Edward Stanley et. al., "A North American Tour Journal 1824-1825: The Making of a Prime Minister" (Sutton Publishing, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: "Edward Stanley et. al., A North American Tour Journal 1824-1825: The Making of a Prime Minister"

Date: September 6, 2025
Host: Dr. Charles Coutillo
Guests: Caroline, Countess of Derby & Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy

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Overall Theme

This episode explores the newly published "A North American Tour Journal 1824-1825: The Making of a Prime Minister," which presents the travel writings of Edward Geoffrey Stanley, later the 14th Earl of Derby and three-time British Prime Minister. Editors Caroline, Countess of Derby, and Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy discuss Stanley's observations, how his experiences shaped his politics, and the crucial historical context the journal provides for early 19th-century Anglo-American relations and transatlantic perceptions.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Discovery and Importance of the Travel Journals

• Context of Discovery: The journals were discovered by Lady Derby at Knowsley Hall during COVID lockdown, highlighting the continuing richness of estate archives.
  “It’s a project that keeps giving back. The collection just keeps giving back. And we find more and more really interesting source documents in the library.” (Caroline, 02:49)
• Significance: These notes, previously unknown, provide vital context for Stanley’s European diaries and his growth as a statesman.

2. The Stanley Earls of Derby: Historical Impact

• Family Overview: The Stanleys have played significant roles across British history—military, political, and cultural (e.g., Battle of Bosworth, horse racing, political reform, Stanley Cup).
  • Example: 1st Earl put the crown on Henry VII's head; later Earls were patrons of Shakespeare and involved in British politics and international affairs.
    (Caroline, 03:44)

3. Stanley’s Motivation for North American Tour

• Personal Circumstances: Stanley traveled partly to “forget” a romance disapproved of by his family, but also out of genuine political curiosity—specifically about immigration to Canada amid Irish poverty, and broader democratic developments.
  • “His grandfather decided that he should go to America...he wanted to see whether encouraged immigration to Canada actually worked...” (Caroline, 08:08)

4. Travel Companions and Context

• Companions: Three university friends and Members of Parliament–Henry Labouchere, John Evelyn Denison, and John Stuart Wortley—accompanied Stanley, illustrating the trip’s political and social significance.
  • “They all had very distinguished careers afterwards in government, but at the time they were very young, they were only 24 or 25.” (Caroline, 11:01)
• Travel Hardships: The tour was arduous, involving rough travel conditions and physical endurance.

5. Stanley's Observations and Attitudes

• Openness to America: Stanley approached America with curiosity, viewing its democracy, liberty, infrastructure, education, and commerce as potential models for Britain.
  • “He very much feels that all sorts of things that he sees in America...are very important to bring back to his life in the United Kingdom...” (Caroline, 12:35)
• Whiggish Perspective: His impressions were shaped by his Whig upbringing—admiring American republicanism and liberty, though not favoring abolition of monarchy or church.
  • “His view was extremely Whiggish...” (O’Shaughnessy, 14:59)

6. Route and Structure of the Tour

• Typical Itinerary: Stanley’s route—arriving in New York, traveling to Canada, then Washington—became standard for later observers like de Tocqueville and Dickens (16:15).
• Canada vs. America: Stanley was pessimistic about Canada’s prospects under British rule, favoring the American model’s vibrancy.
  • “He says that while Canada is under British government it will never succeed and flourish like America.” (O’Shaughnessy, 17:41)

7. Political and Social Observations

• Politics: Stanley found American political oratory verbose and Congress inefficient, but was impressed by orators like Daniel Webster and John C. Calhoun (22:31).
  • “He was critical of American oratory. He thought it was too verbose...” (O’Shaughnessy, 22:31)
• Vivid Personalities: The journal contains candid and colorful depictions of leading American figures.
  • “He talks about them in a very juicy way.” (Caroline, 24:09)

8. Encounter with Slavery

• Direct Witness: Stanley’s reactions to slavery were strongly negative and empathetic, rare for a British aristocrat at that moment.
  • “He says that slavery is a stain on humanity. And one day he writes in 1824 that this country could have a black president.” (Caroline, 24:57)
• Context: Growing British anti-slavery sentiment developed especially after such firsthand accounts from travelers (O’Shaughnessy, 27:29).

