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Yup, there it is.
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C
Hello everyone and welcome to nbn. I am your host, Holly Gaddery and I'm excited to be joined today by Farah Gafor, who is an award winning poet living on the traditional territory of the Anishinaabeg, the Mississaugas of the Credit and the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat people. Her work was awarded the E.J. pratt Medal and Prize in Poetry, long listed for the CBC Poetry Prize, is taught in university courses and published in the Walrus, the Fiddlehead Room and elsewhere. Raised in New Brunswick and Southern Ontario, Gahar now works in Toronto as an accountant. Farrah, welcome to the show. Hi.
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B
Thank you for having me.
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C
Oh, it's so lovely to have you here to talk about.
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B
I forgot to say what we're talking.
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C
About your collection of poems, Shadow Price, which was published by the wonderful House of Anasi. So what I want to ask you first, Arab, is we were on a panel together at Grit lit in Hamilton, which for those of you who don't know, is a really cool literary festival in beautiful Hamilton, Ontario. And I didn't know what Shadow Price meant until I heard you say it. I thought that'd be an interesting place to start. So shadow price, what does this term even mean?
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B
So this is an economic term that means the estimated good or the estimated price for a good or service for which no market price exists. And so basically what that means is that when we put something on the market that doesn't exactly have a price, we have to look at surrounding factors to sort of find the monetary value of it. So, for example, if you wanted to see, if you wanted to look at how a park in a public area, in an urban area might increase, like, the social wellness and the health of the surrounding residents, you might look at how the prices of those houses in that area where the park is, they might increase after the park is there. And so this term is usually used for cost benefit analyses. But what I found was that it really connected to all of the themes that I wanted to explore in this book. And that's kind of how it ended up being the title of the collection.
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C
Your book is about so much. But it also feels like it's distilled down to this really pearly bit as well. Like it walks, it has legs, it goes everywhere. But I felt like I was constantly coming back in my brain to a kind of pendulum swing between hope and despair and hope and despair, and existing in that movement and knowing that you were never going to stay in one place and that it was, you know, you can, you can try to hold on to the hope, but then there was going to be despair. And I would love for you to talk about movement in your poems because your poems have such gorgeous movement in them. I'm looking at the Dream Eaters, which I. Which I marked. And I felt like this poem was such a dark jewel, but also I like. And it was very, like, solid in its jewellness. But I also felt like I was constantly moving in it between those two. Those two points. And. Yeah, so I'd love for you to talk about that.
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B
Of course. So I try to. I think it's very important for me to stay hopeful whether it's like in my everyday life and also in my writing regarding the climate crisis. And so when I was writing a poem like this, I needed to. I needed to communicate to the reader that there is still things that we can do to slow down the climate crisis. And so I try to do that, especially through the accessibility in my writing. I try to. I try to make these poems that. I try to write these poems in a way that people of different backgrounds, different literary backgrounds can read them and they can understand them and they can feel everything that I'm trying to put in these poems, whether it's hope or despair and the writing of Shadow Price, overall, I was trying to fit so much, honestly negative information in there that. Well, not particularly negative information, but information that would, I'm sure, elicit negative emotions in the readers that they needed to know. I felt like, well, it was my aim to create enough hope in those pockets of, in those pockets of positivity and optimism and action throughout the, throughout the book. So the reader would honestly be compelled to keep reading. Because sometimes when I'd read an overly, like a very negative book, I'm just like, oh. Sometimes after I put it down, I feel like, oh, this is going to be way too emotional for me to jump back in. And so creating those pockets of hope between those pockets of despair, that was something that I was trying to balance and trying to keep in mind the reader, especially as I was ordering these poems too.
