Gretchen Felker-Martin, "Black Flame" (Tor Nightfire, 2025)

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Kendyl Dineen
Guest: Gretchen Felker-Martin
Book Discussed: Black Flame (Tor Nightfire, 2025)
Date: October 24, 2025

In this episode, Kendyl Dineen interviews acclaimed horror author Gretchen Felker-Martin about her new novel, Black Flame. The novel explores themes of repression, queer identity, and personal transformation through the story of Ellen, a film restorer who uncovers a cursed 1930s queer film amidst her own struggles. Felker-Martin discusses her craft, the politics of her narrative decisions, and the importance of "unlikable" protagonists, as well as broader cultural conversations around violence, sexuality, and representation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Writing Unlikable Protagonists

[01:42–03:32]

• Ellen Kramer is introduced as the complicated protagonist. Felker-Martin explains her draw toward writing "unlikable" characters:
  • “If I’m going to read about the inner workings of someone’s mind, I would just assume that they not be normal, that I have to work a little to relate to them.” (Felker-Martin, 02:09)
  • Ellen is described as “a mess,” “deeply repressed,” and “making herself suffer horribly," but possessing "a natural generosity" and "a deep want to be of service.”

Queer Histories and the Shadow of Fascism

[03:32–04:58]

• The cursed 1930s film, The Baroness, was created by queer people fleeing Nazi Berlin. Felker-Martin drew this parallel intentionally:
  • “We’re living through it. You know, the parallels are so direct that the only way you can avoid them is through intentional ignorance... It’s happening again to Palestine. It’s ramping up to perhaps happen here some fashion.” (Felker-Martin, 03:56)
• The novel uses historical trauma to comment on present-day politics and oppression.

The Power and Choice of Film

[04:58–06:36]

• Felker-Martin chose film as the central medium because of her personal passion and its narrative power:
  • “I love to watch people work with film. I love to watch that slow, intentional, sensual craftsmanship... I love film. I got my start as a film critic.” (Felker-Martin, 05:20)
  • Film, unlike other media, is “directly communicative” and can subversively convey messages.
  • She highlights the lack of equivalent "protest statuary" and the unique power of film to "record entire actions.”

Research Process

[06:36–07:45]

• Although being a film critic reduced her need for basic research, Felker-Martin engaged deeply with technical aspects:
  • Conversations with Kodak lab employees and a manufacturer of ultrasonic cleaners.
  • Extensive reading about film preservation and historical accidents.
  • “There’s so many decisions involved in how to restore a film and which version you’ll be restoring and what constitutes an original film.” (Felker-Martin, 07:27)

Literary References and Influence

[07:45–09:15]

• The novel references Larry Mitchell’s 1977 book, The Faggots and Their Friends Between Revolutions.
  • This book embodies ongoing resistance and the creation of queer community and culture, even under threat.
  • Felker-Martin expresses a personal connection to “this era of revolutionary queer writing," highlighting the torch-passing through generations of activist struggle.

Sex, Violence, and Power

[09:42–11:02]

• Felker-Martin contrasts the violence of heteronormative romance and broader societal oppression with queer, consensual practices:
  • “We live in a society that is defined by sexual violence… Against this you have queer practices of sadomasochism which fold violence healthily and consensually into the fabric of a community.” (Felker-Martin, 10:20)
  • She frames these acts as intertwined with struggles for bodily and collective liberation.
  • “This is all about liberating our bodies and liberating our communities.”

Indecision as Complicity

[11:02–12:14]

• The novel thematizes the idea that refusing to act is itself a choice:
  • “We are all implicated in the crimes of our government and of our communities… The decision to not think about these things... is so seldom seen or confronted as a decision at all.” (Felker-Martin, 11:27)
  • Felker-Martin compares this with her personal experience of depression and the choice to stay inside suffering, affecting herself and others.

Bodily Autonomy, Fatness, and Representation

[12:14–14:59]

• The discussion turns toward body image and the cultural policing of fatness:
  • Both discuss the personal and social impact of internalized fatphobia and the refusal to accept oneself.
  • Felker-Martin addresses this in Black Flame through the character of Ellen’s thin, judgmental mother and the focus on characters happy to be fat.
  • “I’ve very seldom seen people who are even willing to entertain the idea that maybe some people are happy being fat or prefer being fat.” (Felker-Martin, 14:17)

Fat "Smoke Show" Characters and Sensuality

[14:59–16:47]

