Don Baker, "Korean New Religions" (Cambridge UP, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

New Books Network: Don Baker on "Korean New Religions"

Episode Date: June 20, 2026
Host: Leslie Hickman
Guest: Dr. Donald Baker, Professor Emeritus, Korean History and Civilization, University of British Columbia
Book Discussed: Korean New Religions (Cambridge University Press, 2025)

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Episode Overview

This episode offers a comprehensive discussion between Leslie Hickman and Dr. Donald Baker about his concise volume “Korean New Religions.” The conversation explores how Korea’s spiritual landscape was transformed from flexible, syncretic traditions to become a site of vibrant new religious movements (NRMs), many shaped by nationalism, modernity, and responses to Western influence. Dr. Baker provides scholarly yet accessible explanations of doctrinal changes, the dynamics of religious identity, and the sometimes fraught status of new religions in Korean society.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Korea’s Pre-Modern Religious Landscape

(02:31 - 04:33)

• Religious Fluidity: Dr. Baker describes pre-modern Korea as having “very weak, dim religious boundaries,” with laypeople fluidly partaking in Confucian, Buddhist, and shamanic practices without strict identification to any.
• Confucianism as Religion: Despite scholarly debates, Baker insists that “pre-modern Koreans believed as deeply in Confucianism as people believe in religions” (02:53).
• Priority of Practice: Korean religiosity emphasized ritual action and ethics over doctrine — “Koreans didn’t talk about belief in religion. They talked about what they did” (04:16).

2. Christianity and the Religious Revolution in Korea

(05:11 - 07:45)

• Introduction of Monotheism and Doctrine: Christianity (first Catholicism in 1784, later Protestantism) introduced the concepts of a single God and the centrality of belief and doctrine.
• Exclusive Religious Identity: For the first time, laypeople were expected to “not cross religious boundaries,” fostering distinct congregations loyal to one faith.
• Participatory Worship: “The whole idea of participatory rituals… was what Protestantism introduced to the Korean religious landscape” (07:28).

3. The Concept of Kaebyeok (“Great Transformation”)

(07:45 - 10:35)

• Origin and Significance: Kaebyeok, originally meaning “creation,” evolved to signify an imminent cosmic and societal transformation, central to many NRMs (e.g., Cheondogyo, Jeungsangdo).
• Transformation and Korean Centrality: New religions proclaim Korea will be at the center of an ideal world after kaebyeok: “When this kaebyeok happens, all the world will speak Korean. There will be no discrimination between male and female… It’ll be a paradise on earth” (09:05).
• Material vs. Spiritual Kaebyeok: Some groups, such as Won Buddhism, interpret the “material kaebyeok” as already ongoing via modernization and emphasize the need for a spiritual transformation.

4. Religious Nationalism in New Religions

(10:35 - 14:40)

• Emergence Amid Colonization: Nationalistic themes intensify as Koreans experience colonization and external domination, fostering beliefs that Korea is destined to lead a renewed world.
• Messianic Founders: Multiple new religions, such as the Unification Church, claim Korean messiahs who outshine or replace figures like Jesus.
• Mythic Histories: Some groups assert implausible ancient origins for Korea, accompanied by “history books… written in the late 20th century” but presented as ancient.
• Exclusive Worship: Dangun worship communities advocate for the worship of Korea’s mythic founder rather than “foreign gods like Jesus.”

5. Syncretism and Borrowing in Cheondogyo (Donghak/Eastern Learning)

(15:10 - 19:59)

• Borrowed Concepts and Innovations:
  • Supreme Being: Cheondogyo’s incantation uses the Catholic term “Lord of Heaven,” though their conception is closer to cosmic energy (“ki”).
  • Confucian Morality: Many moral ideals are Confucian, e.g., “preserving your original, pure mind.”
  • Shamanic Elements: Early practices included talismans and ritual dances, later dropped to appear more rational and modern.
  • Institutional Imitation: Their churches architecturally mimic Christian churches; services happen on Sundays and follow similar formats.

“In their incantation, they actually used the Catholic word for God because there was no real indigenous Korean word for the God… But otherwise, there really isn’t much Catholic influence in Cheondogyo.” (15:24)

6. North Korea’s Juche as Civil Religion

(20:51 - 24:29)

• Quasi-religious Status: Juche is “played in the life of a true Juche believer that a religion plays in the life of a true religious believer” (21:15).
• Rites and Sacred Objects: Sacred texts (writings of Kim Il Sung/Kim Jong Il), rituals (weddings and funerals before statues), and veneration of portraits act as “sacred objects.”
• Supernatural Claims: Stories of miraculous events at the deaths of leaders; “occasionally there are supernatural elements.”
• Christian Roots: There’s evidence of Christian influence—“Pyongyang before 1945 was called the Jerusalem of the East” (27:20), and the Kim family had Christian ties.

7. Public Perception of New Religions in South Korea

(27:42 - 32:15)

• Stigma and Acceptance: Most NRMs are marginalized, labeled “cults” or “heresies,” except for Won Buddhism, which is institutionally respected (e.g., military chaplaincies, state funerals).
• Legal Troubles: Leaders of NRMs often face legal accusations, especially those emerging from Christianity.
• Aggressive Proselytizing: Certain groups (e.g., Shincheonji, Jeungsangdo) attract special controversy for their methods.
• Societal Amnesia: “A lot of people don't even know Cheondogyo still exists” (31:14).

