Danielle Gerard (3:09)

surrogate and it's all perfect until four

Danielle Gerard (3:11)

days before the baby is due and she disappears. And the book came from an idea I had and there's a scene in the book that sort of was the, the germ of the idea. And it, it grew into sort of the question of how well do we really know the people that we're closest to in the world and what's the lace that we will go to, to, you know, to get what we want?

Deidra Tyler Holtz (3:36)

Now, Pinky Swear revolves around secrets that have been kept for decades. How did you approach the challenge of showing how a single childhood moment can change multiple adult lives?

Danielle Gerard (3:52)

Yeah, well, I, you know, it's funny,

Danielle Gerard (3:53)

I think, you know, there's this time and I don't know how, you know,

Danielle Gerard (3:56)

I, I'm many, many years, decades away from being in high school as well.

Danielle Gerard (4:01)

But I do feel like there is

Danielle Gerard (4:02)

a sense when you're that age that you're old enough to make important decisions, right? You've done, you know, you're 17, 18, you consider yourself an adult. You really have a lot more confidence

Danielle Gerard (4:12)

in, in your, in your life experience

Danielle Gerard (4:15)

than you actually maybe should.

Danielle Gerard (4:17)

And I feel like these, so we, these, you know, as kids, we also then depend on other kids to make decisions.

Danielle Gerard (4:23)

You know, we, the people that we,

Danielle Gerard (4:25)

we confide in and we ask advice

Danielle Gerard (4:28)

from our other young adults, their other 17 and 18 year olds. We don't oftentimes turn to our parents.

Danielle Gerard (4:35)

We don't have necessarily other adults that we're close to. And so we can. It's really easy to sort of think you're making a good decision when you're not. And I feel like this happens to teenagers all the time from things like

Danielle Gerard (4:46)

having a drink and getting in a

Danielle Gerard (4:47)

car and driving or getting in a

Danielle Gerard (4:49)

car with somebody else or trying a drug or.

Danielle Gerard (4:51)

And I think to me it really is the sort of, it's the sliding

Danielle Gerard (4:55)

doors of our lives and those little tiny decisions we make sometimes without any thought at all that can really change our lives forever. And I'm fascinated by sort of.

Danielle Gerard (5:06)

And I think each of Us has

Danielle Gerard (5:07)

probably had moments where we somehow escaped, you know, a much a scary situation or much worse fate by just, you know, almost accidentally.

Danielle Gerard (5:17)

And I find. I just find the sort of what

Danielle Gerard (5:20)

ifs of that really interesting.

Deidra Tyler Holtz (5:24)

How much did the physical landscape dictate, the internal landscape of your characters?

Danielle Gerard (5:33)

You mean, like sort of the location

Danielle Gerard (5:34)

of where they grew up, the sort of geography?

Danielle Gerard (5:36)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, I think these are, you know, the. The three girls grew up in the Midwest. They're from Cleveland. And, you know, I lived in Ohio for a few years right after I was married.

Danielle Gerard (5:48)

And I came from California originally and went to school in New York and

Danielle Gerard (5:51)

lived in the Midwest.

Danielle Gerard (5:52)

And I'm actually now in Montana, so

Danielle Gerard (5:53)

sort of also the Midwest slash mountains. I do think that there is a

Danielle Gerard (5:58)

sense of, you know, there's different types of people in different places. So these, you know, Cleveland, while it's a big city, is very much a Midwestern city. People are very, you know, they're, they're. They're, you know, sense of family is

Danielle Gerard (6:12)

very important to them.

Danielle Gerard (6:13)

Sense of community is very important to them.

Danielle Gerard (6:16)

And I think for those girls, you know, that is.

Danielle Gerard (6:19)

There's some stability in the way that

Danielle Gerard (6:21)

they grew up, that they take on, you know, internally.

Danielle Gerard (6:24)

And yet also it's. It's a city full of lots of

Danielle Gerard (6:27)

different type of people.

Danielle Gerard (6:28)

And these three girls come from three different families, all with their sort of

Danielle Gerard (6:32)

own hardships, which I think is also

Danielle Gerard (6:34)

very, you know, common in, you know, in any kind of city.

Danielle Gerard (6:39)

And so I think, yeah, I think,

Danielle Gerard (6:41)

you know, the way they grew up in that town does absolutely have an impact on who they become as young people.

Danielle Gerard (6:48)

And then, of course, what happens to

Danielle Gerard (6:50)

them at that period has a huge impact on who they become as adults.

Deidra Tyler Holtz (6:54)

Now, in the storyline between the victims, they're often have, you know, you have a lot of blurs. What specific character did you find particularly very difficult to describe?