• Rachel Feldman, a secondary character, is celebrated for unapologetic fatness, sensuality, and freedom—a foil to Ellen:
  • “Rachel represents all of the things that Ellen has suppressed in herself… Rachel is fat and eats whatever she wants. Ellen is a closeted lesbian. Rachel fucks whoever she wants and does whatever she wants.” (Felker-Martin, 15:20)
  • The now-famous deli scene between Rachel and Ellen is cited:
    • “So many people have talked to me about how horny the sandwich made them, which is just, like, the highest compliment.” (Felker-Martin, 16:14)
  • Affirmation: “Eating is an affirmation of being alive and fat women are beautiful and desirable, your life is so much richer and better.” (Felker-Martin, 16:29)

Upcoming Work

[16:55–17:35]

• Felker-Martin reveals she is editing her next novel, Chimera, about a New Hampshire clan of shapeshifters wracked by family conflict.
  • “I’m only good at, like, three things, so I really have to spend all my time doing them.” (Felker-Martin, 17:29)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If I’m going to read about the inner workings of someone’s mind, I would just assume that they not be normal, that I have to work a little to relate to them."
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [02:09]

• “We’re living through it. You know, the parallels are so direct that the only way you can avoid them is through intentional ignorance.”
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [03:56]

• "We live in a society that is defined by sexual violence... And against this you have queer practices of sadomasochism which fold violence healthily and consensually into the fabric of a community."
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [10:20]

• “The decision to not think about these things... is so seldom seen or confronted as a decision at all.”
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [11:27]

• "[Rachel Feldman] represents all of the things that Ellen has suppressed in herself… Rachel is fat and eats whatever she wants. Ellen is a closeted lesbian. Rachel fucks whoever she wants and does whatever she wants."
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [15:20]

• “So many people have talked to me about how horny the sandwich made them, which is just, like, the highest compliment."
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [16:14]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:42] — Introduction of Ellen as a protagonist and on writing unlikable characters
• [03:32] — The historical setting and parallels between past and present fascism
• [05:16] — Why film as the medium, discussion of the power of visual storytelling
• [06:46] — Felker-Martin’s hands-on research process
• [07:45] — Discussion of Larry Mitchell's The Faggots and Their Friends Between Revolutions
• [10:07] — How violence, sex, and liberation interact in the novel
• [11:17] — The refusal to decide as a form of complicity
• [13:17] — Fatness, body image, and their intersections with repression
• [14:59] — The "fat smoke show" character Rachel and sensuality
• [16:55] — Felker-Martin teases her next novel, Chimera

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers an insightful, compelling look into both Felker-Martin’s creative process and the cultural stakes of her fiction. Listeners get not only a preview of Black Flame’s major characters and themes, but also a broader meditation on the intersection of history, politics, sexuality, and bodily autonomy—told in Felker-Martin’s characteristic candid, unflinching voice. The conversation is rich with personal and political resonance, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in contemporary queer horror, body politics, and the narrative potential of "unlikable" characters.

Transcript

[A]

Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast, or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.

[B]

Welcome to the New Books Network. I'm your host, Kendall Dineen, and today I'm speaking with author Gretchen Felker Martin about her new novel, Black Flame. Gretchen is the author of Manhunt, which came out in 2022, and cuckoo, which came out last year, in which I had the pleasure of speaking to Gretchen about for New Books Network. So if you haven't listened to that episode, you should go and find it and listen to it now. Her new book follows a film restorer named Ellen, who. Who, in the course of her job, encounters a cursed film that takes over and helps to ultimately transform her life. Thank you so much for being here, Gretchen.

[C]

My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me back.

[B]

So tell us a little bit about the protagonist of Black Flame, Ellen Kramer. I was, like, rooting for her cause I'm always rooting for protagonists, but she certainly has some unlikable qualities. And I'm curious how you kind of feel about writing unlikable people.

[C]

Well, I love it. I mean, that's the stuff that makes me interested in fiction, that makes me engaged, that makes me want to read something. If I'm going to read about the inner workings of someone's mind, I would just assume that they not be normal, that I have to work a little to relate to them. And you know, there are things about Ellen that I can relate to, but there's a lot more that I had to relate to, really work at being able to simulate in order to get her down on the page. Because, you know, like you said, she's a mess. She's not a good person. She's deeply repressed. That often comes out in the form of reactive or reflexive bigotry and interpersonal meanness. She's dissociated from her body and her life. She is having a very difficult experience of the world and in turn, making sure that everyone else is having a difficult time around her.

[B]

Just some glimmers of goodness, though, early on.