8. Scholarship, Personal Stories, and Future Projects

(32:15 - 48:33)

• Dr. Baker’s Journey: Movingly recounts his first experiences in Gwangju as a Peace Corps volunteer in 1971, personal integration into Korean society, and subsequent decades of scholarly research.
• Historical Tragedy and Religion: His research on the Gwangju Uprising (1980) seeks to understand how religion shaped the responses of ordinary people during crisis—particularly the unique role of Catholic priests.
• Current/Future Work: Baker is planning a book on the three Chung brothers (philosopher, biologist, and Catholic martyr) and hopes to further increase English-language access to Korean religious history.

“Once I was accepted, I really appreciated… I've always loved Korea… but as I've watched the amazing progress Korea's made, both politically and economically… I'm really proud of them.” (32:38-35:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Confucianism as lived religion:
  “What you see in traditional Korea is very weak, dim religious boundaries… unless they were ritual specialists, as members of a specific religious community.” — Dr. Baker (03:31)
• On Christianity’s impact:
  “It changed it dramatically. I call it a religious revolution.” — Dr. Baker (05:20)
• On the roots of NRMs’ nationalism:
  “Korea will be not just the spiritual center of the world, but also a political center of the world when Kaebok happens. And you don’t often see that in other new religions.” — Dr. Baker (14:14)
• On Cheondogyo’s syncretism:
  “Their supreme focus of their spiritual gaze is ki, which is... energy but also matter. It's that which animates the universe and constructs the universe.” — Dr. Baker (17:13)
• On North Korea’s Juche:
  “They have their sacred writings, which are the writings of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il… They have their rituals… and you have funeral rituals where you go to a statue… And so in many ways, I would say it is a religion.” — Dr. Baker (21:29)
• On societal attitudes:
  “Most of the new religions are called cults, or if they're a Christian derived new religion, they're called heresy.” — Dr. Baker (28:20)
• On Gwangju's lasting impact:
  “And what I saw sticks with me for the rest of my life — pools of blood on the street, mothers chasing their sons’ coffins down the street, the shocked look of people's eyes.” — Dr. Baker (38:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:31] Pre-modern Korean religious practice and syncretism
• [05:11] Impact of Christianity and “religious revolution”
• [07:45] The kaebyeok concept in new religions
• [10:35] Nationalism and messianic claims in NRMs
• [15:10] Cheondogyo’s foundational beliefs and hybridization
• [20:51] Juche in North Korea as civil religion
• [27:42] Contemporary public reception of new religions
• [32:15] Dr. Baker’s personal and scholarly journey
• [38:44] Gwangju Uprising, religion, and personal narrative

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Concluding Remarks

Dr. Donald Baker’s insights provide essential context for understanding how Korea’s new religions emerged from a long tradition of religious flexibility, dramatically reshaped by engagement with Christianity, modernization, and national trauma. The episode offers a nuanced view of contemporary attitudes, the role of nationalism and identity in religious innovation, and the ways religious expression responds to political and social change.

Recommended for:
Anyone interested in modern Korean religion, comparative religion, nationalism, or East Asian studies.

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Transcript

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[Dr. Donald Baker]

Welcome to the New Books Network

[Leslie Hickman]

hello everyone, and welcome back to the New Books Network. My name is Leslie Hickman, one of the channel's hosts. Today we'll be talking to Dr. Donald Baker about his short book Korean New Religions, which was published Last Year in 2025 by Cambridge University Press as part of its Elements in New Religious Movements series. This book outlines shared features of new religions in South Korea, explores which features overlap with or differ from the peninsula's spiritual traditions, and overall is an excellent primer for anyone interested in modern Korea's religious landscape. Donald Baker recently retired from a long career in Korean studies. He was most recently professor in Korean History and Civilization at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. His most recent books include A Translation, A Korean Confucian's Advice on How to Be Moral, a translation of writings by the scholar Taesan Chung Yak Yong, who explored Christianity in his work, and Dr. Baker has been on the New Books Network before to speak about his 2017 book Catholics and Anti Catholicism in Chosun, Korea. So if your interest is piquing after this episode, I encourage you to look it up with no further ado. Dr. Baker, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Thank you for having me.

[Leslie Hickman]

Okay, so to get started, I might ask you more about yourself at the end of the interview, but let's just get into the book for now. You distinguish three religions from the new ones that are the subject of Your book. And these are folk religion, Confucianism and Buddhism. What did the religious landscape look like in Korea while these old religions dominated the peninsula?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Well, first of all, I do consider Confucianism a religion. Some scholars see it as a philosophy. But I believe that the people in pre modern Korea believed as deeply in Confucianism as people believe in religions, and they were willing to even die for their Confucian values. So what did it look like before Korea began changing under the impact of Western influence? First of all, the average Korean didn't identify with any particular religious tradition. Buddhist monks knew they were Buddhist, but the average Korean who went to a Buddhist temple wouldn't call themselves a Buddhist. And Confucian Confucians would call themselves Confucians. The scholars would. But the average person would see no problem with participating in the same day a Confucian ritual, a Buddhist ritual, and even a shaman ritual. And of course, shamans would call themselves shamans, but the. Their clients, the people who go to shaman rituals, wouldn't call themselves believers in shamanism. So what you see in traditional Korea is a very weak, dim religious boundaries. People move back and forth. They didn't see themselves, unless they were ritual specialists, as members of a specific religious community. We also don't see a belief in one God. I know there are those in Korea today who believe Korea has an ancient tradition, a belief in one God. I don't see it. I've looked a lot in ancient Korean history, and I don't see it at all. Also, we don't see much emphasis in traditional Korea on doctrine, on what you believe. It's what you do that's more important. It's your ethics and your ritual practice that's core. Doctrines are supportive of that. But the doctrine. In other words, Koreans didn't talk about belief in religion. They talked about what they did in traditional times.

