Episode Summary:

Podcast: New Books Network
Title: George Papaconstantinou and Jean Pisani-Ferry, New World New Rules: Global Cooperation in a World of Geopolitical Rivalries
Host: Leo Bader (New Books)
Guest: George Papaconstantinou
Date: September 17, 2025

Overview

This episode features a deeply insightful conversation with George Papaconstantinou, former Greek finance minister and co-author (with Jean Pisani-Ferry) of New World, New Rules. The discussion critically examines the urgent and growing need for global collective action—on issues ranging from climate change to internet governance—in an era marked by geopolitical fragmentation and rivalry. Drawing from economics, law, and political science, Papaconstantinou illuminates why the multilateral post-WWII order is eroding, the limitations of current international institutions, and how the world—particularly Europe—might still salvage cooperation through pragmatic, club-like approaches.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Diagnosing the Global Cooperation Crisis

[02:23]

• The authors identify a “fundamental mismatch” between the need for global collective action and a declining willingness of states to cooperate.

  “We cannot solve issues that range from climate action … to dealing with data governance and Internet governance … all the way to tax coordination without mechanisms for cooperation. So collective action is lacking.”
  — George Papaconstantinou, [02:23]

2. The Need for an Integrated, Interdisciplinary Approach

[04:07]

• Papaconstantinou argues that economic, legal, and political lenses alone are insufficient for understanding or solving these challenges.
  • Economists analyze incentives/disincentives; legal scholars highlight the importance of norms and formal/informal mechanisms; political scientists foreground power relations.
  • A “much more practical approach” is needed—crossing disciplinary boundaries and resisting abstract, theoretical silos.

  “You need a much more granular, practical approach that is not kind of hamstrung by particular starting points that relate to disciplines and that addresses the real problems.”
  — George Papaconstantinou, [04:07]

3. The Fraying Architecture of Postwar Globalization

[06:02]

• The economic order since WWII brought growth, rising incomes, and poverty reduction but also created winners and losers, driving backlashes like the retreat to protectionism.
• The rise of emerging powers (China, India, Brazil) shifts the geopolitical balance and calls into question systems/dominance built by and for the West.

  “It is not a terrible surprise that other countries come and question some of these norms, and ... their role in it.”
  — George Papaconstantinou, [07:44]

• New global challenges—climate, health, digital—never fit into post-war institutions.

4. Key Turning Point: The US as Both Architect and Challenger

[09:24, 22:37]

• The definitive shift is marked by the Trump administration’s distancing from multilateralism, but dissatisfaction predates Trump (e.g., US critiques of WTO).
• US now actively challenges the system it built, pulling out of WHO, WTO, Paris Agreement, etc., and prioritizing a transactional “America First” agenda.

  “The US has been the architect of the post World War II multilateral order … But now it is no longer a guarantor. Now it is a challenger to the system.”
  — George Papaconstantinou, [22:37]

• This leaves the global order at a pivotal moment, with much of the world needing to respond and adapt.

5. Categories of Policy Challenges

[12:19]

• The book categorizes global cooperation needs into three:
  1. Global Public Goods: Climate, health, digital/data governance.
  2. Traditional Economic Interdependence: Trade, finance, IMF, WTO.
  3. “Behind the Border” Issues: Taxation, banking, competition—matters traditionally seen as sovereign but now interlinked globally.

6. Why Cooperate on “National” Issues?

[16:57]

• Global spillovers make issues like banking regulation and tax coordination inherently international, despite sovereignty instincts.
  • Lax regulation in one jurisdiction can trigger worldwide financial crises.
  • Tax evasion (by individuals and especially corporations) necessitated global action—some progress made (e.g., ending bank secrecy, G20 action post-crisis), but large-scale multinational corporate tax regulation remains elusive.

7. Dilemma of Differing Value Systems

[21:46, 22:37]

• Western norms no longer define universal values; the rise of China, India, etc., entrenches pluralism.

  “We can forget about the universalist dream for some time now. … The idea … of everyone converging to some Western liberal values … has died for good.”
  — George Papaconstantinou, [22:37]

• The US withdrawal further complicates compromise, making club-based, issue-by-issue coalitions (“coalitions of the willing”) necessary—especially in climate, where the rest of the world (Europe, China, others) could lead even if the US abstains.

