Flower Darby (2:22)

Thank you so much, Stephen. It's truly my honor to be here with you today.

Stephen Pimpair (2:25)

So I wonder if you might kick us off by telling folks just a little bit about who you are and what you do and what it is that brought you to this particular book project.

Flower Darby (2:34)

Sure. So I'm currently at the University of Missouri as an associate director in the Teaching for Learning Center. I have been teaching at universities and community colleges for 30 years in a range of disciplines ranging from psychology to jazz dance. And several Years ago, about 2008, I decided to try online teaching. I thought maybe this was the direction that higher ed might be going. I found that I liked it more than I thought I would. As a dance teacher, I love to be in a physical space and bring in the fizz and the buzz and the energy and the jazz hands. Online, I thought, might not really be exactly what I would enjoy, but I was surprised. And so I've been working on improving my own online teaching. Fostering rich connections with and among students in online class is because we know they often feel disconnected. They feel isolated and lonely. And then more recently, in the last several years, I've just had the opportunity to write and speak more about this. And the reason I wrote this book is I just think we're still not quite getting it right. I think there's more that we can do. And I even hesitate to say it that way because I don't want this to come across as a big old overwhelming to do list for instructors who teach online. What I think is that when we learn to truly love teaching online, see the value, we can find more fulfillment. It can be more rewarding for us. And that's why I wrote this book.

Stephen Pimpair (3:56)

So before we get your thoughts about how we go about doing that, I wonder for folks who may not be familiar with the terminology, talk to us about what the difference is between asynchronous courses and synchronous courses, and what we know in general about each of those approaches.

Flower Darby (4:13)

Yeah, great question. An important distinction. As the subtitle indicates, I did decide deliberately to focus only on asynchronous online classes. This is the traditional model that has been around since the 90s, and there are no real time interactions between faculty and students. Sometimes students have to get together to do group work, but as a rule, the entire class can be completed on a student's own schedule. And again, this is this predates the COVID 19 pandemic by decades. But during the COVID 19 pandemic, all of us were thrown into this emergency remote teaching or synchronous teaching where we would meet with our students in zoom, for example. And therefore the definition of online teaching and learning became a little bit blurry. Right. When I talk about online, am I talking about live interactions with students? Am I talking to a whole bunch of little black boxes on a screen? Or am I facilitating learning in those completely asynchronous environments where all interactions are delayed by time? And no, there is no physical proximity as well. So the reason I decided to focus on asynchronous, which is that no real time interactions, is because again, we've been doing this for a long time, there's a lot of research, and this is the mode, this is the format that students want and need. Students who are busy and leading complicated lives and wanting to earn that credential. This is the most in demand modality. And so synchronous has expanded since the COVID 19 pandemic. I know a lot of programs are offering more in that mode and that's great because it does offer affordances where you can have some real time feedback. Students can ask questions, they can talk with each other. But asynchronous really does offer the most flexibility for the most people, and that is why I'm focused on that mode.

Stephen Pimpair (5:57)

And I can say that as someone who is the director of an asynchronous online program, I can attest to that. Right. We've got students literally who would be unable to be, in my case, getting a graduate degree were it not for the flexibility that that kind of structure offers. They've often full time jobs, they've got caregiving responsibilities. Not unusual to be caring for children and for parents simultaneously. To have to be in a particular place at a particular time is literally impossible for many of them. Not to mention the very rural students who may be two hours away from their local college or university and they just don't have four hours plus class time in order to move back and forth. So really does make education available to people for whom it otherwise would not be available. That said, and you made reference to this earlier, students have complaints. So before we talk about about what we can do to make the experience better, both for students and for instructors, talk a little bit about what you understand to be the main complaints and the main problems of this approach for a lot of students.

