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Emília Barna, "Working in Music on the Semi-Periphery: Local Cultural Production and Global Capitalism" (CEU Press, 2025)
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Welcome to the New Books Network hello and welcome to this episode of the CAE Press podcast. Today I'm talking to Emilia Barna about her new book, Working in Music on the Semi Periphery, Local Cultural Production and Global Capitalism. Emilia Barna is an Associate professor at the Department of Sociology and Communication at Budapest University of Technology and Economics. She is a sociologist and popular music scholar whose main research areas include the music industries and digitalization, popular music and gender, cultural labour, and popular music and politics. The book is available open access to CEU Press's Opening the Future program. To find out more about Opening the Future and to download Amelia's book channel, check the show notes for the links. Welcome to the podcast.
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A
Thank you very much for having me.
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B
And before we discuss your book, Working in Music on the Seven Periphery, Local Cultural Production and Global Capitalism, could you tell our listeners about your academic background?
- [02:34]
A
Yes, certainly. So, as you already kindly mentioned, I tend to say that I'm a sociologist, but I also mentioned that I'm a popular music scholar. My PhD was in popular music studies, so basically I'm interested in studying social relations and work and labor. But through the area of music, especially popular music would be perhaps the best way to Summarize it. I've done research on music scenes and technology, digital technology, and the ways in which digitalization has impacted the locality of music scenes, and then studied processes around digitalization and the music industries and power relations in the music industries, including global and hierarchies and local relations, gender and music and gender and music and technology mostly. And then I ended up doing this research on labor in music within a Hungarian context. And so music is my main area, but I teach as part of the Communication Media Studies BA and MA but mostly MA at the mentioned universities and I've been leading the cultural industries MA specialization for the past well over 12 years now. And I've also done bits and pieces of research into other areas within the cultural industries, including the fashion industry and also together with core researchers into the interdigitalization and the sex or pornographic industry, webcaming in particular, platformization and webcaming also in relation to this this work, the the book that I'm I've been a member for the Hayset Working Group for Public Sociology haeset, which is a more of an informal group of partly academics, not not only academics, but people interested in interpreting social phenomena and processes in in Hungary and Eastern Europe more broadly in a in a global and historical perspective. And the collective work within this group has strongly influenced my perspective as well.
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B
This book explores quite a lot of the themes that you were mentioning. I mean, you talk about various aspects such as informality within the industry, the impact of digitalization, the role of women and gendered relations. And also in your last chapter you talk about the role of the household. One of the last chapters, could you talk a bit about what your aims and goals with this book was?
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A
Yes. So first of all, one of the starting points for the book, and even before the book, just thinking about doing this research into work in music in a Hungarian context, was a general perception that creative labor or cultural labor, broadly understood as work in the cultural and creative industries, may be a good indication of tendencies in work in general. So researchers have identified or have been talking about such phenomena as the blurring between work or work and private life or leisure process of precarization, flexibility and exploitation, self exploitation, project based portfolio, careers and insecurity, or also what we have been identifying or talking about as the gig economy, where gig of course comes from, or also refers to music work gigs as in live gigs. So there are certain tendencies in work more generally that have perhaps for a long time characterized much creative work and work in the arts. But what I've also found Is that a lot of the time these claims are articulated from a very Western centric perspective. Much of the work done on creative labor for the past 20 years, this has been a growing area is either UK focused, there are many, many UK focused studies or based in Western Europe or the United States or some studies from Australia, but most Western centric perspective. But that doesn't necessarily reflect on. On this position. So it. So many studies generalize these claims, including the. Like the. The parallels between artistic or creative labor and tendencies in work in general, but with a. With a certain kind of blindness to. To their hegemonic position in the global order. And so I was very interested in how we can articulate an Eastern European focus and a global focus somehow rooted in the global semi periphery as opposed to the. To the global core. And I was interested in finding out about local specificities, but also how these are shaped by. By Hungary's global position. So to be more specific, I was interested in how the current Hungarian regime, the closed 2010 Fides government, have termed the system of national cooperation as an accumulation regime. And their cultural policy as well as other aspects of policy, including gender politics. So the support or lack of small and entrepreneurship, which is quite important in this area, shapes cultural labor. But also besides this platformization, for instance, as a global logic impacting cultural work. So hopefully the