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- [00:01]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
Girl, winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders that perfect hang on the patio sundress, those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. This episode is brought to you by Prime Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus.
- [00:46]
Ajanta Subramanian
Elle every year after the Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point and more, slow burns, second
- [00:53]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting.
- [00:58]
Ajanta Subramanian
Watch only on Prime. Welcome to the cast pod, where we assemble scholars, activists, community organizers, artists, and others to make sense of what cast is, how it works, how it's experienced, and how it has traveled and taken root both inside and outside of South Asia. What have people done to perpetuate, transform, and even attempt to abolish caste? I'm your host, Ajanta Subramanian, a professor of anthropology at the City University of New York. And joining me today is Tenmari Sande Rajan, founder of the Dalit feminist organization Equality Labs and author of the best selling book the Trauma of a Dalit Feminist Meditation on survivorship, healing and abolition. Then Marie is also the host of her own podcast, cast in the USA, which aired in 2020 and is a must listen for anyone interested in the experience of caste in the Diaspora. So welcome to the podcast then, Marie.
- [02:07]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Jay Beam and Jay Savitri, everyone.
- [02:12]
Ajanta Subramanian
All right. Okay, so let's jump in. I had a few questions first about the book and then a broader set of questions about anti caste politics, anti caste, caste mobilization in the United States and how it compares with other places. So you begin your book, the Trauma of Caste with this really arresting anecdote about not knowing your cast until the fifth grade. Can you recount that story of how you came to know your family's cast background?
- [02:44]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
So I think one of the things that was really striking for me was that both of my parents were actually passing. So, you know, all these things that other Indian families would do, where they would openly talk about their caste or where they were from, what religion they practiced, those were all things that they hid. And so I watched it as a child and it definitely struck something into me. Like things like my dad hiding his name. You know, his full name is, you know, Thevalai Baliam Simpson Soundarajam. And he never wanted people to know that middle name because it was a Christian name, which would reveal his past caste background. So he'd always ask people to call him Raj or he would initialize his name so he would go by T.S. soundarajan or T.S. rajan because he was hiding.
- [03:35]
Ajanta Subramanian
Just so our listeners are clear, what is it about the relationship between being Dalit and being Christian that is important for listeners to know?
- [03:44]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
What many caste oppressed people did is they converted out of Hinduism to other faiths where they could have greater connection to the divine without an interlocutor caste like the Brahmins religions that allowed them to be educated as well as have more gender equity. You know, so that first kind of transition point was shamanic faiths like Jainism and Buddhism. And then later on, Sikhism was another resistance faith as well as the Ravadasiya faith. And then eventually when, you know, Sufism and Christianity came to the subcontinent, many caste oppressed people converted to those faiths. And certainly in my community in Tamil Nadu, certain missionaries targeted caste oppressed people because we were in such a pathetic state, you know, banned from education, facing like, not even having access to wells and water. Um, you know, and, you know, in my grand, my great grandmother's generation, women couldn't even wear blouses, you know, so it was just such a punishing level of carcerality and dehumanization. And it was English missionaries that actually converted many of our communities to, to give us a pathway to dignity, you know, so my mother's Christianity came from my grandmother, who was one of the first women in her village to be taken up by missionaries. And that's how she got English education and she was the teacher in those villages. So, you know, for anyone in that area and who's Tamil, they often look at anyone who is Christian as being explicitly dit. And so that would immediately out the family as being cast oppressed. And this is true across many faiths. Like if you, if you see in the United States someone who is dullit and they say that they're Buddhist or they say that they're Rasia, that is a clear indicator to someone who knows that they are cast oppressed. And it's essentially outing their community, which is why people will hide their faith.
- [05:50]
Ajanta Subramanian
Thank you for that.
