Podcast Summary:

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Florian Wagner, "Colonial Internationalism and the Governmentality of Empire, 1893–1982" (Cambridge UP, 2022)
Host: Eliza Prosperetti
Guest: Florian Wagner, Assistant Professor of History, University of Erfurt
Date: February 9, 2026

Overview

This episode features Eliza Prosperetti interviewing historian Florian Wagner about his book Colonial Internationalism and the Governmentality of Empire, 1893–1982. The discussion centers on Wagner’s groundbreaking research into the International Colonial Institute (ICI)—a transnational organization that profoundly shaped European colonial practices and postcolonial global governance. The conversation explores the ICI’s elusive visibility, its self-identification as "progressive," and its enduring legacies within development, anti-racism rhetoric, and international institutions, challenging prevalent narratives about the evolution and reform of colonialism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Invisibility of the International Colonial Institute

• Wagner's Entry Into the Topic

  • Wagner’s research began during his undergraduate and master’s studies in Germany and France, when he noticed collaboration between supposedly nationalist colonial lobbyists across Europe.
  • Discovery of the ICI’s French founder, Joseph Charibert, and its cross-European formation was pivotal.
  • Quote:
    • “I was surprised to see that colonial lobby groups that were considered as being nationalist…were actually cooperating across borders.” (03:18)

• Why the ICI Remains Obscure

  • Historians traditionally treat colonialism as a nationalist enterprise, neglecting the ICI’s transnational activities.
  • The ICI worked behind the scenes, supplying and collecting information, often dispersed in fragmented archives.
  • Quote:
    • “It was quite some work, and I had to search quite a while to find all the evidence to put together the full picture.” (05:53)

2. Founding Ethos and the Power of ‘Internationalism’

• The 1893 Amsterdam Dinner

  • The ICI was born from dinners among European colonial experts in 1893, aiming to exchange knowledge systematically about colonization methods.
  • Quote:
    • “They wanted to…exchange knowledge about how the others colonized…see whether the other colonized in a better or more successful way.” (07:39)

• The Significance of ‘International’

  • ‘International’ implied cross-border progressivism and served as a public relations move to recast colonialism as reformist.
  • Quote:
    • “Labeling the International Colonial Institute as an international project and also progressive project was a way also to save colonialism from ruin and to give it a better name.” (10:10)

3. Professionalizing and Scientizing Colonialism

• The Push for ‘Professional’ Colonizers

  • The ICI drove the creation of colonial training schools across Europe, standardizing curricula, advocating respect for “native” culture and languages (a form of cultural relativism), and promoting physical training for colonial administrators.
  • Quote:
    • “They get prepared in Europe studying so called indigenous culture law and, and languages. And this is an idea that prevails…until the post World War II period.” (13:49)

• Scientific Colonialism vs. Racist Bias

  • Despite presenting itself as rational and scientific, the ICI’s policies reinforced Eurocentric and racist structures, as illustrated in colonial agricultural reforms that exacerbated coercion and exploitation.
  • Quote:
    • “They pretend to abolish the old colonial slave based system...but what they actually do…turns out to be a coercive system not so far away from what happened on slave plantations.” (19:06)

4. Indirect Rule, Functional Governance, and Internationalization

• Trans-Imperial Circulation of Ideas

  • Notions like indirect rule and dual mandate, often attributed to individuals like Frederick Lugard, were incubated in ICI networks and adopted by various empires.
  • ICI members shaped concepts of ‘functional governance’—governing without traditional state structures—that later influenced the League of Nations and UN agencies.
  • Quote:
    • “The idea of functional governance, international governance emerges already in the 1890s and is very important for the ICI to appear as a sort of independent actor…” (22:36)

• Postwar Rebranding

  • After WWII, the ICI rebranded as the International Institute of Differing Civilizations, adopting new rhetoric to align with changing global norms while continuing old patterns.
  • Quote:
    • “They pretend to accept differing civilizations…which is obviously not the case.” (24:37)

5. Collaboration with Authoritarianism and Eurafrica

• The 1938 Rome Congress

  • Highlights the compatibility and convergence between liberal, fascist, and other authoritarian colonial actors at the critical Rome meeting, exposing the flexibility and resilience of the colonial project.
  • Quote:
    • “Fascist colonial lobbyists are appropriating the liberal colonialism. But liberals are there as well and they don't protest…Malinowski…sends his greetings to the congress.” (29:11)

• The ‘Eurafrica’ Project and Colonial Continuities

  • The Euro-African concept survived the fall of formal empires, shaping post-war “development” schemes and European integration.
  • Quote (host quoting the book):
    • “Colonialism remained Europe's lowest common denominator.” (32:08)