analysis presented in the book works on two levels. So firstly, an analysis of labor in this local context along with all of its specificities, but also as a contextualization of dominant Western centric research. And as you mentioned, yes, I was very interested in gender relations and also going beyond issues narrowly put around representation in terms of proportions of male versus female artists or industry workers. And to focus on the invisible labor of women, various forms of invisible labor and also the processes of invisibilization and naturalization of these kinds of labor. And also to take the feminist approach and in particular a Marxist or socialist feminist approach as an analytical tool to understand processes of so called. What Maria Mies calls housewifeization. So the processes of devaluation and naturalization of work. And I was able to do this with placing the household in focus. There are other studies that are now starting to point to a kind of domesticization of cultural labor that is happening partly along with digitalization. So the. With digital technology becoming more accessible and to an extent cheaper and therefore enabling work from home, including work in music from home. But how this also means that this work produced from within the home is able to be then used by corporate players and to extract value from, to sum up, the feminist lens enabled me to do this, and it also brought with it a focus on emotional labor, which helped me to scrutinize this non existent professional personal boundary, or often non existent. And it's called constant negotiation. In musical work. An important goal was to highlight various forms of unseen labor. And this includes not only women's labor, which I've already mentioned, but also the work of and contribution of various music industry professionals that are behind the scenes, and also all of the amateur work around them. And their work is usually not thought about or not thought of as work.
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B
During your research, you had another unexpected outside influence as well. I guess you can say that some of your research happened during the COVID 19 pandemic. So how did the ensuing restrictions affect your approach to the topic? Especially because there was a lot of talk about especially women getting burdened with a lot more work because of the COVID pandemic.
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A
Absolutely. Indeed, it was unexpected and something that I had to deal with also in terms of research design and methodology. But in general, I can say that this crisis, which was an economic crisis, a social crisis, even in certain ways, political crisis brought out or kind of strengthened certain tensions and problems, especially around making a living and competition, and also the dependence on live music and the institutions and gatekeepers and corporations, and also the kind of the state dependency of the live music infrastructure very much into focus. So in a way, for the research, it worked to highlight some important tensions and problems. And I just want to mention a few important conclusions that directly resulted from this situation. From this crisis situation. Indeed, as you already indicated, what happened during the COVID crisis was that it strengthened processes of, what I call, again referring to Maria Mises term, the process of housewifeization. So the concentration of work devalued, naturalized work within the household. And in one of the chapters, I explore in detail how various forms of work, so creative tasks blend in with or merge inextricably with various forms of reproductive work. So household chores and care work. Yeah. So this process, and along with it, the burden on women in particular, certainly strengthened during this period. And I could see, just to speak a little bit about the experiences of musicians and music industry workers that came across during the interviews I was doing at the time, the vast differences in the experiences and how musicians were feeling during this period in between mothers, mother musicians with children versus young, relatively well off male musicians, who, some of whom, not necessarily all of them, but some of whom were basically using this period as a kind of a space for perhaps more experimentation and sitting back a little bit and thinking about their careers, as opposed to the extremely busy and chaotic lives that some of the female musicians with children running households had to endure. So, yeah, this was one important conclusion. And another one was the increase of political control that we were seeing during this period, partly through the selective allocation of funding of aid to musicians and music industry workers, mostly musicians, actually. And it actually overrode some of my earlier conclusions or findings regarding the incoherence basically of cultural policy in this popular music sphere. So there was definitely an increase of ideological control as well during this time and a more conscious use of the popular music field for political campaigning and propaganda. And then thirdly, I was also interested in and saw some moments of temporary politicization in a field that tended to remain mostly apolitical. What I call in the kind of strategic or pragmatic apoliticism, but this temporary. So this moment of politicization didn't necessarily last long, but there were also some attempts to unionize or articulate collective interests in certain, not necessarily formal ways. But again, and I reflect on these in the last chapter, these didn't last. So I was also looking at this kind of instances of fragile solidarity at the time. And maybe just one more thing to mention in relation to this is something that I found was how in the case of bands or artists who had a team around them, this broader team tended to serve as a kind of immediate unit of solidarity during the time of crisis, including emotional, but also material aid. So kind of strengthening of relations of care, but within these small units, not necessarily across broader networks.
