Gina Vale, "The Unforgotten Women of the Islamic State" (Oxford UP, 2024)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Gina Vale, "The Unforgotten Women of the Islamic State" (Oxford UP, 2024)
Aired: September 29, 2025
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Dr. Gina Vale, Lecturer of Criminology, University of Southampton

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Overview

In this episode, Dr. Miranda Melcher interviews Dr. Gina Vale about her powerful and ground-breaking book, The Unforgotten Women of the Islamic State. Through extensive fieldwork and sensitive interviews, Dr. Vale unpacks how Islamic State governance operated in Iraq and Syria from the perspectives of women—shedding light on experiences long overlooked in scholarly, policy, and media circles. The conversation explores the gap between IS’s official gendered rhetoric and its practical enforcement, the intersectionality shaping women's lives under IS, and the overlooked forms of both suffering and resistance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Project and Research Approach

• Research Motivation: Dr. Vale set out to explore the long-term impacts of Islamic State (IS) governance on local women in Iraq and Syria, highlighting the glaring absence of women's voices in prior literature.

  • “Local women’s voices have been very underexplored... I quickly realized that we didn’t know what they went through to start with.” (03:39-04:26, Dr. Gina Vale)

• Methodological Challenges

  • Navigating trauma, politics, and her own “outsider status” as a white Western researcher.
  • Relied on trusted local women’s rights organizations, journalists, and chain referrals to build trust.
  • Fieldwork involved visiting multiple IDP/refugee camps and conducting remote interviews in Syria.
  • Fieldwork coincided with the collapse of IS’s last territorial enclave in Baghouz, making access and timing particularly sensitive (08:09-09:14).

2. IS Gender Governance: Expectation, Stratification, and Identity

• IS’s Gendered Social Order:

  • “Almost like an onion. There were so many layers to it.” (10:33, Dr. Gina Vale)
  • Enforced a strict, binary hierarchy: men as public warriors, women as domesticated and reproductive.
  • “Men were meant to be aggressive and dominant. Women were meant to be subservient, obedient to their husband, obedient to others.” (12:22-12:27)

• Intersectional Stratification:

  • Identity factors—age, marital status, and especially ethno-religious background (e.g., Sunni, Shia, Yazidi, Kurdish)—determined different rules, expectations, and degrees of violence.
  • “Even as a woman, you’re not just a woman under Islamic State. The different intersecting aspects of your identity puts you into different categories... subject to different governance rules and regulations.” (14:46-15:05)

• Geography & Timeline:

  • More intense surveillance/punishment in cities like Mosul and Raqqa than in rural areas.
  • Governance became increasingly harsh from 2012 to 2014-15, then gradually declined from 2016 onward (15:48-16:06).

3. Regulation versus Reality

• Gap Between Policy and Practice:
  • “There are regulations on paper and then there is the reality of the practice...” (16:38)
  • Some ‘red lines’ (like forced marriage for Sunni women) were more strictly enforced than others.
  • Example: Ban on trading pregnant Yazidi slaves was regularly ignored by IS members for personal gain.
  • “They were treated as chattel... You could see the way in which the regulations simply did not apply to them when it was convenient.” (19:08-19:23)

4. Access to Public Spaces and Services

• Movement and Modesty Restrictions:

  • Women’s movement restricted—required male chaperones and full-body coverings, making even shopping or seeing a doctor a struggle.
  • “A lot of the women said they just couldn’t see anything... couldn’t even tell whether the shopkeeper had given them the correct change because they couldn’t see their own hand in front of them.” (22:01-22:14)

• Segregated Services:

  • IS established parallel systems: female-only hospitals, schools, markets, and sometimes even separate sidewalks.
  • Economic stratification: some families couldn’t afford mandated dress, forcing women to depend on neighbors for necessities.
  • “There were really hidden costs and impacts of these regulations that came through in the interviews...” (25:36)

• Healthcare Inequality:

  • Female-only medical staff for civilians; enslaved Yazidi women dependent on their captors to access healthcare, often denied treatment.
  • “Not even a second-class citizen... a third class, or not even a class at all.” (29:07)

5. Enforcement & Punishment

• Women Policing Women:

  • IS created all-female brigades (e.g., Al Khansa Brigade) within the “morality police” to enforce rules on other women—surveilling, whipping, detaining.
  • “There was no protected space other than their own home from which they could shield themselves from Islamic State surveillance.” (36:32-36:38)
  • “It all comes down to this stratification of women and the empowerment of some women to punish other women.” (39:22)

• Spectacular vs. Hidden Punishments:

  • Public punishments: floggings, stonings, especially for “sexual” transgressions like adultery.
  • Hidden tools of repression: Women who resisted IS or assisted the anti-IS coalition were disappeared or executed privately to prevent others from seeing female resistance as possible.
  • “They didn’t want to advertise that women had the capacity of rebelling against the group in that way.” (38:42)

• Personal Trauma and Community Impact:

  • Many women Dr. Vale interviewed were family members of the “disappeared.”
  • “None of this is light-hearted. All of this is horrific... Entire communities are heavily traumatized and affected by what happened.” (44:41-44:52)

6. Education: Propaganda and Reality

• IS Propaganda vs. Real Policies:

  • Publicized images of educated girls in bright abayas contrasted with actual closing of girls’ secondary schools and barely-literate curricula.
  • “There was this almost institutionalized dumbing down of girls despite the fact they had promoted their education.” (52:36)

• Acts of Resistance:

  • Notable protest: 35 women and girls marched in Deir ez-Zor, successfully demanding a girls' school reopen (48:26-49:10).
  • Secret teaching: some educators secretly taught more advanced material, keeping forbidden lessons in hidden notebooks.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Research Motivation:

  • “We didn't know what they went through to start with. So... my own path to doing this book was actually a backtrack and realizing that there was such a gap in knowledge.” (04:23-04:38, Dr. Gina Vale)

• On Methodology:

  • "I am not part of the in-group that I was studying... I was very much aware of my outsider status, but working with women’s rights organizations, human rights organizations... and local journalists... starting from there." (07:05-08:30, Dr. Gina Vale)

• On Identity and Stratification:

  • “Even as a woman, you’re not just a woman under Islamic State. The different intersecting aspects of your identity puts you into different categories.” (14:46-15:05, Dr. Gina Vale)

• Healthcare Disparities:

  • “Not even a second class citizen... a third class, or not even a class at all.” (29:07, Dr. Gina Vale, about Yazidi women in hospitals)

• On Punishment and Surveillance:

  • "There was no protected space other than their own home from which they could shield themselves from Islamic State surveillance." (36:34-36:38, Dr. Gina Vale)

• On Remembering Trauma:

  • “None of this is light-hearted. All of this is horrific... Not only of the individuals that I spoke to, their families, entire communities are heavily traumatized and affected by what happened. And that’s going to take a long time to heal. But it is important to speak about and to learn from what happened.” (44:41-45:03, Dr. Gina Vale)

• Acts of Resistance:

  • “The strength of these women really never ceased to absolutely amaze and inspire me.” (49:48-50:09, Dr. Gina Vale)

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Key Timestamps

• [03:07] — Dr. Gina Vale's background and research motivation
• [04:26] — Discovery of the research gap
• [06:46] — Methodological challenges and building trust
• [10:26] – [15:13] — Gender governance, identity stratification, and IS strategies
• [16:38] – [19:23] — Policy vs. practice and enforcement
• [22:01] — Restrictions on women’s movement and clothing
• [25:01] – [29:19] — Segregated public services and healthcare inequalities
• [32:14] – [39:22] — Structure and mechanisms of punishment
• [44:41] – [45:13] — On trauma, purpose of the book
• [46:07] – [53:10] — Education policies and acts of resistance
• [53:31] — Dr. Vale's current and future research

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Closing Thoughts

This episode provides a deeply nuanced, empathetic exploration of the complex lives of women under the Islamic State. Dr. Vale’s research dispels reductionist narratives, showing how governance and suffering were shaped by nuanced identity intersections and geographies—and that resistance, both individual and collective, persisted even under the harshest conditions. As Dr. Vale notes, “it is important to speak about and learn from what happened,” lest these women and their experiences remain unforgotten.

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For further details, read The Unforgotten Women of the Islamic State (Oxford UP, 2024).

Transcript

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[Dr. Gina Vale]

Experian.

[Experian Advertiser]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

Hello and welcome to another episode on the New Books Network. I'm one of your hosts, Dr. Miranda Melcher, and I'm very pleased today to be speaking with Dr. Gina Vail about her book titled the Unforgotten Women of the Islamic State, published by Oxford University Press in 2024. Helping us understand what the governance of of the Islamic State is, the terrorist organization was like through the eyes of the women who lived under these structures. And this is really helpful for getting a perspective that's very much inside what it was like to live in this territory that was controlled at various points by the organisation in various ways. We're going to get into that and what sort of the gaps were between the officially stated rhetoric that might have been easier to see from the outside versus what this actually looked like on the ground. And of course how this changed depending on which kinds of identities, identity categories people were sort of put into and how this changed over time and how this changed in different places. There's lots of interesting nuance here that helps us understand obviously this particular group and these particular women's experience, as well as sort of how we think about governance in these sorts of situations. I think more broadly so we have a lot to talk about here. Gina, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Thank you so much for having me. And it's actually been about a year since the book was published, so it's.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Really lovely to be able to speak.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

About these issues again.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Thank you.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

Well, I'm very pleased to have you. Could you take us even further back from the moment of publishing the book to the origins of all of this? So if you could introduce yourself a little bit and tell us why you decided to write this book in the first place.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Yes, absolutely.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So I'm Dr. Gina Vale, I'm a lecturer of criminology at the University of Southampton. But I tend to always rebel, much to my colleagues, maybe distaste against the label criminologist, because I really am an interdisciplinary researcher.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

I draw from gender studies, feminist, security.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Studies, politics, IR as well as criminology, of course. And really all of this started because.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

I was interested in actually looking at.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

The long term impacts of Islamic State's.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Governance in Iraq and Syria for local women in general. Local women's voices have been very under.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Explored in academic literature as well as.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

In policy and media and we can.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Get onto that in a minute.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

But when I started my PhD, which was in 2017, that was at the.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Point where the group had just had its territorial collapse, its large territorial collapse.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

It wasn't over by that point, but certainly it was very much on the ropes and I wanted to look at.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Those long term impacts, you know, income, employment, health care, etc. Those experiences for women having survived and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Gone through the group.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And then I quickly realized that actually.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

We didn't know what they went through to start with.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So really, in fact, my own path to doing this book was actually a backtrack and realizing that there was such a gap in knowledge around the experiences of women under Islamic State at the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Time of their governance.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

It's always interesting how projects develop. I think it's so rare that someone says this is exactly the question I'm going to look at. And then that is actually what they end up doing. It's much more this sort of process of. Well, hang on a second, if I'm going to ask that, then I also need to know this and sort of, you know, you end up with all sorts of things to investigate. So thank you for telling us about the origin stories in this particular case. Given though, that gap, as you said, especially at that moment, it was pretty big and it wasn't something that was really looked at. And I think in a lot of Ways hasn't still been something that's been looked at a lot. And I would imagine one of the reasons is because of the sort of methodological challenges of getting the information to answer those questions. So how did you go about that?