- [05:51]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
And so I think that when, you know, the Bullpol explosion happened you know, the carbide plant. That was like, the first thing that kind of came into my mind was watching these horrific images on TV and then seeing the word untouchable. You know, and it kept coming up in the coverage. You know, many of the victims of this explosion were from the untouchable cast. What is this word? What does it need to be untouchable? And so as I was preparing my book report about it, I remember going into the encyclopedia and looking it up, and it just captured my imagination. Like, how could a group of people be so terrible that you. To touch them would be to be polluting? And so in my child's mind, I was like, this is terrible. Then I read about the cast system. I was like, this is horrific. And then I went to my mom, never thinking that we were from a caste oppressed community, because I was like, oh, certainly, we're upper caste. I think everybody would assume they want to be that. And so when I talked to my mom about it, she just had this look that was so devastating, you know, because it was like she had basically fled oceans, left continents to leave it all behind. And it was certainly not a conversation she wanted to have with a child that she loved. And here I was, bringing this little platter of pain right to her, and she had to have a very honest conversation with me. And my mom was eloquent even then, you know, and she said caste was a lie that the wicked tell to take power from those that are weak and vulnerable. And, you know, we were the untouchable cast, but that's not who we are. We're human, and we're children of God, and don't even think about them, you know, but it pained her. Every aspect of saying it pained her, because it's not unlike the top that black parents have with young black children, where you have to introduce the parameters of a system that sets to dehumanize your whole family and your community. And somehow you have to break that news in a way that still empowers dignity, that still empowers love and agency. And I think my mom did the best that she could to. And it still was painful, right? I remember that very first night thinking about what it meant to be from an untouchable cast. And all I could think about was, I'm a spiritual criminal. Like, this is terrible. And so I kept thinking about, you know, what crime did I do? Was I a rapist? Was I a thief? Was I a murderer? And it's so carceral, because caste is not just a system that you Know, creates, have nots and haves. You know, it is a system that justifies that division based on spiritual purity and condemnation. It's, it's a spiritual carceral framework. But for children, how is that a tenable thing? You know, we are beings of light and possibility and now all of a sudden you have this burden that is not yours. It's, it's created from a social fiction that's violent and cruel and important. You know,
- [09:26]
Ajanta Subramanian
so, you know, your, your parents had a very strong critique of caste. I mean, just the way your mother put it to you is, you know, we are, we are children of God, right? This is a lie. It's a lie meant to dehumanize and we don't accept it. And yet they felt the need to pass, to hide, right, to conceal their caste identities. So what made you decide to go public with your self identification as a Dalit?
- [10:02]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
Well, I think what's really important is especially that generation of Tamil immigrants that came to LA in the 70s and 80s, most of them were from the dominant caste and they very quickly recreated dominant caste networks. So I think that the question of my parents passing really came from the fear of losing their only connection to home and the immigrant networks that supported them. In a white supremacist culture, if they came out as Dalit, what would happen? Would people stop talking to them? Would people stop coming to their houses? You know, they couldn't, they didn't, they couldn't and they didn't want that. And my dad had a lived experience of being targeted for being Dalit when he was in college because he went to, you know, a medical school where he was a reservation student. And, and he went to school with the same gounders who appreciate, impressed his Dalit community. And he always tells me the story of what it was like to register and to see the grandson of the Gander family that used to chase them with knives. So he was always in a state of vigilance and fear while he was in school. And people didn't like that he did well in school. And so they even sent investigators to his home village because they questioned whether or not he was a Hindu Dalit versus a Christian Dalit. So they questioned his illiterate family members to try to entrap them so that they could cancel his reservation scholarship. So they came to the United States with a fear and a lived experience of having to hide and be very minimal with what you share when you're surrounded by Dominic Cast because you don't know what can happen. And so, you know, and even my mom, she, you know, she's a Christian, you know. You know, I think many families are syncretic. They have Hindu, they Christian, you know, we get to have, you know, spiritual autonomy, but our autonomy is policed by the dominant cast. And so for my mom, you know, my dad chose to be a seeker, and he did a bunch of different things. My mom, she was decidedly Christian, but even in practicing in Orange County, California, she felt like she couldn't practice openly. So she would. She, in our little playroom, she basically put Jesus in our closet. So when it came time to pray, she