perspective because migration and invasions and military, military successes and failures we have all over the place. It's geographically in the southern part of Europe. But from the perspective of Constantinople, it's the Constantinople emperor. I would say, well, we are the ache, the the beginning of Europe and we are the head of Europe, basically. And there's the same kind of self image of. In Muslim Cordoba, it's just to be in the center of the world in a sense. So from that perspective it really makes sense to write medieval history also from the perspective of these two big metropolises on the European continent. And that shows how strangely what kind of the tunnel vision we used to have of European history.
- [46:31]
Moteza Hajizadeh
And I think that. Because in the book you're also critical of how Europe is usually associated. That geographical idea of Europe is usually associated with cities like Athens or Rome or those Gothic cathedrals and churches. And I guess this discussion about the importance of other cities highlights why this could be a bit problematic there. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:58]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
And if you. Very much so if you then return to just speaking to Europe as a continent, as I think that it's the only way I as a scholar can use the term, if I don't use it as an Abbreviation for European Union, then it makes sense to look at it bottom up and for instance, speak about the 12th century and say, well, where do we have for instance, religious architecture or sacred architecture? And then most people who know something about the Middle Ages would say, well, it's 12th century is the, the emergence of Gothic, the Gothic cathedral. But there's so much more to it. If you leave, if you abandon this tunnel vision. For instance, the wooden churches in Norway, in Borgund and Onnes, World heritage sites, or the mosques In Granada the 12th century, or the synagogue in Erfurt, or the White Cathedral in Vladimir in Russia, or the Romanian church castles. There's so much religious architecture that is in the history of architecture very, very important. But when we think of European architecture in the 12th century, we think Gothic, but it's a very regional phenomenon, but later becomes a world phenomenon. But it's really liberating and very productive to look at the continent bottom up and see what's happening there. And then you see you do justice to the many more traditions you have on the soil of the continent.
- [48:55]
Moteza Hajizadeh
You sort of answered the next question, which I had, which was that bottom up approach. And you do talk about some thinkers in the book who have tried to come up with a definition of Europe, but each have their own shortcomings. And we're not going to get into super details about each definition, but it would be great if you could briefly touch up on them. One of them is Barack, whose works I really enjoy, the French Thinker, and then Milan Kundra and also Steiner. They all have definitions of Europe, but you believe that their definitions have shortcomings and that's why you propose that more democratized, that bottom up, scripted model of Europe. Can you tell us what are the shortcomings with their works? Braque or Kundro or Steiner?
- [49:41]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Yeah, well, for Remy Bragg, basically the epitome of a European is a Catholic intellectual speaking Romance language. And for Milan Kundara it's a modern secularized intellectual like Rene Descartes and his followers in Eastern Europe. And for George Steiner, the ideal image basically is an intellectual sitting in a cafe, in a 19th century cafe, and a sexualized humanist intellectual. And this is a bit very short summary of what they've been writing about. But that's how they feel at home basically in Europe. And that's perfectly fine. But then they declare this, their own feeling at home in certain traditions to be the essence of Europe. And that's what you find in Braque, basically Latinity is the essence of Europe. Or Steiner has this in his Essay on the idea of Europe. Five parameters defining the idea and they all featuring around this, where he, he feels at home. And then after I criticize these three essays in the third chapter, after having spoken about these colonialized and romantic concepts, and you can then see, well, there's so many people not belonging to Europe then Muslims, Orthodox Christians, Eastern Europeans, Russians, so many phases of history, many cultural intellectual traditions. And in a sense, I don't think at this point in the podcast I need to justify why I find this very problematic. I, I myself feel very traditional. I love certain European traditions that I like, so certain parts of European classical music and novels and so on, as many people in the world. But it doesn't make really much sense to then somehow intellectualize this and draw the spotlight on this and say, well, this is Europe, it's not a good tactic.
- [52:36]
Moteza Hajizadeh
I'm coming to the last few questions that I have a couple of more questions.