9. Notable Meetings

• John Adams: Stanley was charmed and impressed by the former President’s manners and French, and amused by Adams’ self-deprecating anecdotes.
  • “Washington was very clever because he had bad teeth. He never opened his mouth or smile and he said that’s why he was successful and I was not. I was always opening my mouth...” (O’Shaughnessy, 28:57)
• John Quincy Adams: Stanley regarded the son as pompous and untrustworthy, puzzlingly so, despite overt hospitality.
  • “He found John Quincy Adams pompous and worse still, he felt he was not trustworthy and that he never looked you in the eye...” (O’Shaughnessy, 29:40)

10. Departure and Impact

• Abrupt Return: Stanley left America abruptly after receiving family permission to marry Emma, leaving his friends confused and plans for post-inauguration travel abandoned.
  • “He didn’t tell his companions what had happened or why he was going back... They were very disappointed that he suddenly left.” (O’Shaughnessy, 32:54)

11. Legacy and Political Influence

• Political Growth: The experience had a “seminal” effect, influencing Stanley’s later abolitionist stance, educational reforms in Ireland, and positions as a Prime Minister.
  • “Everything he saw...he then brought back into his political legacy.” (Caroline, 34:07)
• Historical Judgment: Disraeli’s comment at Stanley’s statue underscored his legacy in education, abolition, and parliamentary reform.
  • “He educated Ireland, he abolished slavery and reformed Parliament...” (Caroline, 36:17)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Love and Travel:
  “His grandfather...said...go and cool yourself off and forget about Emma. But of course that didn’t happen, not to do a spoiler alert...” (Caroline, 08:08)
• On Slavery:
  “He says that slavery is a stain on humanity. And one day he writes in 1824 that this country could have a black president. So that’s a remarkable thing to write in 1824.” (Caroline, 24:57)
• On Historical Perspective:
  “The great thing about this journal is that it is so broad and really gives you a sense of being saturated in the history of that time.” (O’Shaughnessy, 38:25)
• On Hope:
  “I’ve published it because when I was reading it...gave me hope after quite a dark time of COVID. And it also put me into a community of historians who were so generous with their knowledge...” (Caroline, 36:51)

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Key Timestamps

• 02:49: Discovery of the journals
• 03:44: Stanley family’s role in British history
• 08:08: Motivations for Stanley’s North American trip
• 11:01: The significance of Stanley’s traveling companions
• 14:59: Whiggish perspective in Stanley’s outlook
• 17:41: Stanley’s assessment of Canada vs. the US
• 22:31: Critique of American politics and oratory
• 24:57: Stanley’s forthright condemnation of slavery
• 28:29 / 29:40: Impressions of John Adams and John Quincy Adams
• 32:54: Abrupt departure from America explained
• 34:07: The journals’ impact on Stanley’s political legacy
• 36:51: Hope and humanity as the book’s central lessons
• 38:25: The journal’s breadth and historical immersion

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Takeaways

• For Readers: The journal offers a rare, first-hand perspective on North America in the 1820s and its effects on a future British Prime Minister.
• For Historians: It’s a trove of candid observations on politics, society, race, religion, and daily life—valuable for understanding transatlantic thinking on democracy, empire, and reform.
• For All: Stanley’s journey illustrates the power of curiosity, empathy, and direct engagement with the world to inform moral and political leadership, offering lessons of hope and humanity.

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Transcript

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[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Foreign.