Danielle Gerard (7:11)

Well, yeah, I think each character was a little challenging in her own way. I think, obviously, for me, it was, you know, Lexi's the protagonist. It's her story, and she is somebody who. The way I work, I'm not somebody who can outline a book. So I have to. I get to the very end of the first draft, and by that point I kind of have a sense of

Danielle Gerard (7:31)

who the characters are and what the story is.

Danielle Gerard (7:34)

And then I go back and sort

Danielle Gerard (7:35)

of, you know, I really deepen the

Danielle Gerard (7:37)

character insights and straighten out places where the character seems.

Danielle Gerard (7:42)

Is inconsistent in that first draft.

Danielle Gerard (7:44)

And so for me, it took a long time to understand Lexi. And I think she's very much a

Danielle Gerard (7:48)

product of her upbringing.

Danielle Gerard (7:50)

Her parents are both professionals, very stoic. She's an only child. Her parents. Her mother was pregnant with it and

Danielle Gerard (7:57)

son and lost him, you know, at birth. And so all the pressures of being sort of the perfect child fall on her.

Danielle Gerard (8:07)

And there's no sort of. She doesn't get a lot of positive reinforcements for the things she does, even though she tries very hard to be, you know, the best student, the best child. And I think it took me a

Danielle Gerard (8:19)

long time to understand sort of how

Danielle Gerard (8:21)

she even ends up in a situation where she lets, you know, she brings her best friend back from childhood, invites her to be her surrogate without doing a lot more due diligence. And I think, to me, it makes sense based on the fact that this is the first thing that Lex has ever really wanted in her whole life, that she hasn't had somebody sort of

Danielle Gerard (8:41)

either give her or hasn't just fallen in her lap.

Danielle Gerard (8:43)

She married an older man.

Danielle Gerard (8:45)

He already had a home and a career. And so she moved from the Pacific

Danielle Gerard (8:49)

Northwest, the Seattle area, to Denver to live in his home and help raise his kids happily. But it wasn't something that she sort of had to work for. And then all of a sudden, you know, she wants. She decides she wants a baby. And that is something she has to

Danielle Gerard (9:01)

do 100% on her own.

Danielle Gerard (9:03)

And when Mara vanishes, that is something

Danielle Gerard (9:06)

she has to figure out 100% on her own.

Danielle Gerard (9:09)

And while her husband is supportive in

Danielle Gerard (9:11)

a sense that he, you know, he.

Danielle Gerard (9:13)

He supports her decision to do this, he's not involved.

Deidra Tyler Holtz (9:16)

Now, what was the most surprising piece of research that you uncovered while mapping out this investigative side of this case?

Danielle Gerard (9:26)

You know, it's interesting because I think one of the things I did a lot of research about was the process

Danielle Gerard (9:33)

of surrogacy, because it's quite well defined in real terms. If you were to hire a surrogate, there's a surrogacy contract, and there's agencies that manage the relationship.

Danielle Gerard (9:46)

So there's no sort of, you know,

Danielle Gerard (9:48)

situation where something like this would likely happen in real life. But because, you know, and the final thing about researching for fiction is that you do all the research and then

Danielle Gerard (9:57)

you break all the rules. That's, you know, we.

Danielle Gerard (9:59)

Because, of course, Lexi trusts Mara. She trusts her like family.

Danielle Gerard (10:03)

And so she doesn't go through the process of a. Of a surrogate contract. And, you know, and along the way, I always find myself surprised by the research I do. In terms of, you know, I wanted to understand.

Danielle Gerard (10:15)

I put them, I put, I put them in Philadelphia.

Danielle Gerard (10:17)

And so I, I did a lot

Danielle Gerard (10:19)

of research about the city and the history. Most of that doesn't even end up

Danielle Gerard (10:22)

being in the book.

Danielle Gerard (10:24)

But it's my way of understanding the world so that when I depict it, I can decide which things I'm going

Danielle Gerard (10:30)

to change for the sake of the story.

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Deidra Tyler Holtz (11:59)

Now tell the audience about the title of your book.

Danielle Gerard (12:04)

Yes, Pinky swear. So you know, pinky swear to me and we actually didn't pinky swear technically,

Danielle Gerard (12:11)

but when I was growing up, but

Danielle Gerard (12:13)

we did a lot of things as being, you know, saying things like I

Danielle Gerard (12:15)

swear I will whatever, I swear I

Danielle Gerard (12:18)

won't tell anyone or I swear. And that was our and that was sort of the way of we promised one another that we would keep secrets, that we would, you know, be supportive of one another.

Danielle Gerard (12:27)

And

Danielle Gerard (12:30)

in my mind the pinky swear is that first of all, to me it's a very female thing to do right. It's a very young way of saying, I trust you implicitly. And so when I was thinking about titles and about how to express what this book was about, to me it was about sort of the ways in which we absolutely trust people, particularly people that we've known for our whole lives. And it just. It happened. It came up, and I was writing a scene, and it was, you know, it was this sort of thing where one of them said pinky's throat. And I thought, okay, that's the title of the book. So I sort of stumbled upon it.

