Grizzly Man

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: New Books Network — Grizzly Man (June 22, 2026)

Overview

In this episode of New Books Network, hosts Mike and Dan Moran dive deeply into Werner Herzog’s acclaimed 2005 documentary Grizzly Man. The discussion orbits around the enigmatic life and tragic death of Timothy Treadwell, a man who famously lived among Alaska’s grizzly bears, capturing hundreds of hours of videotape in pursuit of both communion and purpose. The hosts dissect Herzog’s methodology, Treadwell’s psychology, and what the film ultimately reveals about human nature, performance, and the lure of the wild. The tone is analytical, occasionally wry, and always probing—with both hosts grappling with the film’s ethical ambiguities and philosophical underpinnings.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Central Enigma: Who Was Timothy Treadwell?

• Citizen Kane Parallel (02:08)
  • Dan compares Grizzly Man's central question—"Who is this man?"—to the riddle at the heart of Citizen Kane.
  • Quote: "Who is Timothy Treadwell? ...it's very slippery. And it's hard to get your arms around it. That's what makes it a good documentary." — Dan (02:21)
• Comparison to 'Into the Wild' (02:44)
  • The hosts note similarities to Jon Krakauer’s Into the Wild: an outsider with romantic ideals about nature, confronting the harsh realities of wilderness.

2. Subjectivity and the 'Other Mind' Problem

• Thomas Nagel's 'What is it like to be a bat?' (03:11)
  • Dan brings in the famous philosophical essay, underscoring Timothy’s attempt to cross into the animal experience—a “failed werewolf story.”
  • Quote: "Treadwell thinks he knows what it's like to be a bear... that's his fatal flaw." — Dan (04:02)
• Performance versus Authentic Experience (13:04)
  • Mike and Dan debate whether Timothy’s love for the bears—and much of his persona—is genuine or performative.
  • Observations about Timothy's attention to his appearance and repeated declarations of love suggest a yearning for identity.

3. Romanticization and Its Limits

• Late Night Appearances & Media Image (05:16)
  • Mike observes that Herzog includes Treadwell's Letterman interviews to signal the film isn’t a simple romantic portrait of a wild man.
  • Quote: "There’s a kind of a slippery slope that someone as talented as Werner Herzog would never fall down, which would be to romanticize Timothy Treadwell." — Mike (05:36)
• Herzog’s Perspective vs. Treadwell’s (Various)
  • Herzog’s film is careful not to lionize or demonize Treadwell, constantly forcing viewers to reconsider their judgments.

4. The Macabre, the Grotesque, and Audience Culpability

• The Draw of Disaster and Morbidity (08:25)
  • Mike notes the cultural popularity of true crime and “murder podcasts,” connecting it to the fascination with Treadwell’s fate.
  • Quote: "It's like, yes, he's grizzly for you to come here. He has a grizzly end. But there's something grisly in you to see it." — Mike (09:04)
• Herzog's Framing as Self-Reflection (10:05)
  • By showing both harrowing and tender moments, Herzog never lets viewers rest easy—mirroring Timothy’s own discomfort.

5. Performance and Delusion

• Key Scene – “My Hair” (09:56)
  • Dan points out small on-camera behaviors, like Timothy fussing over his hair, as windows into his need to narrate and control his persona.
  • Quote: "...to what extent is Treadwell’s love for the bears or his whole thing... performative? It strikes me that there’s a lot of that going on there." — Dan (10:15)
• Self-Appointed Guardian Role (11:35)
  • Timothy’s repeated claims of protecting the bears are critiqued; the hosts note the bears don’t actually need him, raising questions of purpose and self-invention.