[Leslie Hickman]

I think also syncretism, that kind of syncretism still exists to an extent today. Like, I've heard of people going to church and praying for their son or daughter to do well in school, and then going to a Buddhist temple and doing a similar thing. Do you think that's still true?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

It's still true, although most Christians will deny they do that. But yeah, it does go on. It does go on. And by the way, Buddhism, of course, is supposed to be about detachment, but I've seen many Buddhist temples that have signs on them saying, come here and make a donation, and we'll have their monks pray for a thousand days for your son or daughter. To get into Seoul National University.

[Leslie Hickman]

Wow. Yeah. So moving on to my second question. How did the introduction of Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant versions, change the practice of religion?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

It changed it dramatically. I call it a religious revolution. I believe that people who study modern Korea look at economic change, political change, even social change. They often forget about how dramatic the religious change has been. Well, the first thing Christianity introduced Catholicism came to Korea in 1784 for their missionaries, by the way, which is interesting. Koreans were converted by books from. From China introduced the notion of one God that was not part of Korean tradition. Koreans had believed in many gods, but no one powerful God. So monotheism was a new import. Also, the notion that doctrine is important in Catholicism. Doctrine is quite important. It's what you believe that's core. Catholics in their weekly service, the Mass, recite the creed, what they believe. So that's new. And also the idea that if you belong to the Catholic Church, you don't participate in the rituals of other organizations. In fact, Catholics were killed for about a century because they wouldn't do the Confucian memorial service, the Confucian ritual for ancestors. Catholics wouldn't go to Buddhist temples and pray. So that was new. The whole idea that you stay with, you have the lay people, not just the religious specialists. The lay people have a specific religious identity, and they don't cross religious boundaries. And this led to the growth of congregations of groups of lay people meeting together on a regular basis to express their shared doctrinal beliefs and engage in a ritual that manifests those shared religious beliefs. And Protestants came in a century after the Catholics. The first Protestant missionaries arrived in 1884. Remember, Catholicism began in 1784, and Catholics added something again, new Protestant service is participatory at that point, Catholic rituals. The priests would say Mass in Latin and the congregation would watch. Buddhist rituals tended to be. Again, people watched what the Buddhist monks did. Often they recited prayers in kind of a Korean version of Sanskrit rather than Korean. Confucianism was the classical Chinese, but the Protestants had services in Korean, and they expected the participant to the congregation to join in with hymns, common prayers, and so on. So the whole idea of participatory rituals, in which the lay people participate in a ritual led by ritual specialists, was what Protestantism introduced to the Korean religious landscape.

[Leslie Hickman]

Thank you. So my third question is about the concept of kaebyeok, which often appears in Korea's new religions. Can you describe what kaebok means and why it's important? Also, where the concept came from.

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Wow. If you look at the Chinese characters. It traditionally means creation. But it became a new meaning developing with the first of the new religions, Chandokyo of a recreation, a great transformation. The idea that this world in which we live, this universe in which we live, had run its course. I think the founder of Donghak said it was 50,000 years had run its course, and a new world was going to be born. And this new world would bring about, first of all, a dramatic physical transformation of the universe, but also a transformation of humanity and human community. And this became very important in most of the new religions. And one of the new religions, Jung Sang do, says that when this K? Bye happens, all the world will speak Korean. There will be no discrimination between male and female. There'll be no discrimination between rich and poor. It'll be a paradise on earth. And so the idea is that the world has is going to be dramatically transformed and it'll be a much better place now. Juan Buddhism is one of these new religions, and their take on K? Byeok is interesting. One Buddhism says that Kabyok in the material world is already happening. One Buddhism was originated in the early 20th century. 1916 is usually given as the date of the their beginning. They say that the great changes in the material situation on the Korean peninsula with the introduction of new technologies was already bringing about a material Kabych, a great transformation. But what people needed was a spiritual Kabyuk to keep up with these material changes. And so they still believe in Kabiak, but their Kabych is more spiritual and mental. While most of other new religions believe that this really will be a transformation of the entire universe, physically and spiritually. And of course, after kbyak, Korea will be the center of this new world. And so this is very strong. Often this is supported through a creative reading of the ancient Chinese classic, the Book of Changes. There was a fellow at the end of the 19th century named Kim Il Buck who argued that the Book of Changes pointed to a great transformation coming in which China was no longer the center of the universe, but Kriya was going to be the center of the universe. And of course that would be the kaibyeok. And so the belief in kabyeok and the great transformation is in many ways inseparable from a belief that Korea has a special role to play in the world that is to come.

