Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network – New Books in Japanese Studies
Host: Jingyi Li
Guest: Gian Piero Persiani, Professor of Japanese Literature at the University of Illinois
Book: Poets, Patrons, and the Public: Poetry as Cultural Phenomenon in Courtly Japan (Brill, 2025)
Date: December 19, 2025

Main Theme:
A deep exploration of medieval Japanese waka poetry as a cultural and social phenomenon. Gian Piero Persiani discusses how poetry intersected with issues of power, gender, social identity, and literary tradition, drawing from his new book that takes a panoramic, “bird’s-eye” view of waka’s role in courtly life.

Guest Introduction & Background

[02:41–03:36]

• Persiani was born and raised in Rome, educated at Columbia University, and is now Assistant Professor at the University of Illinois.
• He specializes in premodern Japanese literature (10th–11th centuries), particularly the relationships between literary forms and the connections between writing and place.
• Courses taught range from classical Japanese literature to contemporary East Asian culture.

What is Waka?

[04:01–07:16]

• Definition: Waka means "songs of Yamato" (ancient Japan), referring initially to various poetic forms, eventually narrowing to 31-syllable poems, formatted 5–7–5–7–7.
• Lasting Legacy: Still practiced today as tanka, now with fewer classical restrictions.
• Themes: Nature (seasons) and love dominate, especially as anthologies became popular.
• Major Works:
  • Man’yōshū: 8th-century anthology with 4,000 poems.
  • Kokin Wakashū: First imperial poetry anthology (905), foundational to the waka tradition.
  • Hyakunin Isshu: “100 Poets, One Poem Each,” a widely known anthology with modern cultural impact (e.g., card games, anime).
• Quote:

  “Chances are that you know [waka] as a poetry of nature or as a poetry of love.”
  —Gian Piero Persiani [05:41]

Motivation for a Broad View on Waka

[07:46–11:13]

• Many previous studies focus on select poets or anthologies.
• Persiani argues for analyzing waka at scale due to its vast, decentralized, and dynamic body of work.
• Draws analytical tools from the sociology of art, history of the book, and distant reading, leading to a “bird’s-eye view.”
• Memorable Analogy:

  “It’s like looking at a large pointillist painting… if you stand too close, all you see are colorful dots. When you step away, you see the coherent whole.”
  —Gian Piero Persiani [09:59]

Waka and its Social & Cultural Context

[11:46–14:55]

• Inclusivity: Every educated person, regardless of gender or rank, composed or read waka.
• Role of Social Identity:
  • Literary creativity was constrained by social norms and situations.
  • Social identity shaped poetic practice (e.g., junior officials using poetry to plead for promotions).
• Women Poets:
  • Conformed to literary femininity, not from compulsion, but because it offered the best opportunity to realize societal benefits.
• Quote:

  “Our modern understanding of poetry… didn’t really apply in the premodern period… There was much less creative freedom and much stronger constraints.”
  —Gian Piero Persiani [13:03]

Waka and Literary Chinese

[15:25–18:41]

• Literary Hierarchy:
  • Writing in literary Chinese (sinaitic) was most prestigious; waka was below, with prose and fiction lowest.
• Influence:
  • Waka matured by borrowing rhetorical techniques and practices from Chinese poetry, including imperial anthologizing.
• Tension:
  • Waka poets both incorporated and resisted literary Chinese dominance to secure waka’s place in the literary landscape.
• Gendered Division:
  • Women were typically denied access to literacy in Chinese, resulting in their association with vernacular forms.
• Quote:

  “Waka had a kind of complicated relationship with writing in sinitic and sinic poetry in particular. I say complicated because on the one hand, waka matured as a genre by incorporating many features from poetry in Chinese…”
  —Gian Piero Persiani [16:16]

Waka and Political Authority

[21:43–24:34]

