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Elizabeth Currie, "Street Style: Art and Dress in the Time of Caravaggio" (Reaktion, 2025)
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- [00:00]
A
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B
Hello, and welcome to another episode on the New Books Network. I'm one of your hosts, Dr. Miranda Melcher, and I'm very pleased today to be speaking with Dr. Elizabeth Curry about her book titled Street Art and Dress in the Time of Caravaggio, published by reaction in 2025. Taking us to a time that in some ways is really far away from where we are now. We're going back multiple hundreds of years where the way people live in their daily life feels pretty different. The jobs that people are doing is different in some ways. What kind of walking along a street is might be very different, but of course, we're all still human. So there's all sorts of stories about kind of class relations, about clothing, about cleanliness, about sort of who's being too loud or too quiet that very much, I think, are resonant today. And we get to see them. Yes, we're going to be talking about them here, but in the book, we also get the visuals of this that really brings it all to life. So clearly we have quite a lot to be discussing today. Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
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C
Thank you very much for having me.
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B
Could you please start us off by introducing yourself a little bit and tell us why you decided to write this book?
- [02:19]
C
Yeah, certainly. So I'm a historian and lecturer and I teach at Central Saint Martins. And my research focuses mainly on textiles and dress in early modern Italy. And this project really developed out of the work that I was doing before on elite menswear in Florence. So I was looking at the clothing that was worn by noblemen who were part of the Medici court. And I became interested in thinking about military wear and soldiers dress because that seemed to have an influence on what wealthy men were wearing at the time. And that was kind of unusual to me because it went against some of the usual kind of trickle down explanations for fashion at the time. So this was street clothing that was moving upwards to the nobility. And so I looked more and more into images of soldiers. And I started to find images where soldiers were often grouped together with other people from, we could call them everyday people, commoners, I suppose. So there were lots of artworks from this period by well known artists who showed these people, but also other kinds of images such as prints and costume books and sketches. And they kept on showing soldiers together with other people, socializing, playing cards, gambling. And so I really wanted to find out more about the real life inspirations behind these artworks. And every chapter in my book focuses on a different sort of social group. So I look at young men who might have been soldiers or bodyguards. I look at sex workers, servants and so on. And I thought when I started that clothing and their appearances would be a really good way into this topic because even people who had very few possessions at all would generally own some items of clothing. You know, they would own the garments on their back.
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B
Yeah, that definitely gives us a whole range of types of people to discuss. So thank you for that introduction. You mentioned their paintings and that's obviously a key kind of source of evidence. Can you tell us more about the kinds of records or information we have to understand what kind of normal, everyday people were wearing?
- [04:28]
C
Yeah, so this was really one of the challenges of the book. And it was so different from the previous research I'd been doing when I had so much information, I could tell everything about a single garment. You know, the buttons, the types of clothing and so on, the types of textile that went into making them. When I was looking at noblemen. But here I had very little. And I was keen to locate a broad range of evidence to think about in conjunction with images, because obviously we can't take images of the poor at face value. Some of them might have been more what we could call authentic, and they might have been drawn or painted from life, but others have very strong Symbolic or moral elements. So the other places that I looked to were partly the sumptuary laws. So laws telling people what kinds of clothing they could or couldn't wear. For some of the categories of the. Of people that I looked at, there was more archival evidence. So the courtesans or sex workers that I was thinking about in Rome at this time, some of them had household inventories, so I could look at the types of clothes that they actually had in their possession, or we can find transactions that they had with secondhand dealers, records of their involvement in disputes. So. So trial records. On the other hand, for some of the social groups that I was thinking about, there was far less evidence and it was evidence that was recorded entirely by outsiders. So that was rather more of a challenge for me.
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B
Yeah, sources are always a really tricky aspect. So I thank you for helping us understand what you've. In this instance, of course, when we're talking about some of these artists, obviously artists at kind of any point are. It's expensive to do these things. And so, not unsurprisingly, we see artists like Caravaggio often sort of painting princesses or kings. Right. The people that will pay for all of this. So what was causing these kinds of artists to also turn to painting everyday people at this moment in the 16th century?