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Well, I think there are not only methodological challenges of answering those questions, but there was also a lack of political.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Will and interest at that time.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

If we can cast our minds back to 2017, that was at the time where we were still concerned about all of the individuals from the the west, the global north, who had traveled to join Islamic State. That had been what was in the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Headlines up until that point.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And so I don't think many people had actually stopped to think about the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Individuals that had been caught up in.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

The mess and, and the terror and the horror of Islamic State beyond the Yazidi community.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And I know that we're going to talk about that. So methodologically it was really starting almost from scratch.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

It was being able to go into communities that were really hadn't had their stories told or even faced the questions of their experiences and their perspectives on the group.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And in a way, to a certain.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Extent that was a good clean slate when I wished to do this.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But also there were some challenges around.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Questioning why suddenly someone was interested in this too. And it was a very sensitive time. Still is to a certain extent a very sensitive time around these topics.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So yes, certainly methodological challenges and I don't know if you want go into that in a little bit more depth.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

I'm very happy to do so, Please.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Okay. So really for me, it was about chain referrals and really trusted networks because I acknowledge as a white Western woman.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

I am not part of the in.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Group that I was studying, very much an outsider. And in fact, I'm a redhead white woman. So to look at me, it might be that I look closer to some of the women who converted to Islam and joined Islamic State coming from the UK than otherwise someone who can relate.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To the experiences of local Iraqi, Syrian and Kurdish women on the ground.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So I was very much aware of my outsider status, but working with women's rights organizations, human rights organizations, as well as local communities that had really started.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Trying to work on reconciliation and reparations and also local journalists as well that.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Focused on women's rights, women's health issues, etc. And essentially starting from there and saying.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

No one's taken an interest in these experiences, no one's taken an interest in local women. And I think that's a disservice to those women's experiences.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But I think also it's a massive gap in our knowledge, and I want.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To fill that gap.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And I think these women, if they.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Were interested and willing to speak to me, have really valid perspectives that need to be heard. And I really started from there. It was a very open and honest conversation.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

I went into Iraq and into seven internally displaced persons, or IDP camps and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Refugee camps inside Iraq, as well as local communities kind of encircling those camps.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Where others had been displaced to, as.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Well as doing remote interviews for individuals in Syria. Because, of course, at that particular time when I did my fieldwork, which was.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

In 2019, I couldn't travel into Syria. And actually, as I was in Iraq, that was when Islamic State's final enclave.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Of territory in Baguz fell.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So it was a very interesting time.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To be doing fieldwork.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But again, essentially it was about working.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

With trusted networks, working with local women.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Local women led organizations, and really trying to build up trust and have that open conversation.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

Yeah, those are definitely tricky circumstances to navigate. Not impossible ones, obviously you managed it, but lots of things to keep in mind and sort of think about how to navigate appropriately for all sorts of reasons. Right. So thank you for that part of the process. Can we get into a bit then, of what you found having those conversations? So I think maybe an interesting place to start is around kind of what the expectations were for these women. Once the Islamic State takes over the territory that they live in, what were they then supposed to do or not do or sort of behave? And was this sort of a blanket expectation of kind of any bit of territory they controlled? This was what was brought in for women, or did it change based on where we're talking about, or whether the women were Yazidi or Kurdish or Sunni? What were the sort of things that were being imposed as expectations?

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Well, I think the most important thing to, I suppose, to visualize about Islamic.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

State's strategy of governance is it was.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Almost like an onion. There were so many layers to it.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And all of these together are different.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

For each individual circumstance, but they connect.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To make certain regulations for certain individuals in certain time points, certain spaces, etc.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Okay, so overarching Islamic State created a.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Gender binarized system of governance and its society. It built its society, society around very rigid, gender essentialized norms.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Essentially, men were expected to be dominant. They were the ones in charge of the public sphere. They really were the intended embodiment of this jihadi, hyper masculine, aggressive warrior, I suppose. And. And there's been some fantastic scholarship, particularly.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

By Catherine Brown on this, looking at the kind of warrior monk ideal for.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Men under Islamic State. And that was embodied by militants who, and I'm very careful to say, voluntarily joined and enlisted in the group or traveled internationally to join the group. On the other hand, you have women.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And the ideal vision of womanhood that.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Was the opposite of that, the complementary opposite. So whereas men were meant to be dominant in the public sphere, there was this blanket policy of domestication for women. Women were not intended to leave the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Domestic sphere unless for necessity or to run particular essential errands, et cetera, or go to hospital, that kind of thing.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Men were meant to be aggressive and dominant.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Women were meant to be subservient, obedient.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

To their husband, obedient to others. And so you have this, a distinct line between the sexes, and then under that you have different expectations for different categories thereof. So my research particularly found differences among women for age. There was this expectation that older women could fulfill that maternal role that Islamic states so wanted.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

It was a core part of the group's governance.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

