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Hilary French, "Ballroom: A People’s History of Dancing" (Reaktion Books, 2022)
00:42:54
An interview with Hilary French
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [00:05]
B
Hello and welcome to another episode on the New Books Network. I'm one of your hosts, Dr. Miranda Melcher. And I'm very pleased today to be joined by the author of a fascinating book published by reaction in 2022, titled A People's History of Dancing. This book, I found, did a lot of different things, literally took us through different dances and how they developed over time, but also the culture around it, how soc thought about dancing, how that changed the economics of it. Really, all sorts of things are packed into this book that is somehow with all of that, not like 600 pages long. So it was an enjoyable and fascinating book. And Hilary French, the author, is with us. Hilary, thank you so much for being here. Hi, I'm very glad to welcome you. But before we get into all things ballroom dancing, could you please, Hilary, introduce yourself a little bit and explain what, why you decided to write this book.
- [01:01]
A
Okay. Well, I have a background in architecture and the history of architecture and design. And really, quite by chance, when I started actually dancing myself, I discovered ballrooms as interiors. They don't appear in architectural histories and I could find very little conventional source material about their history or what prompted their building or their construction or that particular style. So I decided to pursue the study on learning that Frank Matcham, who's probably the most famous theatre designer in Britain, had been responsible for the interior designs of Britain's best known ballrooms, the early ones in Blackpool, which are known throughout the world, but hardly mentioned in extensive studies of his theatre work. The book is a very broad history, as you say, covering an extensive period of around 130 years, years from the opening of the first public ballroom in Blackpool in 1894, and situates it in the context of contemporary 20th century design history as well as the social and cultural history. I'd also add, I think the book focuses on what are the 10 international dances. Now there are five ballroom or standard dances, the waltz, foxtrot, quick step tango and Viennese waltz. And the other five are the Latin American dances, the cha cha, rumba, pasidoble, samba and jive. And it's based on the ballrooms and dance halls that they inspired.
- [02:33]
B
Lovely, thank you for that introduction to the background of the book and of course, the very helpful definition of the international dances. From that answer, we've already got an idea of the importance of Blackpool in this whole story. And that to some degree, kind of explains part of what I'm going to ask you next, why Britain is so important in this world. Blackpool being an Important place. But why is the story of ballroom so heavily, so primarily British?
- [03:05]
A
Well, the limited history that I could find that had been written about the origins of ballroom dancing, or couple dancing, tells us that it was established in Britain and it was definitely codified here by what was called the official board of ballroom dancing, which has now become the British Dance Council. And the rules that they put in place in the 1920s, those which are now form the basis for the international dances which are followed by all the international competitions. And this early form, when it was designed, was known as the English style. And the slow waltz continued to be called the English Waltz for several decades afterwards. The new style of dancing, when it appeared, was also named modern dancing. And today it's called various things, standard, modern or sometimes simply ballroom, which is to distinguish it from the Latin dancers. I think also what was unique to Britain was the development of public ballrooms, which started, as we were talking about in the late 19th century in Blackpool and continued up until the 1960s, which didn't seem to happen in other countries. And what makes them particularly unusual, I suppose, is that they were public facilities, they were built specifically for the working classes. So with such facilities, which were quite splendid as well, the first ones, quite amazing places, they provided the venues so that dancing could flourish. And then I suppose the next thing that happened was once the international competition started, the first World championships was held by a Frenchman, Camille de Renal, in Paris in 1909 and wasn't brought to London until 1922. But from that time on, almost every championship was won by a British couple. The first British Open and what's now the Blackpool Dance festival started in 1920 and has continued to be run there every year since, apart from a short break in World War II and obviously for Covid a couple of years ago, and for competitive dancers, it holds a worldwide reputation, I think, for dancing organisations also played a part in establishing the importance of British ballroom dancing, or English ballroom dancing, as it was called then. The Imperial Society of Teachers of dancing formed in 1904 and they held regular or annual conferences that attracted delegates largely from America and from European countries, particularly, particularly Germany and Denmark, and establish themselves as a significant force in the development of the new dancing style.
