← New Books Network
New Books Network
Hans A. Harmakaputra, "Christian-Muslim Relations in Post-Reformation Indonesia: Resistance, Identity and Belonging" (Edinburgh UP, 2026)
01:27:25
Loading summary
Transcript61 lines
- [00:02]
New Books Network Announcer
Hey NBN listeners. We're running our 2026 New Books Network Audience Survey, and we'd love just a few minutes of your time. NBN has been bringing you in depth conversations with authors and scholars for over 15 years. We haven't done a comprehensive audience survey since 2022, and a lot has changed since then. It's time to hear from you again. Here's why we're asking. We want to understand who's listening, what subjects and podcasts you love most, and where you'd like to see us grow. Your responses help us tell NBN's story to the publishers, libraries and institutions we partner with when we can show that our listeners are serious readers, lifelong learners, and heavy library users. It opens doors to new partnerships, better resources, and ultimately a stronger NBN for everyone. And one more thing, if you leave your email address at the end of the survey, you'll be entered to win a $100 gift card to bookshop.org, a chance to stock up on books while supporting independent bookstores at the same time. The survey takes just five minutes. Your answers are confidential and your email will never be shared. Head to newbooksnetwork.com to take the survey today. We really appreciate your support. Now go take the survey.
- [01:15]
Byung Ho Choi
Welcome to the New Books Network
- [01:20]
Hans Harma Kaputra
hello
- [01:20]
Byung Ho Choi
everyone, and welcome to New Books Network. This podcast is for those who would like to explore the expansive discourse on world Christianity as a global phenomenon and as an emerging field that examines Christianity's cross cultural, diasporic and transnational manifestations by paying close attention to the underrepresented and marginalized expressions of the Christian faith in the global South. Thank you for joining me today. I'm very excited to share this interview with you all. I'm your host, Byung Ho Choi from Princeton Theological Seminary. Christian Muslim Relations in Post Reformation Resistance, Identity and Belonging, written by Hans Harma Kaputra and published by Edinburgh University Press in 2026, examines the changing dynamics of Christian Muslim relations in contemporary Indonesia. In particular, the book situates these relations within the broader transformations that have taken place in Indonesian Islam since the Reformation. The post Reformation era has witnessed a vastly changing landscape in Indonesian Islam, particularly with the emergence of conservative Muslim voices. This book explores several strategies of Christian resistance against the resurgence of conservative voices in Indonesian Islam to establish a coherent view of Christian responses and a greater understanding of Christian Muslim relations after the Reformation in 1998. These different strategies demonstrate that despite their status as a religious minority, Indonesian Christians are far from passive and submissive. Instead, they actively negotiate their identity and role in In Contemporary Indonesia's Shifting Political and Social Context to cultivate a sense of belonging. During our interview today, we will delve deeper into Dr. Harmakhaputra's groundbreaking work and how this book sets out to make a significant contribution to not only scholars and students of world Christianity, but also interreligious studies, Christian Muslim relations, and beyond. To learn more about these issues and more, please stay tuned and we hope you enjoyed the book and our conversation as well. Today we are privileged to talk with Dr. Hamakhaputra, the author of Christian Muslim Relations in Post Reformation Resistance, Identity, and Belonging. Hans Harma Kaputra is the Assistant professor in the Department of Religion, Philosophy and Classics and at Agostana. Prior to Augustana, Dr. Hamaka Putra was Visiting Assistant professor in Comparative Theology and Christian Muslim Relations at Harford International University for Religion and Peace in Connecticut and a Louisville Institute postdoctoral fellow from 2020 to 2022. His research areas are Christian Muslim comparative Theology, constructive theology, Inter religious Studies, and Christian Muslim relations, especially in Indonesia. He has published a monograph titled A Christian Muslim Comparative Theology of the Community of God's Friends through Brill in 2022 and contributed a chapter in Georgetown Companion to Interreligious Studies, published through Georgetown University Press in 2022. In addition, his work has been published in various journals. And to just highlight some of Dr. Harma Kaputra's publications, he has written first say no to An Analysis of the Islamic Fatwa on the Prohibition Against Wearing non Muslim Symbols in Indonesia, published in the Muslim world in 2020 post colonial turn in Christian Theology of Religions, Some Critical Appraisals, published in Journal of ecumenical Studies in 2016 and toward an Indonesian Post Colonial Christology, published in the Journal of exchange in 2016. So it is indeed an honor and a privilege to have Dr. Hamakarputra to new Books in World Christianity. And thank you so much, Hans, for taking the time today to talk about your book.
- [05:55]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Thank you so much for the opportunity. It is my pleasure to be here today.
- [05:59]
Byung Ho Choi
Again, it is an honor. I have been waiting for this day, believe it or not, for a long time to invite a scholar who is from Indonesia who is doing a lot of work regarding Indonesia. So again, once again, welcome and to start, Hans, I'd like to extend my sincere congratulations on the publication of this very significant work. I understand that the book has recently been released, so it's really hot off the press, granting our audience immediate access to it. If I'm correct, this is your second single authored monograph, right?
- [06:38]
Hans Harma Kaputra
That is correct. This book is my second single authored monograph.
- [06:43]
Byung Ho Choi
Great. Once again, my sincere congratulations on this new book. Before we carefully delve into the contents of your book, Khans, I believe it will be important to begin today's conversation by getting to know you better. Hans, do you mind sharing with our listeners and with our audience about your background, where you did your PhD and how you became interested in your field of study? Who were some of the mentors that might also have been very influential in shaping your scholarship?
- [07:15]
Hans Harma Kaputra
I grew up in Indonesia in the city called Bogor. It's a city near Jakarta and as the country with the largest Muslim population in the world, my identity as an Indonesian Christian is significantly shaped by the context in which I lived. I went to Jakarta Theological Seminary for my undergraduate studies. During this period I developed my interest in theology of religions, interreligious studies, and the intersections between religion and politics. In 2011, I received a scholarship and enrolled at Harvard Seminary in Connecticut and that's where I learned Islam more deeply and got my degree in Islamic Studies and Christian Muslim Relations. And afterward I wanted to pursue my PhD where I can combine my interests and training. So I applied to Boston College and enroll in their Comparative Theology program. During the coursework at Boston College, I took several classes on Contemporary Muslim Society at Harvard University, which helped me in sharpening my socio political analytical skills that I use heavily in this book. And regarding some mentors who have been influential in shaping my scholarship, I would say the first one is Reverend Dr. Joas Adiprasetia, my teacher at Jakarta Theological Seminary and now a colleague and friend, and the late Professor Mahmoud Ayub, who was my professor back at Harvard Seminary.
