Gerta Keller, "The Last Extinction: The Real Science Behind the Death of the Dinosaurs" (Diversion Books, 2025)

Summary

Podcast Summary:

New Books Network — Gerta Keller, "The Last Extinction: The Real Science Behind the Death of the Dinosaurs" (Diversion Books, 2025)
Host: Gregory McNiff
Guest: Dr. Gerta Keller
Date: October 4, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, host Gregory McNiff interviews renowned paleontologist Dr. Gerta Keller about her new book, The Last Extinction: The Real Science Behind the Death of the Dinosaurs. The conversation explores Keller’s groundbreaking research challenging the dominant asteroid impact theory of dinosaur extinction, delves into the scientific “Dinosaur Wars” of the past forty years, and touches on Keller’s personal journey from rural Switzerland to Princeton. The episode concludes with a sobering discussion on the future of scientific integrity and climate change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Gerta Keller’s Personal Journey (05:01–14:30)

• Humble Beginnings: Keller describes her childhood near Liechtenstein and Switzerland, being one of twelve children in a poor family. She was an independent thinker, exploring the mountains alone from a young age.
  “I was number six... I did my own think already from about 2, 3 years old. I seem to have been pretty much on my own.” (05:22)
• Barriers to Education: Societal expectations limited her to factory or farm work, or dressmaking. She saved for a design school in Zurich but the money was used by her mother, pushing Keller to work at Christian Dior in Zurich, barely surviving on her wages (08:31).
• World Traveler: She sought adventures, traveling through conflict zones like Vietnam, Cambodia, and Indonesia. In Sydney, Australia, she survived a gunshot wound during a bank robbery (10:48).
• Academic Path: Arrival in San Francisco and influence from Haight-Ashbury's “flower children” led her to take entrance exams and study at San Francisco State, eventually transferring to Stanford for microfossil research, as dinosaurs were then an unfashionable field (13:00).

Academic Research and Early Challenges (14:30–21:04)

• Pioneering Discovery: On a research vessel off the Japan Trench, Keller made a significant geological discovery about island subduction, facing hostility and even threats from Japanese counterparts who discounted her contribution due to gender bias.
  “They meant to get rid of me. And I...” (15:37)
  “They took all the credit. I never got any credit whatsoever.” (18:06)
• Standing for the Evidence: American colleagues provided some support, and the experience set a precedent for scientific resistance she would later face.

The Dinosaur Wars: Impact Theory vs. Deccan Volcanism

The Rise of the Impact Theory (22:03–29:10)

• Alvarez’s Asteroid Theory: Nobel laureate Luis Alvarez and collaborators dominated scientific discourse after 1980, positing that a giant asteroid caused the K-T (Cretaceous-Paleogene) extinction.
• Scientific Intransigence: Keller recounts attending a small, influential conference at Alvarez’s invite, where her data were dismissed outright —
  “Don’t bother us with your data. We don’t need it and we don’t care about it.” — Luis Alvarez (31:13)
• Pressure to Conform: She recounted advice from paleontologist David Raup:
  “When you are with big people, you should stay quiet, not say anything. You will go far as long as you stay quiet.” (32:43)

Challenging the Consensus (34:44–42:49)

• Problems with Iridium Data: Keller explains that the famous iridium layer (supposed to mark the extinction-causing impact) was repeatedly misinterpreted or even fabricated. Independent analysis by physicists helped disprove its origins as extraterrestrial in core K-T samples.
  “Iridium was never there in prime big deal days.” (37:05)
• Scientific Stonewalling:
  “Impactors, I call them impactors. They simply denied whatever they picked to deny and there was never any real data... they would just create something else.” (41:18)
• Her Approach: Keller employed stratigraphy, precise dating, micropaleontology, and sediment analysis—finding many species were already declining before the alleged impact.

The Deccan Volcanism Alternative (42:49–48:46)

• Deccan Traps: Keller’s research points to immense volcanic eruptions in India’s Deccan Traps as causing prolonged environmental stress leading to extinction.
  “Deccan volcanism in India is absolutely massive... It was the mass extinction right there in front of me and it was the tiniest microfossils you can find, which had already died, except for one species. And that one species is the survivor that is still alive today.” (43:01)
• Hybrid Theories: By the late 2000s, as evidence mounted, some researchers proposed a dual cause (“one-two punch”) — both impact and volcanism — but Keller insists newer data points to volcanism as the main driver.
• Scientific Stubbornness:
  “How can you admit to have been wrong after 40 years when we all knew all along they were wrong?” (48:46)

Breakdown of the Scientific Process (49:43–51:03)

• Collapse of Peer Review: Editors at Science and Nature prioritized the impact story, sometimes publishing flawed or knowingly incorrect work.
  “It was a complete breakdown in the process... NASA wanted the story to be there because they got a lot of money for it.” (50:19)
• Why the Theory Persisted: Combination of scientific authority, institutional inertia, and financial incentive kept the asteroid theory dominant for decades.