Flower Darby (7:09)

Yes, happy to do so. But before I do so, I would love to just speak to your point about students for whom pursuing that next credential, a graduate degree, for example, wouldn't be possible. Little known fact about me, I'm a PhD student myself as well right now, and I'M in an asynchronous online program and I would not be able to pursue this long sought after, long dreamed of milestone, personal professional milestone, if it weren't for the online asynchronous. So I'm right there with your students and with our students who need this moat. So here's what we know though. We know and again, there's decades of research that show this, that students say that they feel like they have to walk themselves through the class. They feel that their instructor is not present, is not responsive. Oftentimes our students feel like we're not really looking at their work and providing meaningful feedback. And I know that this is not any online instructor's intention, but I do believe there is a pretty strong myth and I believe it has to do with how online courses are developed. Right. Again, excluding or setting aside the experience that we had in COVID 19, a traditional asynchronous online class requires months in the best case scenario of detailed building and scripting and recording or writing. Right. There's a lot of work that goes into a build of an online class. And I know again from research and lots of conversations with online instructors, many times it can feel like you did the work and now we just set the class and it just runs itself. And unfortunately, that is exactly what leads to the student feeling of being isolated, of having to teach themselves the material. So that's the student perspective, is that they just feel a little unsupported, a little on their own.

Stephen Pimpair (8:55)

So let's now talk about what it is that we can do to improve that experience for everyone involved. And the book is organized in five main chapters. Setting up for Success, Creating the Atmosphere, Connecting with Students, Eliciting Productive Emotions, and Finishing Strong. Why don't we take those in turn and have you talk a little bit about strategies contained within each of those categories. So how does one set a course up for success?

Flower Darby (9:24)

Yeah, so this is chapter one of the book. And I admit pretty openly that I don't love this part. And it is in fact the kind of stuff that I was just talking about a minute ago. Building things. Things.

Stephen Pimpair (9:35)

It's so tedious.

Flower Darby (9:37)

It, it is. And I, I present a road trip analogy, right? Like sometimes if you're planning that two week family vacation to a fabulous destination, you have to go get the wheels aligned and the oil changed. Right. And for me that's, that's not my funnest part of the journey. But we know that it sets everybody up for success on that road trip. So similar analogy. And, and this Won't be new to people who have been developing, designing, and teaching online classes, but just a good reminder that providing an organized course experience with intuitive navigation, making sure our materials are accessible, links are up to date, instructions are clear, all of that sort of, you know, best practice for quality online courses. It really is important to help our students feel supported and to ease our own pain. Basically, when we're teaching a class, if I've had the experience where unbeknownst to me, some link was out of date or some instructions weren't clear, and then we get lots of emails from understandably confused students. So the more that we do before day one to make sure everything is ship shape and in order, I think the better the experience will be for our students and ourselves as well.

Stephen Pimpair (10:46)

And I can say, speaking of Canvas, the system that I use, there's literally a button you click and it will tell you whether you've got any dead links in there. Right. So it's not as if you have to move through every page of the course and check each of those links manually. I can also say that to your point about sort of keeping things updated, a complaint that I have heard for years from students across a number of different programs is when they see, say, recordings by faculty members that clearly have not been updated in years, and they just feel as if you don't care about me. You're not putting in the work, you're not bothering to make this current. And as we all know, and as you talk about in the book, that kind of emotional reaction has really profound effects on our ability to learn. Right. That gets in the way of good learning and build the kinds of relationships that, that facilitate that. So in that vein, talk to us about after we have done all of that work and we've checked the tires and rotated them and made sure the tank is full. How do we create an atmosphere to, as you say, establish and sustain an environment of warmth, energy, and support? And I so love that combination. How do we do that?

Flower Darby (12:03)