[C]

Yeah. No, I mean, I don't. I don't think she's an evil person. I think she's just making herself suffer horribly. And that does not make you behave well. Very true. But, you know, she does have things about her. She has sort of a natural generosity. She has a. Like, a deep want to be of service. I think that those things can be commendable.

[B]

Absolutely. Okay, so the film that Ellen is restoring, the Baroness, it was made in the 1930s by a group of queer people who had just recently fled from Berlin due to the rise of Nazi fascism. And I'm curious why you chose to set a portion of the novel in this time and place and to make this history really central to the plot of Black Flame.

[C]

Well, we're living through it. You know, the parallels are so direct that the only way you can avoid them is through intentional ignorance. Or, you know, you're doing it on purpose because that's what you love to bring into the world. And whether or not I mean to. My work always reflects whatever I'm mad about at present. And right now, I'm mad about the hateful, bigoted morons who are stuffing us all into smaller and smaller boxes for really no conceivable reason. This is such a legendarily horrifying series of events, but it's not unique. It was not unique when it happened, and it's not unique now. It's happening again to Palestine. It's ramping up to perhaps happen here some fashion. We're living in the midst of those same events and forces. And I wanted to talk about that.

[B]

I'm wondering if you can talk about why film, right? Why not, I don't know, a sculpture or any other sort of piece of cultural production. What is it that film does in this text that some other cultural object couldn't do?

[C]

Well, the short answer is that I don't Care about sculpture. Sculptures have moved me. I think it's very beautiful, but I have no tactile relationship to it. I love to watch people work with film. I love to watch that slow, intentional, sensual craftsmanship. I'm a huge depictions of work, bitch. And, you know, of course, also, I love film. I got my start as a film critic. I still work as a film critic. I also know a lot about film, so I can skip the queue with research. You know, I don't think that even had I devoted months to learning about another art form that I would have been able to represent. Working with it directly as film also is very subversive compared to many other art forms. You know, there's not a lot of, like, famous protest statuary. But because film is so directly communicative and because you can record entire actions, there's a lot of potential for using it as a medium to convey messages. And so that's, you know, really narratively, potentially rich.

[B]

Okay, so you mentioned research. Maybe you didn't have to do. It sounds like you didn't have to do a lot of research for a film. But I am wondering about your research process for the book.

[C]

I spent quite a while on the phone with some current and former employees of the Kodak labs. I watched a ton of archival footage of film restoration. I had a lengthy phone call with a really, really helpful guy from a company that used to manufacture ultrasonic cleaners in the 1980s. Just a lot of, like, nitty, gritty, mechanical stuff. I also did a lot of reading about accidents involving film and film storage. And I had a couple of books on the history of film preservation and restoration, which is just incredibly complicated. There's so many decisions involved in how to restore a film and which version you'll be restoring and what constitutes an original film. So I made myself familiar with the language and the terminology I really loved.

[B]

I don't know anything about film restoration except for what I learned from this book. And I was very happy to learn it. So I really appreciate it. Okay, so I am so curious about why you included. You sort of include Larry Mitchell's in my Mind, like, just wonderful book from 1977 called the Faggots and Their Friends Between Revolutions. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about why this book makes an appearance in Black Flame.

[C]

Well, I love this book. I think that it illustrates a few things that are very important to me personally. One, we will never stop having to fight, but that doesn't mean that we can't have complete lives and community and that we can't build things that last for a while or a long while or even a little bit. And that they don't. I find this era of revolutionary queer writing to be really fascinating. You know, it's in the 80s. A lot of American revolutionary violence and movement is dying down and being crushed out by Ronald Reagan after decades of systematic assassinations by the FBI, mlk, Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, and there's this real sense that, like the torch will have to be carried forward.

[D]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together, use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more at WhatsApp.com Splake Mitchell's book.

[B]

To a degree, Black Flame juxtaposes the the sort of banal sexual violence of the heterosexual romance plot, something which I think Black Flame ties to bigger issues like genocide and this kind of alternative, like violent queer sex that is mutually pleasurable and desirable. So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about how you want readers to be thinking about the relationship between violence and sex when they're reading Black Flame.

[C]

So I think that we have a lot of reckoning to do with our relationship to violence and to sexuality into the combination of these two things. We live in a society that is defined by sexual violence, that is ruled by overt sexual predators, and the strong, enduring taboo against discussing sexual violence has allowed it to flourish completely unchecked and to become a defining facet of our society. And against this you have queer practices of sadomasochism which fold violence healthily and consensually into the fabric of a community. And I don't think that's at all separate from the violence of political struggle. This is all about liberating our bodies and liberating our communities.