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Climate Change, Future Extinctions, and Scientific Warning

The Sixth Extinction (51:03–54:29)

• Urgency: Keller has been warning of an impending sixth mass extinction linked to human activity for over a decade.
  “I now believe that it is already right on board in a sense. The extinction has already happened and it's continuing.” (51:20)
• Driver: She attributes it mainly to climate change from fossil fuel use, suggesting prospects are bleak unless carbon emissions radically decline.
  “It's too far gone but we can survive it if we can stop the fossil fuel production. And that has never happened because we tried to stop it in 2000 and it didn't work.” (54:24)

Reflections on Science and Gender (55:04–58:55)

• Women in Science: Keller is less optimistic about progress; she sees ongoing “hocus pocus” and careerist politics overshadowing true scientific inquiry.
  “What is being called science today does not seem like what I used to think of science. It is always something that is... not the real thing or real science.” (55:59)
• Institutional Barriers: She notes both financial incentives (“money, prestige”) and continuing gender bias inhibit real progress.
• International Collaboration: Despite challenges, Keller has found support, especially among Indian geoscientists receptive to evidence over dogma.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On dismissing inconvenient data:
  “Don’t bother us with your data. We don’t need it and we don’t care about it.”
  — Luis Alvarez at his private conference (31:13)
• On dogmatic consensus:
  “How can you admit to have been wrong after 40 years when we all knew all along they were wrong?” (48:46)
• On the scientific climate:
  “What is being called science today does not seem like what I used to think of science.” (55:59)
• On advice to young women in science:
  “I’m not this confident these days that things will turn out right... somehow it never seems to end up as the real science.” (55:59)

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Important Segments (Timestamps)

• Gerta Keller’s early life and inspiration — 05:01–14:30
• First major discovery and gendered resistance — 14:30–21:04
• Origin of the “Dinosaur Wars” — 22:03–29:10
• Confrontation with Alvarez and the scientific elite — 29:10–34:44
• Disproving the iridium layer, questioning impact theory — 34:44–42:49
• Deccan volcanism as the extinction driver — 42:49–48:46
• Scientific process breakdown (Science/Nature/peer review) — 49:43–51:03
• Warnings about the sixth extinction — 51:03–54:29
• Women in science and the problem of “hocus pocus” research — 55:04–58:55

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Final Thoughts

Dr. Gerta Keller delivers both a personal and scientific testimony on challenging orthodoxy in paleontology and exposes how consensus can be shaped more by power and inertia than by evidence. Her research on Deccan volcanism changes the narrative about dinosaur extinction, urges for vigilance against the repetition of past scientific mistakes, and warns of a rapidly approaching human-driven extinction event. Both her scientific rigor and personal resilience offer a lesson in standing up for data-driven truth, even when it is unpopular or inconvenient.

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Transcript

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[Gerta Keller]

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Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Gregory McNiff]

Welcome to the New Books Network. I'm your host Gregory McNiff, and I'm thrilled to be joined by Gerta Keller, the author of the Last the Real Science behind the Death of the Dinosaurs. The book was published by Diversion books in the US in September of 2025. Gerta Keller is a professor of paleontology and geology in the Department of Geosciences at Princeton University, where she has been a tenured faculty member since 1984. She has placed over 260 scientific publications in international journals and is considered a leading authority on catastrophes, mass extinctions, and the biotic and environmental effects of of impacts and volcanism. She has co authored five academic books, including Cretaceous Tertiary Mass Extinction, Chic Zalub, and I Apologize in advance for My Pronunciation on that and the KTB Mass Extinction in Texas and Micropaleontology and Global Bio Events in Earth's History. She is a frequent lecturer and regularly receives invitations from academic institutions around the world. In recent years, her work has received increased recognition and continues to make waves in the mainstream media, including documentaries and news features, podcast interviews, as well as print and media. For more information about Gerda, including her list of her most recent interviews and publications, please see her Website Gerta Princeton.edu. as I mentioned, she is a tenured professor in the geosciences department at Princeton. And candidly, she is the right person to write this book. Why? I selected this book because, like most people, I have an interest in dinosaurs and I associate their extinction, rightly or wrongly, and it appears to be wrongly, with this asteroid impact theory. However, given Professor Keller or Goethe's credibility here, I thought the book is definitely worth the read. And I started the book with an open mind. And by the time I finished it, I really thought, wow, not only is there very little evidence for this asteroid impact theory, but candidly, it seems like sometimes the scientific process isn't as rational and as thoughtful as you would hope it would be. And that candidly, it's got its own flaws in terms of human influences and human biases. Regardless, the Last Extinction is a wonderful book because it not only delves deeply into paleontology, it and explains how we know, in this case, how the dinosaurs met their demise. She does a wonderful job explaining that, but it's also a great personal book. As you'll hear in this interview, Goethe has really charted her own path and it's been a wonderful path. She's a real intellectual and a really strong personality and just somebody who I'm thrilled to be able to interview today. And with that, hello, Gerta. Thank you for joining me today to discuss your book. Thank you, Goethe, why did you write the Last Extinction and who is the target reader?