- [52:40]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Maybe.
- [52:43]
Moteza Hajizadeh
One of them is that you argue that Europe's strength, Europe as a concept, where Europe as a site of identity, the strength is it's in civic obligation rather than a cultural loyalty. What do you mean by that and how can it help us focus reshape our understanding of European identity?
- [53:07]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Yeah, I think it's not only for Europe, but in general. If you think about the relation between citizens and the state, as we started talking about in the beginning of the podcast, about emotional attachment to European Union or to a state in general, I think it's not the way to go. The differentiation between loyalty and obligation, I take from Judith Sklar, the political theorist, and as I've tried to argue now that labels of cultural identity are really a nuisance and also a danger. And most often the loyalties we have are with a certain region, with our family, with a certain group of friends. We all have our own cultural neighborhoods where we feel at home and this is where we feel emotionally attached. But that's not what we need for state. A state is a much more pragmatic thing. And what we instead need, I think is a passion for good Ptolemy, a passion for good politics, for good arguments for solutions. And we can be very passionate about it. But it's not because our past was great, or the past of our nation or because our culture is great. I think it's a very wrong attitude. But because we find good solutions, because people can speak freely, because they can go to a lawyer and appeal for their rights, and we can look at statistics of Reporters Without Borders and so on, or Human Rights Watch and so on, and these are Arguments that make people engaged in their communities. And then we can also talk about Europe and say, well, most European countries are doing quite well on these things, and that's why it's worth supporting these structures, these political structures. But not because the culture of Europe is so great or the past, because then it's getting into distortions. The same with a nation, because then you get a dominating culture, as with nations, usually a very dominating group explains their culture to be the culture of the nation, as has happened very often in history. And then it's very difficult to mobilize everybody for a good idea. And that's a real danger. I think.
- [56:11]
Moteza Hajizadeh
I have one question about the methodology of the book, and then I'll try to bring it all to an end with the final question. But the book, it's. And I guess a lot of people have picked it up from this podcast as well, that you celebrate the achievements of Europe. At the same time, you're critical of some aspects of Europe. You advocate for bringing in that multiplicity of narratives, let's say, or identities, which makes Europe what it is. In terms of your book and your methodology, is it a post colonial. Are you post colonial method? Are you postmodern Neuro method? Where do you categorize that?
- [56:59]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Yeah, I mean, the title has colonial in it. But perhaps you realize today I try to avoid postcolonial jargon and postcolonial terminology. As I said, it has a very precise meaning in trying to overcome certain traditions that come from a certain time. And also, I think we need to agree on, we can't afford to be relativist in our times. We need to agree on arguments and political structures, and we can't afford to really think that vocabularies are too private for being shared. And so in that sense, it's neither really post colonial postmodernist, but it tries to offer, in that sense, it's postcolonial, tries to go beyond concepts from colonial times and be very critical of European arrogance and at the same time still make it possible to feel at home in some of these European traditions for everybody. I think it's possible. It's possible to be post colonial and still, like certain European traditions, may well go hand in hand.
- [58:36]
Moteza Hajizadeh
You've done it in this book, I.
- [58:37]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Guess.
- [58:41]
Moteza Hajizadeh
To be fair, there, even Edward Said himself was the founder of Postcom. He was a huge, huge lover of European culture. He loved enlightenment, he loved music, and he had a lot of theories in music as well. I don't know much about music, but he was a very well versed musician who had theories about music as well. And he was a lover of all those great. He was a secular humanist in many ways. Yeah. And that's why, I guess at the beginning I said that I love postcolonialism, but I don't like some of the later postcolonial theorists or writers or even vulgar critics who just took it to a completely different direction that Edward Said himself wasn't happy with. And he did write about it before he died. He did write about it in the afterword to the latest edition of Orientalism before he died. I think it was published in 2001 or 2002. And he specifically mentions that the book is not anti European or anti Enlightenment. I have one final question and he has this. Yeah, go ahead, please.
