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Hannah Pool, "The Game: The Economy of Undocumented Migration from Afghanistan to Europe" (Oxford UP, 2025)
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- [00:04]
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- [00:57]
Marshall Poe
Everybody, this is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [02:04]
Arman Childes
Hi everyone, my name is Arman Childes and this is the New Books Network. I had the great pleasure of hosting Hannah Pool today to talk about her book the the Economy of Undocumented Migration from Afghanistan to Europe that came very recently from Oxford University Press. Welcome to the New Books Network, Hannah.
- [02:24]
Hannah Pool
Hi Amanj. It's lovely to be here.
- [02:27]
Arman Childes
And I mean, I think everyone should know this. Hannah is also a new books network host. So it's really nice to have you and have this opportunity to interview you and to put you on the other side.
- [02:40]
Hannah Pool
Yes, it is definitely interesting to sit on the other side and not know the questions before.
- [02:47]
Arman Childes
And before we start with the book, can you tell us a bit about yourself?
- [02:52]
Hannah Pool
Sure. My name is Hannah Pool and I'm a senior researcher at the Max Planck Institute of the Study of SOC is based in Germany in Cologne. And yeah, I'm an economic sociologist and I'm really interested in how humans move within their countries, across borders and why they move, be it because they can't stay in a place due to war, conflict, or be it because climate change changes the habitability of the spaces where they are at. And in all of this, I'm also very interested in looking how money affects the way we move.
- [03:33]
Arman Childes
And I mean it really. All these topics come across very strongly in your book. How did you come to this topic? And what is the game?
- [03:46]
Hannah Pool
Thank you. Two big questions. Let me start with the first one. How did this book actually come into the world? And as with many research topics, this was never intended to become a research project. In the very first moment between 2014 and 15, I had a scholarship to study in Iran. And that was the time of the JCPOA negotiations. And I was one of the very first students from Europe to be admitted to Iran. And being in Iran during this time, I was not only allowed to learn Farsi, but also a lot about Iranian history, society, geography. And I also learned that In Iran, over 3.5 approximately million Afghans are living, many of them undocumented, some documented. And then life unfolded. I became close, close, close friends with someone who's called Panya in the book. And just how friendships are, you kind of start to entangle your lives with each other. You share small segments of your life and they become bigger. You get introduced to families, you start to attend birthday parties, weddings, life and through Panya, I lear and more just about the political situation of Afghans in Iran. In June 2015, I returned back to Germany. I was still an undergraduate student. And this coincided with something that now, in hindsight, 10 years later, is often called a political moment that some would claim changed the way Europe sees itself. It definitely changed a lot in the legal landscape of Europe, and that was that by the summer of 2015, the situation, especially in Syria and in refugee camps around Syria, had become so dire that more and more people tried to get to Europe in order to seek asylum. And for the safety, security and livelihoods. And I arrived back in Germany and within the first couple of days I got a call and I was asked whether I could work or volunteer more as a trans translator for Farsi because someone had told someone that someone else knew that by then I had gained the C1 level of advanced Farsi speaker. And I was in a small town where there were very few Farsi speakers. So I got this call and I was asked whether I could translate because just on that day, 200 people from Afghanistan, Iran had arrived in this makeshift camp. And when I got the call, I was so surprised because in this German town it was unimaginable that people from Afghanistan and Iran would actually arrive. For me, this was so hard to imagine. And I arrived and from that day on I started translating for people who had just arrived in Germany to seek asylum. And I think from that, from the time that I spent in Iran, from Panya and her family, from hearing in early 2004, 2015 for the first time that people were actually thinking about leaving, escaping Afghanistan or Ibrahim, to the summer when actually people had arrived. So much change. But of course this is only in hindsight, in the moment, all of this was not imaginable for me. Two years later it did become an actual PhD topic to research the trajectories from Afghanistan and Iran to Germany. And I returned first to Iran and then to Turkey, Greece and along the so called Balkan route. And he asked me what the game is. The game actually is the term that at that very time, so between 2016, 17 up to now, to some extent, Afrons themselves used for this route. So it's not actually the game, but it's gamezadan, which is like a verb. You really have to see it as a verb, as it can be used in a sentence. And game zadan means to do the game, to try the game, to beat the game, to be on the game. And it really defines doing this trajectory by foot, by passes, by hiding, moving across borders, all with the aim to first escape Iran and Afghanistan, where women and human rights are so strongly neglected, with the aim to seek asylum, to start a life that has a form of security and safety. And yeah, this game Zadan