would close the blinds, lock the door, open up the closet, and then bring out her thumbel prayer book and then pray, and we would pray with her. And then when it was done, she would quickly clean up all the signs. And so I grew up thinking, why are we doing this? I was like, this is God. It should be available to anyone. And yet the terror she had about being found out comes back to what it was like to be a Tamil delit Christian in a Hindu community in Coimbatore and having to be afraid, you know, so I think that, you know, my parents never explicitly told me, you better hide things. But watching their PTSD and their fear and their terror and what it was like to be in the closet, I picked up on. And I was. You know, I went to Berkeley for my undergrad, and it was a really golden era for women of color politics. You know, there was a women of color research center with Linda Burnham. You know, members of the Combihe Collective and other black feminists from the Black Panther Party were also around us, as well as Gloria Anzaldua and Chicana feminists. So my generation of, you know, bipoc feminists, we were loved and cared for and really mentored to feel comfortable in our full intersectional identity. And I think as I was being mentored by these other elders, you know, it became untenable not to speak my truth and not to be public, especially as I saw other South Asians really leaning into their identity. And as they were leaning into their identity, they were perpetuating caste harm. And. And that troubled me very deeply. And so I think I was ready to come out when I was 18 or 19. And, you know, I think, you know, the funny thing about parents and children is they obviously want you to be the best version of yourself that you can be. And I think they imagine, yes, we want you to surpass us and go the places we didn't go, but when it actually happens, it's quite terrifying. So I think for them, they didn't anticipate that they would have a child that would be so focused on the suffering of caste. I think they'd hoped that it could be put in the rear view mirror and I would be vivid. But the reality is that there's no freedom of this system while any of us are unfree. And I really felt that by speaking this truth, you know, that there could be an opening, not just for myself and my family, but for many cast oppressed people that were closeted. And when I. When I was out, I was one of the only people nationally that was an out Dalit leader. And I think it was a very controversial and challenging and painful thing. And when I first came out, I faced a lot of violence. I faced slurs and deplatforming, but I also faced incredible secret support from Dalit community members who could not come out. And I always remember this very intimate exchange I had when I was giving a talk when I was at 19, and this one woman came up to me, and she's like. She just whispered, and she said, I'm just like you. I'm just like you. And she's like, it's not possible for me to be out, but I just want you to know how much it matters that you came in. So I. I do think it was the right thing to do. I think I was young enough to not understand all of the ramifications of what it meant. But I'm so glad that I did this because it really set a course of my own work and eventually the work that I did collectively with other Dalit women and Equality Labs, to just keep using our stories as the platform for our political agency and really look at how we could turn suffering into political power.
- [16:40]
Ajanta Subramanian
Effy, why do you think it is such a threat, especially to dominant castes in the diaspora, when Dalits self identify as such? Like, what is it that is so destabilizing for them?
- [16:58]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
I think that caste works for them as long as they're not confronted with its consequences of dehumanization. You know, like, it's a wonderful thing to have pride as a Brahmin until you have to realize how much power is extorted from other communities in order to lift up that caste. So our claiming of dignity in space is a very powerful, poignant reminder of the costs of this social fiction. And when we come out, we share what has happened to our people. We share what atrocities we're fleeing. We share what exclusions that are currently occurring. And I think that's tremendously intimidating. And also I think, Dominic, caste have been trained to shut caste oppressed people from recognizing our indignities, speaking to our wounds, because again, it's an inconvenient truth and it also requires a remedy. And who is going to be responsible for that remedy? You know, so there's kind of like an economic and political, you know, justification for the silence. But I think there's an emotional distress and a training of nervous systems many generations back to allow people to be okay with this level of dehumanization. They have to just never hear from those that they have dehumanized.
- [18:25]
Ajanta Subramanian
I had one other question about the depth of your engagement with environmental justice and indigenous epistemologies and especially with like the emphasis on land as both a material and a spiritual resource. And in your book you argue for a move beyond the emancipatory possibilities of urban modernity. Right. That was a clear focus for Dalit leaders like Vanbedkar who saw rural life as entrenched in caste tyranny. Right. But you're calling for in some ways a move away from urban or a move beyond urban life. Right. As key to true liberation. So can you say more about what this vision of a return to land and an embodied relationship to land consists of? Why is that important, do you think, for sort of anti caste work?