[B]

Thank you for that. That was a beautiful answer. And I'm also curious about the way the novel confronts readers with how a refusal to decide can be a choice in itself. Was this an important element of the story, and if so, why?

[C]

Absolutely. I think that it's a defining struggle of our moment in time. We're all complicit in global capitalism and imperialism. We are all implicated in the crimes of our government and of our communities. We are living in a country that was stolen and then built up on unimaginable brutality. And the decision to not think about these things, to not do anything about these things, to not address these injustices, is so seldom seen or confronted as a decision at all. I wanted to come to grips with that because it's something that I try to spend my life working on, and.

[B]

It'S so beautifully done in the novel. I mean, you really see the suffering and the misery and this sort of selfishness. Right. That can just devastate people's lives when they. Not to decide.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's something that I would compare to my experience with really severe depression. I was depressed probably from the age of 15 or 16 into my mid-20s. And I would say there was a lot of that period that I. I think a lot of that suffering was understandable, but there were also periods where I huddled inside of it and did not want to do the hard work of getting better because it was frightening. And I knew how to be depressed and how to keep sort of barely functioning. And as a result, you know, I was placing strain on the people I love, and I was straining my community. And fortunately, I was able to get some help and to do some growing up and enter a space in my life where I could give as well as need and take.

[B]

Yeah, that really resonates for me with my experience of, like, coming to terms with, like, being fat and the sort of, like.

[C]

Yes, right.

[B]

This sort of, like, unbelievable selfishness and smallness of. Of weight loss and just not dealing with, like, the real problem. Right. And trying to escape it by becoming acceptable, you know, to. To whoever. Otherwise.

[C]

Yeah, no, it's a. It's a. It's a nightmarish segment of our society. And. And there's just a little bit of that in Black Flame. You know, Ellen's mother is very thin and is constantly commenting on her children's weight.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I love how you connect this. This way of thinking about weight with so many other ways in which we sort of repress ourselves and others and the way we focus on things that are supposedly within our control. Instead of, like, doing anything that might alleviate suffering, we sort of plunge into it.

[C]

Thank you. I've very seldom seen people who are even willing to entertain the idea that maybe some people are happy being fat or prefer being fat.

[B]

Yes. Okay, so this leads really nicely into one of my last questions, which is one of the things I just love about your text and about you is that you give us these characters who, as you've described elsewhere, are like fat smoke shows. Right. These characters who aren't necessarily supposed to be good representation, but instead are just really sexy, interesting fat people. So, yeah, I'm wondering if you can talk about the fat smoke show in this book. In my estimation, Rachel Feldman.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, everyone who talks to me about having read this book is like, wow, Rachel, you know, just like wolf whistle, bonk, bonk, bonk, Awooga. Which is really what I want. That's what I set out to do, and I'm so glad to have hit it. Yeah, I mean, Rachel represents all of the things that Ellen has suppressed in herself. Ellen is a restricted eater. Rachel is fat and eats whatever she wants. Ellen is a closeted lesbian. Rachel fucks whoever she wants and does whatever she wants. Ellen restores art and no longer has a creative outlet. Rachel writes and makes things, and so she's sort of this. This foil and character who helps Ellen understand that, like, there are other modes of existence.

[B]

I never thought that I would find pastrami, like, sexy, but that scene between Rachel and Ellen at the deli, like, you know, you've done it. Rachel makes everything sexy.

[C]

So many people have talked to me about how horny the sandwich made them, which is just, like, the highest compliment. I'm so glad that everyone is horny about this beautiful woman eating a sandwich. Like, I just think that when you embrace that kind of sensuality and when you admit to yourself that, like, oh, this is, like, earthy and arousing and exciting and eating is an affirmation of being alive and fat women are beautiful and desirable, your life is so much richer and better.

[B]

I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Okay, so my last question is, what are you working on now?

[C]

So I'm actually in the middle of edits on the second draft of my next novel, Chimera, which is about a clan of shapeshifters living in rural New Hampshire who are tearing themselves apart due to generations of infighting and old grudges. And it sort of chronicles their last months.

[B]

I have to say, thank you so much for not making readers wait too long in between books. I'm so glad that you're working on something now so I have something to look forward to.

[C]

I'm only good at, like, three things, so I really have to spend all my time doing them.

[B]

Well, I appreciate it. Thank you so much for being here, Gretchen.

[C]

Oh, thank you, Kendyl. Great questions. Fantastic interview.