Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Kendyl Dineen
Guest: Gretchen Felker-Martin
Book Discussed: Black Flame (Tor Nightfire, 2025)
Date: October 24, 2025

In this episode, Kendyl Dineen interviews acclaimed horror author Gretchen Felker-Martin about her new novel, Black Flame. The novel explores themes of repression, queer identity, and personal transformation through the story of Ellen, a film restorer who uncovers a cursed 1930s queer film amidst her own struggles. Felker-Martin discusses her craft, the politics of her narrative decisions, and the importance of "unlikable" protagonists, as well as broader cultural conversations around violence, sexuality, and representation.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Writing Unlikable Protagonists

[01:42–03:32]

• Ellen Kramer is introduced as the complicated protagonist. Felker-Martin explains her draw toward writing "unlikable" characters:
  • “If I’m going to read about the inner workings of someone’s mind, I would just assume that they not be normal, that I have to work a little to relate to them.” (Felker-Martin, 02:09)
  • Ellen is described as “a mess,” “deeply repressed,” and “making herself suffer horribly," but possessing "a natural generosity" and "a deep want to be of service.”

Queer Histories and the Shadow of Fascism

[03:32–04:58]

• The cursed 1930s film, The Baroness, was created by queer people fleeing Nazi Berlin. Felker-Martin drew this parallel intentionally:
  • “We’re living through it. You know, the parallels are so direct that the only way you can avoid them is through intentional ignorance... It’s happening again to Palestine. It’s ramping up to perhaps happen here some fashion.” (Felker-Martin, 03:56)
• The novel uses historical trauma to comment on present-day politics and oppression.

The Power and Choice of Film

[04:58–06:36]

• Felker-Martin chose film as the central medium because of her personal passion and its narrative power:
  • “I love to watch people work with film. I love to watch that slow, intentional, sensual craftsmanship... I love film. I got my start as a film critic.” (Felker-Martin, 05:20)
  • Film, unlike other media, is “directly communicative” and can subversively convey messages.
  • She highlights the lack of equivalent "protest statuary" and the unique power of film to "record entire actions.”

Research Process

[06:36–07:45]

• Although being a film critic reduced her need for basic research, Felker-Martin engaged deeply with technical aspects:
  • Conversations with Kodak lab employees and a manufacturer of ultrasonic cleaners.
  • Extensive reading about film preservation and historical accidents.
  • “There’s so many decisions involved in how to restore a film and which version you’ll be restoring and what constitutes an original film.” (Felker-Martin, 07:27)

Literary References and Influence

[07:45–09:15]

• The novel references Larry Mitchell’s 1977 book, The Faggots and Their Friends Between Revolutions.
  • This book embodies ongoing resistance and the creation of queer community and culture, even under threat.
  • Felker-Martin expresses a personal connection to “this era of revolutionary queer writing," highlighting the torch-passing through generations of activist struggle.

Sex, Violence, and Power

[09:42–11:02]

• Felker-Martin contrasts the violence of heteronormative romance and broader societal oppression with queer, consensual practices:
  • “We live in a society that is defined by sexual violence… Against this you have queer practices of sadomasochism which fold violence healthily and consensually into the fabric of a community.” (Felker-Martin, 10:20)
  • She frames these acts as intertwined with struggles for bodily and collective liberation.
  • “This is all about liberating our bodies and liberating our communities.”

Indecision as Complicity

[11:02–12:14]

• The novel thematizes the idea that refusing to act is itself a choice:
  • “We are all implicated in the crimes of our government and of our communities… The decision to not think about these things... is so seldom seen or confronted as a decision at all.” (Felker-Martin, 11:27)
  • Felker-Martin compares this with her personal experience of depression and the choice to stay inside suffering, affecting herself and others.

Bodily Autonomy, Fatness, and Representation

[12:14–14:59]

• The discussion turns toward body image and the cultural policing of fatness:
  • Both discuss the personal and social impact of internalized fatphobia and the refusal to accept oneself.
  • Felker-Martin addresses this in Black Flame through the character of Ellen’s thin, judgmental mother and the focus on characters happy to be fat.
  • “I’ve very seldom seen people who are even willing to entertain the idea that maybe some people are happy being fat or prefer being fat.” (Felker-Martin, 14:17)

Fat "Smoke Show" Characters and Sensuality

[14:59–16:47]

• Rachel Feldman, a secondary character, is celebrated for unapologetic fatness, sensuality, and freedom—a foil to Ellen:
  • “Rachel represents all of the things that Ellen has suppressed in herself… Rachel is fat and eats whatever she wants. Ellen is a closeted lesbian. Rachel fucks whoever she wants and does whatever she wants.” (Felker-Martin, 15:20)
  • The now-famous deli scene between Rachel and Ellen is cited:
    • “So many people have talked to me about how horny the sandwich made them, which is just, like, the highest compliment.” (Felker-Martin, 16:14)
  • Affirmation: “Eating is an affirmation of being alive and fat women are beautiful and desirable, your life is so much richer and better.” (Felker-Martin, 16:29)

Upcoming Work

[16:55–17:35]

• Felker-Martin reveals she is editing her next novel, Chimera, about a New Hampshire clan of shapeshifters wracked by family conflict.
  • “I’m only good at, like, three things, so I really have to spend all my time doing them.” (Felker-Martin, 17:29)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If I’m going to read about the inner workings of someone’s mind, I would just assume that they not be normal, that I have to work a little to relate to them."
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [02:09]

• “We’re living through it. You know, the parallels are so direct that the only way you can avoid them is through intentional ignorance.”
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [03:56]

• "We live in a society that is defined by sexual violence... And against this you have queer practices of sadomasochism which fold violence healthily and consensually into the fabric of a community."
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [10:20]

• “The decision to not think about these things... is so seldom seen or confronted as a decision at all.”
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [11:27]

• "[Rachel Feldman] represents all of the things that Ellen has suppressed in herself… Rachel is fat and eats whatever she wants. Ellen is a closeted lesbian. Rachel fucks whoever she wants and does whatever she wants."
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [15:20]

• “So many people have talked to me about how horny the sandwich made them, which is just, like, the highest compliment."
  — Gretchen Felker-Martin, [16:14]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:42] — Introduction of Ellen as a protagonist and on writing unlikable characters
• [03:32] — The historical setting and parallels between past and present fascism
• [05:16] — Why film as the medium, discussion of the power of visual storytelling
• [06:46] — Felker-Martin’s hands-on research process
• [07:45] — Discussion of Larry Mitchell's The Faggots and Their Friends Between Revolutions
• [10:07] — How violence, sex, and liberation interact in the novel
• [11:17] — The refusal to decide as a form of complicity
• [13:17] — Fatness, body image, and their intersections with repression
• [14:59] — The "fat smoke show" character Rachel and sensuality
• [16:55] — Felker-Martin teases her next novel, Chimera

Final Thoughts

This episode offers an insightful, compelling look into both Felker-Martin’s creative process and the cultural stakes of her fiction. Listeners get not only a preview of Black Flame’s major characters and themes, but also a broader meditation on the intersection of history, politics, sexuality, and bodily autonomy—told in Felker-Martin’s characteristic candid, unflinching voice. The conversation is rich with personal and political resonance, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in contemporary queer horror, body politics, and the narrative potential of "unlikable" characters.