- [19:25]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
Well, I think that, you know, I really think of, you know, our embed cry and Dalit history month ancestors like Dr. Ambedkar, you know, Ayodidas, you know, Jyotipayan, Savitri, Raipule, they are a product of their times. So when you think about when they were working, you know, between the 1900s to the 1930s and 40s, you know, they were part of a generation of caste oppressed activists that were really struggling to determine what would be a free India. And really, you know, you're absolutely right. Like, I think similar to what it means to be a sharecropper and you know, Jim Crow era United States, you know, rural areas and the village areas in, in South Asia were endemic with caste. There was no way that you could actually see freedom in that. And it was very much also they had to fight against other Indian independence thinkers like Gandhi who romanticized the village because they could romanticize it because again, they're not the ones picking up the ship of the dominant caste. They're not the ones working, you know, back breaking hours and not even getting, you know, they have to tithe their food. You know, they're not actually, they're working without getting resources in advance. So it makes sense that they would want to break caste occupations related to the village and look to the city and look to modernity as a way to create connections of caste oppressed people, you know, beyond the dominant caste hegemony in the subcontinent and having an internationalist view in the way to do that. And certainly you can look at Per and think about his engagements with other leftist movements as one of those, you know, potential, you know, containers. And also Dr. Ambedkar and his relationship with W.E.B. du Bois. They were not just about the city, they were about nation building and a connection of other free peoples across borders. But I think when I'm speaking about a connection to the land, I'm not talking about a political project that's about building the nation. I'm actually talking about connection to the land in terms of the healing from dehumanization that occurs from Dominator systems. And that was something I wrote a lot about in my book. The trauma of Caste is that in working with other Buddhists and, and mindfulness practitioners like Ruth King and Rhonda McGee, as well as folks like Rathmakam and Eduardo Duran, who is an indigenous social worker and therapist, you know, much of their thinking has been that dominator systems can't just be dealt with in the terrain of the mind and with logic and with arguments. There's a training our body and our nervous systems, you know, and that we hold these soul wounds which are sites of intergenerational pain, where Dominator people who are from the Dominator cast and classes have their own sets of training that sets about fragility and avoidance to what has been done in their name. And then oppressed peoples have another set of training that has to do with how you handle this over overwhelming level of dehumanization. And, and I think as a Buddhist and in thinking with other Buddhists around, how do we heal from this separation not just from each other as humans, but also from the ecosystem, the earth and other species. The only way to fully commit to inter being is to be in interbeing. And I think that's where I see a relationship to the land, you know, where we are now. Even the or order that was achieved after World War II is broken, you know, as we've seen with the genocide in Palestine. And no, no, no, democracy is safe, you know, and, and as we see that we, we are in a very critical, chaotic state with what humans have done to the environment and climate catastrophe. And so in some ways we have to have new relationships with other species and the earth to set a cycle of healing ourselves and the world that we live in. And that that is not a return to an encasted village. It's about being able to create a vision of new possibilities of interrelationality that we have to rediscover together and have the courage to do so. Because if we don't, there won't. It's not like there won't be d and dominant caste people. There won't even be a human species. So we've kind of brought ourselves to a brink. And you know, in some ways I think this is also a call for anti caste thinkers that, you know, a lot of anti caste thinkers really root themselves in. Dr. Ambedkar and you know, the Indian Constitution is such a, such a critical legal intervention all across the state subcontinent because it is the first legal document that a Dalit contributed to the building of and that itself is historic. But what do you do when you can no longer ensure the rule of law? Right. All Dalit always says we just want the implementation of the rule of law. Where do you go when the nation state itself is failing? So I think that this is a period where we have to have courage, we have to have strength. And I think we have to really look at how. And this is a model that comes out of the Collective Future Fund. And one of the thinkers there, Nicole Robinson, was someone who really kind of shared this with people that we're in community with. But I really love this framework where we have to simultaneously be death doulas to systems that are failing while also being birth doulas to what comes next. And I think the invitation for us as embed karites is how do we take that commitment to the spirit of the rule of law, of frameworks that center equity across gender and across all different kinds of protected classes, and then move them into experiments that then help to build what comes next from this place of dying empire and failing democracies. It doesn't mean that we're not committed to democratic politics, but what are the new entities that will take shape and form in that process? And this is a very heartbreaking thing to ask in bedcares, right? Because the battle to form, you know, our postcolonial states was very, very powerful. Same thing in terms of like where we've gotten to civil rights in the United States. But we have to be able to know what to jettison in order to be able to be nimble to build what comes next. And I think that nexus of mutual aid and experiments, of community support are where we see this really potent place of possibility and power building.
