Loading summary
Transcript70 lines
- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [00:05]
B
Hello, everyone, and welcome to nbn. I'm your host, Holly Gattery, and I'm really thrilled to have joining me today, David Lee, who's the author of many books. But today we're here to talk about Not All Dragons, which was released with Walzack and Winn. In a land of magic and myth, Rhys awakens on the shores of Lania with a mysterious, mysterious wounds on his back and no memory of his life before. Disoriented, he stumbles on the Marines estuary protected by the mermaid Delia, who is quickly intrigued by this male who doesn't smell like any Laninian she's ever met and who is unable to answer questions about himself. Determined to figure out his past, Rhys convinces Delia to help and begins a dangerous journey to discover who he is or. Or was, and who he might become. As they hunt for the truth beneath the story and prophecy, David Lee brings readers a fascinating and fresh take on dragons and destiny in this captivating novel. Welcome to the show, David.
- [01:11]
A
Thank you for having me, Holly.
- [01:13]
B
I'm so excited. I have so many questions for you, but first, a little bit about you for our audience. David Lee is the author of Mythical man and Dream of Me as Waters, both shortlisted for the Relit Poetry Awards, and the fantasy novel Not All Dragons he co edited with Daniel Zamparelli, Queer Little Nightmares, an anthology of monstrous fiction and poetry. David's poems have appeared in publications such as Arc Poetry Magazine, Best Canadian Poetry, Prism International and the Ex Puritan, where he won the inaugural Austin Clarke Prize in Literary Excellence for poetry, as well as in the Pan Macmillan anthologies. He, she, they us Queer Poems and you are never too Poems for every emotion. He is the poetry editor at this magazine. David, let's dive right in. Where did this jewel of a novel start for you?
- [02:09]
A
Jewel of a novel? Thank you for kind words. It started, I think, from a poem in Mythical man that was titled Boy. It was just an image of a boy who was in an. In a forest and he was hiding from something. He was angry and sad and he was under a blanket of moths out of all creatures. And. Yeah, and that image just never left me. Ever since I wrote that book, it's been kind of percolating in my head for about five, six years. And then I just kept on wondering about him and asking questions about who he is, what he was, and eventually he became Rhys, who's the character in Not All Dragons, and we follow him on his journey, just discover who he is.
- [02:56]
B
Yeah, I love that answer. Especially because I have a novel idea in my head. But I think I have a book of poetry that, with gratitude to the Canada Art Council, I have to finish first. And I was like, maybe I can just like, start thinking about it in a poem, like address it in a Persona poem or something, and then that will help me get into the novel. So I feel very justified by your answer.
- [03:21]
A
So I think that is. Yeah, perfect way to go.
- [03:24]
B
Yeah. So everybody says to me, what about that novel you're talking about? It's like, listen, David says, I have to do the poem. I understand that's not what you said, but you're getting thrown under the COVID real bus right now.
- [03:35]
A
But I think in this case, I did have to do the poem first because I wouldn't have arrive to where Rhys was is if it weren't for that poem. Right. A lot of my poems, they are kind of snapshots, I think, of scenes, mini middle narratives, incomplete or otherwise. And, yeah, I think they just kind of. All these kind of stories kind of start, I think, in a poem for me.
- [03:58]
B
Yeah, I actually have some, like, I have a couple of poems that have spawned into short stories or novels, come to think of it. I have, like. And not that the poem wasn't a full, complete thing as it was. It was. But then whatever I was working through needed to take another life as well. Does that make sense?
- [04:15]
A
Yeah, yeah, that makes complete sense. I totally understand that.
- [04:19]
B
So have you done that before? Like, do you often have your poems spawn a different genre or is this a first?
- [04:25]
A
This was the first. Yeah. None of my other poems in either books. And, yeah, both of those books have spawned anything. I think the only thing that they've kind of inspired is images into not all dragons. A lot of the imagery and kind of mythical ethos of, like, mythical man and dream of mies water definitely crept their way into not all dragons to kind of build the world of Lenillia out for me. So it was nice to kind of rely back on my poetry to. To build the world.
