Danya Ruttenberg, "On Repentance and Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World" (Beacon Press, 2022)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Danya Ruttenberg, "On Repentance and Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Renee Garfinkel
Guest: Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg
Date: October 4, 2025
Duration: [01:30–31:47] (content portion)

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Overview

This episode features a conversation between host Renee Garfinkel and author Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg about Ruttenberg’s acclaimed book, On Repentance and Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World. The discussion delves deep into how ancient Jewish frameworks—particularly the teachings of Maimonides—can offer guidance for personal and collective healing in response to harm. The episode addresses why and how repentance, apology, and real repair must be central in relationships and institutions, and how these steps are distinct from forgiveness.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Write about Repentance Now?

• Context: Ruttenberg was inspired by the public’s response to the aftermath of the #MeToo movement, noticing inadequate apologies and rushed calls for forgiveness.
• Maimonides’s framework: Ruttenberg highlighted the need for a deeper, more structured process of repentance for harm doers, as opposed to superficial apologies.
  • "There was this framework that demanded work on the harm doer’s part instead of just forgiveness by anybody and everybody." (Danya Ruttenberg, 04:21)

2. Defining Repentance, Forgiveness, and Atonement

• Repentance: A restorative, introspective process (teshuva) aimed at returning to one’s best self by repairing harm and restoring integrity.
  • "Repentance, chuva in Hebrew, is about returning to where you should have been before you erred… It’s about coming back to who you should have been all along." (Ruttenberg, 05:35–06:15)
• Forgiveness: Separate path, strictly the prerogative of the person harmed.
  • Ruttenberg distinguishes between emotional (slicha) and transactional (mechila) forgiveness:
    • "Forgiveness is the victim business, and it's their choice. And you can heal without forgiving." (Ruttenberg, 08:00)
• Not Owed: Forgiveness cannot be demanded—harm doers are “not automagically owed” forgiveness.
  • “You’d never have to forgive your abuser, ever, ever, ever.” (Ruttenberg, 09:27)

3. The Power Dynamics of Forgiveness

• Ruttenberg connects cultural pressures for victims to forgive with power imbalances:
  • "Harm caused is so often about power. And conversations about forgiveness are often about power." (Ruttenberg, 09:45)

4. Admitting Harm—Why It’s Difficult

• Cognitive dissonance with self-perception makes admitting wrongdoing hard.
  • "We are the protagonist of our own stories… When we cause harm, there's a dissonance in the story.” (Ruttenberg, 11:18)
• Crossing that gap requires facing uncomfortable truths about oneself.

5. Five Steps of Repentance (Summarized)

• Based on Maimonides’s teachings as interpreted by Ruttenberg:

  1. Acknowledge the harm publicly. (13:01–13:31)
  2. Begin to change—address root causes. (13:56)
  3. Make amends as requested by the harmed party. (14:29–15:44)
  4. Offer an apology—only after the first three steps. (16:19)
  5. Demonstrate changed behavior in similar future situations. (implied throughout)
  • “If Louis CK were genuinely sincere, here’s what we would know to look for in terms of his steps… There are five steps.” (Ruttenberg, 03:40)

6. What Makes an Apology Sincere

• Ruttenberg rejects formulaic apologies; what matters is the depth and process underlying them.
  • “I am not one that is going to come and say if you say these words it’s sincere… The thing is to do the work all the way through.” (Ruttenberg, 18:17)
• Public acknowledgment invites accountability and community support for change.
  • “If you try to hide what you did, then it’s harder to change.” (Ruttenberg, 19:03)

7. Forgiveness—When (and Whether) to Offer It

• The harmed party’s readiness matters, and it’s not always appropriate or required.
  • “The harm doer…should not make their own recovery more important than the victim's safety.” (Ruttenberg, 20:30)
• The harmed party can heal and move forward without forgiving.

8. Context and Explaining Behavior

• Rationalizing harm (e.g., “I was hungry”) may or may not be relevant, depending on context.
  • “If I, the harm doer, have been doing my listening correctly, I can probably discern what context is going to be welcome… and what’s going to be feeling like an excuse.” (Ruttenberg, 24:33)

9. Organizational and Institutional Repentance

• Shared and Hierarchical Responsibility: All members, especially those with power, have obligations when an institution causes harm.
  • “Every organization is made up of many members… the more power a person has, the more obligation they have.” (Ruttenberg, 25:25)
• Organizations often default to avoiding accountability—sometimes even scapegoating or silencing victims.
  • “You have institutional betrayal piled on the original hurt.” (Ruttenberg, 27:13)
• Models for Change: Some institutions (e.g., the University of Michigan Medical Center) are making positive strides in accountability.