- [26:39]
Ajanta Subramanian
You write about this a prior moment of possibility when things could have opened up and gone in a very different direction. And that was in 2001 1. You were part of this young people of color hip hop delegation that went to Durban, South Africa to attend the UN World Conference Against Racism. And this conference took place in the first week of September 2001. And you know, you talk about these different alignments that became evident in the space of that conference, Right. So on the one hand, these sort of burgeoning solidarities between anti caste, anti racist and anti colonial movements, and on the other hand, this alignment between the U.S. israel and India, Right. To ensure that Israel was not named an apartheid state and that caste was characterized as a problem that was internal to India. Right. And then, of course, the very next week, 911 happens. Can you reflect on this earlier moment of possibility that was foreclosed by the global war on terror? We often think of these moments where things could have been and never were, but they're also sort of through lines from these prior moments that were sort of prematurely foreclosed. Right. There are through lines where possibilities that weren't fully realized then perhaps could be realized at a later moment. So I wonder if you can say something about 2001 and how you see the connections between that moment and now.
- [28:17]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
Well, you know, I think, you know, it was such a powerful moment, I think, for anyone that was at that gathering, because we saw, you know, the way that the nation states were corroborating to keep oppressed people out. Right, right. So basically, the United States was saying to Israel and India, we won't say anything about the Palestinian issue. And we are certainly not going to bring up caste as one of the listed within this new document that we're creating. As long as you guys do not give anything to entertain the issue of reparations and the experience of enslaved Africans. And Israel did the same. India did the same. So you saw they are going to collaborate behind closed doors to not address historical harm and to hide what we can see with our very own eyes as to what's happening to oppressed people. At the same time, on the ground, you saw a different movement entirely of social movements. So I'll always remember that vision of parae drums, you know, Dalit drummers who were playing like our historical drum with keffiyehs around their neck, you know, while there were Palestinians dancing alongside us. And. It was just, you know, and being part of a multiracial group of bipoc folks that surrounded and witnessed and loved every part of that, you know, and I think we could see the potential of what a global movement to end discrimination and rehumanize those that have been targeted by Dominator systems. And it was freeing and it was beautiful and it was lovely. And especially to see so many women of color from around the world to be there. And as a young Delaware person, it was like a really tantalizing vision of what freedom could feel like. You know, like, we're turning the corner. We have a global document to end discrimination. Let's go. And then we literally flew back the weekend that 911 happened. And that was it, you know, just like that, Every dream was dead. We were now in this new, horrific, you know, reality of war. And, you know, and then the first Muslim registry program began and then we all got atomized, you know, but I will say, you know, one of the, the, the real kind of legacies of that moment was a development of this, you know, rapporteur position dedicated to the elimination of old forms of discrimination based on, you know, dissent. And, and it's a really powerful position because it's a direct legacy of this moment. And for the first time, it's being held by Adalit woman, you know, doctor, you know, Ashmi kp. So I see a through line to her role in that office and its office being created at the world conference. And, you know, the seeds of that moment, you know, go into lots of our different work. And certainly it inspired me. And it was one of those memories I hold in terms of, you know, having founded Equality Labs with my other Dalit feminists. I saw the power of global feminist, you know, power building. And, and I wanted to make sure that there was a platform with my other, you know, Dalit feminist leaders to be able to continue that work.