- [04:56]
B
And Rhys's kind of story, I've said a million times on the show, Kits, hyperbole. But I'm a poet. That's what I do. I. I love novels written by poets. And I think not all Dragons is such a brilliant example of that. From the prologue. Yeah, that prologue. Like, we are seat. Like, you know, we're there with Rhys in an estuary and, you know, he's. He's drenched and he's wet. And I felt that as. As a reader, I felt like I was just all these beautiful metaphors and images just washing over me. It felt so perfect. And I need to know, did you, did you begin this novel with like, this is going to be. Be the beginning? We're going to. This is where the novel's going to start, or was that something that materialized later and you're like, well, this should start the novel?
- [05:48]
A
Yeah, that's. That's an interesting question. I haven't really sat down to think about that as much. But the novel materialized in the form of the ending first. So the ending image of the novel was where I started. And I got thinking about how stories are really impactful for me when the beginnings and endings kind of mirror each other in the sense that they could be the same image but in a different context. So I took the image of the ending and kind of played with how it could unfold at the start of his story, but in a totally different, you know, realm of emotion and context. I worked, I reworked that prologue quite a bit to where it's at now. And I think it. It always was going to start there because that's kind of how it ended. You know, it was just a matter of kind of nailing the. The perspective of really putting readers in his kind of shoes, per se, and all the things he was feeling.
- [06:53]
B
It has the effect. Yeah, of course, it has the effect of like trying to stand on a wet rock by where you're. You're standing there and you're like, ear focused and you don't want to slip, but everything's moving around you, which is what Reese's feeling. Right. So it's, it's so perfect. The images are coming into focus and then leaving and then coming in. It's just a really, really powerful way to start the book. And I usually ask for a reading a little bit later in the conversation, but because we are talking about the prologue right now, and I know I'm asking you to read something specifically, and this isn't a karaoke bar, but still, I would love for you to read to us from the prologue.
- [07:37]
A
Sure, yeah. I'll read the prologue here. Okay. The sea wept with Rhys, each wave breaking like a breath he couldn't catch. Clouds aglow in pink and orange stretched above the western coast of Lenillia. Dawn over the Walnian Sea always echoed the blush of succulent fruit to him. Memories bloomed on his tongue of the sharp, citrusy burst of sun pearls and the lingering spiced warmth of morning berries. Rhys stood motionless, clutching the flower bud in his hand, rubbing its Soft petals. He wondered if he would soon forget the taste of his favorite fruits as well. Tide lights bloom to be eaten at sunrise. The instructions hissed through his mind before it opens. Rhys held the charcoal black flower up against the cresting. Against the sun cresting the horizon, it glistened like a night sky speckled with stars. A gift from the sea to take him away. A forceful wind picked up and a fine sea mist enveloped his body. After another tidal crash, he curled his toes at the chill. Then the first petal peeled open. He put the entire bud into his mouth and chewed bitterly, herbaceous at first, tolerable until it melted into something pungent and rancid. Reece stifled a gag with his hand. He swallowed tears pricking the corners of his eyes. It would work quickly. He'd been toad. His life and memories would burn out and peel away from him like skin on spoilt morning berries. His body stripped of every fiber meant to hold what he loved. But beneath the surface of his certainty, a quiet panic rippled through his chest. The waves came harder. The wind intensified, pushing him to stagger back away from the water. He fell to his hands and knees, a dizzying head pounding spell, and let loose a groan of agony like something dredged out from the deep. His ears rang sharp and steady. Muscles in his back knotted and seized while bone ground against itself. It was like his back was contorting to betray its own shape. For a fleeting moment, the sensation reminded Rhys of a time when he'd fallen from a great height and landed on a prickly bush. The almost memory was quickly washed away when the ocean, once clear, fractured into painful glares of white light. His back continued to ache while the rest