10. Repentance as a Spiritual Practice

• Ruttenberg regards the process itself as an ongoing spiritual discipline, woven into Jewish tradition yet universally useful.
  • “It’s an extraordinary muscle that you can work. And like any muscle, it gets stronger the more you work it.” (Ruttenberg, 28:23)
  • Repent “one day before your death… you should do this repentance work every single day.” (Ruttenberg, 29:08)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “There was this framework that demanded work on the harm doer’s part instead of just forgiveness by anybody and everybody.” (Ruttenberg, 04:21)
• “Repentance...is about returning to yourself, to God if that’s a framework that works for you... doing everything in your power to repair what must be repaired.” (Ruttenberg, 05:38)
• “Forgiveness is the victim business, and it's their choice. And you can heal without forgiving.” (Ruttenberg, 08:00)
• “You’d never have to forgive your abuser, ever, ever, ever.” (Ruttenberg, 09:27)
• “We are the protagonist of our own stories… When we cause harm, there’s a dissonance in the story.” (Ruttenberg, 11:18)
• “The amends have to come from the harmed party...if you’re deciding for the harmed party what will fix it for them... you’re not honoring their agency.” (Ruttenberg, 14:22)
• “If you try to hide what you did, then it’s harder to change.” (Ruttenberg, 19:03)
• “If I, the harm doer, have been doing my listening correctly, I can probably discern what context is going to be welcome.” (Ruttenberg, 24:33)
• “Every organization is made up of many members… the more power a person has, the more obligation they have.” (Ruttenberg, 25:25)
• “It’s an extraordinary muscle that you can work. And like any muscle, it gets stronger the more you work it.” (Ruttenberg, 28:23)
• “I truly, with all of my heart, believe that the work of repentance is a gift.” (Ruttenberg, 30:01)

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Suggested Timestamps for Reference

• [03:01] - Why focus on repentance and Maimonides in the current era?
• [05:23] - Defining repentance, forgiveness, and atonement.
• [09:35] - The power dynamics at play in forgiveness.
• [11:07] - Why it’s so hard to admit causing harm.
• [13:01] - Steps of making amends; why apology comes late in the process.
• [18:17] - Elements of a real, sincere apology.
• [20:04] - Forgiveness from the victim’s perspective.
• [21:47] - When context and backstory do or do not matter.
• [24:51] - Institutional obligations and failures.
• [28:23] - Repentance as a spiritual practice.
• [30:01] - Closing message: “repentance is a gift.”

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Final Message

Ruttenberg urges that repentance, far from being punitive or shame-based, is a practice of love, connection, and integrity. Its true purpose is growth: for individuals, communities, and entire institutions. Real repair is not about instant absolution, but about honest work—a gift to ourselves and to one another.

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For more from Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg:
Visit lifeisasacredtext.com
Book: On Repentance and Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World (Beacon Press, 2022)

Transcript

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[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

Welcome to the Van Leer Institute series on ideas. I'm your host, Renee Garfinkel. This episode in our Healing series will explore the healing from a religious point of view with our guest, Rabbi Danya Rutenberg, an award winning author, spiritual leader and public intellectual whose voice bridges ancient wisdom with modern challenges. Her latest book on Repentance and Making Amends in an Unapologetic World received the National Jewish Book Award and the American Library Association's Sophie Brody Honor. It's a timely, provocative and deeply humane guide to confronting harm and taking responsibility. Drawing on Maimonides 12th century Jewish framework for repentance, Rutenberg challenges the way we think about justice, apology, accountability and healing, whether in our most personal relationships or in the fabric of national life. She joins us today to explore how traditional ethical systems might help us navigate to our very modern crises. Danya Rutenberg, welcome to the show.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Hi.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

Danya, what drew you to write about repentance at this moment in time and why center maimonides in a conversation meant for both religious and secular audiences?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