- [06:30]
C
Yes. So in some ways there's a democratisation of imagery, even in the kinds of paintings that you've mentioned. So portraits of the very wealthy and rulers, there's a bit of a trickle down effect in that. We start to get portraits, say, very rarely of artisans. For example, there's a famous portrait of a tailor at the National Gallery in London. So there's an interest in widening out the types of subject that are considered to be viable for paintings at this time. And although Caravaggio is seen as very innovative in that he depicts everyday people in kind of new and in unusual ways. It was a trend that had become popular ever since the kind of beginning of the 16th century. So we get Flemish artists like Pieter Bruegel the Elder, who was painting scenes of kind of commoners and peasants, some people might call them, on feast days or engaged in rural pursuits. And often these paintings had a kind of moral or allegorical meaning as well. So they were popular not just because they showed everyday people, but also because they taught the viewers something. You know, these viewers might have been. The patrons might have been of a higher class. And we see this kind of move from into northern Italy. So with artists such as Vincenzo Campi, who were working in the kind of area that Caravaggio came from or lived in in his early years. But when he comes to Rome, not only does he paint scenes of everyday people socializing together, but he also puts these people into religious artworks as well. And I think that's prob. Probably one of the very new things that he develops.
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B
Okay, that's really interesting to think about kind of what the continuity versus change is there. Clearly though, beyond sort of his own interest in doing this or sort of the interest from an artistic point of view, there's a commercial element too. So who is buying these paintings? Is everyone sort of in favour of this artistic turn? What's the kind of discussion around this change?
- [08:40]
C
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a taste for this kind of subject matter. We know that Caravaggio's first genre scenes, so perhaps the two most interesting ones in terms of the clothing, the card sharps and the fortune teller. So one shows three men playing cards and two of the men are cheating the other one. And the fortune teller shows a young Romani woman telling the fortune of a well dressed man. So Caravaggio painted these two works? Well, three, because there are two versions of the fortune teller, speculatively at least, we think that he painted them for the market. So he didn't have a specific patron in mind. So by doing this it shows that he knew that people liked this kind of work. And certainly he was drawing also on themes that come from popular theatre at the time. So there was a general kind of interest in Romani fortune tellers. They were part of kind of songs that were sung on street corners, were about Romani women. And comedi dell' arte was partly included some of these characters. So higher class patrons were obviously interested in these subjects. But it wasn't just wealthy people who are buying painted genre scenes. These types of subjects could also be found in much more, what do you call it, sort of cheaply priced artworks such as paper prints of street sellers, carnival costumes, for example. So things images that would have been enjoyed by consumers further down the social scale. And you know, as you mentioned, not everybody was in favour of them. So members of the art academy had criticisms because they didn't follow certain ideals. So there was this idea that Caravaggio painted from the world that he saw around him rather than learning his technique from classical artworks. And some people are also shocked by the fact that he put so called kind of normal people into religious paintings. So one kind of famous example of this is Giulio Mancini, who was one of Caravaggio's biographers. And interestingly, one of the few who actually knew Caravaggio personally. So he talked about one painting, an altarpiece called the Death of the Virgin, and he suggested that the Virgin was based on this is a quote. He calls the model a dirty prostitute from the Ortaca. And the Hortaccio was the name of the kind of area where prostitutes were confined to in Rome by Pope Pius V. So there's no real evidence that Caravaggio did base the Virgin in that painting on a sex worker. But that was a kind of rumor that circulated at the time. I mean, having said all that, many of the people who had criticisms were also very inspired by his work and thought it was exceptional.
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B
It's always really interesting when things are a bit controversial.
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C
Right.
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B
If everyone thought the same thing all the time, it wouldn't be very fun. So thank you for giving us a sense of those debates. But the thread I most want to pick up from in that answer is you mentioned Romani figures kind of coming up in a number of different ways. And in fact, you discuss in the book that there were quite a few sort of common tropes or types that showed up in painting after painting after painting. So can you give us a sense of what some of these other ones were and why they were so common?