was really omnipresent. And when someone would say I, I am game Zidane, in a way, I am doing the game. Everyone kind of knew about the roots and the dangers. And I thought about it for a very long time if this could be an appropriate title or not. What I like about the term is that it is really what people used themselves. And the moment I introduced the title to Afghan interlocutors, informants, participants, they knew what I meant. But of course, it also has the danger of being misunderstood, and I'm quite aware of that. There's the danger of idealizing something that is so highly difficult and dangerous, of maybe also diminishing it. But, yeah, it stayed with the game. And Geng Zadan is still the term and a lot of other descriptions derived from the game. And you could really use that term in a lot of different. The ways that all express different aspects of the. Of the trajectory that I really like to highlight.
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Arman Childes
No, I mean, I like having read the book. I think it's a very. It's a very. Not only appropriate title, but also, like, creative in the sense that I thought your interlocutors, while talking about it as a game, at once kind of highlighted that you can win and lose. So it's. Well, you know, they talk about game, game over, but at the same time kind of making light of it in order to find the courage to be able to do it. So I. I thought it was. It was, yeah, super interesting. And, I mean, your fieldwork itself is such an impressive fieldwork in the sense that you follow these immigrants on their routes from Afghanistan, Iran to Germany. Can you tell us a bit about that? How was your fieldwork?
- [11:12]
Hannah Pool
Fieldwork means so many things, and for me, logistically, it meant pausing my life, in a way, for a year and moving around with my small, very small black backpack and sometimes not knowing where I would stay that evening, but always being hosted. So it was maybe also the year of being hosted, in a way. I started the research back in Iran with the aim of talking to people who aspired to leave, but also those who maybe had returned or those who stay behind. So I had a lot of conversation with elderly, with mothers, with those who saw their family members leave over the last years. And then what I hoped, but what I didn't expect was that also I did talk to people who were thinking about leaving soon. However, field research and ethnography is something you cannot really plan. I mean, of course, you prepare. You have your ethics committee. You kind of imagine how things would unfold, but then reality hits you and everything goes possibly in a different direction. And that is for sure what happened in this field research. I returned to Iran, like I said. I had these conversations with those who stayed behind, and the first week, as many know, wasn't that successful. I felt a lot of stress. Like, I was very worried. Why? And always with this question, why should anyone ever talk to, yes, a Farsi speaking, but with a strong German accent, researcher arriving at their place, talking about one of the most dangerous decisions someone can take in their life. And that is leaving countries that make it so hard to leave, that have brutal human rights records, all of that, to have this hope to have a better future for their children. But I was so surprised because people actually did want to talk to me, but I didn't really get the right access. And then on the first weekend, I decided to take a little break and to go back to my very dear friend Panya and her sisters. And I think that is when in a way, my research life, but also, yeah, I mean, let's be honest, research is also part of it is our life where so much changed. And I remember very well how I arrived at her place and they opened the door and they are seven sisters, but only six were there and the oldest. And in Farsi you say Hamze Neman, like the one in your age. There's a specific term to determine when someone is in the same age. She was gone. And it took a moment until I realized that because there were so many welcomes and kisses and hugs and welcome and tears and the joy of seeing each other again after year. And then I asked where Zamira, as she's called in the book, the name she wanted to have for herself, where she is. And suddenly it was silent. And then they said, hannah, John, we need to tell you something. She actually left. She is doing the game. And I had never, never imagined that knowing the family, knowing the girls, knowing our friendship, also knowing the dangerous situation their lives were in, but never thinking that one of them would actually do the game and less so to do it alone. As a woman like Hamze Neman, she was my age and had just taken this very brave but also very dangerous decision. And then the other thing was that the family hadn't heard from her since it was two weeks that she had left by then. And yeah, no one knew really where she was. The root of the game was very clear to everyone, but not where she was actually at. I then continued the research in Iran, of course, being very worried about her. And I had this agreement with my institute that I had to come back home between each of the stays. So I didn't do the entire field research in one go. At first I didn't want to do it that way, but in hindsight I think it was a very smart decision also because I had a two week break between each of the countries where I actually Went back, saved my data, did a first round of coding, filled my field research notes wherever I had some gaps, already kind of checked and repacked, and then had my little black backpack and then go back. My next stage of the