Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Danny Orbach, "Plots Against Hitler" (Mariner, 2016)
Date: October 19, 2025
Host: New Books
Guest: Dr. Danny Orbach, Hebrew University of Jerusalem

Overview: Main Theme

This episode features a detailed interview with Dr. Danny Orbach about his book "Plots Against Hitler." The discussion focuses on the German military and civilian resistance to Adolf Hitler, the myths and realities surrounding conspiracies to assassinate Hitler, the intricate dynamics of resistance networks, and the moral complexities of those involved. Orbach aims to present a nuanced narrative that goes beyond the popular simplified portrayals, drawing from extensive multi-language archival research.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Dr. Orbach’s Background and Motivation

• Orbach began research on German resistance to Hitler during high school and developed the project over 15 years (01:40-02:37).
• His goal was to reconcile the gap between popular narratives and historical facts about the anti-Hitler resistance (03:17-04:26).
• Quote: "There is something more into it than just an interesting story...I saw a glaring gap between the way the story is usually being told and the raw facts as I understood them." — Dr. Orbach (03:32)

Dominant Narratives and Correcting Misconceptions

• Popular accounts often depict resistance conspirators as opportunists or antisemitic war criminals trying to save themselves once defeat was apparent (04:33-05:35).
• Orbach argues for a more complex understanding of motivations—not all can be neatly categorized as heroes or villains.

Archival Research & Unique Sources

• Utilized sources in Russian, uncovering little-known conspiracies and providing insight into the functioning of clandestine networks (06:17-07:59).
• Quote: "So, in other words, there are so many fictional conspiracy stories nowadays. One of my goals was to show how a real conspiracy worked." (07:17)

Why the Army? The Nature of Opposition in Nazi Germany

• The Nazi regime’s police state crushed open opposition; effective resistance could come only from those not under immediate suspicion, i.e., members of the conservative right and the army (08:29-10:56).
• Quote: "Resisting your own government is way more difficult because you don't enjoy popular support. Therefore, the people who could resist Hitler were only people that the Nazi regime did not expect resistance from." (09:37)

Early Catalysts for Resistance in the Army

• Series of 1938 scandals, including the sacking of senior officers, created networks initially motivated by loyalty but soon transformed by anti-Nazi leaders like Colonel Hans Oster into true resistance (11:09-13:07).

Lone Wolves vs. Organized Conspiracy

• Lone wolf attempts, such as Georg Elser’s 1939 bombing, nearly succeeded but lacked reliable intelligence and support (13:52-16:26).
• There were many rumors about assassination plots, but most lacked evidence; rumor-mongering often led to increased security (16:52-19:05).
• Quote: "There is an inverse proportion between the security of a plot and your ability to control it and its effectiveness." (15:15)
• Hitler’s real protection was his erratic habits and constant plan changes, making bomb plots extremely difficult (19:13-22:36).

Structure and Evolution of Resistance Networks

• The main underground that attempted the July 20, 1944, coup formed in 1938 and evolved through three stages:
  • Oster’s Era: Small, tight-knit group (24:24).
  • Tresckow’s Era: Connected, loosely coordinated cliques, reliant on “brokers” to connect groups (24:24-29:55).
  • Stauffenberg’s Era: Highly centralized, charismatic leadership, rapid recruitment but at risk if the leader fell (24:24-29:55).
• Recruitment often leveraged family/friend ties; “revolutionary mutation” occurred when legal ties were transformed into clandestine ones (36:07-39:47).

Risk and Security within the Conspiracy

• Close calls in 1943 nearly had the entire network exposed when key connectors were arrested or nearly so (29:55-31:17).

The Gestapo’s Mixed Record

• Contrary to postwar conspiracy theories, the Gestapo focused more on the left; cultural norms in the army discouraged informing, making military conspiracies harder to uncover (32:08-35:44).
• Civilian conspirators were under much heavier surveillance.