- [08:59]
Byung Ho Choi
Well, thank you so much for this introduction. What I really also appreciate so much about these conversations over podcasts is that it offers our listeners and future readers a wonderful opportunity to explore the discussions that extend beyond the boundaries of the book. So at this time, Hans, I would like to kindly invite you to tell us a little bit more about how you came to write your book Christian Muslim Relations in Post Reformation Indonesia, Resistance, Identity and Belonging. I know I had the privilege of reading your book from COVID to cover, and I know you talk about this a lot in the preface and acknowledgement and even in the introduction and throughout the book. But I'm very curious to hear it from your voice and also curious to know how this project began and what led you to writing this monograph.
- [09:54]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Well, first, thank you for reading the book from COVID to cover. I think you will be the first reader except the ones who review the manuscript. So my interest started with personal curiosity because I grew up in Indonesia and I lived throughout this Reformation and post Reformation period. And I always have the questions related to the relations between Muslim and Christians, especially also with people of other religions. But because of my identity as Indonesian Christian, that question always exists in my in my life personally. And I've started writing papers on Indonesian Islam and Christian Muslim relations several years prior to writing the book proposal on the issue of church closing. However, I was part of a team dispatched by Persukutuan Grija Grija de Indonesia or Indonesian Church Fellowship that's like the national body of Protestant churches to survey churches who suffered church closing or received threats around Bandung West Jaffa. So I got some personal experience with surveying church closing cases. And then the Yasmin Church case that I explored in Chapter 4 is located in Bogor, my hometown. And perhaps the last thing I want to share is I often hear opinions that assume Christian minority in Muslim majority areas are passive and without agency, and I want to challenge such an assumption by highlighting how Indonesian Christians develop active resistance and we are not passive. So that would be my motivation to begin this project.
- [12:02]
Byung Ho Choi
Well, thank you Hans. I think what I hear from your answer is that this book is really close to your heart and in terms of your journey as well, in reflection of the work that you've done over the years in Indonesia and kind of also advocating as also Indonesian Christian some of the journey that you took on. And I think it's great. You've mentioned some of the early on, you've already mentioned some of the chapters that we'll be delving into. So for our listeners, do not worry, we'll be discussing more about that soon. So for those who have not had a chance to look at the new book, it's already out. You can access the table of contents as well in the Edinburgh University Press website too, but I want to take a brief moment here to walk our listeners through its contents. The book includes a total of six chapters along with an introduction and a conclusion, with chapters three through six focusing a lot on case studies as well. It also includes an extensive bibliography of relevant books, as well as wide ranging academic and also public facing articles on Indonesia's religious, historical and socio political dynamics, providing a treasure trove of resources for those who wish to dig deeper into these issues. Moreover, this book draws on the authors Dr. Hamaka Putra's field research in Indonesia, which includes interviews with key subjects and focus group discussions conducted both in person and also online. This monograph also employs qualitative research methods that combine the author's personal observations as an Indonesian Christian with a case study approach, bringing to light the continuing tensions between Christian and Muslim communities in Indonesia, an especially pressing issue in the context of the largest Muslim populated country in the world. For our listeners who may not be familiar with the history of of Islam and Christianity, do not worry especially about the history of Islam and Christianity in Indonesia. The book also helpfully includes a concise historical overview of the two religions in the introduction. Now, Hans, back to you know, digging deeper into this book, especially about the introduction, you provide readers with the groundwork and context of your study explaining what you aim to accomplish through this work, which is quote, to establish a coherent view of Christian responses in a way in the form of active resistance to the development of conservative voices in Indonesian Islam and a fuller understanding of Christian Muslim relations in the changing landscape of post Reformation Indonesia. End quote. So Hans, before we move any further into discussing in detail the chapters of your book, I think it will be very helpful to first unpack the term Indonesian Islam. Do you mind explaining how this term is used throughout your book? And more importantly, could you briefly highlight the development of conservative voices you know, also by scholars? Many scholars use the term, you know, quote conservative term when talking about Indonesian Islam.
- [15:40]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Thank you, that's very comprised summary of my book. Really good one. So the term Indonesian Islam is widely used by different scholars to acknowledge the uniqueness of Islam that grows in Indonesia, usually noting its moderation, compatibility with modern values and democracy, accommodation of local cultures and acceptance of religious plurality. For example, Asumardi Azra, a prominent Muslim scholar in Indonesia, argues that Indonesian Islam is essentially tolerant, moderate and chooses the Middle Way, or in Arabic, Ummahwasat, which makes it distinctive to Islam in the Middle East. Ahmad Najiburhani, a Muslim scholar, stipulates that the term refers to 1 traditionalist Islam, 2 a resistance to political Islam and 3 an Indonesian manifestation of Islam. So that's about the term Indonesian Islam. And if we talk about the conservative voices in Indonesian Islam, those voices have always been part of Indonesian Islam, but never become the majority or never become the dominant force. One of the manifestations is the demand for political Islam, namely to explicitly making Islam as the country ideology during the New Order regime. Sorry. Under President Suharto, such a political aspiration was suppressed under the state ideology of Panchasila. It was only after 1998, after Reformation, that conservative Muslim voices are able to grow and influence the public sphere significantly because of the newly democratic system that emphasizes human rights and freedom of speech as a result, it is in the post Reformation era that the development of conservative voices materialize in the growth of militant Muslim groups, the demands for Sharia law, the upholding of the blasphemy law, the increase of church closing cases and other attacks to religious minority groups, and the development of Islamic parties.
- [18:12]
Byung Ho Choi
Well, thank you, Hans, for setting the groundwork for our discussion today. I think this will be very helpful for our listeners as we continue to talk about your book because these terms will continue to pop up and kind of in a way will remain in the backdrop of our conversation. So thank you once again for clarifying these two important key words. But before we begin also discussing Chapter one, I want to take a brief moment for our listeners who may be new to Indonesia to cover a few key terms and historical dates that will come up repeatedly in our conversation. So there are four things I would like to mention in terms of clarifying some of the key dates and key terms. First, the year 1945 marks a pivotal moment in Indonesian history, as it is the end of the Japanese occupation and Indonesia's proclamation of independence. Second, the term New Order Era also will come up throughout the book and our conversation. It refers to the period of President Suharto's regime which lasted from 1966 to 1998. Third, the term reformation or in Indonesian Reformasi, refers to the events of 1998, when the fall of President Suharto regime led to major reforms and changes within Indonesia's governmental and political institutions. And last but not least fourth, the Post Reformation era, which is also referenced in the title of the book, from what I understand refers to the period following the fall of the New order, so from 1988 to the present. So now Hans, in chapter one, you begin by situating the readers within the broader historical and political framework of Indonesia between 1945 and 1998. In particular, you highlight the importance of Pantashila, as you also mentioned, as the ideological foundation of the Indonesian state and how it shaped relations between religious communities, including Christians and Muslims. For our listeners who may not be familiar with Indonesian political history, I was wondering if you can help us understand the role that Panchasila has played in shaping Christian Muslim relations in Indonesia. How did the political escape from independence through the New Order period influence the ways these two communities interacted with one another? So maybe if you don't mind, briefly explain what Panchasila is and then you can kind of dig into the questions as well.
