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- [00:00]
A
Right now get up to 15% off select storage solutions put heavy duty HDX totes to good use, protecting what's important to you. The solid impact resistant design prevents cracking and the clear base and sides make items easy to find even when the totes are stacked. Find select shelving and Tote storage up to 15% off at the Home Depot. To organize every room in your home from your garage to your attic, visit homedepot.com how doers get More Done
- [00:31]
B
this episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more@accenture.com Spotify
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A
welcome to the New Books Network.
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C
1859 I, Adam, was formed in the dust of an attic, and from thence I emerged into the world. On this day, 11 years after that inauspicious nativity, a sharp wind gnashed at the hardened crust of snow upon the ground and grated against the edges of my bleak house. I waved at Mother, waiting in the gaping doorway. She stood at the threshold, as if to step beyond it would cause the pillar of her body to crumble into grains of salt whipping in the wind. The intensity of her sharp black eyes forced mine to the path ahead. This is GP Gottlieb, host for New Books and Literature, a podcast channel on the New Books Network, and today I'm talking to Elizabeth Rhodes about her dark new novel, Haggard House, set on the Menominee river in the up of Michigan in the 18th, late 1850s, 60s, we meet Adam, who's allowed to attend the Village School only after his mother has made sure he understands that everyone else is a heathen and only she, the minister, and Adam are acting according to God's will. This is a dark and gripping novel about what happens when extreme piety and belief supersede human kindness, warmth, and a mother's ability to nurture. Hi Elizabeth, thanks for joining me today.
- [02:35]
B
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Glee. I'm really honored to be here.
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C
You're originally from Michigan. When did you begin thinking about setting a novel on the Menominee river in the up?
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B
Well, it's interesting because the novel that I wrote, Haggard House, it is actually the third novel that I've written, although it's the first one that I published. So I went through these sort of. I call them practice novels before I got to this novel. And none of them were set in Michigan, but this one. It just was kind of a natural setting, partly because it's a historical novel. And I knew I was going to have to do a lot of research, the history and all the elements that went into the story during that time period. So I really didn't want to overburden myself. So I thought at least pick some place that's a bit familiar. So that's how it ended up being set in Michigan.
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C
Well, I love that area. And Mackinac island is such an interesting place. You bring it up. My nephew just won his division of the big Mackinac race from Chicago to no way. Yeah, Last weekend. So it was fun. Read the book. Set in that area. Okay, so in alternating timelines, we read about Adam's mother being brought to Michigan as a child. She ends up alone with her father, Silas Whitmore. Can you talk about Silas? We'll talk about everybody. But will you start with Silas and his life?
- [04:07]
B
Yes, definitely. So Silas, he came to the states from England, and he initially was a law clerk. And when he. When he comes to the States, he comes to the east coast and he ends up moving to Michigan. And he's kind of trying to figure out what to do. And he sees that the. The fur trade is really what's booming in that area. And so he decides that he's going to make a shift in his kind of career trajectory and. And take up the fur trade. And he's an independent trader, so he is kind of in competition with. With what were the big fur trading companies of the time. You have the American Fur Trading Company, which was the big one. And in the book, it's just called the company. When I was doing my research on that, I found references to it. And when people were talking about it in that area, they would just call it the company. So he's kind of in basically direct competition with the company, the American Fur Company. But he's doing really well. He's able to get a foothold, and he's making some pretty good money until his wife shows up with their child. And he's now kind of saddled with this child that he has to take care of, which introduces some. So let's.
- [05:39]
C
Let's stop there. Let's not say anything else because we don't learn much about Sarai, who is Adam's mother. And Adam, of course, is the protagonist. We don't learn much about her early years until the end. But we do know that she's extremely religious and under the sway of a rather sinister minister. Can you introduce Minister Judd?
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B
Yeah. So Minister Judd, he is in the area as a missionary to the Native Americans, and he. He kind of has a bit of a. I don't know, kind of like an interesting presence, and people kind of notice that. But in the story, he. He opens a church and.
- [06:30]
C
And he sort of gets Sarai to follow his very strange and kind of kooky religiosity. Would you say that's true?
- [06:41]
B
Yes. Yes.
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C
Let's go back to the title, Haggard House, which even in the eyes of your young protagonist. Sounds creepy, is what the townspeople call it. And the house is sometimes described as more horrible than some of the people we meet in the novel. So what did you base that on?
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B
So the house itself wasn't necessarily based on any particular house that I knew of. It kind of came from, I don't know, just, I guess, my imagination. But I wanted this house to have a really strong presence in the novel and almost have, like, a bit of a haunted house vibe to it. And it kind of, in a way, is a character in and of itself in the novel. You know, a lot of kind of creepy things happen in. In and around it. And it has a reputation in the village, you know, for. For being this place people don't want to go. So, yeah, not, I guess, not necessarily inspired by any particular house that I know of or any particular place, but just, yeah, I guess something I imagined.