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B
I have a few questions about this politics seeping into the music industry, I guess, But I thought that for the listeners who are not really familiar with the Hungarian music industry, could you say a few words about how the music industry in Hungary changed from the communist period to the post communist period?
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A
Yes, just very briefly, that's very important to highlight that during the state socialist period, there is a strong state controlled infrastructure with one state controlled record label, state controlled media. So there is a strong control on publicity as well, which meant certain level of security in material terms for certain selected artists, and then informality and illegality even for. For many other musicians. And this system explains why creative autonomy tends to be defined against the state still today a lot of the time, not all, not only in the Hungarian context, but I think in post socialist Eastern Europe in general. And from the 1990s, there is an integration into the global market in the music industry. And Hungary integrates into the global music market as a consumer market primarily so as consumers of the products of mostly the so called major record labels who also establish some subsidiaries in Hungary, which last up until the crisis with digitalization when they leave Hungary and many other smaller countries. But besides that, there is Also in the 1990s a proliferation of local players, radio, commercial pop music, radio stations, music magazines, newspapers, a lot of small record labels, partly relying on small entrepreneurship. And one of the interesting things for me, which also sometimes so I was able to trace these in interviews, is how the roots of this small entrepreneurship often go back already into the 1980s or stem from the 1980s. So there is a little bit of opening up already in the 1980s. So I do not cover the 1990s in detail. I think more research would be required to be able to do that. But I want to mention that Anna Semmer's 2001 book up from the the Culture of Rock Music in Hungary, which was published by Pennsylvania State University Press, does a really good job of tracing people and small record labels that grow out of the 1980s alternative music culture in the 1990s and what happens to those musicians and how they form new networks. Partly so she has done a lot of this work. And maybe one more thing to mention that in the 1990s immediately discourses of so with this integration into the global market, immediately discourses of lagging behind the west and the necessity of catching up. So this kind of moralized discourse is being formed. And I think the music industry or popular music is an important area where such discourses narratives are being permeated and actively reproduced to this day.
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B
Let's go forward to the post 2010s and in chapter two you write about the kind of various Hungarian government programs through which musicians can receive funding, as well as about how they can or like the exposure they can gain from being on radio. So how does this funding work? And how did the transformation of the public radio broadcaster Peter Ferradio affect musicians?
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A
Yes, I will start going back a few years before the 2010 turn because rebranding or refocusing of public Service radio station Mr.2 in 2007 was an important step taken and a conscious step on the part of those media workers in the direction of supporting basically up and coming bands and artists broadly belonging to the very broadly understood alternative music seen mostly rock based, but but even broader than that, so incorporating some world music and maybe some electronic or rap based music as well at the time. And so there was a period between 2007 and 2012 certainly maybe we can add a few more years when the radio was really active in supporting such up and coming bands, giving them publicity, and also closely working together with music festivals, live music festivals, who were also really strong, had a strong presence at this time, and growing audiences at the time who also gave the stage to the same band. Up to this day, many musicians speak about this era as a kind of golden age because it was seen as quite an open, quite transparent system. But then because of the centralization and hugely increasing political control on public service media, this system was changed also actually due to basically a decision to follow international more closely the global trends in popular music as well, and to cater to, I suppose, a partly different audience, but also very much due to the downsizing of staff within the public service media, within the institution of public service media, this changed. And the repertoire, actually the Hungarian music repertoire was drastically reduced around 2014, 2016. But parallel to this, starting from 2014, a support program for funding popular music was established. This program was, was unprecedented and many musicians were happy with it. During the time of the study as well, there was always some criticism, but generally many musicians have benefited from this program. So support for recording albums, touring, producing videos and so forth. But what's interesting is that, and even people responsible for implementing the program were very critical about this. When I spoke to them, they weren't able to then back the support of these selected artists by giving them publicity on public service radio, for instance, because there was no, and still is no coordination between the two, which is quite interesting, which is partly also why I thought that was kind of a lack of coherence in terms of cultural policy or control. But what this certainly achieved was a dependence on the infrastructure of this national cultural fund backed scheme. And also very much uncertain gatekeepers, mostly live music promoters, festival club promoters and owners, who are of course always selective. And many musicians were very critical about the lack of transparency, selection criteria, the very male dominated character of this network. Yeah, so definitely a dependence on key live music gatekeepers and the funding program itself as a gatekeeper. So this was characteristic for the era that I looked at. And I also argue in the book that the pool of supported musicians, even though this is never stated explicitly in the goals of the program, but it outlines a specific music segment, a broadly rock music based segment, and there are various other segments, including the broadly defined hip hop music or hip hop ified pop music segment that remain outside of this, that are not beneficiaries of the program and have to rely on other means in order to, well, to succeed or just to try to reach audiences. This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.