trajectory was actually Turkey, where I was from January to April 2019. And again, life kind of unfolded. I did a lot of interviews in Turkey. Overall, throughout the entire field research, I took notes of conversations with over 380 people. I had 66 recorded interviews with sometimes the same Afghan refugees throughout different stages of their trajectory. But of course, there are these connections that you have with some people that are deeper than with others. With some, it's a transactional interview that you do at different points. And with some, it just becomes that your lives are entangled. And that is how it is for Zamira and me. And again, life was crazier than research can be. And the day I arrived in Istanbul, I had just put down my little black backpack and I got a call on my WhatsApp. And by then, the family still hadn't heard from Semira. No one knew where she was. And it was her. It was really the first call I got. And she had just a few days before, received the chance to get a SIM card, contact her family. And the moment she called, they told her that I will be in Istanbul. And yeah, she had managed her way to go to Istanbul. And she was in the neighborhood that most Afghans are brought to by their rajagbar, their facilitators, in a way. And that was Zayten Bono, which is a neighborhood that is very known, very large neighborhood. And yeah, half an hour later, one and a half hours later, but really on the same day, sprinting right away, we saw each other. And it was then that I really told her about my role, my positions and so on, but also asked her whether she would agree that I, as a researcher, would accompany her route. And she immediately said, yes, of course, like, people need to learn about this. But then she became not only as a friend, but also as an interlocutor, the person who introduced me to so many people and also allowed me to have conversations with Roger Barr, with interlocutors and people who were smuggled together in a group out of this as like one stream of ethnography. And then at the same time, I reached out to other groups, I did other interviews to triangulize, to check fact, to really get deeper into the entire route. But especially in ethnography, it needs these long relationships and this deep trust, because again, at the very Beginning when I was thinking about this research project, I would have never imagined that people would actually open up to me, would speak to me, would speak truthful to me, but also really would host me. And the relationship that I had with participants in many places also meant that they hosted me, that I had a place to stay, that I was given food, that I was really cared for. A lot of ethical questions that arise through that, but through them these connections were possible. And also the data was given to me. So that was the route until Turkey. And after Turkey I then was in Greece for four months. And the main group that I was allowed to follow who call each other and again, this notion of the game is so important. Hum, gay me. Those who do the game together. And this is such a firm description that people use for each other. Just like you would say oh that's my neighbor. And everyone knows oh yeah, neighbor, someone who has a house near to that person. The moment someone says oh that's my humge me, everyone knows, oh that is someone that you did the game with together at one part of your route. And it's a very firm relationship sometimes, sometimes not. I mean you see each other in possibly some of the most dangerous moments of your life. Be it that you are together on a dingy, trying to cross the Mediterranean from Turkey to Greece, be it that you have to cross, cross the mountains together between Iran and Turkey, where Iranian border guards would actively shoot, but also where you would have to walk often through the night for hours or even days, where you can't see where you're stepping on, where you are in a group holding babies, children trying to hush them so they are not loud, where you are arriving, brought in a close van together, driven for hours, you don't see where you are brought to. Or be it that later you are on the so called Balkan route or Balkan circuit as it's now called more, where you try to go through the forests, where you try to navigate through GPS signs, sometimes through snow, sometimes through the heat, where there are wild animals, but also, but I find so gruesome where you are walking through territories where you see from the outside the red and white signs of minefields due to the wars in Yugoslavia in the 1990s. All of this you do together as hum game. And I hope through this description it already becomes so clear that people don't use the term game light heartedly. People know what the game entails, but they also know very certain what they leave behind. And that is in the case of Afghanistan, a country where by now women are taken away all their rights as of last week, also the right to access the Internet. But then also in Iran, where Afghans have been taken away their rights for as long as they are used as cheap labor there as they are in a state of deportability that is being exploited over and over again. And all of this as possibly they are there already for the third generation. So people are very aware why they take the risks of going through this game all to reach Europe, all to reach, in some cases Germany, Finland and so on to seek asylum in the hope that this could give some kind of security over a longer period. Diego Prime Big Deal Days Con grande soferta se cocina la grandesipe del pan Attention, attention. Abrefaso al baron del brioche al visconte del viscocho y alconde de los cuernitos.