[Leslie Hickman]

Yeah, and I had a question also about this sort of nationalistic trend in new religions. So like, I don't know, are there other nationalistic trends besides the ones you did mentioned? Where do you think this comes from. Could you just speak more about that?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Okay. Where it comes from. Obviously, Koreans were very proud of being Korean for a long time. They've had a separate political, cultural, even religious identity for a couple of thousand years. And Suddenly into the 19th century, the people they considered barbarians took them over, took them over by 1910, and China was now in the background. That was a real change. And Korea was wondering where they fit into this new world. And so you begin to see Koreans saying, not only do we fit into this new world, we will lead this new world. So you have a series of Korean messiahs. The most famous is probably Reverend Moon of the Unification Church, who believed that Christ failed in his mission 2,000 years earlier. Christ was supposed to get married and raise sinless children. So Mun came along to be the real messiah. And the whole world would recognize that Mun was the Messiah. That's not the only new religion that believes that their founder is the Messiah. There are several, some of them which, by the way, came out of Christianity, new religions grew out of Christianity, say that their leader has replaced Jesus as the spiritual leader of the world. We also see in some of the new religions, particularly the. The Jongsung do family religions was a group that recognized a guy who. A Korean who died in 1909 as God incarnate. They believe that Korean history goes back five or 10,000 years, and that Korea used to be the strongest nation on earth, and it will be again. And so they have these history books that they claim to be books that are a thousand years old, although the text. If you read the text carefully, it's very clear they were written in the late 20th century. They believe they portray a Korean history that shows that Korea has a much more glorious past than people have realized. And so the world should recognize that and recognize that Korea is. Well, they want to call it the first civilization in the world. By the way, North Korea has a similar ideology. North Korea says that there are human beings in Pyongyang 600,000 years ago, and therefore, that was the first civilization on the face of the earth. North Korea. Another nationalistic religion I can't forget to mention is the religion that worships Tongun. Tongun is the mythical founder of what I call a mythical first grand kingdom, some kind of policy that existed in and around the Korean peninsula a little over 2,000 years ago. But they call it a kingdom. I don't see any evidence of it being a kingdom. But people who worship Tangen believe that he actually founded the kingdom 4,000 years ago. And then he is Actually, God, he was son of God. Well, they believe in a trinity. A little bit of Christian influence there. And he's the son of God who sent the earth to educate us. And they actually argue that Koreans should not worship a foreign God like Jesus. They should worship their own God, Dangun. So that's an extreme example of religious nationalism.

[Leslie Hickman]

Yeah, thank you. A lot of great examples there. This might not be a super fair question, but I'm curious, is this more nationalistic? Are there more sort of these sorts of new religions and movements that are focused on their own nation than other countries, or should we just kind of to Korea?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

That's a good question. I think most religions tend to think that their religion is superior. Right. And often, well, Christianity and Judaism and Islam too, have a holy land. Right. Sacred spot. But what Korea has done, I think more than other countries, has combined the religious and the political in arguing that Korea will be. Some of these new religions argue that Korea will be not just the spiritual center of the world, but also a political center of the world when Kaebok happens. And you don't often see that in other new religions.

[Leslie Hickman]

Yeah, really interesting. So you've mentioned some of this before, like this influence, especially by Christianity in these new religions. So you spoke specifically. Also, you brought up Jeondeok yo or Donghak has two different distinctions. So a lot of these new religions, appropriate features of older religions, including Christianity, but also Confucianism, also some folk belief. So can you talk more about what Cheondo Gyo so specifically has that is taken from other religions?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Okay, Tim Dakota is fascinating. First of all, they used to use three different words for their supreme object of spiritual focus. I say that I don't say God because it's not really a God. In their incantation, they actually used the Catholic word for God because there was no real indigenous Korean word for the God. And their incantation. Let me share it with you. They chanted it at all the Chandakyo services. It goes, ultimate energy. That's important. We'll get back to that ultimate energy being all around me. I pray that I feel that energy within me here and now, recognizing that the Lord of Heaven, that's the Catholic word for God, the Lord of heaven is within me. I will be transformed and my mind rectified. Constantly aware of that divine presence within. I will become attuned to all that is going on around me. So the very fact that they used a Catholic word for God shows Catholic influence, but otherwise there really isn't much Catholic influence in Chongnun. Kyo, they call themselves originally Tohok Eastern learnings because Catholicism was then called Western learning and Jeju. When he was questioned about whether he was, because he used the word Lord of Heaven, whether he was preaching Catholicism, he said, no, no, no, no. I follow in the way of Confucius. He said, I'm not following the Catholic way. I'm worried about the Catholics trying to take over the world, these Christians seizing countries and setting up their churches and trying to convert people to their religion. And so we have to preserve our own way. But what is interesting, a lot of the moral principles of Tanakh are Confucian. For example, they talk about preserving your original, pure mind. A basic belief in Confucianism is that human beings are born virtuous. You have to maintain that innate virtue in your mind, heart. Mind is your body just in your heart, not in your head. And Chandeok Yeol talks about that as well. But what's interesting, their supreme focus of their spiritual gaze is key, which is the Korean word for very hard to translate, energy, but also matter. It's that which animates the universe and constructs the universe. And with their incantation, you see, the first phrase is about the ultimate energy being all around me. They believe that through this incantation, we can feel the energy of the cosmos filling us up. So we join with that energy of the cosmos. And it's that energy that is the creative force in the cosmos. And so they don't believe in a personal God. They believe that there's this energy that unites us all and both, not just human beings, but also the rest of the universe as well, animals and so on. And you have to do this incantation, recognize that you are part of this broader universe, and you have to feel it. It's not just an empty incantation. You're supposed to feel this energy filling you up. And that is the focus of their spiritual gaze, which is. It seems a little bit confusing. Confucians didn't believe in a God. They believed in becoming one with the universe, but they didn't emphasize energy so much. They entered something they call or I, which is the basic patterns of appropriate interactions. But Chen Deokyo took the key concept for Confucianism and made it the primary focus of the spiritual gaze.