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C
Yeah, thank you for that. And it occurred to me as you were talking that I really didn't introduce this collection to our audience. I just was really excited to talk, talk about it just went full steam. I think one of my favorite blurbs that I read about your book was from Craig Santos Perez, who wrote in this profound and engrossing debut, Faraga for explores the impacts of capitalism, colonialism and extra activism on human multi species worlds. I, I mean, there's all those words in there, those really buzzy words. And I remember when I read that I expected to go in and like feel this buzz. But what I felt was something so deeply human and so deeply intimate and so deeply introspective. And I thought that was such a gorgeous way to incite awareness and action. So instead of just talking at people and using buzzy words, Craig's blurb does go on, by the way. Everyone, you buy the book and read all of them. They're wonderful. I, instead of, you know, being talked at, I really felt like I was being talked to. And there is such a intimate quality to your poetry where I feel like the poet is speaking directly into somebody. And I was wondering if you could talk about a little bit about distilling and bringing your language down to something like right, right down to this basis where it felt really personal. Everything felt personal. These big global concepts suddenly felt incredibly personal. And thereby by making it incredibly personal, I think that's what made me feel like, okay, I've got to do more. I've got to do more. Because this isn't something that's happening somewhere else. This is happening to me. It is happening to people I love. It's happening to spaces I've spent my life in.
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B
Absolutely. So I think one way I tried to really talk to the reader was I was using the pronoun I more than I was using the pronoun you or we. Because when you use you or we, it's. It immediately immediately becomes impersonal and it becomes some. Sometimes accusatory. And I think in the beginning, in the very beginning, when I was trying to write about the climate crisis, there was a lot of you and we and how we're all implicit in this crisis. But it was through understanding the climate crisis on my own terms, through time and through time and water. That collection I talk about all the time in every interview. I'm so sure everybody's so sick of talk about it, but bringing. Bringing the cr. Bringing the climate down to the personal, that was how I started to understand my place in the world and my place in, like, this movement. And so I was trying to put. I was trying to reflect that in my writing by also, like, bringing these. Bringing these big ideas down to everyday actions, like whether it's stepping on a snail and realizing our power in the world or being driven through orange cones, which continue to represent, like, the development of society regardless of the consequences. I found that using these specific voices helped me talk intimately to the reader as if I was talking to a friend. And in some parts of the book, there's a lot of intern. There's some internal argument. I think I write, oh, well, it wasn't really like this. The way you kind of talk to yourself and the way you kind of check in with yourself to make sure that you're approaching a situation in the right way. I wanted many of these poems to reflect that kind of internal struggle and that recognition that the reader is facing the same problem as the speaker. And that kind of similarity between the. Between the reader and the speaker. That is, I think, what closes that gap. Like, the poet isn't speaking from like, this. This pedestal where, like, oh, you guys. You guys aren't doing enough. I'm doing enough. I wanted the reader to know that we're all together in this situation and we're all thinking the same things. And if we're all really that similar, we can all. We can all work together in a. In a better way.
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C
I love what you just said there. It reflects a sentiment that I carry with me, and especially in moments where I feel angry or triggered. And I always remind myself, like a mantra, there's more that unites us and Divides us across, you know, politics and, you know, love and countries and everything. There's just so much more that unites us and abides us. We, we, we share more than we don't share. And I wish more could be boiled down to that. The next question before I ask you to read is something I found really delightful and surprising in your book. And I heard you read this poem when we, I believe it was when we were on the panel together. Otherwise, it's somewhere else. I was quietly stalking you. I'm not sure, but it's a Bigfoot mayor of carbon land. And I found it lovely to have these, these little bits of. These little shards of humor in the book, even though you're talking about something serious. Of course, I'd love for you to talk about how you use humor and satire and sarcasm, just a healthy amount of sarcasm to, to add more power to your work.
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B
Of course. Well, I, I've always loved to make people laugh as much as I like to make people cry, especially through my work. And so I'm really glad that humor got across because I feel like it's much harder to get that across, like, on the page than it is, like, if you're reading the poem aloud or like, through spoken word poetry. And so it was important for me to add humor and kind of like sometimes satire or a sarcastic voice because I feel like it also humanizes the speaker and the poet to the reader. Like, I wanted this to sort of some of these poems at least to be sort of an inside joke. Like, I get you. You get me. This is this ironic situation that we're in, and this is something that, as serious as it is, we can laugh at it. And I think that's a special brand of dark humor that I was trying to implement in the book because, I mean, I like to. I like funny poems, too, and I like funny writers. And so bringing the reader, bringing the reader closer inward to the thoughts and the emotions of the speaker, as funny as they are, was also one of my goals in these poems in the collection.