6. Herzog’s Artistic Choices

• Herzog as Omnipresent Artist/Participant (15:45)
  • Herzog inserts himself as both author and witness, adding layers to both the documentary and the act of watching.
  • Quote: "He also is allowing us to watch him do it." — Mike (16:02)
• Handling the Tape of Treadwell’s Death (17:12)
  • Rather than playing Treadwell’s final, horrific audio, Herzog films his own reaction—demonstrating restraint and refusing to turn the documentary into a snuff film.
  • Quote: "The only way...for us to experience what Treadwell went through is through the filter of Werner Herzog." — Mike (17:52)
  • Quote: "If he did play it, even if you are morbidly curious...it would be too much like a snuff film." — Dan (18:34)

7. Structure and the Early Revelation of Tragedy

• Subverting Documentary Conventions (19:45)
  • Dan notes that most filmmakers would end with the climax (Treadwell’s death), but Herzog reveals it early, shifting the film’s focus.
  • Quote: "It avoids making the movie tendentious...he doesn't have a bumper sticker." — Dan (23:16)
• Audience Discomfort and Culpability (20:47)
  • Mike posits that knowing Treadwell’s fate up front implicates the viewer and undermines passive voyeurism.
  • Quote: "I think that our discomfort is part of the ploy." — Mike (20:47)

8. Nature, Meaning, and Love

• Interpretation and Indifference of Nature (24:28)
  • Mike and Dan agree that nature itself is indifferent; meaning arises from subjective human experience, which Treadwell tries (and fails) to project onto the bears.
  • Quote: "Only humans are interesting, right? ...it’s the interpretive act of the brain is like the act of creation." — Mike (24:28)
• Anthropomorphism and Universal Longing (25:11)
  • The hosts reflect that Treadwell’s deep need for belonging is less about nature and more about the universal human desire for connection—even if misdirected.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dan Moran:

  • "An alternative title for this movie... would be Diary of a Failed Werewolf.” (04:02)
  • “He’s like the Rupert Pupkin of...the animal world. He decides he’s this thing and...his delusion is gonna carry forward.” (12:18)

• Mike:

  • “You cannot come see this movie and pretend like you're not a little bit interested in that side of things.” (07:59)
  • “It's almost like watching somebody in the bathroom... the thing on this tripod, to invade his privacy and his discomfort with himself to a...an uncomfortable degree.” (13:04)
  • “Herzog cannot help but be a character in this documentary.” (15:45)
  • “The only way for us to experience what Treadwell went through is through the filter of Werner Herzog.” (17:52)

• Key Segments by Timestamp:

  • 02:08 — Dan’s opening take; Citizen Kane, ‘other minds’
  • 05:16 — Herzog’s approach vs. romanticizing Treadwell
  • 08:25 — True crime culture, audience fascination
  • 09:56 — “My hair” scene; performance & delusion
  • 13:04 — Mike: Treadwell’s self-invasion via the camera
  • 15:45 — Herzog’s dual role in his documentaries
  • 17:12 — The ethical choice not to play Treadwell’s death audio
  • 20:47 — Why Herzog reveals Treadwell’s fate early
  • 24:28 — Only human subjectivity brings meaning

---

Conclusion

Mike and Dan’s conversation emphasizes that Grizzly Man is neither a simple animal documentary nor a mere spectacle of tragedy. Instead, Herzog’s film is celebrated for its refusal to provide comfort or easy answers—probing the murky waters between humanity, delusion, identity, and nature’s cold indifference. Treadwell becomes an emblem of both profound yearning and perilous hubris. Herzog, ever the philosopher-filmmaker, provides a mirror not just for his subject but for audiences drawn to the limits of self-experience and the dark edge of fascination.

---

Hosts’ Recommendations:

• Read Dan’s further thoughts at Pages and Frames on Substack
• Mike continues the discussion at The Grumbler’s Almanac

---

This summary captures the episode’s depth, rewards close reading, and can stand in for the rich, discursive experience of the full podcast.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

You have one new message translating. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers is now available on Disney.

[Dan Moran]

You could say that again.

[Commercial Announcer]

Critics are calling it Pixar's funniest movie ever and a wildly entertaining ride. Blizzard potato. It's certified fresh and verified hot.

[Dan Moran]

Now we party.

[Promotional Voice]

This is incredible.

[Sponsor Voice]

Wow.

[Dan Moran]

I am clearing the rest of the day.

[Commercial Announcer]

Disney and Pixar's Hoppers now available on Disney. Rated PG.

[Student Offer Announcer]

Study and play. Play come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn [e-mail] studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30, terms at aka mscollegepc.

[Palmolive Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9% of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop [e-mail]

[Mike]

welcome to the new Books Network. Hi, I'm Mike.

[Dan Moran]

And I'm Dan.