As I say, to, to control along these gender essential line also means you.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Are controlling the reproductive capital of the individuals under your control. So they want women to give birth.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

They want women to have as many.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Children as possible to procreate for the caliphate.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So this idea of an older woman, a married woman, a woman that is.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

A mother, she is fulfilling that expectation and therefore garners greater respect within the community. And the opposite of that of course.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Is young unmarried women who are seen.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To be a sexual threat.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Their, their, their sexuality needs to be contained through this rite of marriage, etc. So you, you definitely have division along.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Age lines, but one of the greatest.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Divisions is along ethno religious lines.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And this is where you see the.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Difference between Sunnis versus Shia versus Yazidis, Christians, Shabbats, etc, along ethno religious lines.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

As well as differences between Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims, etc.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So the ideal and, and the state.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Was built for the purpose of Sunni Muslims and essentially anyone that didn't fit.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

That mold, there were various regulations that governed their treatment. And this was something that evol over.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

The first year or so of the group's governance. But essentially that could either be met.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

With death punishment, expectations of forced conversion.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Or in the case of Yazidi women, sexual slavery as well.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So there are very detailed regulations about all of these subtypes, but essentially it shows that even as a woman, you're not just a woman under Islamic State. But the different intersecting aspects of your identity puts you into different categories and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Therefore subject to different governance rules and regulations.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And you mentioned also where as well.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Well, certainly there was a difference between cities that were significant epicenters of the group's control. That's where a lot of foreign fighters.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And heads of their governance structures would live.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And therefore there was greater surveillance and.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Superv vision of those urban centers versus rural areas that had less oversight, but certainly not insignificant.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And of course, when as well, because if we look at the trajectory and the timeline of the group's governance, certainly you can see.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

From 2012, which was really when we start seeing the first.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Pockets of the group's governance right up until its peak in 2014-15, really an amplification of surveillance and punishment and violence, and then it's starting to peter off from 2016 onwards.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So it's the when, where and who.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Questions that were really important for me.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

Yeah, that definitely is very helpful to understand. And again, with that nuance, that it's not sort of just one blanket thing. And it sounds like from what you're saying, these are the expectations that are very much sort of stratified by who the women are and what kind of role they're conceptually meant to play in the Islamic State. And that these were enforced too. Right. It's not just they were saying one thing, but it wasn't actually being enacted.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Well, like everything, there are regulations on paper and then there is the reality of the practice that happens broadly. There were some, what I call red.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Lines for Islamic State, where they had.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Created a policy, let's say it was around the expectation for women to marry. And I. When women here, I'm talking about Sunni Muslim women, so that was. That was really a red line for them that you had unmarried single women.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

That were seen to be a threat for their sexuality. It was. It was almost a source of kind.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Of moral or social disorder within society.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And that needed to be fixed. And therefore they put in place regulations.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Around matchmaking, around marriage rights, etc, and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

They slowly but surely brought in regulations to make sure that that came under their sphere of influence and control.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But there were other regulations that whilst on paper, the militants and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And members of the group needed to.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Follow in practice, they diverted or diverged.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

From this and in. And acted essentially in their own influence.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

An example of this would be under their slavery provisions. So this was for Yazidi women and girls who were enslaved by the group.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Largely for the purpose of sexual gratification of militants.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And essentially they had, in paper, black and white, a regulation that said that.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

A pregnant slave should not be traded, should not be bought or sold. And again, this link links back to this control of patrilineal descendancy, this real.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Occupation and concern with legitimacy of childbirth, because that child would be. Would take on the nationality as well as the religion of the father. So if that child had been born to an Islamic State militant through rape.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Through a forced union, therefore that child would be Sunni Muslim and so should be raised as a Sunni Muslim within the caliphate.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So they really were concerned about trading pregnant Sabaya, which was the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Was the name for female prisoners of.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

War, the Yazidi women, they were really concerned about that put a ban on it.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

But in reality, it didn't stop militants.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

From doing it because to be really crude from their perspective, they'd had their fun and they just wanted to get another one. So it was heartbreaking to hear these stories, and particularly from women who their.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Reflection upon their treatment reflected the fact that they were treated as chattel, essentially. And you could see the way in which the regulations simply did not apply to them when it was convenient. And that really came through in their stories, unfortunately.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

Yeah, I can imagine those would be very difficult conversations to have, but also important to understand these gaps, as you said, between what's on paper versus what's actually happening.

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[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

Moving to another aspect of women's lives. Well, women's lives generally is. You mentioned earlier that a lot of these restrictions on paper and in practice were about keeping women very much in the home, focusing on, as you've mentioned, these reproductive aspects. But of course, even with that being the main emphasis, there are going to be some ways in which women have to access public services. So what did that mean? Kind of. What sorts of services were women expected to need to access? Did it depend on these sorts of things we've been talking about, like whether they were Sunni or Yazidi or Kurdish? What sort of did women's engagement with public life look like?