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C
When did making plans get this complicated?
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A
It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together.
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C
Use polls to settle dinner plans, send.
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A
Event invites, and pin messages so no.
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C
One forgets mom's 60th.
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A
And never miss a meme or milestone.
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C
All protected with end to end encryption.
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A
It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com this episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and Music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. Limu Gay Mo and Doug Limu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music. Limu. Save yourself money today. Increase your wealth.
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B
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A
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C
Yeah, I absolutely love how humor can be such a powerful mechanism to both relieve pressure like almost like an air like an overblown tire and then but also like electrify us into action so like release and then we're like recharged to do something about it. Because laughter and humor is you can works both ways to decompress and recharge people. And I really love that poem. And there's other little beautiful tidbits in your pieces where that energy is woven through the entire collection, but it comes back and, you know, just tickles and delights and inspires. So with that said, I would love for you to read to us from your collection.
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B
Of course I can start with Bigfoot, Mayor of Carbon Land. And then I will read the titular poem, Shadow Pride. Bigfoot, Mayor of Carbon Land. When our mountains were pervaded with smoke, we slept through its black commotion, masked as directed, until the sky cleared to a healthy copper. Its glow reflected onto the lakes coated in aluminum wire, oil and the glimmering plastic wrap that Bigfoot had given us out of the goodness of his heart. That heart, invisible and rich as a groomer, was so romantic he asked for everyone's hand in marriage. Florid as the air and the water, we submitted to his ember gaze before that handsome suit we let our better half name the children and schedule in their lives. Proper schooling and work shifts at Bigfoot Industries. When the children overnight were hewn like redwood by the smoke's thick arm. His press release suggested we change our ovens, so we built more efficient ones with Bigfoot materials and were commissioned by Bigfoot to promote them with our best recipes, the most luxurious of which we offered to him when the children off work and playing ball in the streets were stampeded by the fat hooves of his red cows. Bigfoot's newspaper suggested meatless Mondays and gardening, after which from from the windows the cows stared into our faithfully fresh salads with their myriad digital eyes. When the children, eyes dried to sand by the teething heat, crashed their Bigfoot cars, his engineers kindly installed extra mirror and and his representatives thoughtfully lobbied for more effectual driving lessons, which the children took before passing away in his hospitals, their bodies hidden from public view. When the fish ingested all of the Bigfoot water bottles, sheet masks and other daily items into the lakes and entered sterile into our beautiful new era, we pitied them over funeral dinners of supple Bigfoot seafood is and boneless. They were convenient sources of energy, especially for the underprivileged to gorge on, and for which we thanked Bigfoot at every meal. When some of us, between distractions, missed our children and put forward a complaint, Bigfoot invited us to an official presentation in the square of his downtown office, shot through uniformed security dogs and projected onto every screen in the city. He stood tall as a flag and anthem, a white shining welcome. With his long tongue he sweetly gifted us, constructed constructive feedback on how in the mirrored rooms of our houses we could fix ourselves. And we accepted it all with appropriate concern and pleasure as our children's children were sold to the market behind our bolted chairs. And as always, when Bigfoot strode silently away to tend to the media, he left a hot shimmer of perfume above footprints as wide and deep as canyons. Out of politeness we never questioned them, not even then, returning quietly to our underground Bigfoot homes, which were as dark and wooden and predictable as the night. And the second poem is called Shadowprice. Most people thought the industry instead of those gracing the gears, risk averse and careful not to be specific. Without all of your information, the insurance company can only profit through group