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B
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A
Yes, initially during the so called first wave of the pandemic, there was basically no support from the government with the exception of some small tax relief for those in those small entrepreneurs who were part of a specific tax scheme or making use of it. But unlike many Western European countries where musicians and other creative workers immediately or almost immediately began to receive support, sometimes really generous support, this wasn't the case in Hungary. And this wasn't the case for quite a long time for half a year, leaving musicians and music industry workers really vulnerable. And in fact many, especially behind the scenes workers such as technicians just immediately left music and began working, for instance in factories or retail. And many of them stayed there as well or stayed in other jobs because they realized that there was no security. And then when funding was finally introduced towards the end of summer of 2020, it was in a way that was highly well, first of all it was only aimed at musicians and it was highly selective. So it relied on certain established once again gatekeepers such as the head of some major festivals in Hungary or the head of big Hungarian record label to apply their own selection criteria and then invite some musicians, some groups and musicians to perform. As part of this was the so called warehouse gigs program as part of a closed live show without an audience that was then recorded and released via a streaming platform that is owned by a company that is close to the government. So this already indicates that actually what happened is that a lot of the resources, the money that was allocated was then benefiting certain companies that were responsible for the production or the distribution of the content that was created by the musicians. In addition to some support that some selected artists received. It was not much and it was also very divisive of the scene and debated. And then a year later in 2021, which is already the it was already the autumn of the the following year was an election year and then the government used a similar program. This time this consisted of gigs around the country in various locations for open political campaigning. So basically bands again and artists again received fees which counted as support in exchange for web playing to local audiences. The local fitness politician would be able to go up on stage and have their photograph taken with them. So there was a direct political use or benefit for political players. Initially there was no funding, and then when funding came, it was used for political purposes, partly in terms of campaigning and representation, and partly just basically using it to allocate funds to people and bodies, corporations close to the government. In the meantime, the majority of workers in the music industry were left to absorb the costs of this crisis. And as I already mentioned, for survival, musicians and industry workers relied on typically on non musical day jobs, either pre existing ones or new ones, their savings if they had any, or what Wilma Dunaway describes as the reorganization of the household work portfolio and the reallocation of household resources. Again, as I already mentioned, a lot of the time this meant extra burden for women within the household.
- [29:20]
B
Your third chapter deals with the hip hop scene in Hungary and you already mentioned before that they were shut out of government programs. And from your chapter it seemed to me that perhaps because they are shut out of these government programs that these artists tend to be on the more entrepreneurial side and perhaps also a bit more digitally skilled than some of their rock and rock pop musician pairs.