8. Europe’s Unique Role and the Concept of ‘Strategic Autonomy’

[30:17]

• Europe is portrayed as the last major actor “that actually continues to believe in the rules of a global world order”—and not out of idealism, but necessity.
  • Must balance simplification, rationalization, and regulatory autonomy while avoiding both American and Chinese dominance.
  • Strategic autonomy means negotiating power, upholding values (e.g., privacy, tech regulation), and building internal capacities (e.g., capital markets for AI and tech innovation).

9. Reforming International Institutions—Second-Best Pragmatism

[35:05]

• Existing bodies (WTO, IMF, World Bank) should be improved through “second best” solutions—working within existing principles as much as possible, while forming “club-like” alternatives where needed.
• To sustain legitimacy, Europe (and by extension, the West) must give rising powers a greater voice—e.g., adjusting IMF voting shares so that India (with a much larger population than Italy) has appropriate sway.

  “You give them a share of running these organizations and you give up some of the spots that you’ve got for European [countries]. That’s part of how you have to do it.”
  — George Papaconstantinou, [37:47]

10. Principles for Navigating the New Disorder

[38:50]

• The book ends with 10 practical rules for advancing global cooperation:
  • Look for “second-best” solutions—pragmatism over perfection.
  • Engage private sector and epistemic (expert) communities, but be ready to confront interests when they diverge from the public good.
  • Use civil society and informal networks where formal institutions falter.
  • Accept the enduring challenge posed by nationalism and nativism.
  • Political courage is needed to explain and sell collective sacrifices for the greater good.

  “We are seeing a return to nativism, we’re seeing a return to nationalism. Even within Europe, it is often very hard for countries to share and to understand that the collective good implies compromises and that you have to sell this to your citizens.”
  — George Papaconstantinou, [39:50]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Shift in the US Role:

  “The US has been the main guarantor of that system... But now it is no longer a guarantor. Now it is a challenger... officially saying that the world governance system is an instrument that works against the US.”
  — George Papaconstantinou, [22:37]

• On European Strategic Dilemma:

  "How do you find this space ... to dictate your own norms ... without completely alienating partners? It's a mix of principles and practicality of negotiation and values, hopefully without compromising the basic issues around which we have built Western democracies."
  — George Papaconstantinou, [31:55]

• On International Institutions and Sharing Power:

  “You give them a share of running these organizations and you give up some of the spots that you’ve got for European [countries]. That’s part of how you have to do it.”
  — George Papaconstantinou, [37:47]

• On Practical Optimism vs. Realism:

  “We are perhaps at the worst point because of the tariffs and because of the violence with which the new US Administration has attacked all of these institutions. I would like to think that this is going to start ebbing a little bit … but we can’t stay still and just wait.”
  — George Papaconstantinou, [39:55]

Key Timestamps

• 02:23 – Diagnosing the “fundamental mismatch” in global governance
• 04:07 – The necessity of interdisciplinary analysis
• 09:24 – The turning point: Trump & US reorientation
• 12:19 – Policy challenge typology: public goods, interdependence, “behind the border”
• 16:57 – The rationale for international banking/taxation cooperation
• 21:46 – Emergence of rival value systems and end of Western universalism
• 22:37 – US as a challenger to the post-war order
• 30:59 – Europe’s strategic “third way” and autonomy debate
• 35:05 – Second-best institutional solutions; sharing global governance
• 38:50 – Ten principles for “second-best” collective action and realistic optimism
• 42:33 – The second Trump administration as a catalyst for European and global self-assertion

Final Takeaways

Papaconstantinou's conversation provides a grounded but urgent call for pragmatic, flexible, and inclusive forms of global cooperation. As much as the hope for a seamless multilateral order has faded, the stakes—for climate, security, prosperity, and justice—demand creative alliances and a willingness, especially from Europe, to both lead and adapt. The episode makes clear that the incremental, second-best, and even informal approaches may be the only way forward in a deeply fractured world.