• Origins: Anthologies often compiled by imperial command; poems by emperors or high officials.
• Subservience and Allegiance:
  • Composing poetry on command as an act of loyalty.
• Horizontal Exchanges:
  • Poems also exchanged among peers and lovers, serving as social glue for alliances and networks.
• Role of Audience:
  • Royal command poetry addressed to the sovereign; informal poems exchanged reciprocally between peers or family, both contexts reinforcing social and political ties.
• Quote:

  “Composing a poem in these contexts... was very much equated to an act of subservience, or at least amounted to stating your allegiance and loyalty to authority.”
  —Gian Piero Persiani [22:18]

Why Waka Was Popular

[24:54–27:50]

• Societal Enthusiasm:
  • Poetry was both a requirement for education and a source of pleasure and social connection.
  • Functions similar to popular music or celebrity-following today.
  • People collected, discussed, and even illustrated poems, displaying high cultural engagement.
• Interpretation & Wisdom:
  • Poems served as frameworks for interpreting experience, quoted in daily life and fiction to make sense of situations.
• Quote:

  “Waka wouldn’t have flourished the way it did without an extremely high level of interest in it in contemporary society.”
  —Gian Piero Persiani [24:58]

Evolution and Endurance of Waka

[27:50–28:46]

• New Forms:
  • Linked verse (renga) and later haiku emerged, but did not replace waka.
  • Poetry forms coexisted and all retained popularity.

Persiani’s Favorite Waka Poems

[28:57–31:53]

• Challenge of Selection:
  • Persiani emphasizes the value in the whole corpus, not single poems.
• Two Chosen Poems:
  • First: By Fujiwara no Teika (c. 13th century), referencing The Tale of Genji—layers of landscape, love, and literary allusion.
    • “The floating bridge of dreams of a spring night breaks in the sky, Banks of clouds part over the mountain peak.”
    • Japanese reading: haruno yo no yomeno ukihashi todaite [29:27]
  • Second: Used to close his book—lament over a love affair’s end, regret over a dream’s conclusion:
    • “If there is a thing that prompts even more regret than losing one's life, it is to wake from a dream whose ending one has not yet seen.”
• Quote:

  “To understand waka, you need to look not at one poem or a few poems, but all of them.”
  —Gian Piero Persiani [28:59]

Waka in the Age of AI

[31:53–34:13]

• Contemporary Relevance:
  • Poetry is historically valued as the direct expression of one’s inner feelings.
• AI Limitations:
  • While AI can generate poetry, it lacks “interiority”—the genuine emotion or experience behind the words.
• Optimism for Poetry:
  • The proliferation of algorithmic content may restore or enhance the cultural value of human-authored poetry as authentic expression.
• Quote:

  “No matter how hard the AI tries... it will never be able to express interiority because it has no interiority. So I think that the spread of AI might bring new interest in forms of language that give access to the person behind the words.”
  —Gian Piero Persiani [33:10]

Notable / Memorable Moments

• Analytical Metaphor:

  “Looking at pointillist art—you need distance to see the coherent whole.” [09:59]

• On poetic practice and societal value:

  “Waka poets wrote with much less creative freedom, subject to real-life constraints and social expectations.” [13:03]

Key Timestamps

• [02:41] – Guest background
• [04:01] – What is waka?
• [07:46] – Why study waka on a large scale?
• [11:46] – Social roles in waka composition
• [15:25] – Relationship with literary Chinese
• [21:43] – Waka and political authority
• [24:54] – Waka’s popularity and cultural functions
• [27:50] – Evolution and coexistence with other poetic forms
• [28:57] – Persiani’s favorite waka poems (with translation)
• [31:53] – Poetry and the future in the age of AI

Concluding Notes

Persiani’s Poets, Patrons, and the Public argues for viewing waka not as isolated works of art but as a dynamic, systemically embedded cultural phenomenon. The book—rooted in both literary analysis and sociocultural theory—demonstrates how waka shaped, and was shaped by, the evolving social, political, and literary currents of medieval Japan. Persiani closes with an optimistic view for poetry’s future in the digital age, where authentic human expression may become ever more valued.