- [06:05]
B
Those are quite a good number of reasons why Britain is so important to the story. Reading the book and listening to that, it's fascinating kind of how many pieces there are in this. As you mentioned earlier, the book does cover quite a long period of history and I imagine moving through chronologically is probably going to make the most sense so if we start not quite at the beginning of the book, but at the beginning of the 20th century, you mentioned now a number of different dances and the key fact that this was very much for the working class, not exclusively, but very much open to them. What kinds of dances then did we see at the beginning of the 20th century? And what were the sorts of dances differences in terms of sort of. These ones were done at the seaside on holiday. These ones were in London. These were done by these people. These were done by these people. What, what were the sort of divisions and, and why?
- [07:05]
A
Well, the differences really between what was happening in London and what was happening at the seaside at that time is, is also another very big subject to do with kind of socio economic changes that were happening at the time. And I say the differences in what was happening is largely, in one word, kind of largely related to class difference, I'd say. And I think we're all probably familiar with a history of the aristocracy, of the upper classes, the British upper classes, who'd obviously enjoyed their own ballrooms at their country estates and would visit their London houses for the London season when balls were regularly held. During that time, the debutantes would be presented and introduced to society. Then on they were able to take part in all the entertainments and importantly would be eligible for marriage. Dancing was therefore an important element of such conventional socializing. The society balls. Society balls were listed in the newspapers and was probably the most important opportunity they had to meet others, especially a potential spouse. So the instruction in dancing, which included things like deportment and social etiquette, had long been part of the usual education. So for young people looking to get out and about and meet a potential spouse, it was important that they were versed in the figures of the principal dances in order to be able to take part. And all of those dances were scripted, there would be a set pattern to follow, whether it's minuets or lances or quadrilles. Then there might be some toe to toe dancing, maybe Viennese waltzes, the very simple early waltz that was very fast. But during that same time when the aristocracy or the upper classes were continuing with their conventional ways. This new kind of leisure industry aimed at the working classes, because they were beginning to have leisure time around this time with their Saturday afternoons off and eventually weekends, the seaside had kind of presented to them this obvious place to escape. I think it represented some way to get away from the urban centers where they worked in factories or offices, whatever, and initially dancing outside on the piers or on the boardwalks. The development of ballrooms very quickly became part of the many entertainment buildings. Of course, their kind of dancing, or this kind of dancing, was much less restricted than the formal balls of the upper classes. And with far less instruction, the dancers engaged in what we might now call country dances, something the kind of vernacular approach to dancing reels and polkas and perhaps some of the new slower waltzes too. And perhaps the more adventurers were eager to experiment with new modern dances, which were arriving mostly from America.
- [10:11]
B
So I'd like to ask you about America a little bit, because as much as the story is very much about the uk, throughout the book, it's clear that the. These dances, the whole culture really of ballroom is popular on both sides. And there's kind of a lot. There's a lot of information sharing, excitement sharing really, between, you know, across the Atlantic. So, given that we've spoken a bit about Britain so far, can you help us understand sort of why ballroom was also so popular in America at this point?
- [10:43]
A
I think, well, that music is a very important element. I mean, it seems obvious to say, but when we think about the. The way music changed from the late 19th century and all the way through the 20th century, most of those big changes in musical style came from America across to Europe. So at this time we're talking about jazz music and particularly ragtime, which was much more lively than anything that had happened up until then. And in some ways it seemed to appeal to everybody, whether it was the British upper classes who were getting a bit bored with their conventional socialising, or whether it was the working classes who were looking for something exciting to do with their increased amounts of leisure time, that ragtime from America seemed to be the thing that everybody could enjoy.
- [11:50]
B
I admit it is quite catchy.
- [11:52]
A
Yeah. And some of the dances at that time, which. I mean, the British were not terribly pleased about them, but they're called the animal dances. I think people are kind of familiar with the idea of them, that they existed, things like the grizzly bear or the bunny hug kind of fun and novelty dances, I think they are really. But they were. They were coming from America mostly, I think also around that time. It's important to say that. Well, I should say something about the. About the castles, Vernon and Irene Castle, who were aspiring stage performers in New York, and they were the couple who were credited with making this new form of modern dancing, or couple dancing, popular and respectable. They'd been on a European tour and performing in the Cafe de Paris, which wasn't going terribly well for them, as the story goes. So they performed a dance, the Grizzly Bear, to what was then a brand new tune, Alexander's Ragtime Band. This is all happening in 1911. And it seemed from then on they were hired by the owners of the Cafe de Paris and went on to become hugely popular in Paris, then were taken back to New York to the Cafe de l', Opera, the equivalent there, and even went on to open their own dancing venues, starting with Castle House in New York. And they were supported by well known socialites. And I think they were the first kind of glamorous couple associated with something just dancing ideal. They were an ideal couple, trendsetters. And they published one of the earliest books on modern dancing in 1914.