Thank you. Well, I'm drawing on the principles from emotion science, which is from neuroscience. Right. It's a more recent body of literature, but really what it relies on is the idea that there is this phenomenon called emotional contagion, and it will resonate as soon as I speak it out loud to anybody. Right. And the idea is that we impact and we are impacted by the emotions of people that we're around. And this happens online. All you have to do is look at social media to see how tempers can flare or how joy can spread. And so what I do is I bring that, that application of emotional contagion into our ugly online spaces. I teach in canvas too, and I hate it. It's so ugly. I was thinking this morning it reminds me of like a Soviet block of apartment buildings. It's just ugly and, and just utilitarian. Right. And there's more that these companies could do. But since they haven't done that yet, and I'm making that call, we can bring our own positive energy, our optimism, our caring about our students. You made a really important point. Students feel neglected. It makes them feel like we don't care about them. That absolutely dampens their motivation and engagement. So when we are, and I'll give you one simple example, when I used to, again, when I started teaching online, I used to write announcements. Written announcements, not even recorded, that were very robotic. Don't forget, you have a quiz on Tuesday. What I learned is that, you know, I realized that's not the way I speak to my in person students. So I began to write with just a little bit more of my personality and deliberate effort to infuse some warmth and encouragement in the words that I use. Now I might write something that says, hey, look how far you've come. So you know already this semester you're doing great. As a reminder, there's a quiz and if you need any support. Right. Just write like I talk with a deliberate intention to be encouraging and positive and optimistic. That goes a long way to creating that kind of a warm environment in what I think are ugly, cold spaces.

Stephen Pimpair (13:59)

That leads us into talking about chapter three, connecting with students. Right. So what else can we do to build that kind of rapport and connection with our students and sustain it over the life of a course?

Flower Darby (14:11)

Yeah. You know, the key here is that connections, especially spontaneous social connections, can happen instantly and effortlessly in in person classes. Now, I am going to acknowledge that sometimes in person classes leave a lot to be desired as well. Sometimes a large lecture, for example. But still it is possible for a student to turn to a neighbor and say, hey, do you happen to have an extra piece of paper? And that that what we found during the pandemic, there was research that showed that even those quick little sparks do a lot to support our well being and it doesn't happen as easily in asynchronous classes. So what I argue is that again, we can be deliberate and intentional to structure experiences that build rapport, build trust and foster some supportive social connections. And, and there's a research article that I talk about in the book and it's basically they did a minimum rapport building experiment. What is the least that an online instructor can do within the first module? You know, the welcome getting to know you orientation. What's the bare minimum that we can do that will have an impact on student persistence and engagement? And and I like that model because I'm all about small teaching. Right? Little things that we can do that make a difference. And so it's things like again, providing a warm welcome to the class, even if it's written or recorded, is even better. A quick little video, a short here's how to get started. Things that aren't necessarily new to a lot of folks, but again, a reminder and especially an encouragement to sustain those structured social interactions throughout the course. A lot of times we have that introduction post at the beginning. What else can we do from week to week to help continue to build those trust filled rapport, you know, filled relationships? That's what Chapter three is all about.

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Stephen Pimpair (16:55)

So we've done that work, right? We've set ourselves up for success. We've worked hard to create this asmosphere to build that trust. Worked on finding ways to connect with students and show that we are present, that we care about their learning, that we're available to offer supports. What then can we do to turn that into fostering those kinds of productive emotions that we have talked about that facilitate good, deep learning. How, what are we looking to achieve there and how can we go about doing that?

Flower Darby (17:28)

Yeah. So again, and I do want to give credit to the person who really introduced me to this whole body of work and the potential that it has for college teaching, and that is Sarah Rose Kavanaugh, whose 2016 book the Spark of Learning, Energizing the College Classroom with the Science of Emotion. It really, it just energized me and I thought, man, if we could bring the signs of emotion to our online classes, we could do so much. So really, that's the foundation that I started from with much of this book. For example, making discussion prompts interesting, maybe even fun. Right. I do wonder, as many of us do in this AI age, whether discussion prompts still have a, you know, discussion board, still have a place. But I think they can absolutely. When we are mindful of asking interesting questions, asking debatable questions, maybe having some fun with what we're asking students to do. There is again, a rich body of literature that shows that when we're enjoying ourselves, we think, learn and work better, more effectively. So why not bring some fun, some enjoyment, some curiosity into the things we ask students to do in our online classes?