- [12:07]
C
Yes. So I think people were at this time with kind of developing urban centers and the fact that people were maybe kind of traveling more. So we think about this time as an era of kind of increasing mobility. So that meant that people were very much coming into contact with strangers or foreigners, and they wanted to know how to situate them and how to kind of read them. And partly aided by the kind of growth of printed books as well. At the same time, we get these particular types of work, such as the costume book, which illustrated people from different towns, regions, countries and so on, and they were popular across Europe, and they borrowed images from one another. So that really helped to solidify kind of visual stereotypes. And I think those kind of printed works had an impact on paintings as well. And these kind of tropes and figures also fed through and came out of theater as well. So I mentioned, you know, songs at street corners or comedy dell' arte performances. So the characters in Caravaggio's Fortune Teller and the Card Sharps, they almost look as though they're kind of vignettes or scenes from plays, and they use the same kind of stock types from drama. So that allowed artists to develop similar sorts of themes. So, you know, the idea of the young adventurer whose luck goes up and down, imposters such as pilgrims who are actually rogues and not holy travelers or fortune tellers who are noble women and disguises. These are all kind of percolating through different forms of art and literature at the time. And I think they definitely feed into how people looked at, you know, outsiders or people who had seemed different from them in rome in the 16th and 17th centuries.
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B
Okay, I definitely want to talk about some more of these identity categories and the way they were portrayed. So staying with the Romani group specifically, you talk in the book, you have a number of examples of Romani women specifically being featured in art and literature. Clearly, there's sort of gender politics happening, identity politics going on. What's up with this trope?
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C
Yeah, so we first. The first kind of description of Romani people arriving in Italy is an anonymous chronicle from Bologna in the 1420s, and it mentions a kind of Duke of Egypt arriving in the city with 100 followers and that they move on. So there were Romani people communities in Italy from the early 15th cent. They were also the subject of these songs and plays. And I think Romani women in particular were obviously a very appealing subject for writers and artists because they were visually distinctive in some ways. And I don't think that all the artworks that depict them can be taken as kind of authentic depictions of what they really looked like, but they did have particular types of clothing, and I think that artists played on this and embellished it. So because they were foreigners, essentially, they weren't Italian, and there wasn't a consensus at the time about where they originated from. So people thought that they were from India, Egypt, or other regions of Africa. But because they were Italian, it meant that artists and writers could kind of almost imagine their clothing. They put them often in. They dress them in very bright colors and stripes that were associated with some of these regions that I've just mentioned. And we get the sense that in a theatrical performance, they would be given the costume, the most kind of standout, ostentatious costume that they would have. And because they were also associated with magic and fortune telling, then they were very appealing to writers who could put them right in the middle of the kind of narrative, or, you know, they could be the central part of a plot device in plays. So I think they were appealing for those reasons. They appeared a lot in religious artworks, which is something that we might find surprising from our kind of standpoint. But they were associated with various stories in the Bible because there were lots of myths that linked them to episodes in Christ's life. So the flight into Egypt, because they were thought to Be from Egypt, the Lamentation. They were sometimes thought to be kind of bystanders at Christ's crucifixion. But something that kind of changes from Caravaggio's Fortune Tellers onwards, I think, is that he portrays the fortune teller ultimately as this very kind of big, beguiling, enchanting, beautiful woman in very attractive and sometimes costly clothing. And that's the kind of standard image that gets taken up by his followers like Valentin de Boulogne, Nicolas Renier, people who come in his wake and paint these same kind of genre scenes, sharing fortune tellers and card players and so on.
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B
Okay, yeah, it definitely makes sense to have kind of a key instigator, as it were, that others then copy. And another important figure, though, that you mentioned earlier, I want to make sure we also discuss are soldiers. Why did they show up in a lot of these paintings?