- [13:56]
B
Glamour definitely has a lot of appeal, as we still see today. You mentioned just now some novelty dances with some fabulous names, I must say there are, of course, others described in the book, but the names are quite entertaining. And yet at the beginning of this interview, you very clearly listed sort of the 10 international dances. And it sounded nice and standardized. But now we've got novelty dances and sort of contestation about what is appropriate, what is not. Obviously there's a lot going on here, so can you take us through kind of the between then and now? We obviously did get some codification and standardization. What were some of the challenges of this process and how did they sort of manage or to what extent did they manage to overcome this?
- [14:45]
A
Okay, well, the different teaching organizations, there were quite a few at the time, different regional teaching organizations across England. And they were all keen to take advantage of the opportunities offered by the enthusiasm for dancing. But at the same time, they wanted to make sure there was better organisation that people knew that knew the same kinds of steps so they could dance together. And the ballroom managers were struggling with big crowds. There were so many people wanting to dance, it presented difficulties sometimes. I think the biggest challenge they all had, and probably the one that continues to dog ballroom dancing today, is that they wanted to be able to devise figures that would be easy enough to learn, but not boring because of their simplicity. But at the same time, they wanted something that was challenging enough to hold their pupils interest. So there was lots of discussion about the different ways to regulate dancing. On one hand, the more conservative wanted to go back to the origins and what they saw as some true roots of English country dancing. But others thought that this was, in effect, a return to vernacular with no academic or classical credentials. So the others won the debate to move forward with the design of a new orthodoxy. So they started a project to codify which started in 1920, took them almost 10 years to complete. It was organized by Philip Richardson, who was the editor of the Dancing Times at that time, and he organised a group of interested parties, various teachers and performers, and held a series of informal conferences to discuss and decide on the new forms of modern dancing. So they wanted to redesign, taking existing dancers to generally improve the standard of dancing and to rid the ballrooms of what they called eccentric steps and ostentatious behavior. Their efforts were aimed at maintaining sociability, so they were aimed at what they called general dancers, what we now call social dancers rather than competitive dancers, to make sure that the dances weren't so difficult, that it would be necessary to practice with a partner, but would be easy enough to follow so you could dance with anybody. I think also figuring out how to describe the steps was quite a big project too, deciding on what the terminology would be and how it could all be written down, whether it was photographs with captions, or whether it was a series of the footprint diagrams that we've probably all seen, or the charts that they arrived at finally in the 1970s.
- [17:52]
B
I would definitely recommend to listeners to look up one of these charts that you've just mentioned. They're really interesting to look at. And honestly, I was like, it would be a bit of a skill to interpret this, not only to know how the dances work and in a lot of ways, I think, encapsulate exactly what you've just described. The challenge of fun, easy to learn, can do with anyone, but not too boring. So very much a complicated problem. That's interesting to think about how these experts tried to solve it, especially as it does cover, as you just mentioned, quite a long time period. This isn't something that was sorted out in a year. Ballroom dancing continued to be quite popular as we move away from the early 20th century. So if we think about the popularity of these, the glamorous figures, the books, the music, there's kind of many elements here I'd love to go back to. Right at the beginning, you talked about the epic ballrooms and the architecture. Can you introduce us to one aspect that made this so iconic? Specifically the name Mecca and how strongly associated this is with ballroom.