[Gerta Keller]

I wrote the Last Extinction because, well, I was getting old enough, so I had to finally do something. The truth is, also I have written many versions of it and my various editors usually didn't like any of them, that it was too scientific or not scientific enough, either way. So I did write it. And the last one, I think, has both part of the stories and part of the science background as well.

[Gregory McNiff]

Yeah, and I definitely want to get to the science background, but as I mentioned in my intro, your biography, your path from just growing up in your homeland and coming to the US is amazing and how far you've come. Could you talk a little bit about your background, both growing up and how you ended up becoming such a scholar in paleontology?

[Gerta Keller]

Well, I'm one of a dozen kids and we grew up at the border of Liechtenstein and Switzerland. This is where my mother was from, and she did not want to leave Liechtenstein, but she moved across the river, the Rhine river, and so she would be happier that way. So we grew up as poor. I don't want to say just purisp is enough because there was usually not enough food to eat or Clothing or anything. I was a strange kid because I was number six. And it was supposed the end of the child having more children at that point. So I became sort of my own thinker. I did my own think already from about 2, 3 years old. I seem to have been pretty much on my own. I would run up and down the mountains, and I mean 2,000 meters up and down by the time I was five years old. And I could do anything as long as I would come home by night. I think the only other thing I can tell you is that basically when you get at that age, basically I got to school as anyone did at that time, when you are seven years old. I was barely seven at that time. I was not allowed to read early, but I sort of did it myself in some ways. And in the first class and the school year had basically four classes and the first four years, and then three years afterwards. And basically I devoured the first library, the whole library in the first year. And I did all my classwork already while one teacher was moving on to the next one. And he would always come back and look, what is she doing? But I had already figured out all the answers.

[Gregory McNiff]

And Goethe. This is still in Switzerland, right before you begin your travels.

[Gerta Keller]

Yeah, this is in Switzerland. Basically, I was allowed to be a farm girl worker, factory worker, or I could become a dressmaker. And that was it. So at age 13, I dropped out and I decided, okay, I will become a fashion designer if I can't be a doctor, as I wanted to be. And so, well, the money was lost. I had all saved it up to go to designing school. And then it didn't work because my mother had used the money. And next was I got a job at Christian Dior, which is Paris fashion design. And in Zurich, the biggest fashion house in Zurich. The problem was, it was so little pay that I couldn't eat more than one soup a day. And consequently, it was not possible to live that way. And so I started my travels. I decided if I can't live, I might as well do whatever anybody else might do. And in my case, it was. I wanted to see the world. And especially see the wars. It was Vietnam, it was Cambodia, Indonesia. There were wars everywhere. And so I traveled and did the worst things you can imagine. And then I came. Well, after that, I was shot. But that was in Sydney, Australia, by some bank robber.

[Gregory McNiff]

That's right. Yeah. You were caught up in the middle of the bank robbery and winded up in a hospital.

[Gerta Keller]

I ended up dead. But I revived. They actually made Me, I came back to live, which is strange, but it's not the first time. And then after that I decided, okay, I'll go further and continue my world travel, basically continue my world travel for the next. I think I had three more years at the time because I had decided I would kill myself because there wasn't really anything I could learn. So then I went to my last trip, was going actually San Francisco. I was never there before and I was just going. My trip, trip would end in Latin America. And then it happens that I met the flower children of Haight Ashbury and it was quite amazing. And they would tell me, so what are you studying? And I said, I don't study anything. I never did really. And then they said, well, so why don't you go to City College and take an exam and then you can go from there. And so that's what I did. So they actually helped me along.

[Gregory McNiff]

Yeah, I think you thanked them in the acknowledgments of your book. And you did very well on the exam. And could you talk about from there to your interest in paleontology, your PhD from Stanford and your career, sort of how you progressed? I mean, it really is impressive.