- [32:00]
Ajanta Subramanian
You know, I've had several people on the podcast who've talked about transnational solidarities and especially between anti caste and anti racist movements, including the borrowing of language. Right. To highlight shared forms of violence and discrimination. And you yourself use the term apartheid, right, which comes from the context of South African race relations. You use it to refer to the social dynamics of caste. So I wonder if you could reflect on what the pros and cons are of translating across social movements and experiential realities. You know, are there, are there sticking points in the efforts to find common ground between Dalit and black struggles or. Or between ambedkarrite and left struggles? I just wonder whether you can say a little more about what it is to try to build out these coalitions. What are the sort of challenges and opportunities of doing that?
- [33:01]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
Well, I. I do want to just kind of flag that. For me, I don't see cast as only analogous with black communities. I actually feel like there are so many relationships that, you know, we've built at Equality Labs with indigenous communities, with Latin communities, with other Asian American communities, because again, dominator systems are global, you know, and when we get racialized in North America, we all have very different and distinct experiences. And I think in building solidarity, it's not about, like, it's not an intellectual thing where it's like, I take your language, you take my language. It's actually story building, you know, it's sharing meals, it's building really deep relationships. And I think that is really what makes the difference in terms of meaningful solidarity, not transactional solidarity where our liberations are linked, you know, So I think I'm, you know, part of the reason why I use the term cast apartheid really came from the World Conference Against Racism in Durban because there was a very famous black paper that was released that talked about caste apartheid. And I think it was intentional deployment, you know, because we were in South Africa. But it also was very accurate, like having seen an apartheid nation. That is exactly how Dalits live in South Asia. So it feels appropriate. Caste system feels very banal compared to the extreme atrocities that allow for the holding of hostage of so many people's lives and destinies and freedom of movement. But I also think that colonizers learn how to oppress us. Right? So much of the apartheid structure was learned by English people in how effectively they could govern the subcontinent with a few. You know, there's only 100,000 of them at the height of the empire. But they basically knew if they created a pyramid system with some people at the top, it would allow for the governing of the masses. And that was the logic that went on to inform South African apartheid. Right. So I think so much of how we use language and how we build appropriate connections have to do. Do we have meaningful relationships of accountability between our partners? Right? And so, like, I think of a really good example of this is like Dalit lives matter. You know, there was this time when Black lives matter hashtag, they asked for other communities not to use that hashtag, right? Because they wanted to not decenter black bodies. So we are a North American organization. So when we saw that, even though we had folks in the subcontinent that wanted us to use Dalit lives matter as a hashtag, we did not out of Honor of the relationships that we had. And again, these are not transactional. These are meaningful relationships with other black leaders that we had a, you know, we kind of went back and forth on it. And then we were like, you know what? It's just easier for us not to do this and we're not going to do that. And so even though we would get like the odd message about why aren't you guys participating in this? Do you not believe in X, Y and Z?
- [36:18]
Ajanta Subramanian
And we explained from South Asia, you would get these messages from South Asia,
- [36:21]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
from other people that were South Asian. And we said, no, we're actually being accountable to our, our organization partners. And you know, and then we pointed people to an article and then left it at that, you know, So I think solidarity means that you're accountable, you're transparent, you're learning, and you're also growing with each other, you know, And I think that, you know, language is only one part of it, you know, But I think that it's very important to know that when oppressed peoples come together, the desire to build shared vocabulary and shared experiences is because of how dehumanizing it is to be invisibilized by the dominator classes that we're navigating mutually. And I will say about the leftist piece.
- [37:07]
Ajanta Subramanian
Yes, yes, yes.
- [37:08]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
Why there's such a hostility that many ambedkarrites have to South Asian leftists in country has to do with the casteism inside leftist movements in the subcontinent where they will talk about wanting Dalits to be the proletariat, but the leadership is still Brahmin and upper caste. And then putting people into harm's way while they still kind of maintain power. And then also dynamics of repeated appropriation. So a movement might start in an embed cry space and then you'll have leftist groups try to appropriate it, break the leadership, and then create separations. And certainly that also happens at times in North America. There's just not a respect for autonomous Dalit leadership times. So it's not about being hostile to a class analysis. It's being hostile to attempts to appropriate and break our autonomy, which is actually very different. And certainly that critique also happened in North America. That's why you had, you know, formations of bipoc leftists that actually held deep critique of white socialist movements who were repeatedly trying to use bipoc people as a base without giving them, you know, power at the table.
