Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: "Edward Stanley et. al., A North American Tour Journal 1824-1825: The Making of a Prime Minister"

Date: September 6, 2025
Host: Dr. Charles Coutillo
Guests: Caroline, Countess of Derby & Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy

Overall Theme

This episode explores the newly published "A North American Tour Journal 1824-1825: The Making of a Prime Minister," which presents the travel writings of Edward Geoffrey Stanley, later the 14th Earl of Derby and three-time British Prime Minister. Editors Caroline, Countess of Derby, and Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy discuss Stanley's observations, how his experiences shaped his politics, and the crucial historical context the journal provides for early 19th-century Anglo-American relations and transatlantic perceptions.

Key Discussion Points

1. Discovery and Importance of the Travel Journals

• Context of Discovery: The journals were discovered by Lady Derby at Knowsley Hall during COVID lockdown, highlighting the continuing richness of estate archives.
  “It’s a project that keeps giving back. The collection just keeps giving back. And we find more and more really interesting source documents in the library.” (Caroline, 02:49)
• Significance: These notes, previously unknown, provide vital context for Stanley’s European diaries and his growth as a statesman.

2. The Stanley Earls of Derby: Historical Impact

• Family Overview: The Stanleys have played significant roles across British history—military, political, and cultural (e.g., Battle of Bosworth, horse racing, political reform, Stanley Cup).
  • Example: 1st Earl put the crown on Henry VII's head; later Earls were patrons of Shakespeare and involved in British politics and international affairs.
    (Caroline, 03:44)

3. Stanley’s Motivation for North American Tour

• Personal Circumstances: Stanley traveled partly to “forget” a romance disapproved of by his family, but also out of genuine political curiosity—specifically about immigration to Canada amid Irish poverty, and broader democratic developments.
  • “His grandfather decided that he should go to America...he wanted to see whether encouraged immigration to Canada actually worked...” (Caroline, 08:08)

4. Travel Companions and Context

• Companions: Three university friends and Members of Parliament–Henry Labouchere, John Evelyn Denison, and John Stuart Wortley—accompanied Stanley, illustrating the trip’s political and social significance.
  • “They all had very distinguished careers afterwards in government, but at the time they were very young, they were only 24 or 25.” (Caroline, 11:01)
• Travel Hardships: The tour was arduous, involving rough travel conditions and physical endurance.

5. Stanley's Observations and Attitudes

• Openness to America: Stanley approached America with curiosity, viewing its democracy, liberty, infrastructure, education, and commerce as potential models for Britain.
  • “He very much feels that all sorts of things that he sees in America...are very important to bring back to his life in the United Kingdom...” (Caroline, 12:35)
• Whiggish Perspective: His impressions were shaped by his Whig upbringing—admiring American republicanism and liberty, though not favoring abolition of monarchy or church.
  • “His view was extremely Whiggish...” (O’Shaughnessy, 14:59)

6. Route and Structure of the Tour

• Typical Itinerary: Stanley’s route—arriving in New York, traveling to Canada, then Washington—became standard for later observers like de Tocqueville and Dickens (16:15).
• Canada vs. America: Stanley was pessimistic about Canada’s prospects under British rule, favoring the American model’s vibrancy.
  • “He says that while Canada is under British government it will never succeed and flourish like America.” (O’Shaughnessy, 17:41)

7. Political and Social Observations

• Politics: Stanley found American political oratory verbose and Congress inefficient, but was impressed by orators like Daniel Webster and John C. Calhoun (22:31).
  • “He was critical of American oratory. He thought it was too verbose...” (O’Shaughnessy, 22:31)
• Vivid Personalities: The journal contains candid and colorful depictions of leading American figures.
  • “He talks about them in a very juicy way.” (Caroline, 24:09)

8. Encounter with Slavery

• Direct Witness: Stanley’s reactions to slavery were strongly negative and empathetic, rare for a British aristocrat at that moment.
  • “He says that slavery is a stain on humanity. And one day he writes in 1824 that this country could have a black president.” (Caroline, 24:57)
• Context: Growing British anti-slavery sentiment developed especially after such firsthand accounts from travelers (O’Shaughnessy, 27:29).

9. Notable Meetings

• John Adams: Stanley was charmed and impressed by the former President’s manners and French, and amused by Adams’ self-deprecating anecdotes.
  • “Washington was very clever because he had bad teeth. He never opened his mouth or smile and he said that’s why he was successful and I was not. I was always opening my mouth...” (O’Shaughnessy, 28:57)
• John Quincy Adams: Stanley regarded the son as pompous and untrustworthy, puzzlingly so, despite overt hospitality.
  • “He found John Quincy Adams pompous and worse still, he felt he was not trustworthy and that he never looked you in the eye...” (O’Shaughnessy, 29:40)

10. Departure and Impact

• Abrupt Return: Stanley left America abruptly after receiving family permission to marry Emma, leaving his friends confused and plans for post-inauguration travel abandoned.
  • “He didn’t tell his companions what had happened or why he was going back... They were very disappointed that he suddenly left.” (O’Shaughnessy, 32:54)

11. Legacy and Political Influence

• Political Growth: The experience had a “seminal” effect, influencing Stanley’s later abolitionist stance, educational reforms in Ireland, and positions as a Prime Minister.
  • “Everything he saw...he then brought back into his political legacy.” (Caroline, 34:07)
• Historical Judgment: Disraeli’s comment at Stanley’s statue underscored his legacy in education, abolition, and parliamentary reform.
  • “He educated Ireland, he abolished slavery and reformed Parliament...” (Caroline, 36:17)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Love and Travel:
  “His grandfather...said...go and cool yourself off and forget about Emma. But of course that didn’t happen, not to do a spoiler alert...” (Caroline, 08:08)
• On Slavery:
  “He says that slavery is a stain on humanity. And one day he writes in 1824 that this country could have a black president. So that’s a remarkable thing to write in 1824.” (Caroline, 24:57)
• On Historical Perspective:
  “The great thing about this journal is that it is so broad and really gives you a sense of being saturated in the history of that time.” (O’Shaughnessy, 38:25)
• On Hope:
  “I’ve published it because when I was reading it...gave me hope after quite a dark time of COVID. And it also put me into a community of historians who were so generous with their knowledge...” (Caroline, 36:51)

Key Timestamps

• 02:49: Discovery of the journals
• 03:44: Stanley family’s role in British history
• 08:08: Motivations for Stanley’s North American trip
• 11:01: The significance of Stanley’s traveling companions
• 14:59: Whiggish perspective in Stanley’s outlook
• 17:41: Stanley’s assessment of Canada vs. the US
• 22:31: Critique of American politics and oratory
• 24:57: Stanley’s forthright condemnation of slavery
• 28:29 / 29:40: Impressions of John Adams and John Quincy Adams
• 32:54: Abrupt departure from America explained
• 34:07: The journals’ impact on Stanley’s political legacy
• 36:51: Hope and humanity as the book’s central lessons
• 38:25: The journal’s breadth and historical immersion

Takeaways

• For Readers: The journal offers a rare, first-hand perspective on North America in the 1820s and its effects on a future British Prime Minister.
• For Historians: It’s a trove of candid observations on politics, society, race, religion, and daily life—valuable for understanding transatlantic thinking on democracy, empire, and reform.
• For All: Stanley’s journey illustrates the power of curiosity, empathy, and direct engagement with the world to inform moral and political leadership, offering lessons of hope and humanity.