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A
Perhaps one clarification that I do not approach hip hop as a as a scene, but rather as a more broadly defined labor process based definition where I do not only mean hip hop groups or artists in a very narrow sense, but those pop acts or R and B or newer genres such as trap that are definitely hip hop based in the sense that they use a a beat and then some vocals, whether it's rapping and or singing. But what unites these is beyond this approach in the creative process is that they primarily been able to utilize YouTube as a platform for polarizing and promoting themselves. And yes, it's very important that the majority of these artists are excluded both from the government funding programs, but also festivals. They tend not to be invited to the major paying festivals. They tend rather to play either at free events or a lot of the time small club gigs. And typically they would do two or even three performances per night, moving from one small town to the next small town. So quite a hectic and demanding live performance schedule. And this exclusion is also, it tends to be made ostensibly on a. Or articulated as based on taste. Like they're too commercial for the profile of the given music festival or for radio, or too vulgar perhaps in the case of parties. But arguably there is a lot of class and race or racialization based exclusion taking place. Many of these artists are of Roma cultural background and or lower class. So as I mentioned before, rock remains overly hegemonic in the. In the funded and supported segment of popular music. And as a result these artists indeed have become particularly well attuned to the demands of streaming and social media platforms. And they are very much attentive to metrics and again all of the logics of end demand of these platforms and producing content for audiences and being available to audiences, putting a lot of emotional labor or relational labor into communicating with audiences, doing a lot of self promotion and also relying on sponsorship by various firms. And these are also things that artists in the hegemonic rock world also have to do. But they often do it with more reluctance or invest more labor into maintaining authenticity or articulating authenticity, distancing themselves from the sponsors or the demands of platforms. So yeah, I think it's a structural. It's very much a structural constraint that these artists have had to be more attuned to the demands of platforms. But in a way their exclusion or their lack of dependence, in other words, on state dependent infrastructure. Also in a way, it's a strange word to use, but protected them during the COVID crisis. And their reliance on other ways made sure that they could continue basically producing content almost without a stop. But I also talk a lot in the book about the demands of this or the difficulties of this and the toll that it takes on the daily lives of these artists.
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B
We have already talked about the household as being a kind of crucial semi peripheral space. And in the book you write that, you know, it's both as a. You look at it both a social environment and as an economic unit. I was just wondering whether you could say a few words about how the role of the household changed from the communist era to the post communist period.
- [33:53]
A
Yes, perhaps it's best to start with a little bit, a clarification of the theoretical background to this. And here I rely partly on world systems analysis, partly on Marxist feminism and people who like the already mentioned Wilmet Dunaway, who combine these two areas, but also on informality studies. And so an important underlying thought to this analysis is that the so called semi proletarian households of the global semi periphery that combine wage work and various other forms of labor, paid and unpaid, productive and reproductive, informal and formal. So including things like putting out systems or during socialism, the so called second economy, homesteading and various forms of household based small entrepreneurship. So this is the typical household of the Eastern European semi periphery as well. And it's important to recognize that such production, household based production and the reproductive contribution of the household has served as a grounding basis of capital accumulation. So capitalism wouldn't be able to work or to stand without this a lot of the time. Invisible and invisibilized contribution. And in relation to the global core, there is more of informal work produced within or around the household that contributes to capital accumulation, not only on the semi periphery, but globally. So in other words, the majority of invisible household labor is performed outside of the global core. And I think with regards to this there is a. We can observe a continuity between the socialist period and the post socialist and the current period. So such partly informal household based production and labor continues to be important, as I show in the book, also from the perspective of the music industries for the production of music and the COVID 19 crisis shows households become increasingly important at the time of crisis. And this could also be seen after the regime change in the first half of the 1990s, that households would basically absorb the damage caused by economic crisis at the time, privatization, segments of the population becoming unemployed and then, and then home based, partly informal small entrepreneurship trying to absorb the cost of some of that. So this is something that doesn't necessarily change with the political regime changing. Rather we see a kind of back and forth. So as I mentioned, when there is a crisis, there's certainly more of this kind of labor becomes crucial in ensuring subsistence. Basically, yeah. What is different with regard to informal or domestic based labor in relation to music during state socialism and in the 1990s is that. And I show this through some examples from the 1980s in that context. Again, as I mentioned, strong state control. And then most of the creative activities, musical activities taking place outside sanctioned spaces and infrastructures of music making are illegal, or at least a gray area, they gain political significance. So such activities as music education taking place in private spaces, house parties, performances which are also recorded, recordings are also distributed, created and distributed within homes. So there are all these private spaces that provide space for much music related activity and labor. And it has a direct political significance. All of this continues in the 1990s as well and up until today, but without this a political meaning or political constraint. Rather it's merely economic and social. But I think the continuities are stronger than the differences in this sense.