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[Dr. Donald Baker]

That's a Confucian influence. I don't see any Buddhist influence on Chengdu Kyo and early Chen Kyo. Under the first founder. We see a little bit of shamanic influence in that there was a sword dance and also the founder Chen Jayu taught his followers little talisman, a little piece of paper. They would write a secret phrase on it, burn it, put the ashes in water and drink it. That seems similar to shamanism, which has. It's a little. We call them puja, these little lucky charms. But that shamanistic. Those shamanistic elements in Chandakyo were dropped after the founder was executed in 1860. It was dropped by the two patriarchs who followed him. Tae Si Hung and Sun Byung Hee. And so now Chandeokyo is much more Confucianist, except when you go to a Chandyeokyo service. Their cathedral is in Seoul. It looks like a Christian church. And this is typical of many, not all of the new religions of Korea. They hold their services in buildings that look both outside and inside like a Christian church. You'll see pews, you'll see a podium for the. The pastor to give a sermon. You might even see a choir. I've not seen it. On the Chandeokyo services on Sunday, they have a choir and they meet on Sunday morning at 10 o' clock like Christians do. And if you walk into a Chandeokil church on a Sunday, if you don't know Korean, you'll think you're in a Christian church. If you understand the words, you know it's not Christian.

[Leslie Hickman]

So be careful if you're visiting.

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Yeah. Yes.

[Leslie Hickman]

Have you visited this church before? This kind of church?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they're very open people dropping by. They're very nice. And by the way, John DOK Hill preaches the equality of all human beings. No gender discrimination. But I've noticed when I've been to the service, after the service, we go down to the basement hall, the church hall, for a meal. And who does the cooking?

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[Dr. Donald Baker]

The men wait to be served, and their leaders are almost always men. But nevertheless, they do preach the equality of all human beings. No discrimination between male and female, even young and old. They preach that? Yeah. I've been to their services several times in downtown Seoul.

[Leslie Hickman]

Wow, cool. Okay, so moving on to my next question. Your book primarily focuses on South Korean new religions. And indeed, North Korea, as many people know, allows only the most restricted access to religious activity. However, you also write that the political ideology of North Korea, juche, functions like a religion for many people. So can you explain how juche is both like and unlike a religion?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Okay, well, North Koreans will equivocate if you ask if it is a religion or not. They will say that Kim Il Sung is like a God, and he has almost superhuman qualities. Well, it makes them like a religion. They believe in Juche. Those who believe in Juche believe in it as fervently as people believe in a religion. And they have their sacred writings, which are the writings of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il, Kim Il Sung's son. They have their rituals. When you get married, you get married, you pledge your loyalty to your spouse. And the revolution before a statue of Kim Il Sung, okay? And you have funeral rituals where you go to a statue of Kim Il Sung and you pledge that the body has died, but they will live on forever as long as the revolution continues. In fact, North Koreans have a version of immortality in Juche, not physical immortality. They believe in human beings, are social beings, so that as long as the society of which you were a contributor exists, your spirit somehow still exists. So as long as the Juche society exists, you somehow still exist, even though you physically no longer exist. They treat some objects as sacred objects. Well, there's a temple, first of all, Temple of the sun, where Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il bodies are kept on display. Every home has to have a picture of Kim Il Sung, and a picture of Kim Jong Il on the wall of the living room has to be kept clean. And there are often reports in the Korean press of, say, a fire or a flood is threatening the home. A person might risk their life to run in and save those portraits, and they're praised for doing that. These are sacred objects. You want to save those portraits, and you'll get in real trouble, by the way, if your portrait gets dirty. And so in many ways, I would say it is a religion. It plays the same role in the life of a true Jew, to a believer that a religion plays in the life of a true religious believer. And. And occasionally there are supernatural elements. When Kim Il Sung died, supposedly cranes from Northern Korea flew to Pyongyang to cry. Okay, so they have all these supernatural elements. There's a new book that I haven't had a chance to read yet. It just came out. It's about the Christian roots of Kim Il Sung. Kim Il Sung's family were actually Christians, and Billy Graham was invited to preach in Pyongyang in the early 1990s, which is quite amazing to me. After returning on MIT, he answered, Billy Graham in Pyongyang, what's going on? And you have a church in Pyongyang that's named after Kim Il Sung's mother, Pan Suk Church. And so you can see some kind of Christian elements because they don't have Sunday services, right? But again they do the sacred writings, the writings of the first two chems and they have these sacred objects, the fortraids of the chems and they have their rituals and so they do meet most of the criteria for religion as far as I can see. Again, scholars debate over whether it's religion or not. It depends on how you define religion basically, but I consider it a form of religiosity.

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[Leslie Hickman]

Yeah, I remember when my master's degree, I also wrote a paper on Kim Il Sung and Christianity. So I think if I remember correctly, there's rumor that he taught a kind of Bible study when he was younger. Even so it is interesting to see those connections. And Pyongyang or at least North Korea had a lot of revivals as well in the early 1900s. So yeah, really interesting about that connection.

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Actually, Pyongyang before 1945 was called the Jerusalem of the East. About 20% of the population of Pyongyang was Christian before 1945. Many of those Christians fled South. Most of them fled south when the communists took over. But the Christians, the irony is Christianity was strongest in what is now North Korea, and actually socialism was strongest in what is now South Korea.