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Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

Good day.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Welcome to New Books in History, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. My name is Dr. Charles Coutillo. I'm a host on the channel and today we are pleased and indeed honored to have with us two special guests, Caroline, the Countess of Derby, and Professor Andrew o'. Shaughnessy. The Countess of Derby hardly needs any introduction. However, we will try. Since she became involved in the Derby estate by her marriage to the 19th Earl, she has consistently endeavored to bring to the British public the great history of the Stanley Earls of Derby, the Historic House at Knowsley Professor Sean o' Shaughnessy is a professor of History at the University of Virginia. He is, without a doubt one of the leading scholars on the subject of the American War of Independence. The book that we are dealing with today is titled A North American Tour Journal 18241825 the Making of a Prime Minister Edward Jeffrey Stanley, edited by the Countess of Derby and Lisa A. Frank Villa, with an extensive and highly informative induction by Professor o', Shaughnessy, Professor Jeannie Grant Moore and is published in. The book is published by Alan Sutton. Welcome, Lady Darby. Professor o', Shaughnessy, thank you.

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Thank you so much for having us on this podcast. Dr. Coutinho, it's a real pleasure to be here.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Thank you. Why do you see the need to have edited and published these notes?

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Well, the notes are particularly important for the travel journals of the second book I published, because they put the travel journals into context and they hadn't been found before. Rather like the European diaries hadn't been found. I was left in lockdown in Knowsley hall, pretty much on my own, because everyone was furloughed and I just sort of rummaged around the cupboards and we kept finding things. And I was lucky enough to have a very distinguished curator then, Dr. Stephen Lloyd, who was helping me, and it was just wonderful to discover it. It's a project that keeps giving back. The collection just keeps giving back. And we find more and more really interesting source documents in the library.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Can you tell the audience a little bit about the Stanley's Earls of Derby and their illustrious place in British history?

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

That is quite difficult to sum up in a short podcast, because there's 19 generations of them and they are an extraordinary group. And it wasn't just the men, it was also the women who were really amazing. But if you talk about the first Earl of Derby, he was instrumental in the Battle of Bosworth, swapping sides, so that he actually put the crown on his stepson's head at the Battle of Bosworth, because his stepson was Henry Tudor, who later became King Henry vii, even though he worked for the King as steward, King Richard iii. So he was completely critical. And that importance in national politics and wars has been critical to the family's, not just importance, but also their finances, because as soon as you become important to a monarch at that, you got quite a lot of revenue from that. So the 1st Earl was 1st and 7th were very involved in war, plus the 17th was Secretary of State for War. The 3rd, 4th and 5th Earl, they were all patrons of Shakespeare. The 7th Earl of Derby, he was again involved in the war and had his head cut off for being. He was very loyal to Charles I and Charles ii. He actually hid Charles II at Boscobel, and so he lost his head for that. The 10th Earl of Derby, who's really important for getting the collection started, 12th Earl of Derby started the famous horse race, the Derby, that you call. And then the 13th Earl of Derby was a bibliophile and collector of natural history, watercolors. 14th Earl of Derby we're talking about here. 15th Earl of Derby, Secretary of. He was Foreign Secretary and very involved in the Crimean War. 16th Earl of Derby, he was Governor General in Canada and he started the Stanley Cup. 17th Earl of Derby. He did a lot in the Second World War and was quite involved in appeasement, but then realized that there was absolutely no conversation to be had with Adolf Hitler and realized and was very important actually in turning appeasement down because people were so determined not to go to war that they were in consultation. And it was the 17th Earl of Derby who actually got to know Ribbentrop and said that there is no going forward on this and I'm married to the Nytics Earl of Derby. So that's where we are.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Thank you. Would it be true to say that up to the time of Stanley's tour of North America that there had not been this sort of travel writing that became so popular in the UK in terms of North America in the 1830s, 1840s. Of course, I'm thinking specifically about Lady Trollope. I'm sorry, Trollope. Mrs. Trollope and Charles Dickens.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

Actually, I'd say that there has been an earlier tradition of travel writing in America. People like the Marquis de Chastelou.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Even.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

Former enslaved man Orlando Equiano. So there are great accounts of America by English and foreign visitors in the 18th century, but it was certainly becoming more popular in this period. And you have two of the first really good feminist accounts of America. One of them was Francis Wright, about the same period as Darby. And of course Du Topville's famous Democracy in America was based on a trip that was shortly after Darby's. And both of them are around the same age. And we make a lot of comparisons in the introduction between them.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

What were the personal circumstances that led to Stanley to undertake what was by no means a carefree and trouble free tour of North America?