- [17:35]
C
Yeah, so soldiers were, as I said, they were kind of trendsetters in a way because soldiers had to be ostentatious in their clothing. So there's a strand of imagery in print from slightly earlier than the period that I'm looking at. So images of standard bearers, so the kind of military flag bearer whose appearance was particularly important because they had to be visible to other members of the troupe. So they would wear bright colours. And this was a time when elite men, so gentlemen and the nobility were often, often chose to wear black or dark colours because that was considered to be kind of more sober and modest, you know, less kind of flashy. And these kind of bright colours in. In civic wear was often kind of. They were often thought to be rather effeminate on men. So I think soldiers clothing was very appealing. Soldiers. There are certain types of military styles that were particularly appropriated in fashionable clothing. So the use of slashing, we think comes from the battlefield. You know, the codpiece, which is very famous in 16th century dress, is also something that we think was first worn by soldiers. So they're kind of. They're always looked. They're always an inspiration, I suppose, for their clothing at this time. And in the chapter that looks at soldiers in the book. So a lot of the people that I'm. The young men that I'm talking about, they're not necessarily soldiers or they drift in and out of the military. Sometimes they're bodyguards, sometimes they're servants in the palaces of cardinals or the nobility. But they all kind of wear this military esque style clothing. Some of them also wear liveries. So that's a kind of uniform that was given to servants in Large elite households that had kind of strong links with military dress. So I think that the young man, the young cheat in the card shops who wears a kind of bright yellow doublet and striped britches, I think he's probably wearing a livery. And it's interesting that he's wearing yellow because that was often a livery color, a color that was recommended for uniforms like that. One thing that changes in imagery of soldiers in this period is that they go from being a kind of masculine ideal to being something more debauched, something that, you know, a type of masculinity that causes more anxiety. So we could see some of the men, you know, drinking, looking quite kind of rogish, and, you know, they're sort of swashbucklers and they're not just people that men would look up to.
- [20:31]
B
Yeah, that's definitely interesting to see the change over time. Some of the images you have in the book are very debauched indeed, making this, you know, not at all a subtle image going on.
- [20:41]
C
They look as though they're about to break out into a fight at any point. Half of them, yeah.
- [20:46]
B
100 main one. And yeah, there's. There's a lot going on there. And clearly they're not the only sort of group that are seen as potentially being a bit suspect. You also discuss in the book sex workers and the way in which their clothing was also targeted or regulated or seen as a source of concern, is that right?
- [21:06]
C
Yes. So I look specifically at sex workers who were. Whose clothing was very policed in Rome at this time. It has to be said that in most Italian cities there were more sumptuary laws addressed towards women than men. So they were the kind of brunt of these regulations about clothing, partly because fashion was seen to be a particularly feminine pursuit. Rightly or wrongly, there are lots of men who are interested in fashion at the time, and obviously lots of men kind of colluded in buying clothing for their female relatives that were maybe banned by sumptuary laws. So there's a lot of people who have interests in. In wearing particular types of flashy clothing, we could say at this time. But yes, there was a particular focus on regulating the clothing of sex workers in. In Rome, and it was slightly different from other cities. So in other cities, sex workers were often forced to wear a very visible particular marker. So in Florence, this was a yellow veil. But in Rome, sex workers were basically not allowed to wear the kinds of dress that were associated with honourable women. So in the sumptuary laws and in some other archival records, we see this referred to as abiti alla romana. So that means Roman clothing. But unfortunately there isn't much description of what that means. There's only one item that is really clear and that's the lenswolo. So the lensuolo translates as a sheep. So it's a very long voluminous veil. And this was a kind of particularly prestigious item or accessory that noblewomen would wear. So in the subterranean laws from the mid 15th century onwards, sex workers are banned from wearing this lens wallo. And there's a kind of new development under Pope Pius v in the 1560s when a new kind of half length veil is introduced. So in one of the laws it says that this is the veil that noble women wore underneath their lenswaller or sheet. So it's a kind of type that was already around, but it's almost like the sex workers have to wear this under veil, you know, so. And it's clearly a way of discrediting them, making them more visible and trying to distinguish them from Roman female citizens who are considered to be much more honorable and modest.
- [23:47]
B
Was it possible to distinguish those kinds of people? Like, was it? I mean, yes, the law is trying to do it, but was it actually possible to like look at someone's clothes and be like, you are a moral person, you are not a moral person. Like, could you actually do that?