insurance. I almost worked in insurance. Whenever I'm in a car at a dangerous intersection, I think, if I die, I die. There's only so much you can do away from the wheel. I take a class on healthcare economics and calculate the statistical value of a life. The more danger involved, the higher the wage to compensate. A market value that is inferred and not directly observed is called the shadow price. I take a class on the economics of education and complete my degree. I chose a safe major. I am risk averse, weak even. I am bad at lying, always ending with a laugh. What's so funny? We're all going to the same place anyway. I don't like to drive. I don't like the smell of oil. I imagine getting high off of it. I have never smoked anything. I'm risk averse, you see, and so afraid of everything. Sometimes when a stranger speaks to me on public transportation, I jump. The median estimate of a statistical value of a Life is about $4.9 million. I'm not tested on this, so I forget it. I'm looking for a job, preferably one that doesn't require driving. As a teenager, my hypothetical freedom was satiated from the safety of my bedroom. I read socialist articles on my phone as I was driven between orange cones, birds dropping dead outside the window. What a shame, I thought, fumes fluttering in my throat. I love birds. I imagined that they fell like stars and began typing out a poem. The past brimmed with dead things cooling in the air conditioning. There must be a job to calculate their price. Demand is invented. Every day the birds disappear under the heat and rain. They are buried by rocks, gravel, pavement. There is always construction going on, a kind of fossilization group insurance, balancing out those who claim benefits and those who do not. You can argue that the past doesn't exist. You can throw it into the drying river, you can set it on fire, pour it into your car, get high off of it. I am an adult, so I am predictable. I'm an adult, so I drive. I choose to, or it is chosen for me. Most economists do what they're told you must understand. They quantify the resources, calculate the risks, evaluate and present the numbers. Often it is up to others to act on this information. Most people who want to lead are following a higher order. Their futures are chosen for them as they drive carefully through construction, laughing. If I die, I die. Learning to ignore even the child screaming next to them.
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C
Thank you so much for those gorgeous poems. I remember reading that image the first time of the being driven through yellow pylons with the birds dropping. And it was just such a, you know, air then when the air catches in your lungs moment for me. I could feel it and see everything so clearly. So I have a question for you that I wrote down. And then looking at it, I'm like, I don't want to ask this. So now I'm going to anyway. But I don't want to ask it because. Story time with Aunt Holly here. My most fraught relationship, my most fraught professional relationship is probably with my accountant. Because I'm. I'm not my. My. My mind does not work that way. And I have this person who is always trying to be like, you have to follow up with this, you have to keep this, you have to, you know, checks and balances. Holly. And I'm like, what about hugs and vibes? Do these. And no. He's like, no, stop. So, but when I was reading your book, I, I jotted down economics and poetics interplay and I feel like you've captured something there. But not having economically brained self, I, I can't quite put my finger on the pulse of what I'm trying to identify. And I guess I'm wondering if you can the interplay between economics and poetics that you've, I believe, really beautifully captured in this book.
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B
So economics to me is another resource that I pull from when I'm trying to make sense of the world. And so it really is like everything we do, whether or not it's like, whether or not it's accounting, whether or not it's, you know, checks and balances or even just buying something at the store. It's all, it's the foundation of our lives as long as we live here. And whether or not it's going to change, hopefully it does get better for everybody and all these crises are solved.
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C
But.
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B
When I'm trying to make sense of like for example, why we have the housing crisis, why, why there's so many oligopolies in Canada, I turn to poetry. I think, how does this exactly relate to my life? How does this relate to how I interact with the world and how it interacts back with me? And to me that's where they intersect because poetry is where I go to try to figure out the truth. It's my tool for investigation and my tool for understanding. And in my, the way people explore, use memory as a resource or they use nature or politics as a resource, I turn to economics as well because that's also the knowledge base that I had when I was writing this book.