of his body tensed against an icy chill flowing beneath his skin with an uncanny purpose. A thin layer of his skin flaked off arms, hands, chest, fingers trembling. Rhys touched the cool sting along his face as the skin of his fingertips peeled off and twisted in the breeze. Then suddenly it surged, the ache of his muscles, the sting of his skin sloughing off bright and violent. On his back. Rhys turned, gasping at blue flames curling out of his flesh. Flames that burned with no heat. As they licked icily against him, he experienced a terrible inkling that something essential, something he was always meant to have to know, was fading. It was if he held both answer and question. But they dissolved before he could begin to grasp what was happening. A crash of water swallowed his scream, like the sea itself was refusing to let his agony be heard. His skull felt like it was being cleaved in two as the flames flickered. He whipped his head about his surroundings, unable to discern where he was. His suspicion that the landscape looked familiar slipped away just as quickly as it came. Each time he felt he was nearing recognition. Details burned away faster than he could hold them. In the empty spaces they left behind festered a tearing panic. The cold rock cut into his skin when his head smacked the ground. He lay there motionless, exposed, vulnerable and feeling utterly out of control as his own body raged against him. Rhys stared at his palm, bloody from where he'd struck rock. The agony in his muscles was finally beginning to dissipate, coils of pain loosening one by one. And where the pain faded, a cold ache curled in its absence. He felt a delicate prickle on his skin. It had started to rain. The droplets quickened, exploding on the rock like brittle pearls. Rhys's consciousness waned until a boom of thunder exploded overhead, startling him. But his body was too ruined, too hollowed out by pain to fully respond. Another rumble of thunder rolled over the water, deep enough this time to rattle his ribs. He let it pass, too exhausted to stand, too broken to care. Once leaf came finally, it took him the way tides reclaimed tide pools, slow and inevitable. But as the seafoam flowed over him, what lay within remained.
- [12:30]
B
I mean, oof, that's awesome. I love how, how simultaneously internal and outward facing that is, the whole thing is me. It's so deeply rooted in the body, but the external influences are constantly at play and constantly noted. It's really beautifully done. And you know, hearing this read again, I'm like, oh, there, there are so many clues
- [13:01]
A
that was. That was tricky and fun to do to. To kind of write what was happening without directly mentioning and speaking to what was happening.
- [13:12]
B
Which leads so perfectly into my question, which is about. This is undoubtedly a fantasy book, but I think, you know, for people who have, you know, picked up a lot of like, was it fourth wing?
- [13:25]
A
I don't know.
- [13:26]
B
But like the romantic. Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to be dismissive, I just have not read it. But if. Who are steeped in tick tock fantasy, I. And again, you know, I'm just so happy anybody's reading, I'm not going to complain. But if. If that's the only kind of fantasy, you know, I would say this kind of more high literary fantasy might be. I'm not going to say jarring, but I think if you don't approach it with like an open mind, that I think, yeah, that what you're, what you're used to might be this. This is going to be different than what you're used to. But it, like, it is undoubtedly fantasy for those of us who have read like A Wrinkle in Time or any of. Of, you know, the. The more classic fantasy. And I'd love to hear you talk about your approach to shaping this book within the world of fantasy, which, you know, is quite a. You know, a world with so many different terrains and there's so many different ways to do it. But I find in today's contemporary world of reading, a lot of readers carry in their head only one very narrow definition for fantasy.
- [14:37]
A
Yeah, I kind of feel that too, where it's very dominant, that fantasy has to be very. Just so large, largely scaled, like externally, you know, with complicated systems and. And trajectories of characters and all that. I think while it's very entertaining to, I think, and wrap our. Wrap ourselves into it, I think there's something to be said about fantasies that are a bit more quiet and a bit more subtle in how they unfold, I think in books. And that's the kind of fantasy where I like, tend to go to more, I think.