In 2017, I was online having a lot of conversations with folks in the wake of MeToo. There had been all sorts of harm doers who had been named as abusers. And, and they'd put out these statements that it seemed very clear that the publicists had written and sort of very perfunctory, very superficial. And there were all sorts of conversations about how do we know when to allow Matt Lauer or Louis C.K. back into the fold and when can we as the public forgive him? And, and I had basically written up something. Since Maimonides is my guide, I'm a Jew, and he's our guy on repentance and repair. If Louis CK Were genuinely sincere, here's what we would know to look for in terms of his steps. There are steps for repentance and repair. There are five steps. As I read Maimonides, you know, you own the harm that you cause, you begin to change, then there's immense, then there's apology, then there's beginning to make different choices, and here's what would be manifest to us. And I started to engage with people about it, and watching the general public respond, just, you know, it kind of blew people's minds on Twitter that there was this framework that demanded work on the harm doers part instead of just forgiveness by anybody and everybody, and that we would assume that the forgiveness is only from the victim and not from anybody. And that's when I realized that Maimonides was offering something really essential that was missing from our culture at large.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

Well, let's back up a little and start with some definitions. How do you define the difference between repentance, forgiveness and atonement?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Ha ha ha. So the work of, well, so repentance, chuva in Hebrew is about returning to where you should have been before you erred. It's about returning to yourself, to God. If that's a framework that works for you in integrity, in wholeness, and doing everything in your power to repair what must be repaired to the person that you harmed, assuming this is interpersonal harm, and just sew up that hole in the universe insofar as that's possible. And that might be a lifelong project, because there are some harms that are very, very great, you know, and it's about coming back to who you should have been all along.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

Kind of returning to your best self.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Yes. And that's the work of the harm doer. And you know, that's about keeping your eyes on your own test booklet, so to speak. Forgiveness is something that the harmed party can do and only the harmed party can do. There are two kinds of forgiveness that we talk about in Jewish literature. There's slicha, which is the Kind of warm, fuzzy, emotional, reconnecting kind of forgiveness. But in the literature, we really talk about the other kind, which is mechila, which is a much more straightforward clearing of the books.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

You did something harmful to me. You did the things you needed to do to clear accounts.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Great.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

We're good. We can move forward, right? It doesn't have to be warm and fuzzy. It just means that we're fine. And it doesn't even mean that we need to be friends again or be in each other's lives. It just means that this situation is resolved and someone can do all of the work of repentance needed and they're not owed forgiveness. Maimonides teaches that we're not required, we're supposed to not be cruel and unnecessarily withhold forgiveness. But that does not mean that the harm doer is automagically owed forgiveness, particularly if they're not doing the work in any sort of real or sincere or deep way. Now, I think people often think if they come a quarter of the way to where they're supposed to be, that they're supposed to be given flowers and sparkles for just showing up to the party, even if they're not doing all of the work. And that's not how it works in our tradition at all. So, you know, forgiveness and repentance are really separate tracks. And forgiveness is the victim business, and it's their choice. And you can heal without forgiving. You can take care of yourself without forgiving, you know, and whether or not you forgive is your own own business. And the Jerusalem Talmud teaches that one who slanders never gains forgiveness. So if you do something that can never be fully repaired, you're definitely not owed forgiveness. So you'd never have to forgive your abuser ever, ever, ever.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

What about people who've been told very often that they have to forgive?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

That is a so many pieces of the way all of these conversations about repentance and repair and forgiveness function in Jewish culture and in wider secular culture, and certainly in Christian culture, are about power. Harm caused is so often about power. And conversations about forgiveness are often about power. Because if I forgive you, then we can just have everything go back to how it was, and nothing has to change. So the question about who's asking who to forgive, what for, what thing really needs to be. You know, that's a moment to really look at a power analysis and to say, if I withhold forgiveness in this moment, what is the demand for change?

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

Okay, let's talk about the change. Because really, it's the perpetrator. It's all of us. When we do something wrong, intentionally or unintentionally, that causes harm or hurt to someone else. What makes it so hard for people to admit they've caused harm?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

I think there are a couple of things on the individual level. Listen, all of us, myself included, have this story about how we're the good guy, right? We are the protagonist of our own stories, and we're the heroes and we mean well. We want to be the good guy. And so when we caused harm and all of us have been harmed, are bystanders to harm and cause harm, right? Every single one of us. So when we cause harm, there's a dissonance in the story. You know, I can't be the harm doer. I'm the good guy. And acknowledging that harm requires us to cross this bridge between the story we've been telling ourselves about who we are and facing reality as it has been. And it's a very, very painful bridge to cross. And it's not fun, it's not comfortable. It often involves engaging with, whether it's painful stuff about our childhood or, you know, some of our own baggage in other ways. But, you know, it's often very, very laden with stuff. The stories we've been told about what we can or can't do, whatever. There's often a lot of baggage in crossing that bridge, in engaging with that cognitive dissonance that, yes, okay, we did harm today.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