- [24:08]
Marshall Poe
Miyambre of the prime Juan.
- [24:15]
Hannah Pool
In Prime Big Deal Days.
- [24:19]
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Hannah Pool
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Arman Childes
And how does money come into this picture? Because it's. I mean it's a work also in economic sociology and. And you really bring together first, I mean how the root itself is affected in a variety of ways by money, but also how social relationships are affected by it. Can you tell us more about that?
- [25:43]
Hannah Pool
Money is fascinating because we all use it every day and then we never think about it. And people think money is money is money. So it's numbers that we exchange with each other. But then we forget that money actually structures and orders also our social relationships. And I am a trained economic sociologist, so I'm always looking at money. I did not expect the extent to which money also structures undocumented Migration. And that starts with the very, maybe almost naive question, how do people who actually have so little money, because they are kept poor structurally in the countries where they are based, how do they, on 2 to 3 USD a month, actually more 1 to 3 USD a month, manage to pay these very high sums that smugglers, but also the entire migration industry takes when they do not have that money at hand? I mean, if there would be a right to seek asylum, as there is, that is for free as it exists, right? It doesn't cost to ask for asylum once you're there, but you can only seek asylum in the EU if you have made it to the EU already. So what happens in this in betweenness, where actually you do not have to the money on hand, but you need to reach it. So using money as a lens to understand this undocumented migration trajectory and the relationships that enable it actually meant asking how this money was first earned or received, sorry, received. And that meant understanding. And so like taking and giving loans within family networks, within groups of friends, of course, selling all your savings and trying to earn as much money before as possible, but this will never be enough. So it was really going to individual family members and not only asking them to give you the money, but also doing the labor of having to portray yourself as trustworthy, but also as capable of doing this trajectory alone or with your family, with your kids. And what I found really interesting in the long run, I mean, I'm a female researcher, so my group was also very diverse around me, and it was both men and women. And a lot of the women were actually leaving alone, which is immediately a result of what has often been called now the gender apartheid that women experience in Afghanistan. But then even for women in Iran, there are so many forms of oppression that women experience that men don't. So how do these women actually navigate to then convince their family members that they now give them a loan that they, as women will pay back alone after that trajectory. So money, as simple as it sounds, and we all have heard about the high sums that some smugglers take, this money actually stems from somewhere and if we follow it, we actually see all the relationships that come back to it. And taking a loan is not a simple act, right? It can lead to taking more loans. It can then come to a juggling of loans. So taking up another loan from someone else, so you pay off the one uncle who is already very demanding, and you have this one friend who is maybe more relaxed and so on, and navigating these thin lines. And many of my interviewees are actually people who were not given the right to have education, a proper education. In Iran, many Afghans, especially in the 1990s and early 2000s, were not allowed to enter secondary school. I mean, it really depended on the Ostan, the federal state they were at. So often these would be people from the outside that others might label as uneducated, or people who only entered school until sixth grade. They would not speak English, they didn't have financial skills, as it's sometimes called. But still, or maybe still, or maybe because, or maybe nevertheless, they absolutely were able to use money as a form to move on for some others. And that's of course the other side of it, were not able to move on. And often this was also due to money. That is one side of it. So how people got the money to move on and how they took the loans from family abroad, family back home, but also each other. So within the Ham gami groups. But then I also used money to understand how are the relationships to other actors along the way. So for instance, what role does money play with humanitarian actors? What is the form of money when delivering aid, when giving charity? In ethnography, in anthropology, but also in sociology, there's a huge discussion about a gift. What is a gift? And what is the reciprocity that we expect through a gift? And nevertheless, so many donations are labeled of gifts, but are they very truly