- [15:10]
B
Yeah, yeah. I really. I enjoyed the quietness of this. And I mean, again, when poets write novels, it's just invariably beautiful and there's so much ish richness and texture to the language that just on a craft level, I was mesmerized by this book. It was a. It was a. You know, it kind of felt like a book that I read as a kid called Misty Morgan. It was about a unicorn or. I can't remember getting lost in the mist, but that's what it reminded me of. It was a very slow, subtle, quiet book. But there was a lot of. There's still a lot happening. And that. That's, you know, in your book. I was just mes. Again, mesmerized. I'm using that a lot because it seems like the perfect word for this book by the world building. So I need to know about world building for this because world building is nothing I've ever done, really. All worlds exist in. In a semi reality in my books. But you have some pretty sophisticated world building going on.
- [16:05]
A
Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's. It was definitely an uphill journey to build the world of Lenillia. I remember very distinctly being very afraid to build the world, to even name the world that Rhys lives in, because I didn't want that world to be the overarching kind of shadow over everything. I didn't want the world to just be the thing that Captivated people. I want it to be a very character driven story, but have the world kind of be like a secondary character, if you will, with. With kind of facets that kind of like peek out here and there that don't kind of give the fullest picture of the world. But. But what it does show, it shows that there is depth to a lot of like, say, the creatures that inhabit the world. Yeah. Like my editor, A.J. wilmot, they really, really kindly supported me in like, you know, encouraging me to build the world out, show how the characters interact with the world. And that's how the story really kind of came really falling together for me, I think. And in the end, I did give the world a name, but I really kept Rhys at the center of the story here and that he was just dropped into this world and the world wasn't, you know, consuming him. Yeah. It was a fine balance that I had to find between building a very fantastical world but also keeping it very muted so that it wasn't overshadowing things that I. That I really wanted to highlight, which was, you know, the character frees himself. Yeah.
- [17:42]
B
And I think it increases the verisimilitude as a reader because the world isn't overshadowing, it's just there. The way that all of our worlds are just there.
- [17:53]
A
Yeah. And I think that's more intriguing to me in fantasies when the world isn't fully fleshed out with. With deep lore and deep history. Because characters living in that world, they wouldn't really, you know, explain those things. They just kind of exist with them, within them, I think.
- [18:12]
B
Yeah. Right after I read. Yeah, like very shortly after I read your book, I read a much, much heavier fantasy book. It was pack Patrick Roth's book. It's the Kingslayer series. It was this equal to Name of the Wind. I forget forgetting what it's called now. And I noticed the same thing. Like there's no. There's not a lot of detail about the world that, that the characters are living in. It just is the world that they're living in. And I think that trust of the reader to make things up. You're giving them enough to go on. You're giving them a solid foundation, but you don't need to handhold the reader through everything. And anyone who's listened to me talking on this podcast knows that I cannot stand long overblown landscape district. You know, I'm just like, like lord, her rings killed me. I was like, enough.
- [19:06]
A
I'm like that too. Like, I understand where I am. I get It I understand where I am now. Now show me where the characters are going to go. Right.
- [19:13]
B
Yeah, exactly. And what the characters this or feel or responding to in the landscape is very informative to continuing with that world building. But I don't need a five page description of a hilltop off the bat.
- [19:27]
A
You.
- [19:29]
B
That's a lot. So for. For me and people like me who may be thinking about. As you're just thinking more deeply about world building in. In narratives or who are thinking about maybe building a world of their own. What is one piece of advice you give on world building? It doesn't have to be the most important. It doesn't have to. It's just something you can think of that you feel anyone going into world building or wanting to think more deeply about world building might find.
- [20:00]
A
I think thank you for saying, you know, it doesn't have to be anything deep or anything. But I think what I keep going back to is, was including things in the world and building upon things that purely things that I was obsessed with and that wouldn't leave me. So example would be in this world of Anilia, water plays a huge role and transformation plays a big role. I'm naturally gravitating towards those two kind of themes in literature and just kind of running with that and seeing how those themes can inform the visuals of the world and how the characters behave in them. Yeah. Just like. Right. With what kind of. You are obsessed with. I think is my. My tip.