- [24:01]
C
Yeah, so that's really tricky. So one interesting thing about sumptuary laws is that we, we don't know very much about how much they were enforced. We know because the same laws were introduced repeatedly, that they were obviously ineffectual in some ways. And clearly, you know, we don't have that much detail about what sex workers were buying. But we can see from a few inventories from the time that Roman sex workers did have abiti alla romana in their possession. Another interesting point is that Roman noble women didn't seem to mind too much about wearing garments that were really associated with sex workers. So there's one over garment that looked a bit like a caftan. It was called a zimara. And it became so associated with sex workers in different parts of Italy that in Florence, sex workers, the nickname for sex workers was zimarina. And yet from inventories of well to do women, we can see that the zimara, so the very same garment was extremely popular. So women of all different types were wearing these garments and other types of dress. So the colors or types of metal, lace and so on that sex workers seem to have aspired to own were also worn by wealthy women. So I think women were just keen to engage with new types of fashion and they didn't necessarily, necessarily follow sumptuary laws or tried to avoid doing so if they didn't want to. Another interesting example, I suppose is that there were some attempts to identify worthy beggars in rome in the 16th century. I mean, that happened in other cities as well. But there's a kind of long standing desire to differentiate between the kind of undeserving and the deserving poor. And we see this illustrated in costume books at the time. So sometimes you see an image of a man probably who is covered head to toe with a kind of, with a robe and he has a hood over his head. So that means that we can't identify him. And in descriptions we learn that this particular figure is a citizen who's fallen into poverty through no fault of his own. So he's a worthy beggar. And at the same time you get lots of images of unworthy beg. So people who use tricks to get charity from other people when actually they're able bodied and they should be out doing work and so on. So. And at the time some sitters tried to introduce forms of badging to show people who was a worthy beggar. And in Rome we get this in 1595 when they start, they trial a kind of new system with a questionnaire for people to answer. So anyone who wants to use the beggar's hospice or have the right to beg has to answer all these questions about whether they're, you know, whether they've been to mass when they last went to confession, and kind of personal questions as well about what they want to do in the future and where they have dependents and so on. And anyone who passed the test would be given a certificate which they had to pin onto their left shoulder. And so that would be visible at all times. So there were lots of ways that the authorities tried to distinguish between kind of moral and immoral people and dishonorable and honorable people. But it was definitely kind of a losing battle.
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B
You could say, yeah, it definitely sounds very tricky. And honestly, one of the things that makes this hard is a particular custom you discuss in the book of nobles or employers paying their servants in some cases with clothes or giving their clothes as presents. And I'm not talking new clothes, I mean clothes that like the posh people wore. And then they were like, yeah, I don't like this anymore, or it's a bit worn. And so then they give it to their servant. So literally you're seeing Clothes that are meant to be only for one social class now being given to another social class. Presumably they then go around wearing them. So wouldn't that make it even harder to maintain these sort of social distinctions?
- [28:21]
C
Yeah, that's really interesting. So I suppose one way to think about that is the servant is part of the family household. And so the appearance of domestic servants was very important because they demonstrated a family's honour in public. So certainly employers were very keen that their servants were well turned out, that they weren't kind of scruffy. And this is reinforced in images in costume books. So we often see servants looking very kind of neat and modest and clean. So they're the kind of ideal servant. So the clothes that employers passed on were often kind of plain items, so they wouldn't give their most luxurious items of clothing. Those would probably go to favored relatives. Or we see in people's wills that women would often bequeath, you know, their finest garments, so a kind of velvet gown, for example, to a church even, so it might be turned into an altar cloth. So the items that servants got were often quite kind of serviceable ones. And every now and then we get details of gifts that tell us that they really were garments that employers had worn a lot and that they were rather worn out and worse for wear. So I suppose there's little chance there of the servant kind of, you know, class cross dressing to the extent that they'd be mistaken for an employer. But I think this was such a, what we could call a kind of clothing or cloth literate society. So people were very tuned in to very small differences in clothing. So there's one example in the book about two women who are merchants wives buying mourning clothing for themselves and for their servants. And their dresses were made of black Florentine wool and the clothing of their servants was made of wool from a less prestigious production center. And so, you know, that's a very small difference. You know, it's both, both garments, all the garments were made of black wool. And I think we can't really imagine ourselves in that situation. So we probably on the street, we can't tell the difference now between different qualities of wool or synthetics. But I think at the time people were very much more aware of those things. Another issue about servants appearances and the circulation of clothing is liveries. I mentioned the liveries before, but ideally, you know, the livery should connect somebody to a particular household. So if you are working for Cardinal Del Monte, who was one of Caravaggio's early and important patrons, and you wore his livery, then people would know that you came from his household when they saw you in the street. But the key thing there is that then you have to behave well. It's a sort of two way thing. And liveries were passed around. So we have examples of liveries being sold wholesale on the secondhand market. There are some laws about not passing on liveries, so this is an example from Florence. But at the Medici court, there was a law that servants in the ducal household couldn't pass on their livery to anyone. And I think that suggests that people were wearing liveries to disguise themselves. People sometimes left the service of a household and kept their livery. So there's another example of a criminal who's recognized because he's still wearing the kind of remnants of the livery of the marquis that he was working for. So even the livery itself, it should be a really sort of stable sign, gets played around with and there's some confusion about it.