- [21:03]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Yes. So Panchasila literally means the five principles, Number one, belief in the one supreme God two. Just and civilized humanity, three. The unity of Indonesia, four. Deliberative democracy and five. Social justice for all. Panchasila is established in the constitution after the country declared its independence in 1945. And Panchasila serves as the foundational ideology that makes the country unique. And this is something that all students, especially who grew up during New Order era, learn, maybe you as well in your school, that the Panchasila makes the country unique because Indonesia is not an Islamic state or a secular one. So it kind of like a middle ground between the two polars in terms of shaping Christian Muslim relations in Indonesia. Panchasila plays a significant role because it does not give one religion a higher status above others, at least on the constitutional level. In the early period after the independence, Panchasila was contested because there are factions who prefer Islam as the foundational ideology of the country. There was a debate to revive the seven words from the first article of Panchasila as written originally in the Jakarta Charter. So the seven words would be additional to the first Sila, the first principle belief in the one supreme God, with quote, the obligation of observing Sharia for its adherents. So those are the seven words in Indonesian language. The obligation of observing Sharia for its adherents, which may become the basis to implement Islamic law in Indonesia if these seven words are to be returned or retrieved. Christians and Muslims always have some tensions in their relationships because of several reasons. One of the causes is the issue of Christianization, which for Muslims triggered the bad memory of colonizations and the reason why until now even Christianity is somehow perceived as a foreign religion in Indonesia. In my book I mention several issues that influence the creation of laws that prohibit or limit religious propagation in public. And another important factor to consider was the significant increase of the number of Christians. So the number of Christians increased significantly after the communist incident in 1965. For many Muslims, it is the proof of Christianization because the number went up like from 2% to 6 or 7% of the total population and during the New Order period. So from 1966 onward, the government established Panchasila as the sole ideology. Although formalized later in 1970s, I couldn't remember the exact date, but the government declared Panchasila as the sole ideology, the only ideology, while repressing political Islam. And this is the factor that caused interreligious issues to Iraq during the transition period between 1997-2000 and in post Reformation era, because the government has suppressed Islam in public space. So, you know, after the suppression is off, people just change the situation with their own hands. Yeah, so good, so good, so good.
- [25:14]
Nordstrom Rack Advertiser
New spring arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores.
- [25:18]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Now.
- [25:18]
Nordstrom Rack Advertiser
Get ready to save big with up to 60% off rag and bone, Marc Jacobs, Free people and more.
- [25:24]
Byung Ho Choi
How did I not know rack has Adidas? Cause there's always something new.
- [25:28]
Nordstrom Rack Advertiser
Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting
- [25:48]
Botox Advertiser
four hours or more Botox Audubotulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for Those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headaches. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
- [26:34]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Why wait?
- [26:35]
Nordstrom Rack Advertiser
Ask your doctor, visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call
- [26:38]
Venmo Advertiser
1-844botox to learn more.
- [26:42]
Byung Ho Choi
Well, thank you for that clarifying answer. It's very important to know for anyone living in Indonesia or interested in in Indonesia about the importance of Panchasila, even not in political or societal terms, but also in religiously, how it has always been continued to come up in in this relation, religious relations and so forth. So thank you again for clarifying the answer as we move to Chapter two. Hans, you explore how the political reforms following the fall of President Suharto in 1998 created new opportunities and challenges within Indonesian society. In particular, you discuss Islamism and the emergence of post Islamism in Indonesian Islam after 1998, as well as the growing influence of conservative Muslim voices in public life, including the rise of Sharia inspired regulations in some regions. I was wondering, Haas, if you could tell us more about these concepts of Islamism and post Islamism. What is kind of the difference between the two? And you also point to several signs of post Islamism, one of which includes the implementation of regional Sharia regulations. So I found this section particularly fascinating and was wondering if you could help elaborate on it a bit more.