- [20:49]
B
I love that. And I never asked for the most or the least anything was anytime I'm asked that I think about it. After I'm like no, that wasn't it. I changed my mind. So there's no hierarchy. It's just something. Anything. Yes. So my. One of my other questions for you is about actually the characters. We have more than one character. I mentioned Delia and she's the second character we meet. But there's actually quite a cast of characters. So. And I think I was given just the right amount on all of them.
- [21:22]
A
Oh my God. Thank you so much.
- [21:26]
B
I've hit something. Okay.
- [21:28]
A
Thank you so much.
- [21:30]
B
Well, I did because there's sometimes where I'm reading something and you have to balance how much you're getting on each person to the importance they play in the story. And I don't want to be given a whole bunch of backstory or information about a person that doesn't reflect the amount that they're driving the story forward. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd love to hear about that process of balancing the right amount of information with somebody's. I mean, they're all important characters, but their. Their weight in driving that story forward and, you know, just creating these characters in general. And maybe if you have a favorite character or one that was just a lot of fun, and maybe not a favorite, but one that you had the most fun with.
- [22:10]
A
Okay. Yeah. I think where I kind of started with building the cast of characters was that I tried my best to dream each character as kind of a facet of Rhys's personality, to kind of tie them all together in a way that made them feel cohesive and natural. So, like, Delia is the mermaid that is the first creature character that Rhys meets, and she's. She's very curious, she's very caring, and that was a facet of Rhys that I knew he had. And then other characters come up where there are kind of. They're kind of side characters, but important enough. So, like, the witches come up a bit later when they're tied to Rhys a bit, they're kind of tied to the kind of mysterious part of him. And, of course, there's other characters that kind of, you know, come from his past that kind of have kind of built his backstory, and they kind of represent things that he has forgotten in a way. Yeah, that makes sense. Being writing in fantasy, I was aware that the book was going to have a large cast of characters, as fantasy tends to do. But like you said, I wanted to give each kind of enough of a spotlight just to make them feel that they are there for a very meaningful purpose, rather than just being there to kind of be a character. Let's say there are characters that pop up that kind of have. Who serve kind of attention towards what Rhys is once he discovers what he is, and they are kind of that ignorant side of the culture society that he comes from. There's also characters that come up that kind of share his unsureness in who he is, which was fun to write, too. Funnily enough, I think one of my favorite characters was one that she only got one scene in the book, and it's early on in the book where she's the second mermaid that watches over the estuary that Delia watches over, and her name is Batali. She was just a fun character to write, even though she had maybe two, three pages of dialogue with Rhys and Delia. But she was just so clear in my head of how she sounded and how she moved and kind of, you know, nodded to Rhys in a way. Yeah, she kind of had, like, a spice to her, which I really liked. But I'm not sure why she didn't show up again, but I think she's really interesting in showing. Kind of like the opposite of how delay is. Yeah, yeah. She's one of my favorites, I think. And of course, I think the witches were also another one that have stuck with me who never really. I never really intended them to play such a. An informative role in Rhys's understanding of himself. So they were like a nice surprise to myself when I was writing them.
- [25:03]
B
Yeah, well, as someone whose initials actually spell hag, I am partial to witches. You know, I'm middle. Middle age. I have teenagers, you know, I'm leaning into it these days. I did love the witches as well. So one of my. Yeah, one of my final questions for you is about writing a novel after writing mostly shorter forms before. Were those.
- [25:31]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [25:31]
B
And if you found it was, you know, easier than you expected or more difficult than you expected, or maybe it was just exactly what you expected it to be. But I, as someone who has moved between genres myself and only moved to a novel after shorter forms, like three shorter form books, I definitely found it challenging.
- [25:54]
A
Yeah. So it was exactly how I imagined it to be, which was extremely challenging and exhausting. I'm used to writing very, you know, short poems that say all that they need to say. It was very, yeah, exhausting writing chapters, writing paragraphs one after the other, and then just figuring out how the narrative was to unfold and play into the ending that I wanted it to play into. One trick that I leaned on heavily was whenever I was stumped on a certain section, I would kind of pause and trick myself into thinking, I'm not writing the draft of this chapter. Let's just write a poem of how this scene looks and feels. And that's how I kind of propelled myself forward in writing paragraph after paragraph, I think. And that's how I tend to be a very imagistic visual writer. So that helped a lot in building the fantasy world. So that was really nice to do in, like, on a longer form rather than just building out a scene that's in a poem. But, yeah, it was really rewarding, though. I think in the end that it all fell together and turned into what it is now.