Deidra Tyler Holtz (13:09)

As a writer, how did you decide exactly when to pull back the curtain on a secret? Did you use specific structural methods to ensure that the breadcrumbs weren't too obvious? How did you go about that?

Danielle Gerard (13:26)

Well, you know, it's funny.

Danielle Gerard (13:27)

I. I'm such an instinctive, Instinctive writer, and I, I instinctual writer. I've not ever been somebody who was able to successfully map out a story. So for me, it's about, you know, it's a sense of, you know, how much. How much tension can the reader sustain before you have to give him or her a little break, right before you sort of have to relieve that. And we know, we. We've watched those TV shows or read those books where you're. It's just a little bit too long and you feel almost like you're being tortured by. By sort of the. The way the stakes are. Are growing and the discomfort that you're in as a, you know, as a

Danielle Gerard (14:05)

participant in the story.

Danielle Gerard (14:06)

And so for me, it's. That's how it works. It's like, okay, we're not quite there yet. We're not quite there yet. Okay, now we need to. We need to learn something that opens up a different door to this story and. And lets the reader in on this. So this secret which will then, hopefully, if you're doing it right, make the reader think, oh, my gosh, that's a surprise.

Danielle Gerard (14:27)

Now, where does that lead us?

Danielle Gerard (14:28)

And then you're back to sort of

Danielle Gerard (14:30)

building again before the next reveal.

Danielle Gerard (14:32)

And they tend to be sort of. They get, you know, slower in the beginning, and then you.

Danielle Gerard (14:37)

You sort of ramp them up as you get towards that, you know, big

Danielle Gerard (14:41)

reveal scene in any story.

Danielle Gerard (14:44)

But it's just a set. It's sort of a sense.

Danielle Gerard (14:45)

I do it a little bit just by feel.

Deidra Tyler Holtz (14:48)

Small towns have lots of memories. How does the love of a small town, the stories that people tell about their past, shape the current generations in terms of the pinky Square.

Danielle Gerard (15:04)

Well, I mean, I think, you know, in this case the small town is just their problem. You know, sort of the way the little bit of their hometown that they see.

Danielle Gerard (15:13)

Right, Because Cleveland's, you know, it's quite large. But when you're in high school, of course, everything's feeling. Feel smaller because you're only really, you only really experience a small part of, of that city. Right. It's your high school and potentially maybe a few high schools around you. And I think, you know, I think it, I think it does color. I mean, for sure there's, you know, there's socioeconomic ways in which we sort of see the world and these girls all grow up and it's, there's a very, where they live is a very middle class community. They only know what they know. And I think it's a sheltered environment for all of us at that age or most of us, right. Unless you really have a unusual upbringing.

Danielle Gerard (15:53)

You really are.

Danielle Gerard (15:55)

We're in a little box of our, you know, of where our parents live and how they raise us and the school we go to and, and the friends we have. And it's, it's a bit like having blinders on. And then when you leave that environment, those blinders get removed. And for the third girl in their group, of course, Kate, you know, she died when she was 17, so she, she never lived anything else. And for Lexi, her shutters weren't so broadly opened either because she lived in this sort of a little bit of a bubble with her husband and his kids. But for Mara, Mara's life was, you know, she had a lot more difficult, you know, experiences with the world. And so she really was some. She really is somebody who has had

Danielle Gerard (16:39)

a lot more, you know, a lot

Danielle Gerard (16:42)

more hardship and a lot more exposure

Danielle Gerard (16:44)

to harder elements of life.

Deidra Tyler Holtz (16:46)

Now, to stay in a town like the one you described in the book, you often have to play the game. What do you think is the ultimate social cost for the characters who decided to break the town's unwritten rules?

Danielle Gerard (17:03)

Well, I mean, I think, I think obviously the way it works, right, is that there's expectations placed on us, particularly I think on women, about the things that, you know, you're supposed to not

Danielle Gerard (17:14)

talk about or talk about the ways you're supposed to act.

Danielle Gerard (17:18)

And I think, you know, I think when you break those rules, you do, of course, experience being outcasts from some

Danielle Gerard (17:27)

groups and in some, for some people, that is a relief to sort of

Danielle Gerard (17:32)

be able to speak your truth and

Danielle Gerard (17:34)

it's worth the cost.

Danielle Gerard (17:34)

And for Some people it's not. And I. I suspect, you know, and

Danielle Gerard (17:38)

it's sort of unknown at the end

Danielle Gerard (17:40)

of the story what the impact of

Danielle Gerard (17:42)

what Lexi has done and pursued will be on her life in Denver. But, yeah, I imagine she will experience some versions of. There will be people who don't understand

Danielle Gerard (17:54)

why she's done what she does, you know, she's done.