[Mike]

If you've been listening to the podcast, you know how this works. I picked another Werner Herzog for this week. Dan, what are we doing?

[Dan Moran]

Grizzly Man.

[Mike]

I couldn't help myself. I said, we have to do Grizzly Man. We did Werner Herzog. It's on Criterion. Let's do it. Dan, I think you'd seen the movie before, but still, since I picked it, you gotta go first and give your overall impression. So what is your overall impression of Werner Herzog's grizzly man from 2005?

[Dan Moran]

Well, I had seen it a few times, actually, and I watched it again for the podcast today. And you know, it's a great movie. So the world doesn't need us to say this is a great movie or why. We'll just talk about what we think about it. So what I love about this movie, my overall take is this. You know when Citizen Kane at his birthday party, they sing that song, who is this man? You know, who is this man? And that's what Citizen Kane is about. And it's what a lot of movies And a lot of books are about. So I think that's a question that naturally comes up when you watch this is who is this man? Who is Timothy Treadwell? Like, what. What is your take supposed to be on this guy? And the fact that it's very slippery. And it's hard to get your arms around it is what makes it a good documentary. It's very much like into the Wild, the book by Jon Krakow. You know that book?

[Mike]

Oh, yes.

[Dan Moran]

Yeah. So it's very much like that in terms of, like, you know, what are you supposed to think about this guy who had this romantic interest in nature, also in Alaska, but who finds out that, you know, nature is red in tooth and claw? The other thing I thought when I watched it today was that there's a great essay by a philosopher named Thomas Nagel. Came out in 1974. Called what it Is like to Be a Bat. Do you know this essay?

[Mike]

Yes.

[Dan Moran]

You do? Wow. That's great. Okay, so it's all about the unknowable subjective experience of another mind, right? So in philosophy, there's a thing called the problem of other minds. Like, you know, you and I both know what it's like to be a person. But we can't get 100% into each other's heads. Like, I can't see the world the way you do. Right. So what if you took an extreme example, like a bat, right? And you can't comprehend the world through elocution. Right? We kind of think like a dog kind of sees the world the way we do. But that's because we anthropomorphize the dog. The way the dog's sense of smell works is totally unknowable to us. Right? And a bat's another extreme example. So I think what's cool about this movie is that I thought about the Thomas Nagel essay. Because Treadwell thinks he knows what it's like to be a bear. The pilot says at one point, you know, these aren't people in bear costumes, like, the way Yogi Bear is or a bear in a Disney movie. But that's kind of how he approaches these animals. But the whole point of the movie, or at least much of the movies. How dead wrong he is that they're not like that. There's all this evidence that the bears don't want him around. And that he's not one of them. But he really, really wants to be one. And that's his fatal flaw. An alternative title for this movie. I thought if I had a mark market, it would Be. I mean, Grizzly Man's the best title would be Diary of a Failed Werewolf. Right. Because that's what, you know, in every werewolf movie, the man becomes the beast and gets to live out these fantasies and these beast like things. And then he goes back to being a man. And that's not always pleasant, but that's kind of what it's about. He wants so badly to be one of these things, but he can't. And you know, you're not just supposed to sit there and scorn the guy, you're supposed to sympathize with him in a lot of ways. But to me, that's fundamentally what it's about, is he wants to cross over to the subject, subjective experience of something else. Because for whatever reason we'll get into his life wouldn't cut it. He tries to be the Aussie guy with the fake accent. He had a path with drugs and booze and guns. So this was going to be kind of like his path to sobriety and to something better. But you couldn't do it. You can't do it.

[Mike]

Yeah, there's no way that this movie's about bears. One of the things that interested me is that Werner Herzog includes one of the clips of Timothy Treadwell on David Letterman. You know, when he did the. He kind of did the scene of late night and interviews and stuff when he started to get famous.

[Dan Moran]

And he was the wacky bear guy.