- [28:16]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Yes, Islamism refers to ideologies and movements that strive to establish some Islamic order in the form of a religious state, Sharia law or moral codes. I think many scholars will point the like the Islamic revolution in Iran, 1979 as one of the example of Islamism, how the state change in entirety and Islam become the ideology that governs the nation. So that will be Islamism. And then scholars have talked about post Islamism, right? So in Indonesia, the democratic environment after reformation proves to be fertile ground for Islamism to flourish and gain momentum. However, another emerging trend emerges, namely post Islamism instead of Islamism. Because Islamism never really take roots for the majority of people. So the conversation about the seven words just fail, right? So the attempt to put Islamic law into constitution fail. So the new trend, namely post Islamism, the traits combine Islam and democracy. So that's why post Islamism is unique. Unlike Islamism, post Islamism does not use a top down approach in asserting Islam as the state ideology because their ultimate purpose is for social change. And instead, post Islamism prefers to infuse and drive society with Islamic values that are broadly understood. And as a result, Islam does not replace Panchasila as the ideology, but profoundly permeates public spaces through Islamization. And the chapter delineates the traits of post Islamism, such as the failure to include the seven words of the Jakarta Charter into the constitution, the implementation of regional Syria regulation and the transition of Partai Kaadilan or Justice Party into Partai Kadilan Sejatra, the Prosperous Justice Party, which until now still become the dominant one of the most dominant Islamic party in Indonesia. After the failure to include Sharia in the constitution through the process of amendment, those who wish to implement Sharia discovered a new strategy through the enactment of the so called perda Sharia. Perda means Pratu Ra or regional regulation. So this regional Sharia regulation become the strategy that that was possible because of the democratic process. Because in this post Reformation era, the government focuses on the decentralization of power of the central government and to give each region greater autonomy. In addition, the law allowed people to directly elect comrades, persons, mayors and governors, even presidents. This is a new system that provide more room for politicians to appeal to their potential voters. And therefore, issues pertaining to religion became part of regional politics at different levels and in several Muslim majority religions. Sorry, in several Muslim majority regions. The call to implement Sharia inspired regulations were quite strong and politicians used the sentiment to appeal to the majority voters. And if we talk about regional Syria regulation, the exact number is unknown. Robin Bush counted 78 per DA in 52 districts and municipalities in 2008. It takes different forms from prohibiting gambling, alcohol and prostitution, 2, requiring Muslim clothes for students and civil servants, 2, establishing reading Quran proficiency as a prerequisite for marriage, civil servant test, and so on and so forth. In a more recent study, Michael Buhler calculated that Indonesia had at least 443 Sharia regulations between 1998 and 2013. However, most of those regulations were restricted to certain provinces and districts, namely Aceh, West Jaffa, East Jaffa, West Sumatra, South Kalimantan and South Sulawesi. And it is difficult to measure Christian responses to the regional Syria regulation, although the general response would be negative. The reason is because the number of Christians might be too small in those areas. Although in the book I described one Christian majority area in Papua that enacted the so called pardain, or in English would be regional Gospel regulation. And this is in Manokwari, West Papua. The bill was introduced in 2006 and was approved by the regional House of representative in 2018 as Perda Manokwari Kota Injil. So regional regulation on Manokwari, the gospel city. So you can see the similar pattern that there is at least one Christian majority city that wants to declare their Christian identity in, you know, as a way to contest the other area in Muslim majority areas, of course, and very
- [34:35]
Byung Ho Choi
unique, if I may put it that way, in terms of, you know, when there's a lot of Sharia regulations going on. This is another unique Christian response, right? Yes, but again, thank you for that answer segueing into chapter three. Hans, you take us into one of the most now well known events in recent, if I may put it that way, Indonesian religious politics. It is the blasphemy case surrounding Pasuki Dahaja Purnama, widely known as Ahok, who served as the Christian governor of Jakarta from 2014 to 2017. I was outside of the country then, but I still living outside of Indonesia. Back then this was a big news of how there was a governor of Jakarta who was a Christian. The protests and broader mobilization surrounding this case captured international attention and became a pivotal moment in contemporary Christian Muslim relations in Indonesia. So, Hans, could you walk us through kind of the significance of the Aho case? What did this event reveal and about the, about the relationship between religion, politics and identity in Indonesia and how did it shape Kind of the perception and experiences of Indonesian Christians during this time.
- [36:02]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Yes. So Basuki Chahaya Purnama or well, like really famous with his Chinese name Ahok. Right. Like a nickname, you can say. Ahok case marks significant moments because of several things. First, Ahok is the first Christian politician who gained wide popularity. He was elected into office of Vice governor of Jakarta along with Joko Widodo, which later became president of Indonesia for two periods. And Ahok was well known for his character and he was a clean politician and he produced good results in general. He changed Jakarta a lot. For many Christians, Ahok brought hope and moreover, he is a Chinese Indonesian, so he is a Christian and Chinese Indonesian. So he has this double minority label on his identity. Second, the case showed the power of Islamic populism in which the largest mass demonstration occurred in Indonesian history. And there are several demonstrations. Right? So these mass demonstrations showcase how Islam is a potent power in Indonesian society that can influence politics. And several scholars say this is the peak of conservative Muslim voices in post Reformation. And the third, this case is perhaps the most well known blasphemy case that managed to change the outcome of major gubernatorial election. At that moment, Jakarta has become a major, let's say state for election because of the success of Jokowi Dodo, right? He was the mayor of, sorry, the governor of Jakarta. Then he was elected as the president of Indonesia. It also shows that blasphemy case is not only about religion, but entangled between religion, politics and identity. Fourth, the responses triggered by result of the case also demonstrates the strength of Panchasila as the ideology that unites diverse groups with the mass gathering under the name Candles for Ahok or Lilin Ntok Ahok in many cities, right? I think I was also already in the US during this period, so like you, but I can tell from the news from social media how there is a lot of backlash to the decision of the court. So it shows that Indonesian public sphere is indeed very diverse. You can find conservative Muslim voices as well as progressive ones or traditionalists, but also modernist. And it shows very diverse voices in it. If we talk about Indonesian Christians, there are different responses, but in general, many felt wrong and expressed grievances. Because Ahok's case mirrors the treatment of Christians who have often been victimized as a religious minority in Indonesia. His case reminded them that despite seemingly much progress in the nation, religious minorities were still vulnerable. Mainly minorities were the ones who should tolerate and endure various forms of discrimination and injustices. The case of Ahok also triggered the anger of some Christians who live in Christian majority regions. This fact explains why Indonesia, the national church body and the Synod of Grija Masahi Injili di Timor, the largest Protestant senate in Nusatangara Timur, issued statements after the case. After the decision by the court, they issued statements in which they reminded Christians to stay calm and not to retaliate with violence. Right. At least it shows that this major Christian organization want to turn down the temperature.
- [40:45]
Byung Ho Choi
Of course.
- [40:46]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Yeah, so. And in public, many who supported Ahok attend those scandals for Ahok gatherings or speak in social media pages. However, the response was greater within Christian communities. Almost half of my respondents reported that Ahok was mentioned in multiple venues, from Sunday worship and Bible studies to residential fellowships where several families within an area gathered together. Some respondents also noted that people were more eager to cite and discuss Ahok's case in smaller gatherings beyond the Sunday service. In addition, almost 25% stated that Christian communities explicitly mentioned Ahok's name in their prayers, congregational prayers, and a tiny portion mentioned that the communal prayer did not use his name, but subtly referred to the general situation regarding the nation. Although congregants or knew it was about Ahok's case, approximately one fifth of my respondents stated that Ahok became the conversation topic in informal and formal settings or formal meetings where people could express their grievances directly. And you've been in Indonesia, you know how people like to talk. So you know, church is not. It's not just about worship. Right. It's about social gathering. And mainstream Protestant churches were more consistent with the principle of separating church and state. So their support for Ahok took more subtle forms as the leadership tried to maintain a neutral position. However, as I show in the book, the case has prompted many Protestant churches to display bolder affirmations of pentasila and nationalism. Evangelical churches, particularly those from Indonesian Chinese backgrounds, traditionally maintain a stricter position regarding politics. And Ahok's presence brought a degree of shift as they saw Ahok as one of them. And suddenly the level of interest in politics surged. However, the mass demonstrations struck fear and placed anguish in the hearts of many Chinese Christians as they evoke the trauma of the 1998 tragedy and the prospect of riots targeting them was looming. In the aftermath of Ahok's trial, many would return. Many of these Chinese Christians would return to the original stance of strict separation between church and politics. So they don't want to talk about politics in the church anymore. The Pentecostal Charismatic churches displayed a different position as their leaders were more open in expressing their political views. So, yeah, those are some responses within Indonesian Christian communities. Thank you.