[Gerta Keller]

Yes. So first it was San Francisco State College needs to be acknowledged there from my point of view, because they actually helped me a lot because they allowed me to do literally anything I wanted to do, including having a whole classroom by myself. And I translated a book for them as well in return, but was great help. And it was the first time that I learned about dinosaurs. I'd never heard about a dinosaur before and I thought that was really cool. And so I was going to continue. When I went to Stanford, I would study dinosaurs, but nobody was interested in dinosaurs at that time. So I went to study microfossils simply because that was the next best thing to the big dinosaurs. They were small and there was climate change you could study.

[Gregory McNiff]

No, that's fascinating. And I want to get in specifically to your research. And I know you opened the book book with being on this research vessel as you're doing research on foraminifera, which I believe you refer to as forams for short throughout the book and a discovery you make on that vessel. And it's a very nice anecdote because it sets the theme for the entire book. You're immediately challenged there. And I'll say for the audience, there's an American and a Japanese research team at. Sounds like the Japanese were. Were not thrilled at all, partly because it counted their thesis and candidly because you were a woman making the discovery. So correct me if I'm wrong there. You did get some support from, I believe, an American colleague who, who.

[Gerta Keller]

He was the CO chief.

[Gregory McNiff]

That's right. That's right. There were two CO chiefs, and I think he kept. It almost sounds like you were, you correct me, the Japanese threats were almost. Almost Mafioso style. At one point, you were looking over your shoulder on this cruise vessel, but every day they.

[Gerta Keller]

They were. They meant to get rid of me. And I.

[Gregory McNiff]

It sets the tone. I want to get into the subject of the book, the Dinosaur wars, but it sets the tone very nicely for the book and the challenges and the individuals that you'll face. But could you just briefly talk about that discovery you made on that cruise vessel? I, I think it was in the Antarctic. I could be wrong, but could you talk about that?

[Gerta Keller]

It was off Japan and the Japan Trench, and it was cold weather and misery for two months, but I loved it anyway. And I did my runs every day. I ran at least an hour up and down because the vessel was moving up and down and you could actually just fall overboard the way it went. But it was good. Except when the Japanese discovered that I had made a discovery that nobody ever had made and that it could not be right. And besides, I was a woman, and women don't know science.

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[Gregory McNiff]

And you were told that explicitly, Right. By one of the Japanese investigators to your faith.

[Gerta Keller]

Every one of them, yes. There was just one who came who said. Who said, I really enjoyed what you did.

[Gregory McNiff]

I'm going to let you finish your story, but it is fascinating because they had no problem using your research just to, you know, basically take credit for it.

[Gerta Keller]

They took all the credit. I never got any credit whatsoever.

[Gregory McNiff]

Could you tell our listeners what your discovery was on that research vessel?

[Gerta Keller]

Discovery was so off the Japan Trench there are some small islands. Well, they were once islands, but you get a subduction zone, an area where the islands are being drawn down into the sea. Into the deep sea. And so instead of being a few meters thick where the island was, it now disappears. And the question then was, okay, I was the one who was to look for where, where did it disappear? What happened to these islands? And I found that they simply are gone. And they actually happened at one time and they were still all there. The whole thing simply went what's called subduction. And so I had found that out. And then I told my co chief, the US co chief who had worked on this material like that, but he never realized just how important it was. His name was Roland Roly von Heune. So he. Well, first of all, the Japanese crew was trying to, to get rid of me absolutely. And it was really life threatening and they were serious. And the last one that came, he said, when I said, I'll show you what the data is. And he said, you don't need to do that. We know it. Yeah.

[Gregory McNiff]

This is exactly why this anecdote that begins the book is so great because it really sets the tone to the entire book. A you being sort of a willing to hold your ground because that's where the evidence leads. And I want to get into the Dinosaur wars in a minute. And then the resistance you face because you're a woman. And then candidly, and this is what shocked me, you quote a famous scientist later on at, I can't remember if it's at Snowbird or Nice. And I'll say it, it's Freeman Dyson who basically says, I I'm more in love with the math and the beauty than the data. And Goethe. This isn't about data. And I have to say that shocked me as someone who was brought up.

[Gerta Keller]

To respect a scientific was a physicist. Andy Maida was the mathematician.

[Gregory McNiff]

Yeah, yeah, it was. That's shocking. But great story. I do now want to move into the crux of your book, which is this Dinosaur Wars. And for our readers it's really a very heated debate on the cause of the dinosaurs extinction. I think most of us are familiar with the popular belief that it was an asteroid or an impact that caused the fifth extinction of the dinosaurs. Goethe is obviously going to present a different thesis and one that I find much more credible. In the interest of full disclosure, I have zero training in paleontology, but she makes a very strong argument. Goethe, could you describe the Dinosaur wars? And candidly, who are the chief players, particularly on the impact theory, the one individual that you really face head on.

