Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network – African American Studies

Host: Omari Averett Phillips
Guest: Dr. Gerald F. Goodwin, author of Race in the Crucible of War: African American Servicemen and the War in Vietnam (U Massachusetts Press, 2023)
Date: January 19, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Omari Averett Phillips interviews Dr. Gerald F. Goodwin about his groundbreaking work exploring the experience of African American servicemen in the Vietnam War. Through personal stories, oral histories, and scholarly analysis, Goodwin delves into how African American soldiers navigated military service during a pivotal moment in US civil rights history—and the profound impact of military desegregation, racism, and war on their lives. The conversation also addresses the enduring legacies of these experiences and the contemporary relevance of this history.

Dr. Goodwin’s Background and Motivations

Timestamps: 01:32–08:54

• Goodwin grew up in Ottawa, Canada, as the son of American immigrants—a history professor father from the South and a mother from the Midwest.
• Both grandfathers were WWII veterans, influencing an early interest in military and social history.
• Childhood exposure to discussions about segregation, war, and difference helped foster empathy and curiosity about issues of race and inequality.
• Developed a specific interest in African American experiences in Vietnam after reading Wallace Terry’s Bloods and noting the lack of historical scholarship on the topic.
• Academic journey: Undergraduate at Carleton University, MA at University of Kentucky (thesis on black Vietnam vets), PhD from Ohio University; contributed work to outlets including World History Connected and the New York Times, leading to involvement in an NPR documentary.
• Currently teaches in Syracuse, NY; active in refugee advocacy and community engagement.

Quote:
"I grew up in a family where history was discussed, where politics were discussed pretty freely and openly... I don't think I could work on something if I didn't care about it with that kind of intention." —[05:15]

Key Themes and Discussion Points

The Vietnam War and African American Military History

Timestamps: 09:05–12:11

• Vietnam was the first major US conflict fought from start to finish by fully desegregated units due to Truman’s Executive Order 9981 in 1948, though actual integration was gradual.
• Occurred alongside major civil rights milestones (Civil Rights Act 1964, Voting Rights Act 1965), creating a unique overlap of military and social transformation.
• African Americans comprised a significant portion of US forces—roughly 300,000 of 2.5 million, raising new questions:
  “In past conflicts, the trend was African Americans fighting to fight… Vietnam is much different in that way because now you're not having to fight to fight. In fact… are we fighting too much? Are we being forced into combat service at disproportionate numbers?” —[11:29]

Methodology and Oral Histories

Timestamps: 12:11–22:13

• Combined oral histories with veterans (primarily African American, but also white, doctors, lawyers, and journalists) with archival research, newspapers, diaries, magazines, and military records.
• The process required building trust within tight-knit vet networks; most fruitful method was snowball-sampling—one connection leads to others.
• Notable stories:
  • Wes Gary, a pioneering black chaplain, who became a key connector for interviews.
  • George Brummell, blinded Vietnam veteran, who advocated with vigor for Goodwin’s work and ensured others participated.
  • Moving cross-racial friendships built in battle, e.g., Thomas Brannan (black soldier) and Tom Rogan (white soldier) whose lives remained intertwined by the legacy of rescue and mutual respect.

Quote:
"When you gain trust in a community, it's a sacred thing... The only method that continually works is to talk to one veteran and ask him to reach out to somebody else." —[15:34]

Memorable Moment:
"You saved my dad's life. Thank you." —A daughter tells Tom Rogan decades after he rescued Thomas Brannan in combat [16:56]

The "Other War" in Vietnam: Racial Conflict

Timestamps: 22:13–23:10

• Apart from combat, a “second war” was fought—internal racial conflict and violence erupted among US troops, especially after 1968, not just in Vietnam but across global US bases (Japan, Germany, Okinawa, the US).
• Unspoken and underreported, this racial strife shaped the daily reality for many.

US Race Relations at the War’s Outset

Timestamps: 23:10–26:10

• Passage of landmark civil rights laws did not end systemic racism; white support for these movements was tepid at best.
• Despite legislative progress, deep-seated discrimination and reluctance to support Black rights among whites persisted.
• Goodwin challenges romanticized versions of the 1960s:
  “The vast majority of the white people you knew did not support the civil rights movement unless you were in a very select group of people.” —[24:28]

Interracial Dynamics in the Military

Timestamps: 26:10–28:28

• Complexity: Bonds sometimes formed in combat but sharp divisions persisted elsewhere, especially in “rear line” non-combat settings that mirrored the U.S. social order.
• Racial harmony could be superficial; pay disparities and systemic inequities endured beneath the surface.