- [44:02]
Byung Ho Choi
Thank you so much for that detailed insight. As you as our listeners can also relate. It has been indeed a big moment for a lot of Indonesian Christians during this time. And just by Ahan sharing some of the responses, we can indeed tell that, you know, it had played kind of a a big role within people's identity, how they perceive religion and politics together and how, you know, conversations took place both in formal and informal locations. So thank you, Hans, for that detailed answer. While reading your book, Hans, looking at chapter four, I found this chapter to be particularly pivotal for me personally, and it is also the longest chapter in your book. I calculated the pages personally. It was one of my favorite chapters because, as you may know, I lived in Indonesia from the 1990s into the early 2000s and during the final years of the New Order era and the early period of the reformassy. This church closings which you discuss in this chapter was something that my family and I were also very aware of as Christians living in Indonesia. So this chapter itself is titled the Phenomenon of Church Closings in Indonesia A Study of the Yasmine Church Case. And here, Hans, you explore the complex issue of church closings in Indonesia, tracing the problem back to some of the regulations governing the construction of houses of worship, specifically SKB 1969 and PMB 2006. These are kind of the name of the laws that were passed. While the Indonesian government may have intended these laws to help sustain interreligious harmony and social stability, you also, if I remember correctly, argue that the actual outcomes were often quite different, even contributing to the intensification of church closings after 1998. And at the center, as you've titled it in the chapter title, is the Yasmine Church Case, which I hope you could speak a little bit more about. Could you tell us about this specific case and how Christians responded to it as a form of resistance?
- [46:37]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Yes, as I mentioned in the beginning, this chapter is perhaps the one that is more personal or me, even though I never experienced church closing, like my church never received any threat or, you know, some protests from residents. But church closing is a term I use in the book to refer to a phenomenon that includes various activities from individual objections and demonstrations, two physical attacks, and there there was a significant increase in church closing case after 1998, along with the growth of Muslim conservative voices in public sphere. So yes, I argue that those two regulate actually it's a one regulation. They amended the previous regulation in 1969 and adding more clarification and adding more like more explanation about who is responsible in issuing the permit in the new regulation in 2006. But it doesn't stop the problem. And therefore we saw significant increase in disclosing cases in post Reformation era. And among these cases a few became well known nationally and even internationally, including the Yasmin Church case. And Yasmin Church case even attracted international attention. I have several anecdotes that unfortunately I cannot say in public how like some important figures from United States came to Indonesia and then the first thing they asked the President was what's about Yasmin Church case. So that really something that make Indonesian politicians, I think feel ashamed in public. So I will talk a little bit about the Yasmin Church case. The church started as a planned church of Graja Christian Indonesia or Indonesian Christian Church Pangadilan in Bogor. So Pangadilan is the name of the street where the church is located. After purchasing the land located at Taman Yasmin housing complex in 2001, the construction committee prepared all necessary documents including collecting signatures from local population from 2002 to 2005. So one vital requirement in the law is to provide signatures of local residents. I think in the previous version of the law it didn't specify how many, but in the 2006 law it says something about getting a number of. So there is this 90, 60 rule, right? So you get to gather at least 90 people and you have to get signature of 60 people surrounding of the local area. And of course the construction committee prepared all the documents between 2002 and 2005. So this is exactly before the issuance of the new regulation. And then the permit for the new church was issued in July 2006 and the construction of the church building started afterward. In February 2008, protesters gathered to stop the construction of the church. They comprised of local residents and members of militant Muslim organizations from outside. And this is typical pattern in many church closing cases. It's not always the local residents, but usually there will be people from outside from Muslim organizations. And as a result of this demonstration, the city suspended the permit and the Pangadilan Church brought the case to Makama Agung or Supreme Court in 2009 who decided that the suspension letter is invalid. In August 2010, the city opened the seal on the construction site and the half built church. But few days later, the mayor issued another letter to withdraw the permit. So before they suspend and then the church won in Supreme Court, now they withdraw the permit, not just suspending the permit. And the mayor cited the same reason given by the protesters, and therefore, in this case, the main reason for church closing is the mayor's decision. In 2011, the congregation began to conduct Sunday worship services on the pavement outside the disputed church as a form of resistance against the unjust situation. The tension escalated afterward when masses who rejected the church intimidated and disrupted the service. Due to security reasons, sometimes the police prevented the congregation to use the space for worship, so they moved to a member's house. During the Christmas service in 2011, the counter protesters attacked the congregation, so they ran away from the site and continued the service at someone's house. After similar incidents happened repeatedly, the Pangadilan church decided to discontinue hosting the public worship outside the disputed church. And then in 2012, the public worship was moved to Jakarta, more precisely to a location in front of the Presidential Palace. And the public worship occurred every two weeks and joined by the Houria Christian Batak Protestant or Batak Christian Protestant Church, Philadelphia. And this community is another victim of the church closing case. In Bakasi, West Java, the Sunday services had guest preachers and were attended by people sympathetic to their cause. To stand in solidarity with them, the public service served as peaceful protests by amplifying their voices to the whole country and beyond. Occasionally, human rights activists and other minority groups struggling for their rights joined the public worship. These people included representatives from other victims of church closings, the Ahmadiyya community and the Shia community. And until 2019, the congregation or the community there held more than 200 public worship services. And this public worship is an example of active resistance. This is the reason why the case is well known internationally. And then another form of active resistance is shown by another party. And it is the Pangadilan church. And this active resistance is through communication, cooperation and conciliation with the city government, especially after the new mayor was elected. So the mayor who closed the church ended the period, right? So he left and that new mayor was elected. And the new mayor, Bima Aria, wanted to solve the issue and he initially tried to open the disputed church. Unfortunately, the rejection still continue, although for a different reason. And a broader analysis found that the surrounding area has grown into a business area. Because this has been more than 10 years, so the area has grown and opening the church will disrupt the traffic flow and create a new parking issue. Despite ex hosting all alternatives and finding no plausible way out, Mayor Bima Aria wanted to pursue the solution. And then one official and here I tried to not giving much information to public, but one official suggested to the mayor and Mr. Arif from Team Tuju Team 7. So this is the designated team from Pangadilan Church to work on the matter to solve the issue. So this official suggest to them that he will be open to using repressive means to convince, you know, in quotes, right? To convince the residents and to remove those who provoke the masses against the Yasmin Church. So basically use like repressive means which is very Indonesian way to do this is like very usual. And Mr. Arif retorted to the suggestion immediately, citing the Pangadilan church position. Quote, Our goal is not merely opposite obtaining the permit. Our goal is to worship in peace forever in this city. But church's presence should bring peace to its members and people in society alike. How can we live in peace but our neighbors do not. We do not want other rejections to occur in the future. So this position reflects the position held by many Christians in Indonesia, namely to build good relations with people in their midst. So constructing a church is not just a matter of obtaining a permit or not. And for the Pangadilan Church, cooperation with the government does not equate to compromising principles or blind following. After the new location was identified and the location is not far from the disputed church, Tim 7 and the mayor work together to research the reception of surrounding residents and Muslim leaders because they still have to gather the voice. And I have several stories that unfortunately I cannot share in my book. But they really work hard to meet people, especially at night to avoid people knowing about it. So the mayor and Tim7 really went from door to door asking residents to accept the new plan for the church. So they went on numerous visits to meet the residents to have dialogues and rally their support for the new church building, including those who refused to have a church initially. And finally they obtained enough support as required by the PBM 2006 and the City granted a new piece of land to Gekay to the Pangadilan church and the whole process was concluded in June 2021 and permit was issued two months later in 2021. And then on April 9, 2023, the church held an inauguration ceremony for the newly built church and it is called Gekai Poslogorbarat. So the status is still os post, you know, like a planned church. So they are not yet independent.