that one sidedness? Who holds money over whom? How is money infused with power? What does it mean to queue for free goods, but nevertheless having to queue when you actually just want food for your baby or yourself along the trajectory? And then how does money actually shape the relationships also to border guards, through bribe, or if bribes are not taken, through excessive violence? And then I think that's the obvious part that probably everyone immediately associates with money along undocumented migration trajectories. What is actually the role of money in the relationships that people have with those who are termed smugglers or in Farsi, rajagba or rahbalad, those who know the way, those who facilitate the movements? And how do payments unfold? And how do you trust someone with money? Throughout months, sometimes of walking or of staying in a certain place? Money was actually fascinating as a tool to go back through all of these social interactions through something so obvious where everyone immediately has an association with it.
- [33:11]
Arman Childes
I mean, I also find it extremely interesting how you kind of, I mean, when we think about money versus, I mean I immediately say versus social relationships, we tend to think about money as a destroyer of social relationships. Whereas what, what you're showing is that sometimes money also creates social relationships in different ways. And I mean, yeah, that's the kind of. It was also interesting how you kind of brought up this discussion of the gift because, I mean, we also don't think about money as gift most of the time, right? It's a different kind of economy.
- [33:49]
Hannah Pool
No, you're absolutely right. And money also being the start or a form of deepening social relationships was something I was allowed to observe, especially with women in the camp situation or moments of encampment. And yeah, by coincidence, in a way, the group ended up in what at that time was the most notorious and largest camp along the EU borders. And within the camp, a situation where everyone was somehow given the same little amount of food and the same little amount of some form of pocket money. Women started to really help each other through loans. And I think this is something what surprised me. And then it didn't surprise me, right, because you try to pool resources together and helping a friend for one moment can also mean that this friend will help you back. So this idea of reciprocity within a somehow tight knit community or a community that had gone through something and that was staying within a very small, very encamped place for a long time. And this could mean that someone still had money left at the end of the month and would offer it to someone else, knowing that they definitely would be paid back. But for baby pampas that might run out or cell phone coverage. And this back and forth really almost created like thin web throughout the encampment situation, as well as earning money in the camps and here earning money doesn't mean any sponsored forms from humanitarian actors. Also, it meant that someone was cutting hair and received something in return. There was an electrician who was repairing cell phone cables or so and got some form of financial reimbursement for that. But it also meant a group had started to create an oven in the olive Hein. And people took turns now baking bread. And then over Ramazan, suddenly the baristas for bread went up a little bit because people were more willing to spend money on amazing naan bread to kind of have something to celebrate Ramazan in the evening. And the baker, who themselves lived in the community, who were in the camp themselves, kind of did realize that and did make a little extra. They also put some sprinkles of sesame on top for Ramazan. And these little acts that show how money can also allow you to remain human in a situation that is so structured, designed and channeled to dehumanize you. Do the entire asylum process is meant to be set up so that you are categorized into yes and no answers, that you suddenly become a number that your biography has to check details. And the term resistance has been so overused. But it can really mean that investing these $0.75 on that one day to have this fresh, tasty, good smelling naan allows you to celebrate at least being there, being somewhere still close to your identity and not having to eat the prepackaged, cold, warm food that people at that time had to queue for for four hours. And that was never enough. That always left you hungry. And there were a lot of rumors about the food making you sleepy and that there were pills in it. I cannot say anything about that and I wouldn't. There was so much attachment to the food that was distributed and that really looked disgusting versus investing these 75 cents that somehow you didn't have, but you had. And that was so much more than you could buy in that moment. And all of this through money. So it was really interesting to see relationships unfold through this.