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Well, he'd been traveling in Europe in 1820-22 and that was a book that we found in the library. And I published that shortly after Covid. And it was a total joy because obviously you hadn't been allowed to travel in Covid. And I took these manuscripts off and just wandered around where he'd gone. And he couldn't go through France because it was just after the Napoleonic War. So it was Switzerland, Germany and Italy. And there can be no better antidote than being locked up in Covid than going on a wonderful tour around Europe looking at really beautiful things, which is what that Grand Tour Journal of Europe was when he came back in 1822, he came back to Knowsley and of course, because he was a great heir, he was made to go to a lot of coming out parties to meet girls of a suitable age range and to be his wife. And he unfortunately fell in love with somebody who was a Tory and she was called Emma Bootle Wilbraham, and she was in fact a lovely, clever and wonderful girl. But the family then were Whigs, which is W H I G rather than W I G, which was a more liberal party then. And his grandfather decided that this was not a family, that he wanted his grandson to Marion too. So he decided that he should go to America because there was so much to see over there. And he was very interested, actually, the 14th Earl, as a young man in poverty in Ireland, because the family had this estate called Balakistine and there were loads of problems in Ireland then and now, but poverty was a huge, huge problem then. And he'd spent time in these family estates and he wanted to see whether the encouraged immigration to Canada actually worked, because he saw that there was this encouraged immigration and he wanted to go and see whether it actually worked. And that was part of it too. It was also because his grandfather said, go and cool yourself off and forget about Emma. But of course that didn't happen, not to do a spoiler alert, but the grandfather, the 12th Earl, said, no, you mustn't keep in touch with her at all. You've got to have a clean break. But he did manage to keep in touch with her because love always finds a way. And he kept in touch with her by writing to her mother. And then Emma kept in touch with Edward, young Edward, because she wrote to his traveling companions, who were the gentlemen.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Who came with him on this tour.

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

There were three other friends who'd been at university with him at Christchurch. They were all aristocrats and also all members of Parliament, because at that point, in order to have the vote and therefore get into government, you had to own property. So the people who had democratically elected at the time were all aristocrats. So there was Henry Labouchere, who became Baron Taunton. There was John Evelyn denison, who became 1st Viscount Ossington, and John Stuart Wortley, who was 2nd Baron Wharncliffe. And they all had very distinguished careers afterwards in government. But at the time they were very young, they were only 24 or 25. And it was sort of seen as a diplomatic mission. The fact that four members of the Parliament went to America and it was very arduous. It was very physically demanding because they were traveling by stagecoach, they were having to ride often. They the forms of transport were so uncomfortable, they got out and walked. But they were very intrepid, they were very curious, all four of them. And we found some of their correspondence. Andrew's been on a mission around the countryside in England looking for their correspondence, because we don't have their correspondence here. So he's done that.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

What, if anything, were Stanley's pre existing opinions of the United States?

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Well, we don't actually know what his pre existing opinions were because he wrote these travel journals as he was going. But what he does say in the very, very beginning is that America has a lot to offer and that it is a very advanced democracy, even though it's a young country. So he very much feels that all sorts of things that he sees in America and Canada are very important to bring back to his life in the United Kingdom when he comes back, you know, he's very curious and interested in democracy and liberty, slavery, he's very interested in environment and the construction of bridges, he's interested in the education there, trade, economics. And he feels that what he's seen could have a significant contribution to 19th century life in the Empire.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

The opening reminds me very much of de Tocqueville in arguing that people are insufficiently aware of America and that this could be a very important example to Europe, not least as it was pioneering a system of republican government. And so the real parallels there, what I find surprising is that both he and de Tocqueville were really quite open minded at a time when a lot of Europeans tended to be extremely critical without actually having visited America. But he was writing only shortly after a second war between Britain and America, the war of 1812-1815. And that was succeeded by what's sometimes called the paper wars between Britain and America, where a lot of British writers were exceptionally critical of America.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

To what degree did Stanley's response to the conditions he found in America reflect a Whiggish point of view?