[Dr. Gina Vale]

I mean, everything I think I should say, and I probably should have caveated at the beginning, but everything is dependent on women's individual experiences, their own expectations too. So for some women, they didn't necessarily.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Feel a change from the beginning, so they didn't feel any restrictions. Others felt completely suffocated and had to navigate all of these different regulations that affected them. So it's all completely individual. Individual. But what I would say is that as part of the group's system of domestication, there was also this concern about women's modesty. And the two are obviously interconnected.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So for women, for Sunni Muslim women.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To be able to leave their home.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

They had to have a male chaperone, a mahram or guardian who would accompany.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Accompany them in the public sphere.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

They would be expected to wear a completely all covering dress code.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

So this included thick gloves, thick socks.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Niqab and abaya, and a twin layered.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Khimar over their eyes.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And a lot of the women said.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

That they just couldn't see anything. They would even go into a shop.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Try and buy something, and they couldn't.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Even tell whether the shopkeeper had given them the clothes, the correct change into.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Their hand because they couldn't see their.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Own hand in front of them.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And if that khimar was too thin, too transparent, that would be subject to punishment. And I'm sure we're going to get.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

On to law enforcement and punishment in a second, so I won't talk about that aspect for now.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But when it comes to the, the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Public services that these women were engaging.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

With, I suppose the, the overarching regulation.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Was as few as possible in case of necessity.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But one that almost all women reported.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Engaging with was healthcare because they needed to go to a doctor or a clinic.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And this is where you really see.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

The public services and the way in which these have been differently structured for men and women. It really does come to light because essentially, as part of that gender binarized.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

System of governance, Islamic State also created essentially a shadow system for women.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

So all female spaces to which men were not able to enter.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And the same is true in the reverse that there were, I suppose, the default spaces that were intended primarily for.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Men that women couldn't enter. So for example, you had schools, either.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Entire institutions or designated classrooms that were.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Only for girls versus boys.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

You had doctor surgeries, dentists, etc that.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Only saw female patients versus the default for men, full hospitals with either separate wards or an entire maternity hospital that a man couldn't even step foot in. So you had these completely separate spaces. And this took over the structure of.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

The entire way of living.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

This included even open spaces such as a market, for example. There would be certain stalls that women.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Were able to go in.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

So bridal shops, for example, or women's.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Underwear shops or certain pharmacies. But then there were other spaces that.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Women weren't able to enter to the.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Point where they even created separate pathways.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And separate pavements in certain urban centers.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And again, you know, the, the level.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Of this and how it was implemented differs widely beyond the key cities of.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Mosul and Raqqa versus, you know, the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Kind of periphery towns and. And into the rural villages. But essentially there was a complete segregated, physically segregated system in place, and that really put restrictions on women's movement. They weren't able to navigate those public spaces so easily.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And that, of course, restricted access. And it also has, and what I.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Think was quite an interesting revelation from.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

My interviews, it had an economic impact and stratification for these women because not.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

All families could afford to buy the.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Full items of the mandated dress code.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

For every woman in their family.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And so they would have to either.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Share or some women just couldn't leave their house and had to rely on neighbors in order to get them some basic necessities, such as groceries.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So I think there were certainly some.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Really hidden costs and impacts of these regulations that came through in the interviews that I found so fascinating.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

Yeah, those are definitely some really kind of key ways in which we might see, oh, well, there's lots of restrictions. Well, what does that actually mean, sort of for everyday life. So those are some very evocative examples. Before we move on to talking about enforcement and punishment, though, I wonder if you could maybe tell us a little bit more about the medical aspect. I mean, are we talking in these women only spaces? Does that mean female doctors?

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Yes, female doctors, female nurses, female clerks, female receptionists, female cleaners, female administrative workers, porters, you name it, only female staff. And I, I remember distinctly one particular case of a woman who went to.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Work in a hospital as a cleaner.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Because she had a financial necessity to.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Do so, not an ideological commitment to the group. And she was treated terribly by the female director of the hospital.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So it was an entire maternity hospital.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Just for women, and therefore a female director.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And this is where you start seeing.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

The stratification between women.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So I think this is probably one of the most important aspects of my book, is that not only did we get a stratification of different types of.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Civilian women, but the way in which the group's governance functioned and needed to.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Function, it relied upon certain women being.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Empowered in positions of authority to control.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And I know we're going to talk about punishment in a minute, but also.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To punish other women. And this was a direct example that.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

You could see in hospitals that you would have this director who was also a foreign woman who had joined, and that in itself was seen to be someone that had greater stake in the Caliphate project and therefore was granted that power.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

She was also the wife of a.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Senior officer and so was able to.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Withhold payment from this woman. She even hit her with her own shoe. She would force her to clean the.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Toilets, whereas she would give other women different jobs within the cleaning roster, etc.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

So you do see the stratification of.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Women inside these spaces and not just, you know, just the medical staff, for.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Example, it's also the administrative side, which I think is so interesting. But yes, with healthcare you also get distinct divisions of access and quality.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So for Yazidi women who were enslaved, they weren't able to just, you know, totter down the road and go and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

See a doctor or go to hospital because they were prisoners of war, they were sabaya. They were classed as sabaya. They were not classed as women, legally understood women inside the group's territory and state.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So therefore they relied upon their captor, their owner, to take them to a hospital. And for many women, they said, you know, that in itself was a challenge.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To get them to take them to hospital in the first place.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But then entering the hospital, they certainly.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Felt not even like a second class citizen because that was Sunni women versus Sunni men. But they felt as a third class or not even a class at all.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Because they were treated very poorly.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

They were refused medication except for necessity. And one Yazidi woman even said that.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

She was caught up in, in the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Shelling of a building. She had glass and shrapnel in her.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Leg and rather than clean out the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Wound, the doctor just sewed it up with the glass still in it.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And when she questioned it, they said.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Who are you to say anything? You're, you're meant to serve us. We're not here to serve you.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So there was brutality and inhumanity when.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

It comes to the treatment of these women in institutions that are built for.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And meant to care for individuals.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