• Token Inclusion of African Leaders

  • After 1945, the ICI admitted African and Asian representatives (e.g., Léopold Sédar Senghor), but the institution remained steeped in colonial hierarchies under new terms.
  • Quote:
    • “The space they imagining in which these hierarchies and inequalities can live on is the Euro Africa.” (35:44)

6. Repackaging Colonialism: ‘Development’ and ‘Anti-Racism’

• Segregation via ‘Differing Civilizations’

  • Post-war, the ICI’s invocation of cultural relativism served to perpetuate segregation within supposedly reformed Euro-African unions, denying full citizenship and equality to Africans.
  • Quote:
    • “This idea…helped them to legitimize the idea that they had to be kept segregated within this Euro African Union.” (39:03)

• Twisting ‘Anti-Racism’

  • The ICI weaponized accusations of racism against emerging African governments, casting post-colonial attempts at autonomy or expulsion of Europeans as “racist.”
  • Quote:
    • “They claim to be anti racist, not in the sense we would use it today…but using the idea of racism to show how the newly independent states…were racist against the former colonizers.” (38:52)

• The Double-Speak of Colonial Power

  • Wagner and the host reflect on the persistent power of “progressive” vocabulary to serve regressive structures—a theme with unsettling contemporary resonance.
  • Quote (host):
    • “Just to reflect on the kind of double speak of power…that you can take a concept that seems so evidently one of justice, of anti racism, and curdle it…” (42:42)

7. The Argument for Continuity in Colonialism

• Challenging the ‘Reform’ Narrative

  • Wagner insists that the ICI’s core project—portraying colonialism as progressive and benevolent—persisted from its founding through the era of decolonization and development.
  • He critiques narratives that see colonial internationalism as reformable or fundamentally transformed by mid-century.
  • Quote:
    • “My argument…goes a bit against the idea that colonialism is reformable…the ICI basically does the same in the 1890s and in the 1960s.” (45:41)

• Historiographical Position

  • Wagner’s findings contest trends focusing on nuance and fragmentation, reasserting the relevance of Marxist-inspired critiques of imperial continuity.
  • Quote (host):
    • “That is the job of historians…to argue either for rupture or for continuity. So we will put you firmly in the continuity camp.” (51:06)

8. Current and Future Research

• New Project on Migration and Repatriation
  • Wagner is investigating international organizations’ roles in shaping postwar migration and involuntary repatriation—tracing continuities in “progressive” humanitarian practices with problematic legacies.
  • Quote:
    • “I'm working on the emergence of the idea of repatriation…which turns out to be a very problematic role when it comes to returning migrants…” (51:37)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the difficulty of researching the ICI:
  “I needed to go to some 25 different archives…to put together the full picture.” (05:53)
• On the ICI as Europe’s ‘lowest common denominator’:
  “Colonialism remained Europe's lowest common denominator.” (32:08; quoted by host)
• On the persistence of colonial patterns under new names:
  “The Institute is still an institution that promotes these kind of colonial hierarchies without calling them colonial hierarchies.” (35:11)
• On ‘progressive’ colonialism as a persistent myth:
  “The ICI definitively shows that there was not much change…also because it portrayed colonialism from the beginning as a progressive thing.” (49:02)
• On functional governance and indirect rule:
  “You do not necessarily need a state or a nation state to govern within our empire or also on the international…level.” (21:46)
• On the malleability of anti-racism as a political tool:
  “They claim to be anti racist…[but] used [the concept] to justify the perpetuated colonial structures.” (36:53)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction and guest background: 00:05–03:40
• Why the ICI is overlooked: 03:42–06:48
• Founding of the ICI: 06:48–08:52
• Meaning of ‘International’ in ICI: 08:52–11:32
• Professionalization and ‘scientific’ colonialism: 11:32–17:47
• ICI, indirect rule, and functional governance: 20:15–26:12
• ICI and fascist colonialism (Rome, 1938): 27:46–32:08
• Eurafrica, postwar transformations, and token inclusion: 32:08–36:04
• Segregation/differing civilizations and anti-racism rhetoric: 36:04–42:42
• Argument for continuity in colonialism: 45:13–51:06
• Wagner’s current research: 51:19–53:12
• Closing reflections: 53:12–54:14

Conclusion

This episode offers a rich exploration of Wagner’s research into the ICI, revealing how the organization underpinned and rebranded colonial governance for nearly a century. The conversation exposes how narratives of progressivism and internationalism concealed ongoing systems of domination, providing vital context for understanding both the history of empire and its afterlives in present-day international affairs. Wagner’s scholarship underscores the importance of critically interrogating both rupture and continuity in imperial histories.