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

Yes, well, his view was extremely Whiggish. The Whigs traditionally was the party in England that claimed to have launched and defended the revolution of 1688 against the monarchy. And they saw themselves as the defenders of English liberty, some of the leading families in Britain, and they were much more sympathetic to America than those of a more Tory disposition. In fact, America to radical Whigs was almost what they would have loved Britain to have become, although mainstream Whigs like Stanley were not keen to get rid of monarchy or the established church. But they could See, there are a lot of admirable features of the United States and they could see that there could be examples here to be imitated by Britain.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Was there any particular rhyme or reason as to the arrangement of the tour? Why for example first go to New York and then Canada with Washington D.C. being only at the end of the tour?

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

It was very much the same tour that was later followed by de Tocqueville and by Dickens. So it seems as though this was a sauteur route that was suggested by Americans. They often corresponded with the same people up in Boston. New York of course was the easiest harbor to arrive in. And there was an increasing traffic between Liverpool and New York in the period that Derby traveled. Derby specifically wanted to go to Canada for the reasons Lady Derby mentioned earlier to see the possibilities there for Irish immigration. But interestingly so did the other visitors who would later write specifically about America. But they also made a point of visiting Canada.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

What was Stanley's opinion of Canada? It would be true to say that compared to the United States he was not very optimistic about his future, particularly French Canada.

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

I'm going to leave Andrew to answer that. That's his expertise.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

That is correct. In fact he makes a fascinating comment. He says that while Canada is under British government it will never succeed and flourish like America. And interestingly he was not to great proponent of imperial expansion or even particularly an enthusiast for the British Empire. He was very different from his protege in this respect, Benjamin Disraeli. He saw the dangers of over expansion and as Prime Minister he did not pursue imperial was he did see some possibilities in Canada. What interested him most was that Canada had two established churches, both the Anglican Church of England but also the Catholic Church in lower Canada. And he saw that as maybe a possible solution to the difficulties of Ireland. Although he believed in having a traditional state church. He was also very much an advocate of religious toleration and was keen to find ways that these religions could coexist.

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

I mean I think he was so ahead of his time because he'd worked out that if, if children play together they're less likely to fight. And you know, that's always been a very important distinction in Ireland. And in fact he did that 40 years, didn't he Andrew before it was ever done in England to have Catholic and Protestant primary education as non denominational.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

That's correct. You know, in Ireland he sets up a school system for both. Sorry for both Catholics and Protestants.

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

And I think he also stops the Catholics having to pay tithes to the Protestant churches which was a terrible thing at that time, but he actually saw that that was the wrong thing for somebody to do. Of course you support your own church, but it seemed unnecessary to him to support another religion. And he's very clear on religious boundaries. And that happens later on with the Jewish Relief act, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a minute.

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[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Would it be true? Say that Stanley had a mixed view of the nature of local American politics and that for him most of the personalities involved with it tend to be rather pedestrian.

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

That's a minefield. That question. I'm going to let Andrew navigate that one.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

He was critical of American oratory. He thought it was too verbose and also critical of how long it took for Congress to make decisions and the length of debates. There were individuals who really impressed him. One was Daniel Webster, who's regarded as one of the great orators in America. And another, surprisingly, was John C. Calhoun, who today we think of as the father of secession in South Carolina. But you will find that a lot of people thought that Calhoun might one day be president before he soured and lost his patience with national politics. And certainly something like the American political tradition by Hofstadter gives John C. Calhoun as one of the greatest figures of the age because he was such a thinker and such a good orator. And the Tour Journal is like a who's who of America because he seems to meet everyone who was anyone and of course it's a fervor source of information about them.

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

And that's the wonderful thing, Andrew, isn't it, that not only does he have a ringside seat of American politics at that time, he talks about them in a very juicy way. He doesn't hold back and I love his descriptions of some of the characters and I don't know of another book at that time which gives such vivid descriptions and eyewitness accounts. And he doesn't hold back. He says the House of Representatives is dirty, which is, you know, it's very charming.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Well, point well taken. Would it be accurate to say that Stanley was horrified by what he saw of American slavery? And how common a response was that for someone of his background in class?