- [59:47]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
He has this wonderful interview with Dutch television of 2000, I think, where he very explicitly says, well, I don't understand why people make me the father of post colonialism and especially of politics of identity. Because he's really, in these later years, he's very clear, as you said, about being a humanist in the sense that human traditions are open to every human. And that's quite a liberating way to try to overcome post colonial attitudes in a very strong way. I think, of course, you need to be sensitive to the histories of certain trends. If you say, well, I love black culture, I am. I immerse myself in black culture or in any culture. But it's liberating to think this way.
- [60:45]
Moteza Hajizadeh
One final question, and I'm trying to bring it all to an end. I think we did mention towards the beginning of the interview that in certain countries in Europe you have the rise of more populist or they were right wings governments who take pride in being European, which is a good thing, of course, but their idea of Europe is completely different from what you have in mind or many other people like you have in mind. They're completely against migration, they're completely against even some of their own politicians. They have taken up that ultra nationalist view towards what Europeans or towards their country, I'm keen to know. And again, more recent in the past two or three years with the conflict between Palestine and Israel and the protest in the streets, it's happening in Australia every week, in America, in Europe, which has also brought a lot of those European ideas under the question in terms of respect for human life. But you can see a lot of European governments support the government of Israel as well, or even oppress the freedom of speech. So it has even cast shadow on those European legacies as well, for European citizens. So I'm wondering, I don't know if I can call it a crisis or not, or it might go away in a few years. But I'm keen to. In these troubled times, how does your book or what lessons can we learn historically thinking what lessons can we learn about what Europe historically meant and how can it help us overcome that ultra nationalistic sentiments towards our identity? And I don't think it applies to Europe, although I guess we can apply to every culture as well.
- [62:36]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Right, right. Well, one encouraging thing I think one can learn from the past on the European soil is the history of multi ethnic and multi religious cities. And of course one can also learn from studying certain modes of thought. But looking also at history and cities like Cordoba, Constantinople, but also Prague or Kiev, many, many cities in Eastern Europe also were very multicultural and very multiethnic, but not in a, in a way that you would call a melting pot or multicultural mixing, but you would just be used to see many different colors, many different religions on many different languages and clothings on the street. And of course, I don't want to say we should go back to living in different quarters of cities that can be very dangerous for societies. But there's a way in which these older European cities and West Asian, North African cities were very effective in organizing a life together. And that was sometimes a side by side existence and sometimes more of a mixing. But it was. There was neither too much pressure on assimilation, as you would have it on the right wing side towards the light culture, nor was there the idea that we would have a multicultural melting pot society. But it would acknowledge that everybody somehow lives in their own cultural quarters. And that's perhaps very human that we'd surround ourselves with people that are similar to us. I think this was somehow a middle way that we can learn from the past that there was always migration on European culture. There was no really indigenous people on European soil. And but people knew how to live with this by, as I said, not demanding too much in terms of assimilation nor of mixing, but finding a middle way of respect. Yeah, that's just one lesson to learn, I think from this older history of, of European cities. But such cities exist also on other continents. Yeah. And that's. But of course, Hungary, for example, now a very nationalistic government, has been one of the most multi ethnic cities in the Middle Ages. It's quite ironic.
- [65:49]
Moteza Hajizadeh
Thank you very much, Professor Dak Nicholas Hasay for taking the time to speak with us. Really, really enjoyed reading the book and I strongly recommend it to our listeners. And viewers. This is a really accessible and easy read and with a lot of great materials. Like I told you, I was interested in medieval history. There's something about medieval history there. Study literature. You talk about Milan Kondra there. What is European? On Overcoming Colonial Romantic Modes of Thought, published by Amsterdam University Press. Thank you so much for your time.
- [66:21]
Dr. Dag Niklaus Hanse
Well, thank you Mortise for this wonderful conversation and for having me here on your podcast. Thanks.