- [38:23]
Ajanta Subramanian
Right, yeah, that's a really, really important point. But I wonder about the other side, where, you know, there have been arguments about the importance of the capitalist market. Right. In allowing people to break out of forms of caste labor. I myself have started working on this gold mining company town in South India where Dalits fled to. Right. Dalits who were part of the system of agrarian bondage fled to this company town because they saw the emancipatory potential in industrial labor. Right. So for them, industrial labor held out a kind of promise, Right. Of a break with caste. Do you have any thoughts on that?
- [39:17]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
Well, I think, you know, I think about a lot of the folks that have written about like the black wealth gap due to systemic, you know, extortion and racial policies that led to black folks not having the same access to, you know, not just income, but generational wealth. Right. Because of extortion. I think the same is true for caste oppressed people. Like, am I mad that, you know, caster pressed people, especially people who are first generation earners and learners, are having to try to be in, you know, income positions where they're supporting themselves and many family members? Absolutely not. They have to overcome lots of intergenerational extortion of their labor. You know, and so it's, you know, the fact that there's an exploitative white supremacist or Brahminical, you know, capital market, that's not their fault. They're just trying to do their best to like manage, you know, an unfair system and try to get as a leg up for their family and their community. But I think that there is this commitment and cast oppressed people similar to other oppressed communities called payback to society, which also comes from like with this practice where even if you do make such money, you're tidying back some capacity for community development. And that has always been the case. Like for example, I think you're. Are you working in like the gold field area?
- [40:45]
Ajanta Subramanian
The gold fields? Yes, exactly.
- [40:50]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
In Karnataka. Right. So some of the first workers there were workers organized by Ayodidas, you know, this very famous Tamil Dalit Buddhist. And he was also one of the first diasporic organizers. And so wherever Tamil Dalits went, and they didn't call themselves Dalits, they called themselves Buddhists. And they were very much organized through a newspaper he did called Wadubaisa. You know, from South Africa to Australia to hill country and Tamil Nadu to these gold fields, wherever he would organize, he asked for them to donate back so that they would have funds to organize and build. And he had a vision. He was like, what? Wouldn't it be great if we had an investment fund that could support you know, caste oppressed businesses, you know, it never got to the scale. But he laid a vision and an architecture because he could see that we needed to have collective investment to create collective infrastructure, which is what many other castes have done all throughout time. Right. If you are a Brahmin or a Patel, you don't necessarily have to always go to a bank. Or maybe if you do go to a bank, you're going to someone who's of your caste. Because there's so much caste wealth within our networks. Right. That's something that cast oppressed peoples try to break and they do that through this kind of collective processes. And it's been there, you know, for many, many years because that's the only way that we can break out.
- [42:17]
Ajanta Subramanian
But that is really fascinating.
- [42:20]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
It's a survival mechanism. Not. And we're seeing survival not just as individual but for our people. But that's still, we're still not responsible for holding up the ecosystem. I think we need to look at the billionaires and the people and the caste that they are from and how they are continuing to exploit and hold the wealth of millions in the subconscious.
- [42:44]
Ajanta Subramanian
Yeah, that's very well taken. I had just two more questions and again you've already touched upon this, but I'm really curious about whether there's anything that distinguishes anti caste organizing in the US that you can point to.