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Well, don't forget that the British had slavery in the British Empire. So he wasn't coming from a point of saying that it was a bad thing of the country to do, the Americas to do. The British did it as well and they actually still had them until 1833. But not many people had traveled in England and actually seen the conditions of slaves. And I think that is what is so remarkable about these travel journals. It's a French, it's sorry, not French. It's an eyewitness account of an English aristocrat coming from an elitist background who is curious with a very, very, very strong sense of. And his reactions are completely open and forthright. And he says that slavery is a stain on humanity. And one day he writes in 1824 that this country could have a black president. So that's a remarkable thing to write in 1824. He also adored women. He had a very strong respect for women because his mother had a very strong faith and he was devastated when she died when he was 18. He also adored his step grandmother who taught him how to do public speaking because she was a very famous actress called Eliza Farren, comic actress, and she taught him Shakespeare and he could recite Shakespeare from the age of four, I think, very basic sonnets, but he could actually recite and he wrote poetry in foreign languages. So he did have this incredibly curious mind. And his reaction to seeing enslaved women working very late in their pregnancy in the fields was not something that gave him any pleasure at all. And he writes quite openly about that because of course that wouldn't have happened. Nobody else would have seen that because he didn't travel to the British colonies and see what happened there. So his travels in America really do make a hugely strong impression on him. And he wants to make his world a better place when he comes back from seeing these experiences in America.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

In terms of how typical was it? This increasingly became the typical British response. Britain in many ways had been less anti slavery then America before the American Revolution. But it really started to become a center of anti slavery agitation despite of course having slavery in the Caribbean. And so you find all these British visitors other than those from the British Caribbean were more and more outspoken about the presence of slavery in America after 1820.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

What was his opinion of ex American president John Adams after meeting with him?

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Oh, he thought he had immaculate manners and he spoke fluent French with the man who, because he was ambassador in France, he spoke fluent French with the visitor beforehand. So Edward Stanley had a very. He was very impressed by John Adams and thought he was charming. And I'm going to let Andrew tell you the story about his teeth because Andrew tells it very well.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

He was talking to John Adams about a portrait and Adams responded it was a portrait of Washington. Adam said Washington was very clever because he had bad teeth. He never opened his mouth or smile and he said that's why he was successful and I was not. I was always opening my mouth and.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Talking amusing on the whole. Why was, on the other hand, why was his opinion of John Adams son, John Quincy Adams so relatively poor?

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

You know, I find that a bit of a mystery because John Quincy Adams in many ways was almost a mirror of Edward Geoffrey Stanley, later the Earl of Derby, who wrote this journal. They were both really good classicists, broadly educated. John Quincy Adams spent a large part of his youth in Europe, not least in Britain. Well, his father was the first, effectively ambassador, they called them Minister Plenipotentiary at the time to Britain after the American Revolution. But he found John Quincy Adams pompous and worse still, he felt he was not trustworthy and that he never looked you in the eye. He said his eyes were watering constantly when he was speaking and he did not take to him in the least. But it's rather a mystery to me as to why he was so critical because Adams clearly was hospitable towards them, invited them to his inaugural party after the inauguration of the White House and extended hospitality on various occasions to them.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

On the whole, what did Stanley make of the inauguration ceremonies for the new President who was of course John Quincy Adams in March of 1825?

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

He was very impressed that they were so short and simple. And so he praised that.

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

And of course, well, he also said that, you know, at the handover when it was announced that Jackson hadn't got it, he describes that Jackson behaved with dignity, which was. It was just very nice to read that somebody who had probably won the popular vote almost definitely had actually behaved with dignity when he heard in the same room as John Quincy Adams that he'd lost that place.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Why did Stanley abruptly leave North America, Washington, D.C. to go back to England?