This idea of health care just did not apply to Yazidi women and girls.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So certainly those spaces, the access to those services was really stratified among different types of women. And there were those that had greater.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Access and greater independence to seek medical care versus others.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And we even saw this with, with Sunni civilians too. So there were women that reported that.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

They were given out of date medication, the wrong medication. There was one woman that was given the wrong medication that she was allergic.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

To, had a severe and potentially life threatening reaction to it, and, and also were treated by medical students, or in.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Some cases not even medical students, just individuals that had been dragged in and told, you're going to now be a nurse, nurse in our system.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

If you want a job, you're now.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Going to be a nurse.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And they were. They were treating Sunni Muslim civilians. This is in stark contrast to the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Glossy magazines and the slick propaganda videos.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

That show individuals, for example, coming from Australia or Britain to join the Islamic.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

State Health Service, the ishs, which is modeled on the nhs, and they branded it accordingly. Very, very different from the beautiful birthing suites and the neonatal wards and all of that. That was open to individuals that voluntarily joined the group and had that ideological affiliation. It was a very, very different matter for civilian women, and as I say, even worse for Yazidis, but not good.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

For anyone is definitely no. A lot of what's coming through here. I do want to talk about this punishment enforcement question, because you've obviously given us some examples of it, which is helpful for sort of painting the picture. But of course, there is the risk of thinking, well, that's just one particular person who kind of took it too far, and obviously that's part of what's going on. But can you help us understand sort of more structurally what punishment enforcement looked like?

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Yes, and I think to. Kind of. Sorry to backtrack and go backwards almost on your question, but this comes back.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To this idea of.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Of who is a citizen under Islamic State, because if you're not recognized as a fully fledged citizen, then you don't have the same rights as another person. And this is really difficult when it comes to women in particular, because the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Charter of the city for Mosul and.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Raqqa talks about this.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

This kind of flock that will be.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Guided in this very paternalistic manner by the Caliph and talks about the rights that individuals have. And it even says that every citizen.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Is equal, like the tooth of a comb. So each. Each tooth within the teeth of a.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Comb, that's exactly what each person will have.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And of course, in reality, that's not the case. In fact, there is no mention of.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Woman, daughter, wife, sister, mother, girl, nothing. There is nothing about women at all within either document of the charter of.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

The city of Mosul or Raqqa. So women were not written into these documents, and therefore they faced greater scrutiny.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But I think the. The really critical bit about punishment in.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Particular is the way in which the group set up what has now become almost infamous, which is the morality policing brigades, kind of modeled in a way.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

On the religious police in Saudi Arabia.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

But certainly this idea of policing, what.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

They called preventing vice and promoting virtue, and this is something also that the Taliban brought in.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

So there is a. There is a long history of policing.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Correct behavior Sexual behavior, a sexual disorder.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

In particular, but very much focused on women's bodies.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So although women aren't necessarily recognized as.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Citizens of the Islamic State, they are the predominant focus of a lot of the policing regulations around what is correct behavior.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So I've already talked about the dress code.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Women also were not expected to speak.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

In public because their, their voices were a, which means provocative or potentially sexual or disruptive. And they weren't allowed to wear high.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Heels because the sound of those high heels could also be sexually disruptive. Etc.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And rather than policing men's sexual desires.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

It was policing women's bodies. But of course, in a state structure where you have men and women physically segregated in all of these public spaces that I've talked about, how on earth do you police women's bodies if this is a state structure that is built on men's dominance in the public sphere? Well, the answer to that was creating this distinct unit or units within the morality police, the Hizba.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And they were all female units. So the most well known one is the Al Khansa Brigade and that was.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Formed in Raqqa in February 2014. So pre declaration of the caliphate, it shows how important this was to the foundations of Islamic State's governance structure and setting up its governance even pre kind of caliphate declaration.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And essentially their, their role was to.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Police women, other women.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So it was that intra female violence.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

That was expected and, and almost celebrated in quite a lot of the group's publications.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And essentially they were able to hit women, to flog them, to whip them, to detain them as well. And the women that I interviewed said.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

That this was suffocating because there was.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

No protected space other than their own.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Home from which they could shield themselves from Islamic State surveillance.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Because by employing women who had the power to surveil them and to punish.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Them in these all female institutions and spaces, it meant that there was no privacy or security for them in the public sphere whatsoever.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And there are, there are instances of women having public whippings and floggings. Unfortunately, the most public punishment for women.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Was often execution by stoning. And this was for the charge of adultery. So it was very much a public.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Spectacle when a woman had done something.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And behaved in a way that was not expected of women inside Islamic State. It was, it was a public way to shame them, to, to educate others in correct behavior.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But there was also an area of this kind of crime and punishment that.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Is completely undocumented and up until my interviews, I think completely unknown and unspoken about.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And that's relating to the Secret punishments.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And detention of women who hadn't broken.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

The group's gender based or sexual based.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Regulations, sexual conduct rules, but instead had.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Acted, I suppose, in a more masculine way, I. E. To rebel against the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Group completely because women did. They.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

They participated in fantastic acts of resistance against the group, both covert and overt. And for women who were detained for.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Passing information to the Global Coalition Against Islamic State geolocation information, for example.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

If.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

They were found to be guilty of informing, then they would often be executed, but that execution would be done in.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Private because they didn't want to advertise that women had the capacity of rebelling.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Against the group in that way.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So it's a very interesting way in.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Which the group knew it had that self consciousness about red lines on what was an acceptable way to punish women.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Something that would almost have the support.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Of ideologically affiliated local communities.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And where that red line sat, that.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Would be an unacceptable way to punish women or something that they didn't want to advertise themselves. So I think it's fascinating, but essentially.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

It all comes down to this stratification of women and the empowerment of some women to punish other women.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And that's almost other with a capital.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

O. Yeah, no, the lines are very clearly drawn there. Thinking, though, about the sort of hidden aspect, I suppose, or the not wanting to advertise that this kind of rebellion was even possible. How did that work in terms of the conversations you had with the women about it? Was it talked about, given when you were speaking with them? Was it talked about still as sort of a secret it or how were they aware of these things in order to tell you about them?