- [27:13]
B
Yeah, I love. I love the visual element of your work. And I. I do agree. I couldn't figure out how to write a novel either, but I just done short fiction, specifically flash fiction, before it, so I was like, okay, well, just write, like, do it. Do a plot outline and just write little flash pieces. Eventually go through, but I had to break it down. I couldn't hold the idea of a novel in my head. Like it was, it was too much. But I also felt like having to do a plot outline. For me, I'm like, oh, this is like having to do math. I hate.
- [27:46]
A
Yeah, I, yeah, I had, I found that I have a funny relationship with plot outlining and every writer is different, but I could only outline like just a little bit under 2/3 of the, of my story. And then I just filled in the rest as I was writing. I, I think, I don't, I didn't like outlining and as you know, I'm doing it for like another story, another novel right now. It's, it's, it does. Like you said, it feels like math. It feels very technical and it feels very formulaic and it feels very confining. I, I just really just needed the short bullet points of what I needed to happen and then I could fill in the rest as I was drafting, which I found the most useful for me.
- [28:31]
B
That's exactly what I did. Like my outline was like two, two points on what each so called chapter was going to be. It wasn't extensive at all.
- [28:40]
A
Yeah, no, my outlines are like very sparse skeletons. I usually just do like a very simple excel sheet and one of the columns that's only filled is like important images. And if I ever come up with an image, I just plop it in somewhere and then I kind of write around it kind of thing.
- [28:57]
B
Oh, that's such, that feels like such a soul expanding, you know, chest expanding way to write a novel. Like I could feel myself just like inhale right to the bottom of my lungs when you said that because, like it just speaks to me and it's really there. I feel like it's in your work, which, I mean, I'm not trying to belabor this water metaphor, but it's. Your work feels very oxygenated, you know, like there's lots of room to breathe. Like there's lots of gorgeous metaphor, lots of movement, lots of, you know, silky blues and just like, it's just lovely. But there I didn't feel like I was being. I'm sorry for saying water again, but waterboarded with it. I can't help it. I'm just beating this dead horse, but it's not trying to. But yeah, it felt like lots of room to breathe in it, which I, which I enjoy because I do obviously love metaphor. I love simile, I love poetry practice. But I, and this is never who poets who do this every now and then I'm reading a novel. I'm like, wow, why did nobody stop the similes? This is. This is too much. Every. There's like a like or an as every third line. Enough, enough. But I didn't feel that.
- [30:07]
A
No, I understand what you mean. Yeah. Thank you. I don't. I. I don't really have an answer to why my writing is like that. I. It's like I say, it's usually just how do I get from one image to the next, you know, and make that as seamless as possible for me? That feels the most comfortable for me to write, I think.
- [30:27]
B
Yeah. Well, Stephen Mayoff, who's a wonderful poet and writer in the east coast, he said in an interview once that all. All art is a knee jerk reaction to the world around us. And that's. I think everybody's knee jerk reaction is different. Like the way that we knee jerk is just. You know, some people are mathematical. Some people do love those outlines. Some people rely on binders and binders and binders of backstory and information. Some of those are flying by the seat of our pants, just, Just channeling the storm within us and picking up.
- [31:03]
A
Yeah, that's. That's very much like. Like what? Like these days, my head is very heavy right now with, with imagery and, and. And dialogue about kind of these. This new. This new story that I'm working on. But none of it is outlined. None of it is put on to a Word document. It's all existing in me right now, and I think I just need to write it out. But, yeah, I'm getting to the point where my cup is overfilling with water.