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C
Okay, so. Winner of the creepiest house in literature. Perhaps. I don't know.
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B
I hope so. That's a nice compliment.
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C
We meet Adam, who's at. He's 11 years old, heading to his first day of school, and the story of his lunch is devastating. Let me quote an under baked potato, a meager supply of questionable goat meat, and bred with evidence of maggots. And Adam eats it all because, as he says, one could become accustomed to anything. Wow. My kids were never able to become accustomed to much of it.
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B
A lot of kids aren't.
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C
He's a real interesting character. Can you talk about him?
- [08:44]
B
So Adam, he's the protagonist of the story. You know, there's the. The story's told in multiple perspectives. It's told in five different perspectives. He's the protagonist. He does get the lion's share of the perspective. And so I would say mostly we're seeing the novel through his eyes. And, you know, you had asked about Minister Judd, and he's kind of under Minister Judd's Sway as well, as well as his mother's. You know, he grows up in this very super religious, I would say, kind of like almost like a cult of one family. Very, very strong beliefs that he has to follow. And, you know, his mother is very strict and has very particular, you know, things that she wants him to do. And so, you know, as you mentioned, the food being one of them. You know, he has this unappetizing food that's. That's what's available, and he has to eat it. And, you know, he's counseled not to play with the other children in the school. He's kind of held back from going to school. And when he does get to go, finally, he's counseled not to play with the other children. And Minister Judd is kind of there because he has a place near the schoolhouse. And so he's kind of there watching and kind of keeping an eye, even though Adam's mother is not present to do that. So, yeah, he. Across the years, he kind of starts to question maybe some of those things, and he gets a little bit more experience as he moves through life. So I'll kind of leave it at that. Without giving away too much,
- [10:29]
A
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- [10:57]
C
Hear that? That's now crispy and McCrispy strips meeting.
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B
Creamy Caesar sauce sounds extra crispy.
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C
Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time. But why does Adam feel like his mother wields so much control? He thinks she can read his thoughts.
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B
Yeah, so part of that is, you know, like I mentioned, the. That religious aspect. So she has kind of inundated him with these beliefs about God since, you know, he was born. There's a lot of scenes that kind of give a nod at that. And she just has such a strong sway over him that he's become basically paranoid. And he actually believes, you know, that she can read his thoughts and things like that because she is very good at reading him. You know, they've been very close growing up. You know, I mentioned he was held back from school, so he really just had mostly her influence in his life. And, you know, there's his father figure there as well, but, you know, his father is off. His father's a carpenter and he's off in the shop a lot of the time. And so mostly he's with his mother. And she just has this really, really strong sway over him. And it does seem as if she can read his mind. And he's just very paranoid and very fearful. Also, you know, there, there's consequences when he acts out.
- [12:29]
C
Right. Well, his, the father, why does he tolerate his wife's behavior? Why does he let himself be walked all over?
- [12:37]
B
Yeah, that's a good question. So early on, I mean, the father, he had kind of wanted this, you know, just, just a happy, ordinary family life. And he thought that's what he was getting when he married Sarai. That's Adam's mother. And it really wasn't what he bargained for. He didn't really realize the strength of Sarai's religion and her obsession with it. And so as time goes on, he kind of is. It's kind of almost like that analogy of the frog in boiling water. You know, if you just turn it up by, if you turn up the heat of the water by degrees, the frog doesn't even notice that it's being boiled. So it's kind of that type of situation for Peter where it's just kind of gradually coming on. And at some point he's almost under the control of Sarai, the mother and his wife.
- [13:37]
C
And then there's Penny. Penny, they're little, they're still 11. And she wants to be his friend and he's at a loss. He's never been allowed to have a friend, but she's drawn to him. Can you talk about her and how you envisioned the character?
- [13:50]
B
Yeah, so she was someone that came into the story just as very bright. She has this copper colored hair. So even, you know, her exterior is, has this kind of bright presence. And also her personality, she's just kind of laughing and she doesn't take things too seriously. Her, her, her family is very kind of just lighthearted and also doesn't take things too seriously. She's kind of a little bit naughty and spunky and she befriends Adam and he kind of sees this side that's possible from her. And yeah, that kind of continues through the years as well.
- [14:34]
C
Adam says that the first and last time he ever heard his mother say his father was right was when the three of them ate the pie Penny brought over. What does Adam make of his parents relationship?
- [14:47]
B
Yeah, so I think there's one thing is there's just confusion in a way. You know, he sees his parents relationship and typically at that time, you know, that time period, the father would be the head of the household and kind of the one in control of most things. And in his family it's pretty much reversed. Maybe to some outsiders it might look like the father's in control, but he is in the home. And he knows, you know, it's really the mother, his mother that's at the head of everything. And he has a very confused relationship with both of them. With his mother, it's that he really loves her and he really wants to do what's right and wants to do what she wants him to do. But then he also kind of questions like, is that what love is? And is love basically doing what she wants him to do? Is that the way to gain love? And then with his father, who's a little bit more warm, he's kind of a contrast to his mother, Sarai. His father, you know, has this different presence and he, he doesn't know how to interact with that because, because of the way that his mother is, he, she's. He's always trying to balance the relationship with the two of them. So it, it makes kind of, for a lot of tension within him and within the family.