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Well, he'd got a letter from his grandfather saying his grandfather found out that they'd kept in touch and, and so he got a letter. I think he was in Charleston when he got the letter. And he was so excited that he'd been given permission to marry the love of his life, Emma, that he literally with his friends, hot footed it up to Washington in order to attend the inauguration ceremonies. And then as soon as that was over, he took a boat back to. He took a boat back to the UK and married very quickly. I mean, within the month.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

What is.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

Sorry, please go ahead.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

It's quite funny because he didn't tell his companions what had happened or why he was going back. And they were very upset in their own letters and felt he'd been very gauche in the manner that he just announced he was going back to Britain because they had tentative plans that they might go to Cuba or to Mexico and that they were going to stay quite a bit longer. And they were very disappointed that he suddenly left. They found it cold. What is amusing about all of this is that they were all members of Parliament and they were all absent while Parliament was in session. I mean, it was a very different, a more casual attitude to politics that you could just take off during parliamentary sessions.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

What, if any, influence did Stanley's North American tour have on his political future and in particular on his views relating to Britain's empire?

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Well, I think they were completely seminal, that's the point. And because the notes that backed up these journals hadn't been found, there hasn't really been the correct interpretation of how important Stanley was as Prime Minister. Three times to Queen Victoria and He was sort of squeezed in between all these other big characters who flirted with Queen Victoria, so got on quite well with her. And he was very authentic to his mission statement. And he followed. He followed his ethics. And so everything that he saw, it's a very interesting explanation of nature and nurture. Everything he saw in his trip to America, he then brought back into his political legacy. I don't want to do a spoiler alert because Andrew's going to write a book on that now, which I'm much looking forward to working with him on it.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

If you wanted people to take. I'm sorry, Professor o', Shaughnessy, you want to say something?

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

Lady Dobb is absolutely correct that this is where I would like to continue this project is to do a book on the impact of these travels on his later political career. The obvious example is slavery because he was seeing New World plantation slavery for the first time. And he is so emotional in his descriptions. And Britain would become. It would not only abolish slavery, but it would become a world crusader against slavery, using its navy to try to. And suddenly the slave trade and to bring pressure to end slavery elsewhere.

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

And in fact, yeah, Disraeli said when his statue was being erected in Parliament Square, he said that the legacy of the Prime Minister, the 14th Isle of Derby, was he educated Ireland, he abolished slavery and reformed Parliament and all of those things. You can literally identify two experiences that he writes about in these journals.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

If you want people to take one thing away from this book, what would it be?

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Well, I've published it because it's been a very emotional journey for me. I've published it because when I was reading it and found gave me hope after quite a dark time of COVID And it also put me into a community of historians who were so generous with their knowledge, of course, the first being Andrew Shaughnessy, who's one of my oldest friends. But when you find something as interesting as this, and I knew about a little bit about English history, but I didn't know about Canadian or American. And it's opened up a world to me of people who are so generous with their knowledge. And I feel that you can learn so many lessons from history, unless you know what comes chronologically, you can't make decisions on what is maybe right or wrong. I mean, obviously people make mistakes, but. But. So I think it is to be curious, have humanity, have hope. And he personally went on a crusade to make his world a better place in his lifetime. And he did that in an age before social media, air travel, whatever else. So his life was remarkable and I think he really could and should be a mentor to young people as they grow up.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

Professor o' Shaughnessy so for me, the biggest takeaway was this very vivid description of what America was like in the era before the railways, what it was like to travel there. And you essentially have the most marvelous eyewitness in Derby because he was interested in almost everything, the economy, manufacturing, Native Americans. The marvelous discovery in the notes was conversations directly with Native Americans and even with enslaved Americans. So it gives you a panorama. And the trouble when you're writing history and reading the work of other historians is naturally they're focused on a particular theme or topic. The great thing about this journal is that it is so broad and really gives you a sense of being saturated in the history of that time.

[Dr. Charles Coutillo]

On that observation, I would like to thank you both very much for being so kind as speak with us today. This is Charles Petillo listening to New Books in History, a podcast channel, New Books Network. Thank you both very much for being so kind as to talk to us.

[Caroline, Countess of Derby]

Thank you. Thank you. I've enjoyed it. Charles. Thank you.

[Professor Andrew O'Shaughnessy]

Thank you.

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