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Well, some of them really, unfortunately were the family members of women who had been disappeared. So there was one woman in particular.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Whose daughter was working as a nurse inside the group's territory and she was a nurse before the group came in and she was forced to continue her practice. She did not ideologically affiliate or support the group, but she was forced to continue to treat militants and something went wrong. The mother's not quite sure exactly what went wrong, but she distinctly remembers on Mother's day, sadly, in 2015, her daughter.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Was taken from their family home, away.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

From her, away from her young son.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And was never seen again. And she went round all of the administrative centers and spoke to, again, women.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

In these administrative centers to ask about.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Her daughter and spent a long time questioning and going, you know, here, there and everywhere to ask about her, and essentially was eventually told, no, your daughter was informing against Islamic State.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And therefore we killed her and we threw her body down a well, you'll never see her again.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Matter of fact, her, her world fell.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Out from underneath her and it was.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

That expectation of, well, you're not going.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To see the body and you're not going to know anything and you don't have a right to because of what she did. Supposedly, of course, allegedly, there's no way.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

That there would have been a court case in particular for, for a crime such as that. But yes, that there were some women that I spoke to who were completely.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Heartbroken because this had directly affected them and directly affected their families.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

There were others whose former colleagues had been caught up with, you know, demonstrations for women's rights or informing and again had gone missing. And so that's how they knew about them. There were others, interestingly, who, they spoke about women who had been informing on the group, they knew about them and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

They spoke about what happened after Islamic States collapse.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And it's a very interesting dichotomy because you have men at the time, it was, it was very much public punishment for men, whatever men did.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And there are horrifically gruesome execution videos.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Published by Islamic State that show not only the classic James Foley and others.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Of foreign hostages, but also in public squares. Executions were part of demonstrating what was expected of the group society. And for, for men it was always.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

A case of public punishment. And for those that were seen to.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Have informed against the group and therefore committed that crime of, of treachery, a.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Common form of punishment was execution then essentially crucifixion of the body on an.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Electric pylon or somewhere that is highly visible high up as well, so that.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

They can't be taken down. And it would, it would look over.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And almost haunt the local communities because they would know what the punishment is for informing.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And interestingly, the women that I interviewed.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

I remember several, I heard this story.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

About this particular woman from two independent.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Sources, two independent women, and they spoke.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

About this woman who was part of.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

The Alhamsa Brigades, the Hizbus. So she was part of punishing other.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Women and had been kind of a long term jihadist supporter, kind of traveling through Syria etc and, and, and Iraq.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And very much followed the insurgency all the way through. And after the group's collapse, the local community also executed her and hung her body from an electric pylon in this kind of round circle of justice that the local community had taken it upon themselves to do so.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

A very, very interesting kind of public, private way in which justice was served.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And those differences, but certainly a lot of the women themselves were directly affected by those who had been disappeared.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

It's definitely hard to talk about, but in some ways all the more important to make sure it doesn't get lost.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Yes, yes.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And that is the entire purpose of this book. None of this is light hearted. All of this is horrific. What I'm talking about is the trauma.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Not only of the individuals that are. I spoke to their families, entire communities are heavily traumatized and affected by what happened. And that's going to take a long time to heal.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But it is important to speak about and to learn from what happened. And I think that, you know, overall, all of the women that I spoke.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To were very willing to share their stories. Those that didn't want to, of course.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

I didn't even interview them, but those.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

That did speak to me said that it was important to share their stories and their perspective because otherwise they do remain forgotten.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

Is there anything else then about what you found out from the women that we haven't discussed yet that you want to make sure we include?

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Oh, gosh.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Education, I think is a really important aspect of this because the way in which the group manipulated centers of education are really interesting. You have again, kind of these slick propaganda videos that promoted the group's education system, including girls in bejeweled abayas and pink hijabs. And you think, oh, wow, you know.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

This is, this is very different to the Taliban, for example, that hijab had.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Long opposed the education of women. And other publications have said, you know, we really promote women's education to be.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

A mother and to fulfill the maternal duty properly. Women need a good education in order to do that.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And so therefore we, we promote and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

We educate our, our girls.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But that's again, not really what happened in reality. So the women that I spoke to.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

There was one that was a school.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Principal in Syria and she spoke about having school inspectors.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

It's almost like a really warped version.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Of Ofsted coming into the school and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Was shocked to see that she had refused to segregate her classes, segregate her staff, etc within her school.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And this was very early on, I.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Should say, in, in the group's rule.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

So the individual militants doing these inspections.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

At that time didn't have the teeth to punish her for these infractions they did later on, but certainly were horrified to hear that there were girls learning.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Alongside boys, girls receiving a secondary education when really it was only meant to be primary. So it's kind of a tokenistic form of education for girls.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And then as time went on, we can See that there were greater infractions put for, for girls that didn't follow the dress code. For example, they were banned from attending.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