[Mike]

And he was the wacky bear guy. And those conversations are about bear. So in other words, there's a kind of a slippery slope that someone as talented as Werner Herzog would never fall down, which would be to romanticize Timothy Treadwell. And I think the beauty of this movie is that Werner Herzog shows those late night clips so that you know right away that that's not what this movie is going to be. You may remember him from the late 90s. You may have seen some of those clips, you may actually know who he is. But that's not what this is going to be. And I also think that it's just so beautiful that this fell into Werner Herzog's medium. Because you couldn't imagine a better person where you're like, I have 100 hours. It's all on videotape. It's not well cataloged. Somebody has to sit and go through it. So imagine you have to watch 300 Hours, because you'd have to watch every hour at least three times to actually know what's on it. And it's like out of that, I have to assemble a portrait of a person while also definitely exploring humanity. Like, the title is not like Grizzly Man. It's not about a man bear. It's about Grizzly Man. Like, what is wrong with us? What is wrong with him? And whatever's wrong with him is wrong with us. You know, last week we talked about the enigma of Casper Hauser, and I take it that this movie is definitely the enigma of Timothy Treadwell. And he never lets it go too far in any direction. I mean, when he allows Timothy to talk about his own romantic ideals, he immediately pops that bubble. But then you say, okay, he was just some crazy guy, and it's like, no, now let's see him with children. And then you see him with children, and it's like, okay, here's him harassing a fox. You're like, okay, here's him harassing fox. Here's him with his girlfriend. So he never allows you to be comfortable in Timothy's skin, which I think is a reflection of Timothy not being comfortable in his own skin. And it's kind of like a gem or something that each facet catches the light. And Herzog just seems to enjoy turning it around and around and around and around. But of course, this entire exercise is almost unspeakably macabre. And I think that that's one of the things that he enjoys. Like, you cannot come see this movie and pretend like you're not a little bit interested in that side of things. And as we'll get into, he continually dips his toe into the horror and inevitable horror of Timothy Treadwell's fate. I mean, I don't know about you, but I certainly know a lot of people now in 2026 whose I would say their primary interest or focus from a documentary or podcast perspective is not 15 minute film fanatics. Their first mistake. But are you familiar with the term murder podcast?

[Dan Moran]

Yeah, sure.

[Mike]

So, like, there's a murder podcasting community, and it's a community of people. They just like to hear about other people that got killed or disappeared, you know, in the 80s, 90s or recent. And they find that titt for whatever reason, but if you confront them about it, they're like, no, man, it's just kind of like, it's just kind of interesting. And you're like, no, no, that's how, like, that's how actual serial killers practice. Like, you're like, you just don't have it in you to be one of them, but you're tiddling that same part of your brain. And I think Werner herzog is calling us out as well. I think that's why it's Grizzly Man. It's like, yes, he's grizzly for you to come here. He has a grizzly end. But there's something grisly in you to see it. And he definitely is admitting that there's something grisly in him to sit through 300 hours of this footage and assemble this portrait.

[Dan Moran]

G R I S L Y To put a. To put a little note on that before we Finish Up Part 1. You mentioned that this just fell into Herzog's lap. And it's. You know, it's a skilled maker of documentaries and feature films, but certainly of documentaries. That. That was just like a. Like a great thing of chance. Because imagine if a feature film director and studio got their hands on this, right? You could imagine, you know, what would happen.

[Mike]

John Penn is.

[Dan Moran]

No, they would get. Tom Hanks is. And you can imagine what would it be like if Tom Hanks played Timothy.

[Mike]

Welcome back. In Part two, we always talk about our big key scenes. Dan, what do you got?

[Dan Moran]

So you mentioned before that this movie's kind of like a gem. And you keep turning it around and keep getting. Because we want to kind of vote on the guy like we do, like, with people that we know during our regular.

[Mike]

So we can put him away and be comfortable.

[Dan Moran]

