New Books Network: Interview with Dorothy Armstrong
Book Discussed: Threads of Empire: A History of the World in Twelve Carpets (St. Martin's Press, 2025)
Host: Morteza Hajizadeh
Guest: Dorothy Armstrong
Date: September 10, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode features a conversation with Dorothy Armstrong, historian of material culture specializing in South, Central, and West Asia. The discussion centers around her new book, Threads of Empire: A History of the World in Twelve Carpets, which explores global history through the lens of twelve significant carpets. Covering issues of power, identity, artistry, and the often-obscured voices of women weavers, Armstrong and the host reflect on the multifaceted social, political, and aesthetic roles that carpets have played from antiquity to the present.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Armstrong’s Personal and Academic Journey
- Early Influence: Carpets entered Armstrong’s life serendipitously, sparking questions about origins and histories that wouldn’t let go.
“The interest began by living with carpets that came into my life in a serendipitous way, as they do with many people.” – Armstrong [03:17]
- Academic Path: Armstrong retrained academically, earning a diploma in Islamic Art History (SOAS), and then an MA and PhD focused on Asian art and carpets at the V&A.
“I started off as an enthusiast, and I retrained myself academically. And that brings us up to today.” – Armstrong [04:24]
Cultural Perspectives: The Meaning and Use of Carpets
- Respect and Symbolism: In many Middle Eastern cultures, carpets are more than decorative objects—they are art forms intertwined with identity, status, and respect.
“That respect is not just to do with questions of hygiene... It is also a question of respect. Somebody has made something with a great deal of craft and intention ... and you don't just walk across it, do you?” – Armstrong [06:00]
- Power Display: In the West, depictions of monarchs standing on carpets in paintings often symbolized dominance and authority, not always appreciation.
“...Those usually are propagandist paintings with the intention of showing dominance.” – Armstrong [07:07]
Selection Criteria for the Twelve Carpets
- Armstrong’s choices were driven by a desire to spotlight carpets with rich historical “biographies,” offering windows into different eras, empires, and geographies—not just “the best” or most famous pieces.
“I wanted to write about carpets that had had a particularly rich historical life that would tell us about how the world had turned. So I wasn't looking for the best carpets.” – Armstrong [08:47]
- Each carpet aligns with three key historical/geographical axes:
- Movements of Turkic peoples
- Early modern global empires (e.g., Safavid, Mughal, Ottoman)
- Peak of European colonialism
- The selection balances “famous” carpets (e.g., Ardabil) with humble, everyday artifacts.
Carpets, Power, and Symbolism
- Displays of Authority: From Henry VIII’s portrait to contemporary prestige, carpets have long conveyed power, wealth, and connections across continents.
“...To get a fantastically rare Ottoman carpet, or a ... beautiful, rare, expensive silk ... was a propaganda act, a demonstration of your authority.” – Armstrong [14:55]
- Producers and Consumers: A significant gulf exists between humble, often anonymous weavers—usually women in rural areas—and powerful individuals who owned or displayed their work.
Recovering Women’s and Anonymous Labor
- Historical Challenge: Traditional, text-based history marginalizes the poor, illiterate, and especially women and children.
“If you have a historical tradition, which we do, that depends on texts, you automatically exclude the illiterate, the poor and women, and you exclude children, actually.” – Armstrong [21:10]
- Object-Based History: Armstrong’s method triangulates fieldwork, technical analysis, and archival research to reconstruct voices and working conditions of women weavers.
“Close attention to the object does imaginatively transport you into the world that they lived in.” – Armstrong [22:25]
- Imaginative Triangulation: Understanding carpet technique can reveal collaborative work and daily realities, e.g., “lazy lines” indicating multiple weavers working together.
The Ardabil Carpet: Devotion and Power
- Twin Carpet Legacy: The Ardabil carpets (now split between the V&A in London and LACMA in LA) were crafted for both devotional and political purposes during Safavid rule.
“So you've got carpets that are woven to be ecstatic, to inspire spirituality. Then you have two of them and they're huge and they're in a new and beautiful part of the old mosque ... And then you have the Shah greeting visitors from abroad.” – Armstrong [29:27]
- The carpets fuse imperial grandeur with spiritual significance, serving as both religious inspiration and as testament to Safavid power.
Carpets as Agents of Ideology
- Propaganda and Protest: Examples range from European churches displaying “Islamic” carpets to Afghan war carpets depicting tanks and airplanes.
“They carried on weaving. ... And since they no longer had a great industry in ... weaving Bokhara carpets ... they turned their hand to expressing what was happening around them. So we get carpets with tanks, we get carpets with flags, we get carpets with bombers, we get carpets with dead people on them.” – Armstrong [32:09]
- Complex Agency: Sometimes, these so-called “war carpets” reflected local trauma; in other cases, outside art market interventions shaped what was woven.