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C
I feel like I learned more or understood more about economically why we are the way we are or how economics interferes sometimes and affects my everyday life. I understood more about that after reading your book than any class I ever took. So if anyone is out there, struggling high school students, listen to me, just pick up Shadow Grace and I think it will help you a little bit because I feel like whenever I think about economics or arguably anything remotely mathematical or I don't want to say logical because poetry is very logical. And I think saying otherwise is, does it a disservice, but there's a certain resistance in my brain. Maybe it has something to do with the way it was taught to me kind of similar to how when I talk to some students going to classrooms and they're resistant to poetry because of something that was the way it was presented to them first. Like, I. I think that's perhaps how I feel about economics. You know, one bad class in university ruined me forever. And I'm partly to be blamed there of. But I felt like it's this pin economic. When I think of it, it's this like pin in a wall just stuck in there or a nail. And then what your book did was it like pulled it out instead of a hole, what came out was like rainbows and leaves and vines and life and everything and a baby crying and birds and like, it was like I just saw how this one thing affects everything and how this one thing, how everything bleeds into each other. And your book is like just this really wonderful exploration of that. So. Thank you, Sarah.
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B
Thank you.
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C
Making me less scared of economics.
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B
Yeah. I think the thing is economics and money, it's just the way it's presented in society. They. It's as. As long as, like, economics is prioritized over ethics in like, almost every business decision, every. Almost every decision in our lives, that's what keeps. That's what contributes at least to the inaccessibility of that language. Because I feel like that kind of wall between students and poetry and also economics is that they don't get it. And so they, they don't. I mean, from a distance, they think, oh, it's too intimidating because I don't immediately understand it. And so for poetry, you just have to start. In my opinion, you just have to start reading things that relate to you and you gradually grow in understanding and you think, oh, this is something I can do too. And so what I'm trying to do also in my work is make economics more accessible to people. And that's what I'm really interested in. And I'm really glad. I'm really glad to hear that it's actually working.
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C
Yeah. I was thinking maybe I should go back and read six not so easy pieces, like some really complex math book that blew my mind when I tried to read it. I'm like, no, we're. We're just going to stay with, with Shadow Pricer. I'm, I'm happy here because you're right, I think, you know, is it a method of control or systemic oppression that often when you hear people in positions of power talking about economics that they're using a language? I feel like, do you know this is completely Inaccessible for most people. Like, are you trying to just, you.
- [32:21]
B
Know, are trying to do that? They know that it's inaccessible. And.
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C
Yeah, if you don't understand, then how can you argue? No, like. And I was your, your, your poem, your collection of poems left me with so many wonderful questions. Not, not about. Actually, the questions weren't all wonderful. The, the collection was great. But I mean, they left me with so many questions about why the world is the way it is. And you know, it opened up a realm of. A realm that I hadn't realized or hadn't. So I. Maybe I realized, but I didn't think much about how like that this system of oppression, economics as a system of explanation, but also how it is wielded as a weapon of oppression as well. And I started to think about stuff like that without being immediately afraid and feeling like I was too stupid to understand because I don't think I am stupid. I think that I've just convinced myself and been convinced that this is something I can't possibly understand when no Shadow Prices show me I'm perfectly capable of understanding it. Which was a lovely treat to me because I spend most of my life telling myself that I don't understand anything. So it was such a moment of liberation for me and I thank you for it. And I recommend everyone else again, pick up Shadow Price. It's published by Husband Nassian, available wherever books are bought or borrowed. I have one more question for you and is what I'm excited to hear the answer about and that's what are you working on now?
- [33:53]
B
I am currently working on my second collection. I've not gotten very far in it, so you will probably maybe see it in many years. But I'm starting work on my second collection and I'm hoping to go even harder into economics in this one. I think that this is a topic that I'm never going to stop being interested in. And bringing economics to poetry is something that I think can help a lot of people as much as it. As much as it's helped me.
- [34:26]
C
Well, it's already helping me. So I thank you so much for writing this beautiful collection, everybody. Again, we are talking to Farah Kafor about Shadow Price poems, which published House of Anasi and available once more wherever books are bought or borrowed. Pick it up, read it, tell Farrah and me and anyone who will listen how much you love it. Thank you so much for joining me today.
- [34:49]
B
Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.