Right? And be comfortable. Right. We want to put him in a box. And of course, if you could, then the movie would fail. Then there's no reason to talk about it. You would just get the answer. It'll be like, you know, like an Agatha Christie mystery. And this is the opposite of that. So my moment is something really tiny. And it's a moment where he's making one of his videotapes and he has the tripod set up, but he's about to do the thing and he goes, oh, wait a minute, my hair. And he fixes his hair. And I thought to myself, that's really interesting because the whole thing is supposed to be, I'm out there on the grizzly mix. Wait, my hair. And we know that he did multiple takes. We get to see him do multiple takes of these. And I'm not making fun of him for doing that. He wants to send out the best vision of his project to the world. But when he said my hair, it articulated for me something that kept gnawing at me watching it this. And it was this. To what extent is Treadwell's love for the bears or his whole thing of being the grizzly man performative? It strikes me that there's a lot of that going on there. And I kept noticing that every time he said I love you to the fox, every time he says I love you, I love you, I love you. It's almost like, you know, the grizzly man doth, doth love too much. Me thinks when he has his hands over. Over Ginger's poop the bear and he's like, this was inside of her. This was inside of her. Isn't that wonderful? It's like he's trying like one millimeter too hard. And then I kept pushing that to myself and I kept thinking like, well, we're all performative as we go through our day to some extent, right? But it's like this is a movie about a guy who wants to be somebody, right? Like he says he, he makes himself the self appointed guardian of the bears. He keeps talking about I have to protect the. I have to guard. He uses the words protect and guard all the time. And all I kept thinking every time he said that was protect them from who? Protect them from what? They're in the national park. He talks about poachers. We get one scene, we get that one sequence with the guys that leave the smiley face rock. And they're photographers more than they're poachers, right? So these bears don't need him to protect them. But he kind of like decided that. Then he keeps saying, I want to study them, I want to study them. But he's not a biologist. I mean, he just goes, he's just a guy who wants to be the grizzly man. And again, he wanted to be this Aussie guy. He seems like he wanted to create a character for himself. And eventually that character kind of takes over. So when he has his on camera hissy fit about the Park Service and he's like, Animals rule F the National Parks. The National Park Service, as Herzog says, has two very reasonable rules, right? They say you have to keep moving your tent and don't go within 100ft of the bears, right? They make perfect sense. And the more this guy appoints himself the guardian of the bears, he's not helping the bears. He doesn't help them by anthropomorphizing them. And he's like the Rupert Pumpkin of, you know, the animal world. He's just like Rupert Pupkin in the King of Comedy. He's decided he's this thing and he's gonna. And his delusion is gonna carry forward and carry forward. And the movie's about what that does

[Mike]

to him in some ways. It's like catching him on a hot mic. What happened was that he recorded these for himself and then he was gonna edit it. And so anything that you see was not fit for other people's consumptions. Like, and it's almost too much. It's almost like watching somebody in the bathroom, you know, or watching somebody totally. There's something grotesque, not just about his performance, but he has allowed this, the thing on this tripod, to invade his privacy and his discomfort with himself to a. An uncomfortable degree. But I think part of Herzog's point is that when somebody goes that far off the edge, it's like anything with the grotesque. The beautiful thing about the grotesque is his delusions may be more grotesque than your delusions, but they are certainly made of the same thing. Oh, sure, right. No matter what we are or no matter what we partake of, it does not need us. Like, there are many beautiful things in life. Like, we love movies, you know, I mean, we could tell ourselves that we are protecting the movies, but protecting them from what? Everybody loves the same movies that we do.

[Dan Moran]

Right?

[Mike]

What am I gonna. What does my opinion. Like, I may have a great take as Mike on Babette's Feast, which I do, but, like, does that make Babette's Feast even one iota better? But I have to. I have to claim something for myself that is about me.

[Commercial Announcer]

Right?

[Dan Moran]

And that's so funny, right? Like, nobody out there has ever been. Have you, have you, have you heard what Dan Moran said about Godfather 2? I think I'm going to give that movie another watch.

[Mike]

Yeah. He might have been sitting next to you on the bus accidentally or standing behind you or read any of your texts.

[Dan Moran]

But yeah. So his delusion is obviously an exaggeration of all of our delusions because we all kind of. We all kind of do that to some extent.

[Student Offer Announcer]

So good. So good.

[Promotional Voice]

So good.

[Nordstrom Rack Announcer]

New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to 60 off brands like Rag and Bone, Levi's, Adidas and free people. Join the Nordiclub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.

[Sponsor Voice]

This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability various 18 plus.

[Dan Moran]

So what's your moment?

[Mike]

I just Hertzog cannot help but be a character in this documentary. I mean, there are many documentarians who are able to keep themselves out of their documentary, right? And so what they are is the organizing consciousness. But all of his documentaries have two layers. One is where he's the organizing consciousness and the other is where he is always a participant in the world of the documentary. You know, my best fiend, Any of his other documentaries, including Werner Herzog Eats His Shoe, all of the different documentaries that he's made have him as a participant. And then he steps in front of the camera. And I think part of the reason he does that is to take pressure off the Werner Herzog that makes decisions. He also is allowing us to watch him do it.