- [16:18]
C
And then he leaves the, the island and he's out in the world, he's working. And two, two different times he starts up a relationship, he makes friends. And both. Seven times he's disappointed. Something happens that is seriously disappointing. And it's almost as if his mother was right that the outside world can't be trusted and he goes running home. Is there, what, what are we to make of that?
- [16:51]
B
Yeah, so it's kind of like when you're, it's almost like that thing where you're, when you're looking for something, you're going to find it. And so he does get the disappointed by these new friendships, these new relationships. And it's partially, maybe not partially, but maybe mostly because of the way that he's been raised. He's, you know, as I mentioned in the beginning, he was kind of counseled not to, not to play with the village children when he first starts going to school. And that's continued with him throughout his life. And so there's these little things that kind of, you know, set him off. And then it just becomes, well, we can't have a relationship now, you know, we can't have a friendship. And so that makes it very difficult for him to have long term friendships or relationships. And he's just kind of playing out his childhood over again in a way.
- [17:46]
C
Yeah, yeah, that's true. Why did you choose to tell the story through the five different first person narratives. How did that come about?
- [17:55]
B
Yeah, so initially it was actually told in third person. Up until very close to one of the final drafts, it was told all in third person. And I kept sending it out for feedback to friends and other sources. And it just felt like something was not quite there. It was getting closer, but something was not quite there. And so one friend suggested to me, she actually sent me a copy of Faulkner's As I Lay Dying. And she said, what do you think about doing this in different perspectives? And I had actually had the thought to do that before, but I didn't really want to because I knew it was going to be a lot of work to change the entire novel into multiple perspectives. But I thought, well, I at least have to give it a try. I've spent so long working on this novel, I at least have to give it a try and see what happens. And so I started shifting it into first person and it immediately clicked. And it just. It just felt natural to have these different narrators, you know, seeing things through their eyes. And actually there is only one chapter from Adam's mother's point of view, Sarai. And that chapter came very, very close to the end of finishing everything. It was not expected, and it was actually probably the most fun chapter to write.
- [19:29]
C
Interesting. Elizabeth, you write in your bio that you grew up in a very religious family. So I'm wondering why the God fearing characters are so cruel while the less pious characters are portrayed as generous and even kind.
- [19:46]
B
Yeah, so I definitely had a, like, Adam, kind of like a very interesting religious upbringing, different than probably most people's religious upbringing. So, for example, we weren't allowed to celebrate Christmas or Halloween because those were considered to be, you know, pagan holidays that have been changed to Christian, Christian holidays, things like that. And so I was always kind of a bit of an outsider, even within, you know, Christian circles. And so for me, it was kind of easy to portray Adam that way as, you know, know, a bit of an outsider. And so, yeah, that's kind of, kind of how that ended up happening.
- [20:31]
C
I detected a little bit of bitterness. But is that just because you're a really good writer, you wanted me to think that, right?
- [20:42]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [20:43]
C
Okay.
- [20:45]
B
No, yeah, there's. There's bitterness, I guess. Yeah. In the novel. Yeah. And it's. Yeah, probably, you know, some. Some things I. Working through myself, you know, I think novelists, we tend to do that. We try to, you know, work through things maybe in our own lives, through fiction, in this fictionalized setting. And so yeah, there's, there's definitely a bit of that, I would say.
- [21:10]
C
Well, I was dying to ask if anybody ever made you eat crappy food for lunch. But anyway, it was a really wonderful debut novel. Congratulations. What are you working on next?
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B
So I'm currently, I've shifted gears a little bit. My new novel is actually a bit more of a time travel romance and it's set between AD 80 Rome and present day Los Angeles. And so there's no title or anything yet. But hopefully hoping to finish that up in about two years when I finish my writing program I'm starting at Chapman University, my MFA in writing. So we shall see.
- [21:58]
C
Good luck with it. I'm with all your writing and with Congerd House. Thanks so much for joining me.
- [22:04]
B
Thanks, Kalia. I really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun.
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C
And thank you for joining me again. This is GP Gottib, host for New Books in Literature, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. Today I've been talking to Elizabeth Rhodes about her gripping debut novel, Haggard House. Hope you all have something gripping to read today and always thank you for
- [22:27]
B
listening to this episode of the New Books Network. We are an academic podcast network with the mission of public education. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can browse all of our episodes on our website, newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us on Instagram and BlueSky with the handle ew booksnetwork, and subscribe to our weekly Substack newsletter at newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.