- [59:03]
Venmo Advertiser
Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo stash got paid back with the Venmo debit card. You can instantly access each your balance and spend on what you want like game day snacks, gear, tickets and more. The more you do, the more cash back you can earn. Plus, there's no monthly fee or minimum balance. Sign up now@venmo.com collegecard the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. select schools available. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply at venmo me stashterms max $100 cash back per month.
- [59:33]
White Claw Surge Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by White Claw Search Great podcast pick friend. No surprises there. After all, you're all about finding the tastiest flavors out there, just like White Claw Surge. And with big bold flavors to enjoy like blood orange, BlackBerry, cranberry and more, it's time to go all in on taste. Unleash the flavor. Unleash White Claw Surge. Please drink responsibly. Hard Seltzer with flavors 8% alcohol by volume White cloth seltzer works Chicago, Illinois
- [60:01]
Home Depot Advertiser
Spring starts at the Home Depot and we are bringing the heat to your backyard this season. Fire up the flavor with our wide variety of grills for under $300 like the next grill 4 burner gas grill that's perfect for hosting your spring cookout. Then set the scene and turn your outdoor space into the go to spot the patio sets for every budget. Bring it this season with grills that deliver flavor and patios that set the vibe from the Home Depot. Start your spring with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot. Exclusions apply. See homedepot.com pricematch for details.
- [60:31]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Wow.
- [60:32]
Byung Ho Choi
I think in a way this shows kind of the lived reality of Indonesian Christians, especially in terms of when we talk about church closing. And I know because we only focus on this big case in a way, we don't talk about too much violence in terms of attacks. But this is, I guess, how would you say it, just the tip of the iceberg in a way, if you want to talk about church closings in Indonesia. But again, thank you, Hans, for providing the insight into what has been going on and the kind of the growing church closings after 1998. And this really shows the reality. We want to move on now to Chapter five, which examines kind of another fascinating controversy surrounding the Indonesian Ulama Council, or Majilis Ulama Indonesia. The MUI is Indonesia's most prominent Muslim clerical body whose primary function is to issue fatwas. And in this chapter, Hans, you focus specifically on a fatwa issued by the MUI in 2016 that discouraged Muslims from wearing non Muslim symbols associated with other religions. I was wondering, Hans, if you can speak more about this specific case, could you first help us understand the context and concerns surrounding this fatwa and what kinds of questions or anxieties it raised among also Indonesian Christians. Because even though fatwa was directed to Muslims, this also triggered something amongst Indonesian Christians. There was a wording there. And finally, I think it would be nice if you can also touch upon the significance of the late Professor Jan Aritonang's response to the mui, which also kind of helped open more space between Muslim Christian dialogue. So if you can touch upon that briefly too, that would be very helpful.
- [62:49]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Yes. So the fatwa was issued by the Majilis ulama Indonesia or MUI, in December 2016. And from the MUI's explanation, the fatwa was a response to some reports from Indonesian Muslims. They claim that their employers forced them to wear Christmas attire during the Christmas season. However, the fatwa has caused social unrest because militant Muslim groups have conducted trades under the pretext of upholding the fatwa and protecting Indonesian Muslims interests. For many Indonesian Christians, what makes the fatwa directly disturbing is, is the fact that the MUI seems to equate Christians with the unbelievers or Kafir Yan? S Aritonang's letter to the Mui is arguably the most widely known response to the fatwa because it went viral online. Paritona. I called him Paritona. He was my pitcher. And he is a professor of church history at Jakarta Theological Seminary, my alma mater. His letter challenges the MUI's interpretation and invites its members to a peaceful dialogue. Although they never responded to the letter, to my knowledge, his letter inviting the MUI to dialogue is unprecedented in the history of Christian Muslim relations in Indonesia. Because usually, like Christian intellectuals or Christian theologians will only talk to public in a secular language or to Christian public in like Christian language. But here Paritonang dares to ask for explanation and offer counter explanation as well to the mui. There are several poignant points in the letter. First, he asked for a clarification because the fatwa does not clearly describe what kind of religious attire or symbols are being prohibited. Given the timing of its issuance in December, people can assume it prohibits Muslims from wearing Christmas symbols. Okay. And then second, Aritonan speaks about Christianity and culture, primarily pointing to the lack of consensus among Christians about Christmas symbols. What is visible in the dominant culture has been imported from the tradition of some Western churches. You know, if you go to Indonesia in December, everywhere you go, you will have a Christmas decoration. And therefore these Christmas symbols are not directly related to the Christian faith in Jesus Christ. That's what he argued. Instead, economic Reasons are likely the primary motivation for distributing and producing those symbols in the public sphere. And therefore for him it is perfectly acceptable if the Mui prohibits Muslim from making, selling or wearing Christmas symbols because that doesn't directly related to Christianity. And I think in in the US especially that's also the same, right? People can celebrate Christmas without going to Christmas Mass or Christmas services, right? It's a cultural thing to celebrate. Third, and I think this is the most vital point, he objects the characterization of Christians as synonymous with the unbelievers. Aritonan contests the meaning of unbelievers by reminding the Mui of the fact that Christians are called the Nasara in the Quran, not unbelievers or kuffar.