School if they didn't have the full cover. And that escalated with the age group of young girls.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And slowly but surely over time, girls.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Secondary schools were being closed for the simple reason that they just, just didn't have the female staff to teach and staff these segregated, separate sections. So girls secondary schools were being closed.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And I think linking to another point.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

On resistance, this was probably one of the most stark forms of resistance was.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Against the banning or prohibition around girls education full stop. And secondary education in particular. There was one woman who alongside 35 women and girls demonstrated in a public.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Protest.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And protested through Deir EZ Zor.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Including past the residence of the Wali, the governor of Deir Ezor, in order to reopen a girl's secondary school.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And they were successful.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

They did the, the, the group did reopen a girl's secondary classroom and it was the only girls secondary classroom at.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

That time within the local area, perhaps.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Within Syria itself under the group's control.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So it was a really significant act of resistance.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

It demonstrates the importance of girls education to the local community. Deir Ezor of course, being a real site of resistance against the Assad regime throughout the Syrian civil war.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So activism being particularly, particularly focused for that community.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

But certainly the fact that there were 35 women and girls not only in.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

The streets, but shouting and, and the.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

The women involved in the, in the protest sent me a video and I've, I've got a still shot of, of the video in was really quite an astounding form of resistance and bravery. The strength of these women really never ceased to absolutely amaze and, and inspire me. And there was another woman who was.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

A teacher who really demonstrated the, the stratification of education that was offered to local civilian girls versus foreign travelers to.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Islamic State because was, she said that.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

At the same time that this was.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Happening as girls secondary schools in particular.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But also primary centers of education were.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Being shut, the group was using, you.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Know, aerial bombardments as an excuse, saying.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Oh well, it's not safe for the girls to be educated anyway because you know, they'll be shelled so it's better that they just stay at home.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

At that same time, they were opening private institution centers and employed her, she.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Needed the, the money again in this situation.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And they employed her as a teacher.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

To teach Arabic to the daughters of foreign families who had come to join Islamic State.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And she said, you know, this is Ridiculous. How is it that we have these.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Private education centers with really small classes?

[Dr. Gina Vale]

You know, it's almost the classic public.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Private divide here in the uk, but.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Small classes, intimate teaching spaces for, you.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Know, foreigners that have come to join, that were seen as this elite class of society versus local girls who aren't.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Getting an education at all. And then they did eventually allow her to set up a separate classroom. But she, she was talking about how even for them, they were teaching them such basic things. Compared to the boys education, the, the curriculum was rubbish.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

It was, it was well below their, their kind of chronological age and therefore what should have been their educational age.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

For literacy, mathematics, etc, and so she.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Decided to come up with this dual system of these secret notebooks. And essentially the girls would keep a notebook for what they were working on, which was much more advanced roughly to their, what should have been their educational.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Level versus the standard textbooks that followed.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

The Islamic State curriculum.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And again, another inspector came round and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Double checked that she was teaching only the curriculum.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So there was this almost institutionalized dumbing.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Down of girls despite the fact that they had promoted their education.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So again, I think it's, it's really.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Quite interesting to, to see the difference of what is on paper, what is.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

In practice, but also the offering and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Access and quality of all services, et cetera, for individuals that traveled to join, that were seen as members, seen as citizens, written into this kind of contract of citizenship for Islamic State versus civilians that were kind of swept up and subjugated.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

I'm so glad you added those into our conversation. There are some really quite amazing moments there. So thank you for sharing them with us and I think that's probably a good place to conclude our discussion about the book. Though I do have a final question of what you might be working on now that this book is off your desk. Any current or upcoming projects you want to give us a brief sneak preview of?

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Yeah, lots.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So I'm particularly interested, you know, almost.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Going back to the very beginning of where I started, which is kind of the long term impacts of Islamic State's governance and looking at what on earth is going on now for women in.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Iraq, also in, in Syria.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

And of course the latest developments in Syria are changing the landscape and reality for women again.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But certainly I would like to see.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Those long term impacts.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

But at the moment a lot of my work actually has come back to the domestic context in the UK and.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

I'm particularly interested on the realities of children's indoctrination into.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Interval extremism and criminal.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Justice responses to children as well. So I've been doing a lot of.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Work on children convicted of terrorism offenses in the uk.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Some of the kind of mitigating and.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Aggravating factors at sentence and how we conceptualize and understand what this new child.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Terrorist is versus the traditional child soldier that we see in conflict theaters and.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And how that is responded to within.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

The criminal justice justice system.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And then looking at compounding vulnerabilities, so adding age and gender and also neurodivergence.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

Which is becoming a really key theme and prevalent trend in these cases of children convicted.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

So I suppose I'm, I'm geographically now splitting myself between my domestic context, which.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

I'm seeing the fallout of around me.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

And then my always eternal love for the Levant.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

Well, that certainly sounds like an interesting area to be researching, so best of luck.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Thank you very much. Thank you. Always keeps me busy.

[Dr. Miranda Melcher]

Definitely. And for listeners who want to know about your previous project, more about the book we've been discussing. It's titled the Unforgotten Women of the Islamic State, published by Oxford University Press in 2024. Gina, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

[Dr. Gina Vale]

Thank you so much for letting me indulge and speak about something that I'm still so passionate about that day.

[Dr. Gina Vale (continued or interviewer assistant)]

I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.