Stephen Pimpair (18:36)

I teach a lot of public policy courses and one of the things that I do is often in those posts will send students out and we'll often sort of remind my colleagues, it's like the entire Internet is right there available for you to use. Right. So when I am teaching an intro policy course and a module on Social Security and how it functions, I will send them out to the link to the Social Security Administration, ask them to set up their own Social Security account, go in, log in, look at their own work history and their own projected benefits, amounts, and then to the extent that they're comfortable, come back and share what they discover with the group. And activities like that really can, because it really matters to them. Right. And they are thinking about this material in a very different way than if they're just reading a dry analysis from the Social Security Administration about long term financing of the program, which is important, but it also matters to each of us individually. And I find that if we can create spaces where they're connecting the learning to their own lives, to their own families, to their own communities. I'm not telling you anything you don't know, Right. It registers in such a different way. And they are so much more willing to be engaged and to engage in meaningful conversations with their colleagues. Rather than that just perfunctory, okay, I'm going to give you two sentences in response to the reading, and you're making me respond to two other posts. So I'm going to do that. And they're going to be cursory and perfunctory, and I'm just going to get them over with and. Right. That's not good for anybody.

Flower Darby (20:16)

Right. Not for. To your point, it's not good for us. I don't want to read all those good theories.

Stephen Pimpair (20:20)

Right. I want you to read that. Yeah.

Flower Darby (20:22)

Your example is perfect because again, it highlights even the emotional resonance of relevant and meaningful activities that matter to our students. That when we are, again, intentional to really be looking for those kinds of experiences. Yeah. Yes. Students are much more engaged, they're much more interested, and that benefits everybody in the class. Experience. Great, great practice. I love that.

Stephen Pimpair (20:47)

Okay, so we've done all of this work. We've set up the course for success. We've established this rapport with students. We've got them engaged and attentive. The final chapter is called Finish Strong. Right. How should we be thinking about not letting that all drop away as we work our way? Often everybody is exhausted by the end of the semester, Students and instructors alike. Right. What should we be paying attention to in order to sort of complete that circle and ensure that students and instructors alike walk away with feeling as if this was a worthwhile experience for them?

Flower Darby (21:24)

Yeah, absolutely. And specifically, I'm thinking hard about how persistence is worse in asynchronous online classes. Again, decades of research show that students do not complete online classes at a rate that is higher than in person. And this is directly related to the kind of students who choose this mode. Right. Life is complicated, so we don't take it personally if some students are not able to complete their class. That. But what we can do, and this is what I argue in that chapter, is we can set things up a little bit. Back to chapter one. Right. Full circle. We can set things up for success to foster intrinsic motivation so that students can engage, persist, complete the class. And, you know, just one of the examples I talk about is designing for, in accordance with motivation theories like self determination theory. And much of what we talked about today lines up with this approach. Right. And it says that when students feel that they are connected with other people who care about them. So all that relationship building, when they feel competent, that they can do the task in front of them. So when we carefully scaffold activities that prepare them to be successful, and when they feel that they have some agency or autonomy. And I love Your example of going to log into Social Security because hey, this is me, I can choose how much time I'm going to click around in there and learn. Start the plan. So chapter five is kind of about being thoughtful about what motivates people, what will help keep our students logging in even when life gets complicated, in order to help all of us cross the finish line and just appreciate that experience of completion.

Stephen Pimpair (22:59)

So I am fortunate, very fortunate, given the state of higher education at the moment and that this is my full time job. An awful lot of folks who are teaching these courses, it is not their full time job or they are teaching a ridiculous number of courses across multiple campuses of them online, some of them in person, struggling very hard just to cobble together a learning and a living. And as you well know, that that describes more and more higher education instructors. What do you say to them? Right? Because a lot of what we are talking about is right. You need to be more intentional, you need to be paying more attention, you need to be more thoughtful to one degree or another. That does in fact require a bit more by way of time. So how do you make that sale? How do you convince folks that it's worth them doing that?

Flower Darby (23:49)

Yeah, absolutely. And I will first of all appeal to credibility because I have always, for 30 years, except one, for 29 years I have been adjunct myself. Everything that I have taught has been part time. But here's the argument, except one year when I managed to get a one year contract. And then I thought, I like the freedom of teaching part time. Now again, I recognize that that is a fortunate situation that not everybody can can have. But to answer your question, here's what I know for a fact based on the research and anecdotal conversations. As you know, there are stories in the book about people who love online teaching. And here's what they all tell me. Yes, it takes a little bit more time, but that is how we boost our own instructor well being that we find our teaching cup filled again when we pour out that energy to our students and the time now within boundaries, right? That's part of chapter one. We set and communicate our boundaries. But the when we give a little bit more to our students, they respond with so much that gratitude and energy and enjoyment, it fills us up, recharges our teaching battery. And that's the argument that I make that actually the investment of time will yield returns of our own enjoyment and well being. And I think at higher ed we need as much of that as we could find right now.