Danielle Gerard (17:56)

And hopefully, you know, her family isn't at those people, but it's sort of left. Unless it's unspoken at the end. I think it's. I'm leaving it to the reader to decide how that works out.

Deidra Tyler Holtz (18:08)

Now, chapter 14 was my favorite chapter. Can you give the audience a little taste of chapter 14?

Danielle Gerard (18:17)

Okay. I love that I have no idea

Danielle Gerard (18:20)

what chapter 14 is.

Danielle Gerard (18:22)

I'm not sure I could get my copy of the book and take a look, but.

Deidra Tyler Holtz (18:27)

April 2008.

Danielle Gerard (18:29)

April 2008. Well, this is what was funny about this book was getting the opportunity to go back to those moments of the girls when they were young women. And they have this shared notebook

Danielle Gerard (18:46)

they basically have.

Danielle Gerard (18:47)

The way that they communicate with one

Danielle Gerard (18:49)

another is they have a spiral notebook

Danielle Gerard (18:51)

that is labeled with that year's science class. And in this case, it's physics.

Danielle Gerard (18:57)

And at that. In this chapter, they are basically talking about. It's. You know, they're. They're eight weeks from the end of their senior year of high school. And, you know, I remember that being this. You know, you just feel like you can taste the freedom.

Danielle Gerard (19:09)

It's so close and. And yet they're holding them. They're holding on to a lot of building tensions. Each of them has a lot of things going on. And so, you know, there's. Each of them has a secret that they're keeping in that moment. And the idea is, you know, there's sort of this question of will it all fall apart before they get to graduation?

Deidra Tyler Holtz (19:29)

Now, even though this is a fiction book, what message would you like the reader to leave with once they finish this book?

Danielle Gerard (19:38)

Oh, gosh. You know, I'm not somebody who writes with sort of, like, you know, messaging, but one of the things that I sort of felt like I learned from, you know, in the book, and I hope readers will also take away, is sort of the idea of, you know, redemption. It's that. It's that even when the people closest to us make, you know, do things that feel like betrayal or lies, that there has to be some way to. If not, you know, forgive, at least move on. Because I think that, you know, in the case of Lexi, when Mara disappeared. I think it felt impossible that her best friend would have done something hurtful to her.

Danielle Gerard (20:17)

And yet, you know, as the book goes on, you learn that Mara has

Danielle Gerard (20:20)

made mistakes, and she, you know, perhaps this is one of them.

Danielle Gerard (20:24)

You know.

Danielle Gerard (20:24)

You know, this story, you can decide

Danielle Gerard (20:26)

when you read it. But I think it's about understanding that

Danielle Gerard (20:31)

we're going to put ourselves in harm's way to be close to people, and there are going to be people in our lives who hurt us and betray

Danielle Gerard (20:38)

us, whether they do it intentionally or unintentionally. And it's, in my mind, it's worth the risk because the option is the

Danielle Gerard (20:45)

other option is to not ever be close to anybody. And that doesn't really seem like a way to live.

Deidra Tyler Holtz (20:51)

Well, I've taken up enough of your time. Can you tell us about the next projects you were working on?

Danielle Gerard (20:58)

Well, thank you, deeja. I am.

Danielle Gerard (21:01)

I'm working on actually, a couple books at once, which is new for me.

Danielle Gerard (21:04)

I'm working on another thriller that is set in a small town.

Danielle Gerard (21:11)

I'm in Montana.

Danielle Gerard (21:12)

I've never set a book in Montana, and I would say it's possible this

Danielle Gerard (21:15)

book is set in Montana.

Danielle Gerard (21:16)

I don't know that the reader will ever. I'm not going to necessarily identify it,

Danielle Gerard (21:20)

but it is about. It's about a long marriage and a small town and a woman who's, you know, lived a lot of her life in the town that was maybe not totally comfortable for her and put a

Danielle Gerard (21:34)

lot of her own self on hold to raise her children. And it's sort of what happens when that process is done and she sort

Danielle Gerard (21:41)

of recognizes what it is she really wants. And then I'm working on something that's sort of speculative, which is totally new for me. I've never done ing like this. And it's also about a woman in her, you know, I'm in my 50s, so for now, I'm so interested in. In the. In the ways in which we are judge ourselves and put ourselves second. And also, you know, why we do that and how important it is for us, how important family is and sort of what we will do for family kind of at any cost. So that's sort of the territory I'm interested in exploring at this stage of my career.

Deidra Tyler Holtz (22:19)

Well, we'll be looking forward to all of those new books. And thank you so much for being on the podcast. And we've been talking with Danielle Gerard, the author of Pinky Swear. Thank you.

Danielle Gerard (22:32)

Thank you so much.

Judah Sam (22:33)

Judah Sam.