- Cultural Contention: In places like Azerbaijan and Armenia, carpets become sites of nationalistic rivalry, with ownership and origins hotly contested.
Carpets, Epic Literature, and Cultural Legitimacy in Iran
- Epic Symbolism: Safavid rulers tied their legitimacy to ancient Persian heritage by having carpets depict scenes from the Shahnameh, Iran's national epic poem.
“A lot of what we know about early Iranian carpets ... comes from the illustrations in the Shahnameh.” – Armstrong [38:26]
- Enduring Intimacy: Figurative carpets continue to knot together “modern life and the ancient culture of Iran” for ordinary people.
The Pazyryk Carpet – Ancient Craft, Modern Bias
- Archaeological Marvel: The Pazyryk carpet, the world’s oldest hand-knotted rug (ca. 500 BCE), was discovered in a Scythian tomb in Siberia.
“It was made probably around 500 BCE. We're talking two and a half thousand years ago ... not a carpet that shouts, I am at the beginning of a tradition ... It's a fully realized, extremely sophisticated, extremely beautiful carpet.” – Armstrong [44:01]
- Narrative Misconceptions: For decades, scholars insisted it must be Iranian, unable to accept that a nomadic community could produce such sophistication.
“There was a huge resistance to believing this because ... a theory had emerged ... that carpet weaving reached its aesthetic peak in the 16th century in Iran with carpets like the Ardabil carpet.” – Armstrong [50:51]
- Undercurrent of Bias: Armstrong draws parallels with modern prejudices against non-written, “young” cultures, such as Australian Aboriginal art.
Carpets and Imperial Projection: Ottomans and Global Trade
- Economic Machine: The Ottoman Empire, at its height, exported carpets across Eurasia, projecting both economic and spiritual power.
“The big thing for the Ottomans about carpets was that further east in Asia and further west into Europe, people loved them. The Ottomans could sell carpets across the entirety of Eurasia, and they did. So carpets for them were about economic power.” – Armstrong [58:20]
- Transylvanian Carpets: Muslim prayer carpets made in Anatolia ended up decorating Protestant churches in Romania, symbolizing complex transcultural exchanges.
“For some reason, the Lutherans love them. But they're prayer rugs ... and they're in these Lutheran ... churches. And you do wonder both about the spiritual resonance of this ...” – Armstrong [60:12]
- Iconography and Art: Carpets featured in Renaissance and elite portraiture, as props signifying both worldly status and church power.
Modern Representations & Continued Legacies
- Carpets remain prestige symbols in contemporary culture, e.g., the Ardabil replica at 10 Downing Street (UK Prime Minister’s residence) or classic British cinema.
“There's a wonderful scene where Mrs. Thatcher ... brings a dignitary into Downing street ... And it's a replica of the Ardabille carpet. And it does indeed lie in the reception room at Downing Street.” – Armstrong [68:55]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Carpets and Power:
“To get a fantastically rare Ottoman carpet ... was a propaganda act, a demonstration of your authority.” – Armstrong [14:55]
- On Recovering Women’s Labor:
“I hope they come away with a huge respect for those women who, whatever the weather, whatever the circumstances, carried on just weaving their carpets.” – Armstrong [72:15]
- On Ancient Nomadic Sophistication:
“It’s a fully realized, extremely sophisticated, extremely beautiful carpet ... This conviction ... that settled communities with writing were superior ... We're not so sure about this as we used to be...” – Armstrong [50:00, 55:17]
- On the Impossibility of Textual History:
“Texts are not left by nomadic peoples. They're rarely left by women until very recent times ... One of the reasons I have written the book in the way that I have, which is from the objects rather than from texts...” – Armstrong [21:13]
- On Lasting Impact:
“Carpets can make memory live, and they can make past parts of your own culture come back to life for you in a very intimate and domestic way.” – Armstrong [41:36]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [03:17] Armstrong’s entry into carpet history and material culture
- [08:47] Criteria for selecting the twelve carpets
- [12:33] Carpets as authority, political and religious symbols
- [21:10] Recovering the hidden narratives of women weavers
- [25:50] The Ardabil carpet: devotional and political meanings
- [31:34] Carpets as agents of ideology, war carpets, and propaganda
- [38:26] Shahnameh and the function of narrative in carpets
- [43:42] The Pazyryk carpet and the sophistication of nomadic societies
- [57:43] Ottoman use of carpets for power and trade
- [65:42] Carpets in European art and cultural exchange
- [72:09] Armstrong’s hopes for readers: respect for women weavers
Conclusion
Dorothy Armstrong’s discussion with Morteza Hajizadeh provides a vivid, wide-ranging journey through global history—guided by the stories, artistry, and politics of twelve remarkable carpets. The episode invites listeners to view carpets not just as objects of beauty, but as complex artifacts layered with imperial ambition, personal craftsmanship, and the often-unacknowledged labor of women. Listeners are encouraged to shift their perspectives on both history and everyday material culture.