[Dan Moran]

And the movie does a really cool thing of convincing you that you're watching it unfold in the real time, not of the story, but of the cause. Of course, the last thing that happens is he dies. And we learned that early on. It doesn't get unfold in terms of the story. The illusion is that it's being unfolded as Herzog is discovering the things. So I'm sure one of your other favorite moments is when he listens to the recording. And that's in the middle. Right? And so you want to hear that before, you talked about Grizzly man. And the audience is kind of like, there's a lot of people who watch this who are like, is he going to play any of it? Like, are we going to hear that over the end credits? Like, when are we going to hear the tape? But he kind of brings you right to the edge there and kind of teases you with it.

[Mike]

Well, and what he does is just such a beautiful emblem of the entire movie because as you said, he's caught in this conundrum, which is I've spent the entire movie talking about it. So to not do anything is to chicken out. But if I do it, I tip this so far over the edge into the grotesque that not even my regular audience will be able to follow me. The anti like Tom Hanks is going too far this way. The way to go too far the other way is just to play his screams while he's literally eviscerated, you know, by these animals that he claimed to love. And so he does the only thing he can do, which is that he has the camera film him listening to it while he reacts and then starts sobbing, which makes the other lady start sobbing. Then he does the thing like, you must never listen to these tapes. So the only way, like, to get back to your thing about that you can't be a bat or subjective experience. The only way for us to experience what Treadwell went through is through the filter of Werner Herzog. And essentially, he's trying to show that that's what real art is about or that's what real art can do. It takes something that your system cannot metabolize because it's too complicated. But the artist is like the reader or the watcher or the receiver of their art in that they are able to receive it in a way that allows us to receive it.

[Dan Moran]

Right? And that's great. And that's also how he avoids. Because if he did play it, even if you are morbidly curious as a viewer, it. It would be too much like a snuff film.

[Mike]

It's a snuff film.

[Dan Moran]

It will be a snuff film. Right? And that's, of course, that's a lot of the. That's the appeal of murder podcast or something, is that, like, if you. If you're making a murder podcast and you have that tape, you're going to play it because you want to. You want more hits and you want more. More, you know, stuff going on on YouTube. But he, like, he gets to have his cake and eat it, too. And that's. That's like a great artistic move there. Welcome back. In Part three, we always talk about the title or the ending. Now, we talked about the title a lot. I think we covered that in Part one, but I want to talk about the ending. And, Mike, I want to do this in the form of a question. I'm going to throw a question at you. And here we go. And this is a question I thought to myself, and I have a take on the answer, but I'm interested to hear what you're going to say. The traditional documentary that would have been made in an alternate universe, right? Would have been cut differently, and it would have started and it would have gone like many other documentaries, which is that you set up somebody, you set up a situation, you go with it for a while, and then something goes sideways and the documentarians, like, happen to be there. And there's a lot of really good movies that are like that, right? So the traditional structure of the documentary would have been you watch the Letterman clips, you see him with the little kids, you learn about his life, you get those things with his parents and his Father with the flip up sunglasses inside the house. We get all those scenes. And then of course, in Act 3, what do we learn?

[Mike]

That he's eaten by bears.

[Dan Moran]

Right. That we learn that the bears eat him.

[Mike]

Right.

[Dan Moran]

But I think it's really interesting that Herzog tells us, if you have no idea, and you could watch this movie not knowing who he was, but he lets you know, like pretty soon into the movie that him and his girlfriend, right, were both killed by the bears. We learned that his girlfriend wanted to leave but went back with him. Right. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time. So the question is, why would Herzog tell us so early in the movie that he was eaten by the bears? Right. How does it change our experience of watching it? Because I think a less imaginative director, that would have been a great punchline, that would have been the actor. Aha, the bears eat him. What do you make of the order in which we're told that?