- [38:27]
B
We've talked a lot about this little separation between work and life in the music industry and household, and obviously these are all affecting women and female musicians, but also partners and spouses of male musicians. Could you talk a bit more about this dynamic?
- [38:45]
A
I look at how various forms of reproductive labour, so housework and care, work, emotional labor and creative labor and other forms of what are understood as productive work take place and intersect within the household. And especially I talk about music and motherhood and examples where women musicians are also mothers and caring partners alongside being creative partners and managers of their own and a lot of the time their partners careers as well. And what's interesting here is that these contributions a lot of the time are automatic, naturalized and structured by the dominant patriarchal gender relations. So they are not. Yeah, they are viewed as natural even by the people performing them and not as work a lot of the time. So there are many examples of female partners who sometimes are musicians themselves, acting as managers of their male partners. And in this case, of course, they're not. There's no contract, they're not paid, it becomes part of the marriage or the household, or it's not necessarily, of course, a formalized relationship a lot of the time these are not necessarily married couples. Or for instance, if you think of situations where just everyday situations where there's a social media post or some kind of problem, some kind of, I don't know, audience comment that needs to be responded to. And the female partner in the home helps in resolving the issue or perhaps actively manages the social media presence of the male musician partner. Or there are examples of the female partner doing the accounts of the male musician. So these are kind of natural everyday contributions, but they do add up to a lot. And taking of a more structural perspective, I was really interested in thinking about how all of this invisible and unpaid contribution forms part of what becomes the musical product that is then being sold on the market and making profit. Not necessarily only or even mostly to the musician, but a record label or platform, companies. Yeah. So besides this, another thing that comes from this analysis or another realization is how Outside of the sphere of the household, for instance in a band setting, in the rehearsal room, on tour, functions of care, housekeeping in the sense of organizing things, reminding the band when to come to practice, keeping a note of things and so forth tends to automatically fall or and or be assumed by women. So in examples where there's a male dominated band with one female member, it tended to be always the female member who took on tasks of basically partly managing the band and organizing things, which shows how these tasks are naturalized as feminine tasks. Yeah, so these are just some of the main ideas here.
- [42:16]
B
And as a last question, could you tell us what you are working on now?
- [42:19]
A
Yes. One of the things that I've burdened since the book is to continue exploring actually the global local dynamics in the industry and in musical labor through music streaming. So effects of platformization by focusing on the local or locally based intermediaries between musicians and the global platforms. And these include so called digital music distributors and people working for them as well as local organizations such as collecting societies. And basically how they are positioned in this global ecosystem of streaming, how they influence or shape the work of musicians locally, but also the opportunities, how they negotiate, how they resist sometimes global platform logics, how they negotiate the opportunities of local artists. And there is a chapter coming out in a book that is edited by David Hesmondhart called Music Streaming around the World with many, many interesting contributions from really many places around the world, many different contexts that is on this I've also together with a team of five researchers, been editing a special issue in the journal Popular Music and Society which is called Home Work and Music, which again partly in line with this previous research, explores the domestic sphere and again partly the household as a place and a social and economic and political space for music. This should come out later this year as well. And I'm also just as a third thing, not related to music but doing research together with a colleague on again the fashion industry. So people from Hungary working in various roles in the fashion industry abroad and very interested in basically Eastern Hungariness and Eastern European ness in the global fashion industry.
- [44:27]
B
Thank you for coming on the podcast.
- [44:29]
A
Thank you very much.
- [44:30]
B
And Emilia Barna's book Working in Music on the Semi Periphery, Local Cultural Production and Global Capitalism is available open access. All the links and everything are in the show notes below. Thank you very much for listening and don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our new episodes. Thank you. Goodbye.