- [38:36]
Arman Childes
I mean, another thing I find fascinating is this really vast network of people, institutions. I mean like also, I mean, I'm also talking about smugglers, but also things like these gold shops that the guarantors of some payments. It was really fascinating to see. Can you tell a bit about this kind of infrastructure that makes the game possible?
- [39:04]
Hannah Pool
Maybe what I do need to add, I mean, it became very clear already that I'm looking at one particular group of people who had to flee their countries and that are Afghans or people from Afghanistan. But what is so special maybe is that people from Afghanistan have been forced to move within and out of their country, not just for the past years, but really for decades. And that were movements within Afghanistan over the last 200 years. But then also the movement to, for instance, Iran during the oil boom in the middle of the 20th century. But then also all the movements that unfolded since 1979, so since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and then later due to the Taliban and then again with the US led invasion of Afghanistan, so many people moved back. And then afterwards when the situation became more insecure again, people might have moved back to Pakistan and Iran. All of this leading up to the moment where the Taliban were given power again in August 2021. And now the maybe newest movement wave that we see with people being pushed from Iran and Pakistan back to Afghanistan through deportation. All of this to say that people from Afghanistan have been forced or voluntarily or in this just unfolding of life, have been on the move across borders. And because of that, people also needed to create infrastructures that allow you to bring money across borders and to facilitate payments. And everyone who has ever used Western Union should also know that Western Union Union actually derives from something that is called hawala, which is a very smart way of moving money for transnational, trans regional borders. And that has been used for centuries. The system is just like Western Union. You send money immediately, but you have two points, and both points have money. So the money actually does not move. The money stays in place. But because you get a receipt or some kind of confirmation, someone can receive money in another location without the money actually moving from A to B. So this is nothing new. But of course, now in the entire trajectories over the last decades and decades, this form of hawala was always there. It was a form to send money back home from labor, but also, for instance, for the fees of a rahbalat, one who knows the way, or a rajabbar, someone who might be transferred as a human smuggler, but without the connotation. I think that's really important to highlight here. So when someone did this game from the group, they didn't carry these 6,000, €7,000 with them. They sometimes just carried very little, very, very little, 10, €15, depending who and where with them. But the money itself was noted at different points. For instance, you might have found your rajagbar in Tehran and you had paid at a certain location in Tehran, but only if you successfully made it to van in Turkey. You would act by a phone nowadays, would release the several number digit and with that the raja bar would get the money. And again, from an economic sociology perspective, you see not just an infrastructure, but you also see notions of trust, right? Trust exists because to some extent you are trusting that person. You align life. But there's not naivety, right? There is still a business sense behind it and business here not as a rational thing, but still you don't give someone all your money right away. You put some securities in this. And these securities were so deeply established because they have been used in the case of Havalah for centuries, that people wouldn't question them so much. But these are institutions. And yeah, this could also mean that some shops would function not only as selling gold or goods, but also as hawala transfers. And what I also need to highlight here is that hawala is also a reaction to the fact that sometimes it's very hard to send money between countries and especially to Iran. After the swift sanctions, hawala has become even more known as A form to circumvent that. So there are also a lot of challenging parts around it. And again, this is not about idealizing anything. It is more about seeing how humans will always create to find infrastructures for needs. And here the real need was so obvious and that was bringing your life into safety. And when we look at money also in these relationships, we also see how people create distinctions. So for instance, there could be an active decision whether to use hawala or Western Union. To use Western Union you need a passport. That is a huge issue for people from Afghanistan, especially those who were born in Iran, because many of them did not have the access to proper documentation. And let's be honest, people also use weakness and vulnerabilities of others. So there were several instances where I saw Iranians who speak Farsi, who could immediately communicate with each other, who would offer to receive money for someone else from Western Union. But Western Union charges you already quite a lot. But then these people would charge you additionally on that. And I remember someone telling that they received €6,000 Euro, but actually they had to give €1,000 to the person who received it. But there was just the desperate situation that you needed this. But it could still be an advantage to use the Western Union because that is a transaction that is also very invisible. We have an economic system that is very transactional. It's very clear, it's an app or whatever. While the hawala dar is somewhere that you actually have to go to, the person sees you and that person knows who got what kind of money. So it could actually be an active choice to rather use Western Union and pay the fee to someone with a passport, for instance, an Iranian who has proper documentation and so on, but therefore pay an additional fee. But it would allow you so that your neighborhood, your community, those around you don't know what you received. I mean, there are all these lines of that are deeply entangled to money and that people very actively navigated.