[Leslie Hickman]

Wow. Yeah. Hey, so moving on to my next question. How have new religions been received in modern Korean society? Does the population kind of accept them? Does it depend on which one it is?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Yeah, it does depend on which one it is. Most of the renewal are not accepted. One Buddhism is the exception. One Buddhism is a new religion that is Buddhist in origin, but insists it is a new religion because it has its own rituals, its own religious dress. It's unusual that most of its clerics are women, for example. And Juan Buddhism is so respected that there are only four religions that are allowed officially to have chaplains in the US military. Catholics, Protestants, mainstream Buddhists, and one Buddhist. And also ever since the death of Kim Dae Jung, for state funerals, Kim Dae Jung was a devout Catholic, but at a state funeral, there was a Catholic priest, a Protestant pastor, a Buddhist monk, and a wan Buddhist cleric. So they're respectable. By the way, their temples also look like churches. I've been to their services many times. Not all of them. Many of them look at churches that have pews and so on. So one Buddhism is respected, but the other new religions are called cults, or if they're a Christian derived new religion, they're called heresy. And a lot of the leaders of new religious movements in Korea have faced legal difficulties. In fact, Moon Sung Young, the founder of the Unification Church, has passed away. His wife took over and she is now. I'm not sure if she was in jail or not. I know she's been arrested for bribery. Leaders of some of the new Christian movements have been accused of very sexual crimes and financial crimes. So basically the attitude toward new religions in most of Korea is disdain. Except for one Buddhism. Except for one Buddhism. And also some of the new religions are very aggressive proselytizers. If I say to a Korean, do you know the Dao Do La Shemdika? They go, oh, taehysan chiliwei on the new religions, which has been known for aggressive proselytizing. And people don't like that so much. And so I would say Korea is not that different from the rest of the world. Most new religions have a hard time when they first get going. We all forget that all religions are new religions at one point in time. And I think the ones that have the hardest time are the ones that have Christian roots because they get slammed by more mainstream Christians as being heresies. And those are the ones that got in the most legal trouble as well. But I know Jung Sang do and Taehysan Chili Hwe are the best known of the religion that worshiped Gang Joong San, who supposedly was God who descended to Korea and then went back to heaven in 1909. They're the best known and also the most controversial of those religions. Most people don't know about Daejeong Kyo, so it doesn't get much, doesn't get criticized very much. And a lot of people don't even know Chandeokyo still exists.

[Leslie Hickman]

Yeah, it's quite small, right?

[New Books Network Host]

Maybe.

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Well, maybe 100,000, 200,000 members only. Yeah, it's quite small. Yeah. They do have a youth group, but they may need a. If many people who bid. You don't get many converts at Jeon Dokil. It's inherited from the 19th century, basically.

[Leslie Hickman]

Really interesting. And I remember I was in Korea during COVID and so when Sincheonji, this newer religion, they. They got slammed for allegedly not giving the list, I think, of their congregants who, many of whom got Covid to the government. And so like, oh, you brought Covid or spread it? Yeah, so they were really slammed for that. And I think partially because they were already looked down upon as a cult or a new religion.

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Yeah, exactly. And also, Chen Shunji is controversial because they'll try to attract new converts by first acting as though they're mainstream Christians and then they slowly introduce their leader's own unique interpretation of the Bible. So it also makes them controversial. But you're right. Their leader faced Iman. He faced legal charges, but I believe he was acquitted. But yeah, he was accused not only of refusing to give the names, but also of financial impropriety, which is standard for our leaders of new religions in Korea.

[Leslie Hickman]