[Gerta Keller]

Now I have to ask you, when you're asking about the Dinosaur wars and the impact Theory. So first of all, I called it the Dinosaur wars very early on, simply because that's what it was. I was fighting. I was fighting the wars that actually shouldn't have been existing. And it never ended. It still hasn't ended today.

[Gregory McNiff]

And Goethe, a big part of that is this individual, I believe, Luis Alvarez, who was a physicist, he won the Nobel, he made contributions to the Manhattan Project. Some way or somehow he inserted himself into this debate or caused this debate. Could you talk about his role in promoting the asteroid impact theory at that time?

[Gerta Keller]

I stayed. Alvanesc came into this in 1980, in the summer of 1980. And I thought this like 100 people at the U.S. geological Survey where I worked at the time. It all seemed sort of ridiculous because what did he know? He didn't have a clue. And secondly, how could this happen? We know so much about the geology, we know so much about it, and he simply threw it all out. That was it. And at that point I decided I was going to stop doing the paleontology, dinosaurs and so on. I was going to wait for five years and in five years things would blow over and I could continue with real science. But it didn't work that way. So by the second year I took some other work about these glass varials that actually were unknown at the time. And that's where I found a method to find them. Basically during the time when you are not supposed to have destroying any of the archive cores. But it was a simple way by simply allowing the archive course to shine a bright light on it as you move across the course. And when you shine the bright light, then the glass will kind of appear. And that was it.

[Gregory McNiff]

And Goethe, is this during your time you mentioned taking a five year break? Because Alvarez and this asteroid theory are just dominating the headlines and the funding. And you went to study, I believe, was it the Eocene period?

[Gerta Keller]

I had started with the recent when I went to Stanford and then I worked my way down because I just wanted to know everything there was to know about any of these microfossils. And the older I got, the better it gets.

[Gregory McNiff]

Got it. And this five year break, it is focused on the Eocene, is that right?

[Gerta Keller]

Yes, it is. Part of it is focused on that.

[Gregory McNiff]

Okay. And this is also where it gets a little crazy. You're staying away from the asteroid impact theory and you know, you have to some extent been identified as someone who has cautiously critiqued it. You get an invite from Alvarez to attend a conference on the west coast and you've just done research on Eocene. And you published on it, as you told us it was based on your research. And the glass spirals in these cores, as an aside, getting access to these cores was a bit problematic because I guess they had either disappeared or been stolen. And I'll let the readers in the book read about that. But you pioneered this method of determining the level of glass spirules on the core. You publish a paper, you get a call from Alvarez who says, I want you to come out to this west coast conference and talk about this paper. Because it, in his view, may have represented a sixth extinction and therefore would have provided support for his impact theory. Could you talk about attending that conference and just how bizarre it was?

[Gerta Keller]

It was very bizarre. I did not know whether I should accept or not. And so I asked a couple of people, including my husband at the time, a mathematician, and he said, well, you know, best do what you can do and see and don't believe what they're saying if it's not true. And of course he didn't need to say that. And so I did go to this conference. It was actually only a total, I think about seven people. Plus around the desk there would be another 15 to 20 people. They were all the highest ranking people that the Alvarez, Luis Alvarez had already roped in. And my problem at that point was Louis Alvarez would just make up stories. From my point of view, what happened is that the impact happened and this, this, and then it got cold and then freezing and death and blah, blah, blah. And I would start raising my hands and said, but this is not the way it happened. And then the room would fall silent.

[Gregory McNiff]

And you mentioned a few prominent people, two of which I believe professor could help.

[Gerta Keller]

A rope is one. Yeah.

[Gregory McNiff]

Can't remember if Stephen Jay Gould was there as.

[Gerta Keller]

No, he would never agree with anything I do.

[Gregory McNiff]

So I want to hit on that. You do say in the book that Ralph was a paleontologist and for our viewers, he was well known at the University of Chicago, very well regarded, who, quote, was never interested in fossils. Interesting characterization of a paleontologist.

[Gerta Keller]

Absolutely.

[Gregory McNiff]

Could you, could you maybe expand on that? And for our viewers, this is someone who was sided with Alvarez, as is who Jay Gould is. And Gertrude, I'm wrong, but the establishment has really just adopted Alvarez's thesis hook, line and sinker based on basically the deposits of iridium. We'll talk about that. You've got substantial evidence to challenge it. But for whatever reason, the message isn't getting through A. Could you just clarify your characterization of route and then I want to talk a little more here about what's going wrong. Yeah.