- [67:05]
Byung Ho Choi
Right?
- [67:05]
Hans Harma Kaputra
And this is something I heard from the late Professor Mahmut Ayub as well. So Christians are not unbelievers because in the Quran the Quran separates the two terms. And then Aritona also reminds the Mui of their task of maintaining harmony in Indonesia's diverse society. And to prevent any potential conflict among different religious groups. And to understand the urgency behind the 2016 fatwa, it is vital to include a significant and controversial political issue that filled the News headline in December 2016 and that is the blasphemy case of Ahok. Right? So during the issuance of this fatwa, Ahok's case was still taken the attention of the whole nation. And this timing of issuing the fatwa in December 2016 has led some Christians to suggest that the fatwa might have a particular political dimension. Although the relationship between the two is not apparent and seems unintentional. I think the fatwa is connected to the blasphemy case because it makes a forceful theological claims that equates Christians with unbelievers. That claim contradicts the long standing Muslim theological view that Christians are considered part of the People of the Book or Ahlul Kita. And by rigidly drawing the line between what is Islamic and what is non Islamic, the fatwa could imply that if a Muslim should not wear something that imitates a non Muslim in any sense, like Christmas hat or Santa's hat, then voting for a non Muslim as governor is a greater sin. Right? So Ahok's case overlap with the voting season, with the election season for his election. And I do not say that this is the original intention behind the issuance of the fatwa. Instead, I mean that the readers, both Muslim and Christians, could get such an impression when they hear or read the fatwa along the situation where Ahok's case is happening at the same time. Yeah, thank you.
- [69:38]
Byung Ho Choi
Providing a subtle, subtle hint.
- [69:40]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Right. Yes.
- [69:41]
Byung Ho Choi
To the conversation that's been going on in the wider public. But thank you, Hans, for providing that. And yeah, it was quite interesting to hear of this specific fatwa going on in that specific overlapping time. So again, thank you for your insight and guiding us through what was going on through that time. Believe it or not, Hans, it's already. Now we're diving into the final chapter of your book where you take us to Maluku, a region deeply shaped by inter religious conflict and its long aftermath. For our listeners who may be unfamiliar with the violence in the Maluku Islands, also known historically as the Spice Islands, a series of violent clashes between Christians and Muslims took place and began in 1999. These conflicts have been described as among the, quote, most horrendous in terms of the scale of death and destruction caused by primarily by Muslim and Christian militias, end quote. Estimates suggest that between 5,000 to 10,000 people died and around 700,000 people were displaced. What I found particularly compelling, Hans, about chapter six, this last chapter, is that you do not treat Maluku simply as a case of just violence between Christians and Muslims. Instead, you approach it as a post conflict society where questions of memory, reconciliation and the rebuilding of trust remain, you know, still very much alive. And if I remember correctly, you also went to visit Maluku for your field research, Am I correct? Yeah. All right. So at the same time you pay close attention to the role of the church, especially the Maluku Protestant Church, and how its identity and mission have been reshaped in this context. Hans, could you help us understand the significance of Maluku within the broader story of the Christian Muslim relations in Indonesia? What were some of the major challenges facing Christians and Muslims in the aftermath of the conflict? And how did the church contribute to the peace building and the reconciliation efforts?
- [72:09]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Yes. And first, I have to admit that I'm far from the expert on this issue in Maluku. I did visit the place for meeting like key respondents and key figures, but I cannot claim that I'm an expert in this topic, but I very much diligent students, you can say, and I really respect the people who work hard in creating the Maluku as peaceful region right now. The conflict in Maluku happened shortly after the Reformation and it is one of several areas in Indonesia that suffered from interreligious and intercultural conflicts. The conflict was shocking not only because of its scale, but also because the region was well known for its religious tolerance. It signals the message that perhaps the peaceful situation and tolerance as propagated by the government were not true beneath the surface, perhaps Indonesian society is vulnerable to conflict. And that is the reason why scholars investigate Maluku to a greater extent. Right? Both Indonesians and non Indonesian scholars. My professional interest in the region started early in my graduate studies because I encountered the work of Reverend Jackie Manuputi. And I also encountered the person back in Harvard because he was the
- [73:56]
Nordstrom Rack Advertiser
an
- [73:56]
Hans Harma Kaputra
alumni of the same program. And at that time he received a peacemaking award for his role in peace provocators. And I will speak about peace provocators in a little bit. As a post conflict society. The lingering negative feelings could be easily manipulated to trigger another conflict which occurred in 2011 when another riot erupted in Ambon. And soon the riot conjured the image of widespread conflict of the past. Because in the past it started with a small thing and then it engulfed the whole region, right? So after a decade, when this riot erupted, a lot of people got scared. Fortunately, the feared escalation into a large scale conflict did not occur. Although the riot caused some casualties, Christians and Muslims worked together to contain the riot and reduce the tension to avoid expanding the riot to other areas. One instrumental civil group in this process is called provocator Damai or peace provocateur. And this is of course a pun because during the conflict a lot of incidents are caused by provocator. So people who provoke by spreading lies, by spreading hoax. So peace provocators played a vital role in the swift de escalation of the incident in 2011. I always believe interfaith dialogue and peace building are effective when people in grassroots participate in the context of Maluku, where religion and culture are essential parts of the fabric of society, interfaith efforts by the church become indispensable. Interfaith effort is also a form of active resistance. So that's my argument that connects with the main argument in my book.
- [76:07]
Nordstrom Rack Advertiser
Book.
- [76:08]
Hans Harma Kaputra
The church contributes in peace building efforts through different ways. There are several examples. First through conflict prevention and management. And peace provocator is an example which I mentioned just now. And the reason is because religious leaders plays essential role in Maluku and in Indonesia in general, right? And then for example, a few years ago, a priest in youth wrote a Facebook post that denigrated Islam and the Prophet Muhammad. This could escalate into conflict. And then one of my respondents from Maluku, Ms. Rusta Le Kawa, a Muslim activist, informed Rev. Jackie about the case. She texted him Through Facebook Messenger, I think.
- [77:00]
Byung Ho Choi
Yeah.
- [77:01]
Hans Harma Kaputra
And then Reverend Jackie contacted the local leaders. They identified the youth, found him and deleted the post. Right. So examples like this are several. Whenever I met Jackie, he will tell me different cases that another activist would intervene.