- [31:27]
B
I think just keep talking about the water. Yeah. Well, I do want to ask you about what you're working on now, and I also know that you have another collection of poetry coming out this fall with the excellent panel says Press. I'd love to hear about that. But also, what's still in the can.
- [31:43]
A
What's still in the can is I'm reheating my own nachos and going back to the water.
- [31:49]
B
Yeah, the.
- [31:50]
A
The next story. The. Hopefully. Yeah, hopefully. The next story. It's. It has to do with a fictional archipelago off the western coast of British Columbia that's been settled by Vietnamese and Cambodian immigrants. The story takes place across two timelines. The present in the past. And all I want to say is a supernatural entity connects them and it has to do with the water.
- [32:20]
B
I'm here for it. And I. I'm.
- [32:23]
A
Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
- [32:25]
B
I was gonna say I know what it's like to be like, I don't want to give this too much air or it's going to disintegrate. I just need to.
- [32:32]
A
Yes.
- [32:33]
B
Hold it a little bit.
- [32:35]
A
Yeah. Like this story. I don't want to give it too much air right now or also disintegrate. So I'm gonna hold it underwater and. Yeah, I'm going to really lean into horror for this one, though, because that just feels the right route. Because the one image in my head is so grotesque. I just need to get to that image at the end of part one. I need to get there.
- [33:00]
B
I never thought that I was a big horror reader, but then I realized that I can be. I was reading Lindsay Wong's Tell Me Pleasant Mortality and Villain Hitting for Richest Little Nobodies. And I mean, some of that is just like. Like just the. The head in the trunk in one of the short stories still haunts me. And the smell of that. But like, the way it was described, it was awful, but just like so perfect and so like. And I actually really, I. I've decided I do like horror. It's just a certain kind of horror. Like, I'm not so much into slasher horror.
- [33:38]
A
Me too. Me too. Me too. Yeah, I like quarter that horror that unsettles me more than a slasher film would. Just something that is just so off about what I'm seeing that I just cannot forget kind of thing.
- [33:51]
B
Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm looking forward to it. No pressure. But get writing and then the poetry. I'd love to hear more about that.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah, I'm really excited for that one. Just putting on a poetry book feels a lot better. I think that flirts. But after putting out a novel. The poetry book is coming out September, mid September. It's called Ritual Interrupted. It is. It is about kind of coping through daily rituals when they're interrupted by mental health crises. So, like, I struggle with depression and anxiety. A lot of it kind of filters into my work. All of the books I put out kind of have that kind of lens to them. But I think with Ritual Interrupted, I have totally, totally leaned into it and have just kind of dedicated this grimoire of just this. This book detailing or not poems detailing kind of, you know, just the struggles of just trying to, like, breathe.
- [34:53]
B
Yeah, I would be reading that. I do love books that look at neurodivergence and mental. Mental illness. I was recently having an interesting conversation with someone about how they believe that mental illness is just neurodivergence and dressing it up as illness is problematic, I think it's really interesting thing to consider. I'm not sure where I am because as someone who, you know, lives with this, I have definitely felt ill. I've definitely felt ill.
- [35:27]
A
So. No, I. Yeah, me too. No, like it. No, like it's very, for me, it's a very bodily reaction. Like my, I. My body shuts down and it's definitely. That's an illness. I would say that's an old medicine.
- [35:41]
B
So. So what? So would I. But I'm, I'm so interested in seeing how other artists, other people express it through art. So I'm really looking forward to, to Reading Ritual Interrupted and thank you so much for joining me today, David, to talk about your on say It Again Marvelous fantasy, high fantasy literature novel, Not All Dragons, which listeners you can pick up from wherever books are bought or borrowed. And it was published by the excellent Walzack in Wynne. David, I can't wait to have you back to talk about your next books.
- [36:15]
A
Well, thank you so much. I would love to be back. Thank you so much, Holly.
- [36:18]
B
Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network. We are an academic podcast network with the mission of public education. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can browse all of our episodes on our website newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us on Instagram and BlueSky with the handle ew booksnetwork, and subscribe to our weekly Substack newsletter at newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.