[Mike]

I think that our discomfort is part of the ploy. You know, I mean, he's. He's never made a traditional documentary, so you could just say that that's, that's his fingerprints all over it. But I think part of this is to get ourselves out of our comfortable positions as viewers. I mean, the movie is Nabokovian in the sense that if you stay in your seat and you watch this through and I tell you what's going on, then don't look at me like I'm grotesque. I think it's part of the audience's culpability to know what's happening and to sit there. Which is again, exactly like the murder podcast. You know what I mean? You can't listen to a murder podcast and then say, man, I wish I hadn't heard that. It's like, it's in the title. I think that it's less about a diagnosis on the part of the documentarian. I don't think the point we're all supposed to walk away with is like. And we're all making our own documentary to some degree. I don't think that that's what Werner Herzog has in mind. I think he is interested in the grotesqueries of the human position. I think all of the characters that he seems interested in. If you watch his movies, if you watch Nosferatu, if you watch Fitzcarraldo, if you watch Aguero, Wrath of God, if you watch Grizzly man, if you watch the Enigma of Casper Hauser, they have what Heidegger called throne ness to a grotesque degree. You know, you don't choose your circumstances, we're all thrown into life. And then essentially someone says action and then, and then you're forced to do your thing. And so I think that he is modeling thrown ness for the audience. Which is, which is exactly like Tim Treadwell's discomfort with himself, with his own life, with his thoughts, with his misunderstanding of his own character to a place that feels secure. I think we can all agree that Timothy Treadwell at some point in front of the camera thought I found my niche in life. Or maybe he was sitting there on Letterman and he thought I found my niche in life.

[Dan Moran]

I'm the grizzly man.

[Mike]

And he didn't know. And I think that we, if you watch documentaries about any horrible thing that happens to anybody in their life, right, they say well I thought I had it made. I thought I had things understood, right? Betrayal is the thing that shakes the ground underneath your feet, you know. And so I think we are supposed to have our feet shaken and then to also choose to take the ride.

[Dan Moran]

Telling us early what's going to happen to Treadwell when we talk to the pilot and things like that. First of all, it avoids making the movie tendentious and having some big thing at the end where aha. See the bears don't love you, right? But it also, it occurred to me watching helps the viewer, a first time viewer and an unknown viewer who doesn't know who tread will is. It helps that person avoid doing what Treadwell did. Because imagine if you did watch him throughout the first two acts and being friends with the bears and with the fox. He said give me my hat back. When you put, you could put on some like, you know, you know, Disney music in the background. You could do all that and then you could have aha. And that would be just like then, then aha. See that's my point. But he doesn't have like, he doesn't have a bumper sticker. I mean he tells you, Herzog tells you a couple times, like you know what he says? When I look at all the faces of the bears, I can't do the accent. But he says I see no understanding, no mercy. I just see the overwhelming indifference of nature. To me there's no such thing as a secret world of the bears. And this blank stare speaks only of a half bored interest in food. And so I think that's showing us right in the beginning he's like let's get this out of the way because this is not going to be some kind of tale about not to mess with the environment or something.

[Mike]

No, it's all about. Only humans are interesting, right? The thing that brings interest to the world is subjective experience. Otherwise actually the universe is just a floating series of molecules. It's the interpretive act of the brain is like the act of creation and that's what it means for the bears. Timothy Treadwell does not fail to get the bears to love him. Bears are not capable of love. They don't love each other. They don't love themselves. Only he is capable of love or affection, no matter how misdirected. And so that's, I think, what makes him interesting. That's what makes him a grizzly man.

[Dan Moran]

And no matter how wrong he is in thinking that he has the, he keeps saying things like, I have the respect. This is what I do. And you know, he's trying to speak, but he's trying to use human language. He's trying to use language period, which bears don't have to articulate what's going on. And that's a very like understandable thing to do. Like we all say that like, you know, my dog's mad at me, oh, that cat doesn't like me or she's a friend. Like, like, you know, he's, he's doing what the bears, what we all do with animals. But he actually kind of like believes his own press. Thanks for listening everybody. We hope you enjoyed our conversation about grizzly Man. If you want to read more about the movie, you can read the write up on Substack. I'm at Pages and frames. How about you, Mike?

[Mike]

The Grumbler's Almanac.

[Dan Moran]

Thanks for listening. Let us know what we should watch next.

[Promotional Voice]

Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and learn about our associate degree in nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington. Edu Sci.