- [43:08]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
Well, I would say I can speak for EL because I know the work we do in Equality Labs. I think what's very distinctive about our work is one, it's rooted in feminism and an intersectional analysis that is not the case all around the world. And I think because of that we had a very strong survivor framework. You know, our leaders are part of MeToo movements both in South Asia and the United States. And that's made a huge difference because when there is gender based harm inside of our community, we have a pathway and we have a process. Second, I think the other thing that I think is really powerful is, you know, I think we as an institution in EL, because of the power building experiences we've had both in the subcontinent and in the United States, we knew that power building had to be linked with research and data collection. And so I think being able to have policy that's informed by work that we've done in our reports, whether it's related to work we've done with the tech companies and the addition of CAST as a protected category which we've won in every major social media platform. That is a huge win led by Adelit women, which I'm extremely proud of, but also the work to build this, this, this project of adding cast as a protected category. And I started with our 2016 survey documenting caste in the United States, which is still one of the only data sets that have documented cast in the United States in or outside of the academy. That's a, that's a massive thing. And I think having that data set really had like a snowball effect, right? It, we had congressional hearings, you know, this led to us, you know, getting wins across multiple universities, including the Cal State system, as well as working with Senator Asia Wahab's office and launching a cast. And I think the one thing that was unique about our coalition there is we had hundreds of partners that were not just caste oppressed people. We had unions, we had the naacp, we had all of the bar associations that had to do with like decades of investment and relationship building outside of caste oppressed people. And so that work of building solidarity, making this visible, this is not about being insular and working only in our community. Many of our leaders have worked very tirelessly to connect, to build that connective tissue with caste and other social movements. And I think that's what really led to that first tier of wins. And again, we're in this very challenging moment right now where obviously the entire civil rights framework for all Americans is under attack. So we have to pivot yet again. But I have, you know, I see our organizers doing that even as we speak, you know, and you know, and now it's like really a moment about thinking about how do we link these conversations with caste, with other communities impacted by state violence. You know, whether we're talking about Palestinians who are still facing the ongoing punishing war against their autonomy and self determination to all communities who are being terrorized by ice. Right. You know, and it's a time where as we build these really valuable, powerful relations of solidarity, we will see the glimmers of the world that comes next. And part of that will include caste equity. Because of that, you know, collaborative vision of our solidarities are linked. You know, our visions of freedom are linked. And so we can't really leave anyone behind.
- [46:56]
Ajanta Subramanian
I think that that's a wonderful note to end on that we have to think about anti caste activism not as a sort of intra community issue, but as something that is intimately linked to broader conceptions of liberation. Right. Are there other such examples that you can point to of, of a, of an issue having these knock on effects?
- [47:27]
Tenmari Sande Rajan
I think that certainly, I think what we have seen in terms of social media and the utter disregard for democratic norms that tech founders have done with our democracies. Dalits were a unique canary in the coal mine, you know, and it was very interesting because like as there was this US Civil rights audit happening in the US blatant anti blackness and other racist Islamophobic content alongside Cast as content was happening in its largest market, the South Asian market. And here was a thing where Dalits were raising this issue in the company and it was shocking to American organizers to find out, you know, companies like Meta were saying one thing out of their mouth in North America and another thing in this larger market. And eventually the larger market is going to subsume whatever policy conversations that happen here. So here is like another example where the battles of caste oppressed people. They're really battles that are linked to the freedom of other communities. And you know, I think whether it's around workers protections, because this was also the, the big issue. I think when you look at the Bapst temple workers and, you know, Bapst temple workers and how they were treated by the Babs temple infrastructure undermines union jobs. You know, it undermines, you know, all workers and what it means to have a, you know, a healthy workplace and, you know, a workplace that you are not dehumanized and have rights. Right? So if we allow any member, any communities in our country to create containers of violence, worker exploitation and other things, it sets a precedent for what they do to other communities. And so that's why it has to stop here. It has to stop. And I think that's why we're so committed to ending this in our lifetime.
- [49:26]
Ajanta Subramanian
Then, Marie, thank you so much. This was an amazing conversation. You're a very inspiring person. Thanks to all our listeners for joining us. The cast pod can be accessed through our website, thecastpod.org and through our partner, the New Books Network. Sound editing and website design are managed by Siddharth Ravi. And the opening and closing theme music is from the song the Combat Breathing, written by Vijay Iyer and performed by Vijay Iyer. Linda May Han oh, and Tishan Sori. If you enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to share it on social media and send us your suggestions for Future episodes@thecastpodmail.com this is Ajantha Subramanian signing off. Until next time,