Attitudes toward Jews and Nazi Policy

• Most conspirators were horrified by the Holocaust and opposed mass violence, though their attitudes toward Jews varied—some advocated abolition of antisemitic laws, others saw non-violent discrimination as acceptable (39:47-41:44).
• Quote: "Generally the officers, this conspirators, both civilian and military, were very much opposed to the Holocaust, to the mass, to the mass massacres, to the violence against Jews..." (40:18)

The July 20 Plot: Anatomy and Failure

• Plan: Kill Hitler (bomb by Stauffenberg); cut communications; military coup throughout Germany.
• Failure reasons: Hitler survived (bomb moved); plan overly centralized; generals chose Hitler once survival was known (45:33-47:31).
• Quote: "Too much was dependent on Stauffenberg personal and this is a really a point which I think is worth emphasizing." (47:36)
• Host notes: July 20, 1944, was the "last elections in Nazi Germany"—the generals had to choose their side (47:36-49:12).

Aftermath and Long-Term Impact

• Executions followed; no further uprising possible.
• Ironically, the failed coup prevented a “stab in the back” legend that might have undermined postwar German democracy, but at the cost of many more deaths by prolonging the war (49:24-51:56).

Legacy in Postwar Germany and Beyond

• Initially, the July 20 plotters were widely seen as traitors, especially by military veterans (52:14).
• From the late 1950s, official attitudes shifted, recognizing resistance members as heroes in establishment circles.
• In the 1960s, leftist voices criticized resistors as reactionaries or antisemites.
• Contemporary Germany generally honors the conspirators, though they remain controversial on the political margins; recently, some Polish commentators resurrect criticisms for political reasons (51:56-56:07).

Concluding Lessons & Takeaways

• Military training does not confer conspiratorial skill; resistance requires speed and secrecy over military planning (56:25-56:44).
• Both demonization and lionization of conspirators are problematic; they were “knights in tarnished armor,” morally ambiguous yet heroic (56:44-59:49).
• The jealous intertwining of universal morality and patriotism inspired the conspirators (59:49).
• Best moment for resistance is before a dictatorship consolidates power: “...the best time to resist regimes such as Nazi Germany is before they come to power, not after.” (59:49)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On misperceptions of resistance:
  "[Popular histories claim] the resistors were opportunistic German officers, antisemitic war criminals who tried to jump from the boat to escape the Nazi boat at the last moment...this narrative did not fit the facts that I saw." — Orbach (04:33)

• On resistance networks:
  "All of the three modes I described advantages and disadvantages. And it was always a trade of trading one for the other." — Orbach (29:29)

• On the fate of the July 20 plot:
  "When the generals throughout the Nazi empire discovered that Hitler is alive, they virtually had to choose...and when they discovered that Hitler is alive, almost all of them voted Adolf." (48:28)

• On moral ambiguity:
  "Within the real world, heroes, and I'm not ashamed to use the term, are not knights in a shining armor. They are knights in a tarnished armor...And I think that's what makes them important." (57:44)

• On the lesson of timing:
  "The best time to resist regimes such as Nazi Germany is before they come to power, not after." (59:49)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Orbach’s Background and Motivation: 01:31-03:17
• Challenging Popular Narratives: 03:17-05:35
• Archival Research & Russian Sources: 06:17-07:59
• Structure of Army Resistance & Early Scandals: 08:29-13:07
• Lone Wolfs, Security, and Rumors: 13:52-19:05
• Hitler’s Personal Security Methods: 19:13-22:36
• Evolution of Resistance Networks: 24:24-29:55
• Gestapo’s Focus & Army Norms: 32:08-35:44
• Recruitment Tactics and Social Ties: 36:07-39:47
• Attitudes toward Jews and Nazi Policy: 39:47-41:44
• Stauffenberg’s Background and Motivation: 42:24-45:33
• The July 20 Plot, Execution, and Failure: 45:58-49:12
• Aftermath and "Stab in the Back" Legend: 49:24-51:56
• Postwar Legacy in Germany: 52:14-56:07
• Concluding Lessons: 56:25-59:49

Final Notes

Book Recommendation:
The host highly recommends "Plots Against Hitler" for its nuanced, well-researched treatment of a complex subject.

Future Work:
Dr. Orbach is working on "Fugitives," a history of Nazi spies during the Cold War.

Tone & Style:
Both Orbach and the host maintain a thoughtful, analytical tone, seeking to illuminate historical realities rather than celebrate or condemn uncritically.

This summary distills key arguments, research findings, and memorable insights from the episode, offering valuable context and understanding for listeners and readers unfamiliar with Dr. Orbach’s work or the detailed history of the German resistance to Hitler.