Stephen Pimpair (25:01)

Something I don't think we've somehow touched upon. But you mentioned a number of different times in the book. There is one single thing, according to the research that instructors can do that will have the greatest impact on students feeling attended to. And that is responding to emails.

Flower Darby (25:19)

Yes.

Stephen Pimpair (25:20)

Which I know this is true for me and a lot of my colleagues as well. Right. It's like, oh, for heaven's sake, respond to the darn email. Right.

Flower Darby (25:27)

Again, I really work hard not to blame or shame. I do feel that this.

Stephen Pimpair (25:32)

Lives are complicated. People are busy.

Flower Darby (25:34)

Instructors too. Right. But. But I do think that when we become aware of the impact that that has on student motivation and engagement, it actually helps us. It helps me to log in maybe just a little bit after dinner just to kind of clear the decks on email. And again, I want to be careful not to say that we are 247 chatbots or that we should write. But helping our students feel seen and valued can absolutely be something as simple as a reply to an email. For sure.

Stephen Pimpair (26:00)

And as you already touched upon. Right. Sort of that setting boundaries, communicate clearly to students. Right. This is when I am available. Here's when I will be responding to emails. Here's when you should expect a response from me. And maybe some say something. Should this be true? That to the extent that I'm available, I will try to respond more quickly than that.

Flower Darby (26:19)

Exactly.

Stephen Pimpair (26:19)

And again, just sort of something as

Flower Darby (26:21)

simple as that level of transparent communication really helps people recognize that there's a person on the other side who cares about them and wants to support them. And I would just add. And you've had this experience too, I'm sure that when life happens to us. Right. Or maybe it's a planned conference or maybe it's something unexpected. Just let our students know that we'll be a little bit less available for X amount of time and when we come back. Right. That kind of communication, I think, is just a step that some of us haven't really thought about the impact that it makes on our students.

Stephen Pimpair (26:49)

So, flowers, we work our way toward concluding the conversation. Anything else you want to leave folks with or maybe a story or an anecdote that you want to share? What would you like folks to walk away from this conversation with as they think about their own teaching?

Flower Darby (27:03)

You know, I will. I'll share a story. Well, two things. First of all, I would like to make it very clear that my goal is not to overwhelm busy instructors. It is to inspire us all that when we seek to find our own enjoyment in supporting students that we are teaching, we Ourselves are going to feel better as well. And a quick little sort of a turning point story that I opened the book with is from a graduate student of mine in a master's class who was struggling with one particular project. This was her last cla, not her last, the second to last class before she was going to finish that master's, she wanted the master's, as everybody does frequently for career advancement, get a better job, more money to support her family. And she reached out, she would stymied. She said, I don't know what to do. All I know to do is to reach out. And so I replied to her and I said, I think we can figure something out. An extension, right? But I said, let's have a quick phone call. And I told her really specifically on that call, look, sometimes I've offered extensions and then students don't take me up on it. And I wanted to connect with you this way just to kind of talk through what was really possible, what's going on, make a real feasible plan. And she succeeded. She finished the class, she earned an A and she got a better paying job. And she emailed me after the class was over and she wrote the most poignant words about how I was the only instructor she'd ever had who took the time to talk with her, hear her voice, hear what she was going through. And that experience really sort of galvanized me to again, kind of try to maintain that in my own teaching. But to share this approach with others, that's a major sort of experience that resulted in this new book.

Stephen Pimpair (28:39)

You're listening to New Books Network and we've been speaking with Flower Darby about her new book, the Joyful Online Finding Our Fizz in Asynchronous Classes from the University of Oklahoma Press. Flowers, thank you so much for the conversation today. Much appreciated, Stephen.

Flower Darby (28:55)

It's been my absolute delight. Thank you.

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