- [46:59]
Arman Childes
I think we're kind of coming towards the end and I would love to ask you before we finish, what are you working on nowadays?
- [47:08]
Hannah Pool
Thank you, Aman. In a way, I mean, now with the publication of the book and articles, this research project is completed. However, life is still unfolding, politics are unfolding, and my thoughts are quite a lot with people from Afghanistan and all the cruel and horror messages that come out of Iran and Afghanistan again and again and now also within my own country. So as a German, I shocked to see that the government is now negotiating with the Taliban with the aim of deporting people to Afghanistan and thereby legitimizing the Taliban. So this is continuing. And each of the book talks, lectures, discussions, kind of become not just a moment of reflection, but also one where a lot of people think about what next. I think there's a lot to learn from this book that goes beyond Afghanistan. This is also a book on how people navigate very uncertain times and how people try to escape authoritarian systems and how those who are brave and those who read the signs manage to leave countries early. Because, let me remind you, these are people who left before the Taliban came back in power. Right? These are, in a way, not the lucky ones, but those who were able to read the signs so early that now they are not just in safety, but also they left a country that is now so deeply, deeply entrenched in gender apartheid. So. So I think there are a lot of lessons to learn that go beyond just Afghanistan. So this work, in a way, is continuing without being work and more being thoughts that are given to me. What I am working on now. So actually, where I'm sitting down and what my fingers now put on screen is how climate change changes the way we move through the world. And I was very fortunate to start my field research on two years ago by now, and I was a fellow within the United nations system to learn about the climate negotiations and how movement of people is being thought through, the role of money in that. So the role of the World bank, for instance, in that. And at the same time, I was invited to spend time with the Fiji government on climate change and learn about their very impressive, very progressive plant relocation guidelines in Vichysuva, where I was also allowed to spend some time. And all of this because, once again, life kind of had more serendipity than I thought. On the very day of my PhD defense in August 2021, sorry, July. July 14, 2021, there was a lot of rain and it didn't stop raining. And what unfolded throughout the day of my viva was the deadliest flooding caused by climate change in my community and my neighboring community, the AA Valley. And I volunteered during that summer in the AA Valley, where 180 people died on that day due to the water. And, yeah, so climate change has been on my thinking since then and how we move due to climate change. And now I would like to bring that together from the very locals who actually my neighboring community where I spent my childhood summers, to the climate negotiations all the way up there, kind of on the global level, and link that to future movements of people, people across borders.
- [51:28]
Arman Childes
Well, I look forward to reading that as well.
- [51:32]
Hannah Pool
Thank you.
- [51:33]
Arman Childes
Thank you so much, Hannah, for being with us. It was lovely talking about your book. We had this conversation with Hannah Poole on her wonderful book, the Game the Economy of Undocumented Migration from Afghanistan to Europe that came out of Oxford University Press. Until next time.