Okay? Once we, once we recognize that we've caused harm, what does a sincere apology look like? And what makes one fall short?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

So there's a reason that apology is the fourth step in this process and that it's not the first. I think people love to rush to I'm sorry right away because that feels like. And I'm going to fix it and it'll be over with. Step one is acknowledging the harm that was caused, owning it fully to at least as many people as witnessed it.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

If you said something racist in a staff meeting, then everybody who was there needs to hear you own it. And it's not nice and it's not comfortable, but here we are, and we have to reckon with the privilege that we have. And, and, and.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Step two is starting to change. And whether that's about therapy or education in a place where we had some ignorance, or whether that's about getting help and, you know, seeking a sponsor, whether that's, you know, what are the things you need to do so that you don't keep doing the thing again. And again. And it's gonna look different depending on the situation. But you know, if it's an organizational harm, what policies need to change, right? Something needs to change. And that's as I intimated, you know, sometimes power is a very significant piece of this. And then step three is amends. And those amends have to come from the harmed party. Because again, if you're the harm doer and you're deciding for the harmed party what will fix it for them, you're once again making them into an object and not honoring their subjecthood and their agency. And there's so much learning that happens. You know, there's learning that happens when you acknowledge the harm that you caused. There's learning that happens in the starting to change. Right? Oh, now I'm starting to understand these places of ignorance that I held. Then when you ask for amends and you discover that they actually don't want you to pay the doctor's bill, they actually want something totally different. Oh, and then by the time you've gotten to step four, you're a different person, right? You have done all of this learning, you've gotten the harm that you've caused. The memo has started to sink in a little bit. You're starting to see the person that you hurt in a new way. You're starting to understand the injury.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

And so are you saying that the internal transformation is a growing empathy for what it was like to be the victim of what you've done?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Yes. And so by the time you get to the apology, it's a much more open hearted conversation because you actually get what you did and you're able to see the person that you hurt as a person in a totally different way.

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[Host Renee Garfinkel]

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[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

And so what elements need to be in a sincere apology? Assuming someone has done that internal work and recognizes what it might have been like to be the victim of their action, what's the difference between a sincere apology, a corrective, a reparative apology, and one that falls short?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

You know, I don't, I am not one that is going to come and say, you know, if you say these words it's sincere and if you say these words it's not sincere. I don't think that's the thing. I don't have. Here's the apology formula. I know you see these on social media sometimes, but I think the thing is to do the work all the way through of trying to be accountable for the harm that you caused through acknowledging as publicly as possible what you did, which is about asking the community to support you in changing.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

If you try to hide what you did, then it's harder to change. I think that's why Maimonides says that it's praiseworthy to be public about confessing your harm. And you say, guys, I'm not liking who I've been. I want to go on this journey of becoming different. And then when you do all of this deep work to try to get it and to show up and do the amends work first. Right. You fix it first and then the words.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

And let's look at it again from the victim's point of view. How can someone who's been harmed recognize and know when they are ready or not ready to do either of the two forms of forgiveness that you mentioned. Wipe the slate clean or forgive in a more fully embracing sense?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Well, that's the thing, is that I think if the harm doer is doing this correctly, they are listening to and honoring the victim's needs the whole way through. And obviously there are going to be times and places when the victim is not going to want to hear from the harm doer, is not going to want to see the harm doer. And a harm doer doing this right will honor that and say, great, I'm going to make myself scarce and not center themselves, you know, and make their own recovery or need to be absolved. More important than the victim's emotional or other kinds of safety, you know?

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Like that's, that's what is paramount is, is the victim. And if you try to center yourself over the person you hurt, you are missing the point.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right?

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

Yeah. Very often in more ordinary kind of everyday hurting one another in personal relationships, not in the me too kind of model. People often say, they often apologize. I said something that hurt you and I can see how that was awful to you. And then they also explain their point of view. I didn't have breakfast this morning. I didn't sleep well. I was stressed about an interview. So does that have a place in your description of repentance and repair?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

I think it depends on context, honestly. You know, I think the commitment to trying to figure out what you did wrong and why and to center the harmed party's perspective. You know, one of my favorite confessions of harm is Dan Harmons. He was the showrunner for a show called Community and he sexually harassed his, one of his writers. And in his confession he said, listen, I, you know, I never would have done this if I had respected women. I, you know, here are the lies that I told myself in order to make this possible. And here is really what happened. It wasn't about the times and places, it was about the dissonance. And I think when we're hurt because we've all been hurt and we've all caused harm. So, you know, do you want to know if the person who hurt you, who screamed at you didn't have breakfast? Like, does that help? I don't know. You can do a little empathetic thinking, right? You know, or do you want to know that the person has been making excuses like that and needs to figure out a way to stop justifying?