So, moving on to one of my last questions. This booklet is the latest publication from your long career studying Korea, which has recently entered a new chapter through retirement. So my question for you is, looking back, can you name some of your favorite research projects or meaningful moments in scholarship or your relationship with Korea and Korean religion has changed? I know there's a lot of questions, so. But what comes to mind?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Okay. Well, I first went into Korea in 1971. I was an American Peace Corps volunteer. And I was sent to the city of Gwangju, which is very important to me. I knew nothing about Korea. I'd studied Chinese before I went to Korea. But in fact, I thought, well, how can Korea be that different from China? I had no clue. No clue at all. It was tough at first. Gwangju wasn't used to foreigners living in the city. There was a US military base outside of town. There were some missionaries, Protestant missionaries, living on a compound near the hospital. But I lived with the people, and they weren't used to that. I would get a lot of the Korean word is yoke, a lot of insults as I'd walk down the street for the first six months or so. And then people realized that I lived with a Korean family. I taught in a Korean middle school, and I could speak Korean. And so they started being much friendlier. And that's when I fell in love with Korea. That's the family I live with. I'm still in touch with the nephew of my landlady. My landlady passed away in the 1990s, but I saw our nephew again last fall. We're still good friends. We've been friends for over 50 years. I also tell people. I think maybe buys the best food in Korea. And I tell people that I was skinny before I went to Gwangju. Now I'm not skinny. And my landlady ended up later opening up a restaurant. I really lucked out there with my landlady. And I mean, maybe because it was so hard getting accepted at first. Once I was accepted, I really appreciated. And so I really learned to love Korea. In Gwangju, the Peace Corps is usually two years. I stayed a third year and then went on to University of Washington to study Korean history. But over the 50 years I've been involved with Korea, my attitude towards Korea has changed. I mean, I've always loved Korea, ever since I got involved with Korea in the early 70s. But as I've watched the amazing progress Korea's made, both politically and economically. Remember when I went to Korea, Korea was poor, very poor. I very seldom had meat with my meals, maybe once a year. So I was lucky. It wouldn't be meat to be chicken, it wouldn't be beef. I had to go down the street to the public bath in my boarding house. There was no place to take a bath, take a shower. And also, Korea was under Park Chung Hee dictatorship. In fact, I was there when Park Chung Hee declared revitalizing reforms. Yushin, they called it. Now look at Korea. It's democratic. We saw that when people blocked the tiptoe Cuba. And it's also very prosperous. In fact, Koreans have more pocket money than I have, for sure. And to see the Koreans do that in my lifetime, I'm really proud of them. I really feel lucky that I've been able to spend over half a century studying Korea to see that amazing progress. Very few countries have made that kind of progress in that short period of time. Other countries may have progressed quickly economically, but they also have democracy. I should point out, by the way, that I was able to meet the champion of democracy, Kim Dae Jung, personally when he was in exile in the us and that was one of the most moving experiences of my life. I was a graduate student at the University of Washington, and I was head of an Amnesty International chapter. So we invited Kim Dae Jung to come speak at University of Washington. And he checked on who I was first. Before he accepted the invitation, he found out I was a Kwamju person. So when I went to pick him up at the airport, I said to him in Korean, Kim Seng Nim Teacher Kim Anya Ha Shoe. Which is the Gwangju greeting. Gwangju dialect. He broke out in a big grin. He was an incredible speaker. He gave two lectures, once in English, once in Korean. English, he wasn't so good, but in Korean, we had an auditorium of 800 people. He had people crying one minute, laughing the next. It was absolutely amazing, man. I'm really impressed with Kim Sejung. And of course, he was elected president in 97 to get the Nobel Peace Prize. Amazing, man. And he's part of the reason I'm so proud of Korea that they were able to. Jimmy Jung had been in jail in 1999 under death sentence. Because he opposed a coup. 1980 to see Korea turn around and make this prisoner the President was incredible. So I'm really proud of how Korea has changed over the over 50 years that I've been observing Korea. It's really been remarkable. We should talk a little about how Gwangju influenced my life. I lived there from 71 to 74 as a peace Corps volunteer with his family. I was in Seoul in 1980, working on my doctoral dissertation as a Fulbright scholar. And then I'm listening to shockwave radio. His Korean radio was censored. I found out what was going on in Gwangju. That the army special forces had attacked what was then Korea's fifth largest city. I was determined to find out if my family was alive, coloring my family, the people I lived with for three years. So I snuck into the city, had to avoid the army roadblocks by crossing over mountain paths. And what I saw sticks with me for the rest of my life. Pools of blood on the street, mothers chasing their sons, coffins down the street. The shocked look of people's eyes. Ever since, I've been determined to spread the word. How brave the people in Gwangju were. For 10 days from May 18 to May 27, they resisted General Chengduan's imposition of martial law and seizure of the government. And they were eventually defeated on May 27, and the cost of hundreds of lives. And I've been determined to study it. It's hard writing about it because it's hard for me to maintain the objectivity scholars are supposed to have. But I think after 46 years, I can do it. And what's interesting is there's a May 18 foundation now based in Quangzhou, but a government institution dedicated to putting out information about what really happened in May 1980. And they've collected oral histories, and for some reason, the first volumes were divided according to religion. They had a book on the Catholics, and then the Catholic Farmers League, Protestant male activist, Protestant female activist, another volume, Buddhist, and then non religious activists. And so what I plan to do now that I'm retired and have time to work through these thousands of pages of oral histories is try to first of all find out how ordinary people responded to the terror that was happening around them. And secondly, did religion in any way affect the way they responded? What I found in my research is remarkable. The only clerics in the city of Gwangju who were arrested after the army recovered the city were the Catholic priests. The leader of the Protestant leader of the YWCA was arrested, but no Protestant pastors were, I think because the progressive pastors had fled while the Catholics stayed. No Buddhist monks in the city were arrested. Buddhist monks were arrested later outside of Gwangju, and Protestant pastors were arrested in other parts of Korea. But at that point, there were only about 15,000 Catholics in all of Gwangju, and the population was 800,000. Thompson said. Why? Why do they arrest the Catholic priest? You know, There were only 10 Catholic priests in Gwangju. Korean Catholic priest and eight were arrested. Six were released pretty quickly, but two were kept for over a year. So that got me interested. How did religion affect how people responded to what was happening? Did it encourage them to resist? It encouraged them to try to end the violence, which, by the way, the Catholic priests were trying to mediate between the troops and the people, and that's why they were arrested. Did it encourage people to flee, to hide at home, to shelter the dissidents who were running away from the army? And so I'm an historian, primarily not a religious study scholar, but I'm interested in how religion affects what people do. I believe that how you act is partially determined by what you believe is the right way to act and the wrong way to act. And people tend to act in the way they think is right. And religion often tells you what is the right way to act. And so to understand how people have acted in the past, you should understand what they believe. And I hope to apply that idea to hopefully, a book about Gwangju. Again, I'm not going to look at what's called the citizens Militia, the young men who took up arms and fought back against the armed military and lost. I'm not going to write about the leaders of the civilian leaders of the resistance, those who didn't take over arms but were political activists. I want to write about the ordinary people and how they were politicized during those 10 days of terror, how they were brought out of a political stance into acting basically in defense of the lives of their fellow citizens of Gwangju, what they were doing. Most of the people I talked to didn't tell me they were fighting for democracy. They were fighting to stay alive and to keep their friends and family alive. And so I want to write about how religion affected how they did that. That's one of my plans.

[Leslie Hickman]

Wow. And it made me think about back in the colonial period, whenever, like March 1st happened and the rural religion played in how people organized or whether they organized. And I wonder if there's some sort of connection there as well, but that sounds really Fascinating to. So I look forward to that when it comes out. Maybe we can meet again then. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to discuss about the book or discuss about your relationship with Korea before we sign off?