[Gerta Keller]

What went wrong. In which case, though I'm not quite getting there, what went wrong basically is that I questioned people in a room full of highest ranking people, and I was the youngest. And usually Louis Alvarez got very mad at the time, but he wouldn't say anything. The reason being that he needed my science in order to continue his own, namely that there is another impact theory.

[Gregory McNiff]

And did you find it unusual that Raoul and Gould, who were respected and should have known better, agreed with Alvarez and never were interested in fossils? I mean, that must, at someone so young, that must have disturbed you.

[Gerta Keller]

The problem is that I always say no when I think I'm wrong, when they are wrong. And so Louis Amare did this, was disturbed at what I was doing, but he needed my data. Without it, he couldn't really continue. So the small story there is when I gave my talk and I was the only person in the room that gave a talk period. And so when I was walking, he was sitting actually two seats down from me. And when I passed by him to get to the podium, he leaned back and he said, gerda, don't bother us with your data. We don't need it and we don't care about it. And I said, well, Louis, sometimes we have to deal with data. That's all I said. But then I gave my talk. At the end, it was Raup. He came out at this meeting, which was high up in the Berkeley mountains at lunchtime, and he came out and he stood by and we watched the view for a couple of minutes. And he said, gerda, let me tell you, when you are with big people, you should stay quiet, not say anything. You will go far as long as you stay quiet.

[Gregory McNiff]

Yeah, no, that was fascinating and scary at the same time. And for the listeners, the data here for the Eocene discovery actually concerned comets. And I believe Alvarez and his team had this Goethe, maybe you should explain it. But this theory about periodicity and a nemesis star that was creating common impacts every 26 million years.

[Gerta Keller]

Yeah, nonsense.

[Gregory McNiff]

I, I and there are astrophysicists that are commenting on this as well and supporting it. Right. I mean, it was crazy.

[Gerta Keller]

Yes, absolutely.

[Gregory McNiff]

Yeah. I mean, I want to ask you about the breakdown of scientific process, but I want to finish the story of the Dinosaur War. So you take this five year hiatus, Alvarez calls you out there, you have this bizarre conference, and then now, now to the main event. You are continuing to attack this asteroid impact theory. They're pointing to the layers of iridium and the glass spirules. You are presenting at a conference called Snowbird. I think there are several Snowbird conferences out in Utah. It's getting quite acrimonious. And you're not attacking, but you're offered a measured response to the evidence. Could you maybe tell our viewers what you thought was wrong with the asteroid impact theory? Not that you're disagreeing with the time of. I'm sorry, the impact and Chicxulub, but you have a different view of what happened and when?

[Gerta Keller]

Well, yes, because much of the data that was presented was simply wrong. It was fabricated. And it was fabricated, actually by a number of people who knew very well, in fact, they had stolen the data before three times and made it disappear. And, well, twice it was totally disappeared, but NSF kept it. That's where we actually were lucky enough. But then when that happened, which was in 2003, then basically the whole impact theory that was presented there have been shown to be so wrong by my data and my collaborators. I had very few collaborators because nobody dared to talk to any of these people. And so it was. Well, we had a large number of good material and eventually moved into Deccan volcanism simply because that seemed to be the only way out to find what really happened.

[Gregory McNiff]

Excellent. And before we move there, it felt like the sort of knockout punch was your attendance at the conference in Nice, France, where you debated with a Smidt, a Professor Smit, and it felt like it was a knockout blow. I mean, the consensus was you. You won.

[Gerta Keller]

Could you.

[Gregory McNiff]

Before we move to Deca vulcanism, could you talk about the law and relying on iridium composites and why you don't think that's, you know. And for our listeners, iridium is very rare on Earth but is found in large degrees in asteroids. So could you. Could you maybe say how they misinterpreted that data?

[Gerta Keller]

They misinterpreted that data, actually, much later, because for decades I had been searching for Meridian because I knew it was not right what they were doing, but I lacked the chemistry. I didn't have enough science background on that. And so one day I was invited to give a lecture in Florida State, and there was a good packed audience. And there was one guy who was asking me questions all the time about iridium and the impact and so on. And at first I thought, oh, boy, another impactor. He will give me hell. And then he stepped down and he said it was a very good talk. But tell me, why do you not believe in the iridium? And I said because I don't think it's right. And I'm looking for someone who has the background, the physics of it, the asana, the impact data that could find out. And would that be the one? I will give you as many samples as you need because I have the largest collection in the world. And consequently, the year later he told me he would do it. And it took him only another year, year and a half and his students and they found out that iridium was never there in prime big deal days. Este siete yocho de octubre aprovicha grande sofertas in un nuevo espa? De pies te transformara en la reina de la relaxacion.

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[Gerta Keller]

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[Gregory McNiff]

Gerta does this get back to how you were suggesting they falsified the data when you said the iridium was never there? Why did Alvarez and all his followers.