- [77:23]
Byung Ho Choi
Right.
- [77:24]
Hans Harma Kaputra
And then on another occasion, there was a rumor in Serum Pulau Serum regarding a popular store owned by a Christian that it products might contain pork. And Muslim volunteers checked the store and found that the rumor was false. Because before spreading and then they spread the fact that it's just a rumor. So basic fact checking by interreligious peace activists can help reduce tension in society greatly in this post conflict society. Second, peace building also involves advocacy for social and economic issues. In 2013, a campaign called Safe Aru with Tagar. With the what? Tagar. In English, the. Yeah, that's hashtag.
- [78:17]
Byung Ho Choi
Right.
- [78:17]
Hans Harma Kaputra
So hashtag Save Aru Saveru went viral on social media and attracted the attention not only within Indonesia, but also from across the globe. The campaign began with a tiny movement when a young college student in Ambon contacted Reverend Jackie and shared a concern regarding Aru island, his home place. A company planned to open a sugar cane plantation in Aru. With permission from the local government, the plan would destroy Aru's forest, along with the livelihood and food supplies of the inhabitants, not to mention destroying the habitats of Aru's wildlife. In the following months, the campaign brought together a coalition of people to stand with the locals against the company's plan. Thanks to the vast network of various communities, the momentum changed the tiny spark into waves of support for the cause. Ambonbergraak, an interfaith group of activists, helped spread the message of SafeARU. And the online petition was signed by more than 14,000 people from 45 countries. Pictures of people worldwide holding the Safe Aru sign were uploaded to social media. And these formidable grassroots movements ultimately succeeded in having the plan canceled, giving them a well deserved victory. So I show that interfaith is not just about religion. When there is a common cause that can unite people, that's also something very essential for uniting people. And last and third, Graja Protestant Maluku, or the Protestant Church in Maluku, has paid attention in educating the younger generation who were not directly involved in the past conflict, but were impacted by the religious segregation and negative feelings toward others. As an organization, Greja Protestant Maluku and its pastors developed several creative ministries. For example, in the last few years, the synod hosted an annual event for Christian and Muslim adolescents to meet, learn and nurture mutual trust and respect. In 2020, 3. The Bakumpul Lintas Iman, or interfaith gathering event, gathered more than 100 participants from several churches and mosques in Ambod. There is also a creative ministry such as Donging Damai or Peace Tales, led by Reverend Eclipse, the Fretas Protestant Maluku pastor and peace activist. As a friend reloquist, he started the ministry in 2018 to spread peace and harmony through puppet shows for children. During the COVID 19 pandemic, he and his team utilized social media such as Instagram to broadcast virtual children's worship. The message is intentionally inclusive so that children of all faith traditions, especially Muslims, can benefit from watching the program. And during Ramadan 2020, he aired storytelling sessions every Friday for Muslim children. And the stories were explicitly crafted to help children learn about peace and respect for diversity. So these are several intentional creative ministries and I put many more examples. In my view. I'm really impressed with the church in Maluku and how their ecclesiology is being reframed. Right. And to show and to reflect the diversity, the reality of diversity in this post conflict area.
- [82:12]
Byung Ho Choi
Prior to reading this chapter, Hans too, I remember reading about really creative ways that you just also mentioned in coming up with songs and also art in promoting interreligious peace and reconciliation. So yeah, very creative and very, how would you say it, active participation in trying to create peace within this region culturally and also interreligiously. And again, thank you so much for your insight into what has been taking place in Maluku. Now Hans, we are heading towards the end of our interview and there are a couple more questions before we completely conclude today. The first two questions I would like to ask you right now is what do you hope now scholars working on world Christianity or interreligious studies or even Christian Muslim relations will take from your book. What are you hoping that they will take? And what new doors for research would you say your book opens up to?
- [83:24]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Thank you. I hope scholars of world Christianity will connect their research with interreligious studies. I think multi faith context has become the context in which we live today in the world, wherever we live. I think one of the future trajectories of world Christianity studies is to explore the intersections between Christianity and people of other faiths and how the encounters shape the Christian identity. And I think I've read several works on this already. And second, my book takes a different vantage point because many researchers use secular or Muslim perspectives in analyzing Indonesia. So I hope scholars would include the perspective of religious minority in analyzing the situation. Any context, right. Any places in the Indonesian context, it means to see perspectives of indigenous religious communities. So, for instance, and regarding new doors, I'm not sure what new doors for research my book opened, honestly, but I hope scholars will pay more attention to different forms of resistance. That often subtle, right. And it's there, but it doesn't take like really active form of resistance as understood broadly, like through violence or through reaction, reactive measure, reactive action. And especially among Christian communities, especially in Asian context where in most countries Christians are minority groups. Right. So in understanding these Christian communities, I think it's really important to pay attention to what forms of resistance they develop. Thank you.
- [85:26]
Byung Ho Choi
Yeah, thank you. And I think you've done such a wonderful job in highlighting that active resistance throughout, you know, as a backbone of your book. And I hope that more those that are interested and listening to our podcast would look into other forms or other contexts as well in terms of when we talk about resistance. As we conclude today's interview, Hans, there's one final question I would like to ask you, and that is do you mind sharing with us your current and your future projects or what you hope to work on in the future?
- [86:03]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Yes. I currently work on another monograph with Dr. Joa Sadi Prasatya, my mentor and colleague. And it is titled Christians in the City of Jakarta Witnessing the Cross among the Crescents. And we have secured a contract with Bloomsbury for the book to be part of their series. I think it's called Christians in the City Contemporary Studies in World Christianity or Contemporary in Global Christianity. I think that's the series. So that's my current project. And in the future I hope to work on another comparative theology book focusing on Jesus Christ while also incorporating perspective from Indonesia for sure. So from Muslim and Christians in Indonesia. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.
- [86:59]
Byung Ho Choi
Yeah, thank you so much, Hans. Those projects sound truly promising and I eagerly anticipate more of exploring your work. And once again, Hans, thank you so much for joining me today on this podcast.
- [87:12]
Hans Harma Kaputra
Thank you. This is my pleasure.
- [87:14]
Byung Ho Choi
Thank you. And thank you everyone so much for listening to today's episode in which we explored Christian Muslim relations in post Reformation resistance, Identity and Belonging, written by Hans Harmakapatura and published by Edinburgh University Press in 2026. This is your host, Byung Ho Choi. And please stay tuned for the next episode on the new books in World Christianity. Sa.