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Well, I mean, you mentioned earlier that I published this book on Nasan Tong Ye Gyeong Korean Confusing the Bias and how to Be Moral. I've actually been studying him and his brothers for about 40 years. UBC University of British Columbia asked me to give a capstone lecture at the end of my last semester. And so I chose to talk about three brothers. Ta San Jong Yagyong is one of the most respected philosophers in Korean history. His brother, Yak Jun was, I call him a pioneering biologist. And then the third brother, Chung Yukjong, was a Catholic martyr, was beheaded in 1801 for being a Catholic. And Yag Yan were actually Catholics also, but they apostatized when the government started killing Catholics in 1791. One of the first martyrs was their cousin, Yin Chi Chung. And so I want to write more about them, make a whole book. They're fascinating characters. I call Yak Jun Korea's first biologist. Both he and Ta San were exiled because of their involvement with the Catholic Church. Because they were apostatized, they weren't killed like their brother. Ta San was lucky enough. He was exiled to the mainland not far from Gwangju, down in Toba Province. But Yak Jun was exiled to an island, Hoksan do, and he was there for 14 years. He died there. What do you do if you're a scholar on an island? What are you going to study? He studied fish. So he wrote the book about fish, about where you catch them, what their inner organs look like, how they survive. And a movie came out a few years ago, a feature film in Korea, not a documentary called A Book of Fish, about the life of Yak Jun. So he's fascinating. And then, of course, Yak Jong, who was the last of the three brothers to become a Catholic, but the one who stayed when the persecution started in 1791, is famous among Korean Catholics, not just because he was executed in 1801. His wife is a Canaanite saint. His son Chun Ha San, is a canonized saint. They were executed in the 1830s. He's now moving towards being a saint. He's not quite a saint yet. I think he will be canonized for too long. He's now what's called blessed, the next stage for being canonized by the Church. So, fascinating family. And what's interesting is Hasan wrote a lot. I have 37 volumes of his writing, all in classical Chinese. By the way, never wrote anything that we know of in Korean. Everything's in Chinese and includes what literally translates as self authored tombstone inscription. It's an autobiography. It's 60 pages of classical Chinese. It wouldn't fit on a tombstone. And he talks about his family and also his philosophy and his life. I want to translate that, but I also draw on. We have letters that Dhahsan wrote to Yak Jun. We don't have letters he wrote to Yak Zhong. He mentions Yak Zhong as the brother who got the rest of us in trouble. That's what he says about Yak Zhong. But I really want to explore Tasan's life and his brothers. But many Tasnim can have more information on him. Like I said, I have this 60 page autobiography and hundreds of pages of letters, including letters to his wife when he was in exile, to his sons, to his friends. And I'll call it the autobiography of a Confucian sage. And again, I think for Tahsan, Confucianism, we do definitely see religious elements in Ta Sang. He believed in a God. He doesn't use the Catholic word. He doesn't talk about God as a creator. He doesn't talk about God as sentencing us to hell or rewarding us with heaven after we die. But he believes there's a God in heaven who watches us. And he says it's important to know that God watches you because if you don't think God is watching you, then you'll do whatever you want to do. But if you know God is watching you, you'll do your best to act properly. So he's very unusual in a Confucian who believes in a God. Again, he used the old Chinese term for God, blood on high. He wrote one of his sons, be careful what you put in writing. He'll get you in trouble. So I didn't want to use the Celtic word for God. I mean, these guys are fascinating and maybe just translate Tarsin's autobiography, maybe write a history of the three brothers. I don't know. One thing about Korean history, as I'm sure you know. There's so much that needs to be explored in English. It's a fascinating history. A lot of work is being done in Korea, of course, but most of that's not available to people who don't read Korean. And it's important for us to. I mean, Korea deserves to be treated on an equal level with Chinese and Japanese. Civilization, It's a distinctive civilization, has been for over 2000 years. So we need to get more stuff in English out there. And I think also Korean religion needs to be better known. Most North Americans assume, I think, that most Koreans are Protestant Christians, because in North America, in Canada and the U.S. about 70 to 80% of Koreans are Protestant Christians. But in Korea, it's about 20% most people in Korea now. So they have no religion, although they go to temples, they say not Buddhists, but they go to Buddhist temples. And so I think it's important. I'm now 80 years old, but my father worked until he was 95, so if I can keep working for another 15 years, I want to keep working on publications that let people in the English language world know more about Korea and what an exciting place it is. That's. I hope, anyway.

[Leslie Hickman]

Yeah, I commend that hope. That's wonderful. I'm really interested in the brothers because I read a little bit about them, but really, I just know a little from the book by Kim Hoon. He wrote about Hookson, so he wrote about Hykseon do, but it's fiction. So. Yeah, that sounds really fascinating to me.

[Dr. Donald Baker]

If you go to Hukseon do, by the way, if you go out there, they're very proud of the fact they were an exile site and they restored Yak Jan's hut. But there's an exile experience Park. I'm making that up. It's Yubae Munwa Kongwan. So you too can experience what it's like to be in exile.

[Leslie Hickman]

Do they lock you up there for a month or what did they do? That's really interesting.

[Dr. Donald Baker]

I think you can sit inside.

[Leslie Hickman]

Okay. Just pretend lots of time is going by. Yeah, that's fascinating. Thank you so much for this really rich conversation. And, you know, I congrats again on this splendid career and the new book, and I wish you best on your future endeavors.

[Dr. Donald Baker]

Thank you very much. I enjoy talking with you.

[New Books Network Host]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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