- [31:56]
B
That's really interesting to think about. And one could imagine, you know, if you were writing a, I don't know, detective story or something in that kind of context, all the fun one could have with that sort of custom. Of course, though, not all the clothing that upper class people kind of no longer wanted would be gifted to servants. That was one of the ways they would get rid of old clothing. What were some of the other methods they'd use?
- [32:18]
C
Yes, so this is a time when textiles, particularly high quality textiles, so silks were incredibly expensive. And recycling was really fundamental to the way that people thought about their clothing in the early modern period. So there's sort of satirical texts by an author called Alessandro Piccolomini called La Raffaella, which is about an older woman giving advice to a younger woman. So she's kind of educating her in the ways of women. But one point they talk a little bit about, you know, they touch on the subject of recycling because it's slightly mocking. But one of the women cites the example of a woman who wears her wedding dress ready to. It falls apart and she dyes it. She cuts off the sleeves and then she kind of turns it inside out and so on. So it's slightly making fun of what this woman does, but at the same time it's really representative of what people did with their clothing. So if you had a cape that you could cut up and turn into berets, you would do that. And we see that at all levels of society, from, you know, the top to the bottom. It's interesting that one of the Roman sumptuary laws from The Times says that clothing that is banned by the new law can be used to make children's wear. So they don't want the owners to throw it away or to waste it. They want it to have another life, so to speak. And another alternative was that you would sell things on the secondhand market. Market. So it was a very thriving trade at this time. And people bought garments, but they also bought scraps of fabric. So we see, for example, artisans such as embroiderers who might buy, say, a worn out piece of velvet because it was much easier to embroider on a piece of fabric that was already soft from wear and its kind of pile had gone down a bit. So all these fabrics had kind of second, third, fourth, fifth, lies even. So that's a very interesting thing to think about in terms of sustainability and how people thought about clothing then and.
- [34:23]
B
Potentially some things we could be more mindful of today, perhaps. So I think a clear link there and lots of food for thought for kind of potential future thinking of, like, how do we think of clothes now and what do they mean about social status and how do we read people's clothes today? So as much as this is so far back in time, there's perhaps some ways in which it's also very timely now too. So can I ask what you might be working on now that this book is out? Is this the kind of thing you're continuing to take forward or what's on your horizon?
- [34:55]
C
Well, I've actually been working on a very different project, so still with textiles, but I've been working on a book about women textile designers in the 20th century, which has been a really a very different project in general. But it's been very interesting because it's a multi author volume and I've been working with curators at the Victoria and Albert Museum and focusing on their collections. One aspect of it has been doing research on living subjects. So that's very different from thinking about people from 400 years ago. And I was lucky enough to interview some of the designers who feature in the book. So I found that very rewarding and very different from most of my research.
- [35:36]
B
Yes, that's a very different process indeed. How intriguing for anyone who wants to go back in time, though of course they can read the book we've been discussing titled Street Style, Art and Dress in the Time of Caravaggio, published by reaction in 2025. Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
- [35:54]
C
Thank you so much for having me. It's been great to talk about.