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

I don't, if somebody screams at me, I don't necessarily care if they had breakfast or not. I want to know how they're going to stop screaming at me and other people.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

I want to know what's going to be different. But if understanding some of the backstory is going to help illuminate how actually this thing was a unique situation and how this detail that I didn't have is why this was in fact a unique situation or I don't know, Right. Maybe sometimes context is helpful, but it really depends on what the context is. And if I, the harm doer, have been doing my listening correctly, I can probably discern what context is going to be welcome and what context is going to be feeling like an excuse. And again, you know, if we're so attached to the story of ourselves as the hero, we're going to be looking for justifications like, oh, I didn't have breakfast.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

Your book also addresses institutions, organizations. So talk about what obligations organizations like schools or religious institutions or corporations have after they have caused harm, and address a little bit what leaders or board members can do to make those organizations more accountable without doing what they often do, which is turning to scapegoats.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Yes. Every organization is made up of many members. And every single member of an organization has power when harm is caused. Obviously, the more power a person has in that body, the more obligation they have, particularly when something could go sideways or when something does go sideways and when harm is caused. It's the same steps.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

It's the same. We did not do.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Here is how we're going to do different. What is amends?

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

What is an apology? And then how do we make different choices? And there are places that have done this work profoundly. They're incredible models. University of Michigan Medical center has transformed their approach to medical malpractice, for example.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

This is not without precedent. It is not without possibility. And so often the desire is to run from accountability, to bury reports of investigations as they come out and to keep victims from having access to information about the people who hurt them.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

To allow victims to be painted as the bad guys for even asking for justice.

[Guest Rabbi Danya Rutenberg]

Right.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

And then you have institutional betrayal piled on the original hurt. And so you have these institutions of trust that are happy to take credit for their employees when they do something good and just absolutely abscond responsibility when those same institutions cause hurt to their constituents. And I have seen it again and again, you know, both through the process of writing the book and as a result of writing the book, I've seen the underbelly of many institutions, especially in my community, and some have done some great work, but it's usually because of constituent pressure and not because of any moral desire to do the right thing.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

And what role does spiritual practice, Jewish or any other one, play in repentance and repair?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

I listen. I believe that the work of repentance and repair is its own spiritual practice. I think that it's an extraordinary muscle that you can work. And like any muscle, it gets stronger the more you work it. And it gets easier the more you move that muscle. And, you know, Jewish practice talks a lot about this work, especially during this season, the Elul, the month leading up to Rosh Hashanah and the time between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and a little bit after. But, you know, the Talmud teaches that you're supposed to repent one day before your death. And since you don't know when that will be, that means that you should do this repentance work every single day. And I think we as a community, forget that. And, you know, a community made up of human beings. And it gets very easy to run from this work when it's inconvenient. And so I, you know, I wish for all of us that we could find ways to make this more part of our regular practice.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

So finally, Danya, what is the most important message you hope readers will take away from your book?

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

I truly, with all of my heart, believe that the work of repentance is a gift. It's not. It's challenging, but it isn't and shouldn't be scary. It is a practice that enables the person who caused harm to grow into the person that they have always wanted to be and always meant to be. And it's a practice that enables them to reach out to someone who is hurting in love and caring, and to say, hey, you matter and I want to reach to you and help you heal because you are someone who matters. It's a gift of growth and love. It's not about self flagellation and feeling bad. It's a way of being the best of who we can be as individuals in a community.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

The book is on repentance and Making Amends in an Unapologetic World by Danya Rutenberg. You can find more of her [e-mail] thanks for sharing your insights with me today, Danya.

[Host Renee Garfinkel]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Interviewer Renee Garfinkel]

And thanks to our researcher, Bela Pasakov.

[Casual Friend]

Yo, this is important, man. My favorite Lululemon shorts, the ones you got me back in the day. I think they're pace breakers. The ones with all the pockets. Well, I just got back from vacation and I think, think I left them in my hotel room. And dude, I need to replace these shorts. I wear them like every day with that Lulu hoodie you got me. Could you send me the link to where you got them? Thanks, bro. Talk soon.

[Liquid IV Advertiser]

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[WhatsApp Advertiser]

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