[Gerta Keller]

Believe it was because they didn't know themselves?

[Gregory McNiff]

And you go on to use methodologies like stratigraphy and precise dating, as well as micropaleontology, right, to talk about the minerals when they were part of the sediment and when some of these species were already in decline before the supposed impact. Could you talk about how your own research supported this idea that the impact was not the killer? Not only did the iridium theory not line up, but the idea of the species being in decline beforehand and the level of glass spirules as well suggested that, hey, they got the timing of the asteroid wrong relative to the dinosaur extinction.

[Gerta Keller]

Yes, but that was always difficult to to prove. The impactors, I call them impactors. They simply denied whatever they picked to deny and there was never any real data. And when there was a data that you thought should be right, they would just create something else. It was very strange. And I did this for years and tried to convince them of otherwise, only to get basically made a fool of and told them how stupid I was and all that sort of thing. And well, that's when eventually, after we worked for so many years on going through every analysis we could do in every area, I decided it was time to look at Deccan volcanism. So that's more or less where we ended up got it.

[Gregory McNiff]

And could you describe the thesis behind Deccan volcanism, these massive volcanic eruptions and why you think that that ultimately led to the demise of the dinosaurs?

[Gerta Keller]

Deccan volcanism in India is absolutely massive. If you ever go there, it is just, oh, awe inspiring. And I was invited the first time in 2005 to look at forams for a minifera because nobody in India seemed to know what they are. And so I took my invitation and I went to see what really happened there and it was fantastic. It was the mass extinction right there in front of me and it was the tiniest microfossils you can find, which had already died, except for one species. And that one species is the survivor that is still alive today. So we made a fantastic discovery and as a result of that, I actually was able to go a lot further with Indian scientists who were doing deep sea drilling. And I had met them once. No, not really met them. I had reviewed one of their papers some years earlier and I thought, wait a minute, this is something new that I didn't know and I would like to know. And. And then I looked for those two people and we actually. I found the best scientists I ever saw and ever. And they're still my colleagues.

[Gregory McNiff]

Yeah. It's fascinating how you build the theory for Deccan volcanism, or what you refer to as climate change. And I think you address this, but these volcanic eruptions were happening over a timeframe of hundreds of thousands of years and you pointed to deposits across multiple layers to suggest this one and done. Impact theory just wouldn't hold up. And by now in your book you talk about all of a sudden there's now this hybrid approach. No one wants to dismiss the impact layer, but now they're suggesting it's maybe a one, two punch. Were you seeing that? In the late 2000s, people were saying, we still believe in the impact theory, but Deccan volcanism also contributed to the demise. How would you respond to that?

[Gerta Keller]

They're still saying. No longer saying that, because we know now that Deccan volcanism was massive. But the impactors now want to say, forget it. Deccan volcanism really didn't do anything. It was all global cooling in the Atlantic. And that is the funny and most ridiculous thing that I've ever heard, because it was only in 2003, no, even earlier than that, that I looked at climate change in the Atlantic. And I found that the climate change really has nothing to do with the change itself. Because in the Atlantic, you have the currents that are moving from the south to the north, and with that current, everything gets eroded. So what I had always shown and proved many times, is that the deep sea, not in the Atlantic in Mexico and in the Mediterranean and wherever is. What happened is when we found out that Deccan volcanism created such huge lava eruptions right before the mass extinction, to the extent that it was just one eruption after another, you could hardly count them. And then it ended and the mass extinction was over and so were the dinosaurs. But that's where the impactors had to end it. And so they said, it can't be Deccan volcanism, it has to be the Atlantic. And this is what they're still saying today.

[Gregory McNiff]

Yeah, I want to ask you about that. Why? Why does this impact our asteroid theory still, you know, why do some scientists still claim to it when the evidence clearly suggests it's just not realistic? I mean, what's your thoughts on that?

[Gerta Keller]

Because how can you admit to have been wrong after 40 years when we all knew all along they were wrong?

[Gregory McNiff]

And Goethe, by we, you're referring to the paleontologists, right? People who really. This is irrelevant.

[Gerta Keller]

Not just paleontologists. Mostly they are not paleontologists. The real paleontologists have eliminated themselves from the impactors, the dinosaur people they never wanted. Within a few years, they were so mad at Alvarez's. That went the insults he produced on them all the time. Yeah, they just did their own thing, and rightfully so.

[Gregory McNiff]

No, that makes total sense. And I know you said after 40 years, it's tough to prove you're wrong, but, you know, we in the public think of the scientific method as being very rational, clinical, thorough. How did this happen? I mean, Alvarez must have had some influence. William Nobel. But as you point out, the editors of Science and Nature got on board. They would publish multiple articles. Even when it was obvious they knew it was wrong. I mean, candidly, it felt more political than scientific. How did it happen then? And do you think it could happen again today? Where we just have a complete breakdown in the process.