African American Troops and Vietnamese Civilians

Timestamps: 28:28–33:45

• African Americans often empathized with Vietnamese civilians, seeing parallels in poverty and mistreatment—a distinction from many white troops.
• Some Vietnamese expressed a sense of kinship toward Black soldiers.
• Black veterans noted how anti-Vietnamese racism often mirrored anti-Black racism in the US; they also recognized divisions within Vietnamese society, particularly towards minorities.
• Goodwin supports these findings with polling and multi-decade oral interviews.

Quote:
"They tend to... see themselves in Vietnamese civilians in a lot of ways. They pick up on the poverty... and it reminds them of the way they’re mistreated in the United States." —[29:13]

Hopes Versus Reality: Return to Civilian Life

Timestamps: 33:45–41:37

• Many Black servicemen entered the military for economic opportunity, hoping skills and service would bring benefits after the war.
• The reality was disillusioning: racism persisted, jobs were scarce, GI Bill benefits inadequate—African American veterans faced higher unemployment than both their white veteran peers and Black peers who hadn’t served.
• Veterans organizations often excluded them; broader American society was generally uninterested in their stories or suffering.
• The justice system within and after service disproportionately targeted Black veterans.

Quote:
"The experience... is largely one of struggle and challenge... The jobs that they hope are there for them really aren't." —[39:58]

Reflections on Audience, Purpose, and Legacy

Timestamps: 41:37–47:34

• Book aims for accessibility—written for scholars, students, veterans’ relatives, and general readers alike.
• Goodwin believes “history and education should be for anybody” and is critical of contemporary attempts to censor Black and LGBTQ history.
• The power of first-person testimony: “The accounts of African American veterans speak for themselves.”
• Broader goal: Encourage empathy, recognize the persistence of racism, and foster a sense of connectedness across difference.

Quote:
"I want everyone to read it... just because I think it’s important information, it has nothing to do with me. You can take my name off it." —[43:36]

• The book explicitly links the stories of Black Vietnam veterans to contemporary struggles against racism and the erasure of marginalized histories.

Future Projects and Closing Thoughts

Timestamps: 47:49–51:00

• Goodwin is currently focused on publicizing the book and participating in community engagement.
• Experiences an unexpected impact: families of Black veterans contact Goodwin, saying the book helps them understand their loved ones’ struggles.
• He anticipates further advocacy and education work, drawing connections between history, community, and the present day.

Quote:
"I’m finding... that people whose parents are Vietnam veterans, Black Vietnam veterans, or grandparents have started reaching out to me... I understand something a little bit better." —[48:34]

Select Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On motivation:
  "History is kind of a personal thing. Like, there is a personal connection to it." —Dr. Goodwin [07:40]

• On the uniqueness of Vietnam for Black soldiers:
  “Vietnam is much different... because now you're not having to fight to fight. In fact... are we fighting too much?” —Dr. Goodwin [11:29]

• On methods and barriers in oral history:
  "The only method that continually works is to talk to one veteran and ask him to reach out to somebody else." —Dr. Goodwin [15:34]

• Memorable story from the field:
  “You saved my dad’s life. Thank you.” —A soldier’s daughter to her father’s white comrade [16:56]

• On civil rights support:
  “There was never majority support among whites for the civil rights movement. Never.” —Dr. Goodwin [24:21]

• On interracial friendships in combat:
  “Race relations could be very positive in one avenue and very negative in another avenue. It had to do with place, it sometimes had to do with leadership.” —Dr. Goodwin [27:00]

• On empathy towards Vietnamese people:
  "They sort of see themselves in Vietnamese civilians in a lot of ways... it reminds them of the way that they’re mistreated in the United States." —Dr. Goodwin [29:13]

• On hopes and disillusionment for Black veterans:
  “You still face the beast at home. The beast is racism. It's white, racist. Right. And so that doesn't change.” —Dr. Goodwin [36:44]

• On broader lessons:
  "It is a book that's directed towards empathy. And to think of this as all connected, that you might not be black, you might not be a veteran, you might not know anything about these subjects, but we're all connected in a way." —Dr. Goodwin [46:32]

Conclusion

This episode offers a rich, empathetic examination of African American military service in Vietnam, guided by Dr. Goodwin’s personal and scholarly commitment to amplifying stories long neglected in mainstream history. Through vivid stories, honest appraisal of the period’s complexities, and a focus on the present-day implications, listeners are invited to see both the pain and power in these narratives—and to question how far we have come, and how far is left to go.