[Gerta Keller]

It was a complete breakdown in the process, number one. Number two, there was such a strong group of people, excuse me, of people who could no longer stand by, stand by and create kind of the fool's story as they did. But it didn't matter because NASA wanted the story to be there because they got a lot of money for it. I hear now that that has ended to a large extent.

[Gregory McNiff]

That's good to know. But it is still troubling towards the end of the book. You suggest we might be heading to a sixth extinction. How likely is that? And what would you suggest we do to divert or avoid that?

[Gerta Keller]

It's about 10 years, almost 15 years since I started on the sixth extinction idea and I wrote a paper on that. Nobody believed it at that time. And then I went back to look at it and I found, my God, what has happened is even worse. And today of course it is now so bad that while I expected we would have the. So while I expected we would have the fifth extinction may be in 200 years or so. Well, it came so quickly, the dream. I now believe that it is already right on board in a sense. The extinction has already happened and it's continuing. And that is the frightening part. I used to tell my students that every year on the field trips or where we went on all of those and they would say Goethe, if you're really right then prove us and find where those impacts various are that you say have not happened. And so we did one year with a very good crew and I had them dig out a new area and we found the impact various 2 meters thick of pure glass, from meltrock glass to the big cooling spherules and then on to the cooler spherules and so on. It was just a stacked up version. It was a eureka moment like nobody has ever seen. And then we found it in two more areas. It was fantastic and the impactors told me it was all wrong.

[Gregory McNiff]

And just what in your view would cause the sixth extinction? Is there anything we can do to.

[Gerta Keller]

Prepare for is climate change? Climate change is the worst and as.

[Gregory McNiff]

You just mentioned, we're pretty far along and to be candid, it's man made fossil fuel usage, is that correct? Berta, any suggestions for what we can do at this point or have we reached an inflection point? Is it too far gone?

[Gerta Keller]

It's too far gone.

[Gregory McNiff]

Was hoping you wouldn't say that.

[Gerta Keller]

It's too far gone but we can survive it if we can stop the fossil fuel production. And that has never happened because we tried to stop it in 2000 and it didn't work. And we've tried to stop it literally every couple of years and it never worked. Everybody, there was always more money to be made and that's where we are.

[Gregory McNiff]

Yeah, it's unfortunate, but your evidence in the book is quite sobering. I want to end the interview on a higher, more optimistic point. Obviously you're a model for anyone holding to the scientific method, particularly in the face of criticism where the data ultimately derives the view and the assessment of the facts and the theory. But I think you're also a model for women in science. Hopefully we've made significant progress since your entry into academia. Could you talk a little bit about that? Or a woman who's thinking, going, not only paleontology but also physics or stem. Have we made progress there? Any advice you would give them? I mean, candidly, they're probably still going to be outnumbered at this point. What advice would you give them to serve? Just do your job well and hopefully like you, things will eventually turn out right.

[Gerta Keller]

I'm not this confident these days that things will turn out right because I find that what is being called science today does not seem like what I used to think of science. It is always something that is. I don't want to say hocus pocus. I want to say it's people who think that there are so many other things that they can produce or do, but somehow it never seems to end up as the real thing or the real science. That's. To me, that's, that's a real problem.

[Gregory McNiff]

And Gerta, obviously money. And you know, we talked about this before. You were somewhat, I guess you were bribed effectively. Gerta, stay quiet and your career will go places. Is that still the problem or is like we talked about the beginning of this interview, you were told women by the Japanese researchers just can't do science. Is that still a problem as well? What's turning science into hocus pocus these days?

[Gerta Keller]

In my case, I have never met an Indian scientist and there are millions of them who have not believed that I was right or at least doubted it, but would not say much about it because I have discovered enough areas that would make a lot of people worry about that science, that what we are doing as science is still science.

[Gregory McNiff]

And again, the cause for that is like we talked about, right? The money, the prestige and the, the concern one's own career. Yeah, well, hopefully, hopefully things will improve on that front as well as climate change. At a minimum, you sound a very needed alarm for how these processes are broken and the trajectory we're on. As I said at the beginning of your book, it's very. It's a fascinating read, both from your own personal journey and obviously the science behind the thesis you put forward. It comes across as very strong. Incredible. Again, the book is the last. The Real Science behind the Death of the Dinosaurs by Gerta Keller. Gerta, thank you so much for joining me today. This was a great conversation.

[Gerta Keller]

You're welcome. And I liked it very.