- [19:03]
A
Yes. By the 1930s, then, following the codification in the 20s, ballroom dancing was firmly established as the most popular entertainment for most people, certainly in Britain, rivaled only by cinema. The leisure industry or entertainment businesses had continued to grow. And the Mecca Organization, which had started out as a catering business, had become hugely successful. They launched mecca dancing in 1934 and went on to become Britain's biggest owners of ballrooms. The earliest public ballrooms, as we talked about in Blackpool, the design of those, they emulated the neoclassical designs of ballrooms of the upper classes. But by the 1930s, the aspirational lifestyle was now represented not by the aristocracy, but by theatre and film actors. And Mecca employed the more up to date, idealized images, which we probably associate mostly with Hollywood's Art Deco, which had been imported from European modernist architects. Their target audience was still the working classes, so their ballrooms had to be affordable, but they nevertheless used luxury branding and of course, evocative names. Their ballrooms were generally called the Palais de Danse. So the Palais were unlike any other spaces the working class dancers might have seen in the mid-1930s. They were all designed on a similar theme, clearly branded, we would say today, and even maybe refer to them as part of what we call experience design. And they used a kind of decor that suggested a very different environment, a kind of believable fantasy land. They had tiered balconies overlooking vast polished wooden floors, lots of twinkling star lighting effects in the ceilings, Chinese lanterns, coloured lightings and later on, a revolving bandstand to add to the spectacle. They also included, alongside the ballroom itself, they had boudoirs for the women with makeup, mirrors and shoe bags, and for the men, something they called stag rooms for preparing for the dancing. They didn't serve any alcohol, but instead there was a variety of ice cream bars and cafes and there was a strict dress code. They had uniformed staff who were issued with instruction books too, on how to deal with customers who they considered would be for whom they considered they were delivering a public service.
- [21:48]
B
They sound quite nice, really. Ice cream dancing, trained staff. I can see why they were so incredibly popular, and I believe from the book that they remained popular for quite a while. This wasn't a faddish sort of thing, the way that some of the dances, as you mentioned, were sort of novelties and didn't really last in that vein, really. I'm wondering if you can maybe talk us through a bit what happened later on in the book, chronologically, if we move towards the mid 20th century, how dances changed then. There were new dances, there were different kinds of dances. How did that change things?
- [22:32]
A
Well, during the 1940s, of course, the next wave of music, I suppose, the big band sounds again largely from America, ensured that the ballroom or standard dances were well established and popular. But at this time, the teaching organizations were beginning to promote the Latin dances they had started, including some of The Latin dances as early as 1946 I think was the first. And the Imperial Society created a latin branch in 1947. And the Latin dances were finally approved by the official board of ballroom dancing in 1948. But it did take until 1955 to agree. The final syllab, the jive wasn't added as the fifth dance until 1968. So it took quite a long time compared to the 10 years it took to codify the ballroom dances. At this time though, some schools had been enthusiastic about the introduction of the Latin dances, thinking it would attract younger people as well as enthusiastic ballroom dancers to return for a new catalogue of dances. And the Latin dances allowed for more individual expression as couples danced out of hold. But for some reason, well, for a series of reasons I suppose, the Latin dances never achieve the same level as popularity as the Jitterbug which was the most popular American import yet another one.
- [24:14]
B
I suppose then I was a bit surprised, I guess to try and bridge the gap between this world you're talking us through that is so incredibly popular. Ballroom is so popular across the classes. Very much the fun night out. There's easier dancers, there's harder dancers, there's different kinds of dances. You know, there's a lot that would be fun and attractive about this. And yet today obviously that's not the place necessarily that ballroom has. So obviously something has changed. Can you maybe help us understand what caused the decline in the popularity of ballroom? The book mentions sort of the end of the 1960s maybe as the starting point.
- [24:56]
A
Well, I think, I mean going on with another new form of music arriving and rock and roll music, which was very different to the music for ballroom and Latin dancing appeared from 1950 onwards. I think also marketing was becoming more focused with music and entertainment aimed specifically at the new teenage market. And at that point we start to see a kind of consumer perspective that tells us that interests of younger people is expected to be very different from their parents and that there starts to be this mark difference. I mean films like Rock around the Clock promoted this new music and seemed to persuade the young audience away from their parents idea of dancing. I think Too during the 1960s there's a change in the idea of how to spend all this leisure time and holidays. There was, I mean holiday camps became a sort of national pastime almost and butland synonymous with the. The British holiday camp accommodated tens of thousands of visitors every year. And in particular was a great supporter and promoter of ballroom dancing. Every camp had several ballrooms offering instruction and dancing round the clock. And it was a kind of perfect activity in England's uncertain weather. But by the end of the 60s, there was this idea of holidaying abroad in European sun. And the idea of pursuing active pastimes during your leisure time was replaced with more sedentary ideas like sunbathing on beaches or lounging by swimming pools in the sun. Television too, which by the end of the 60s was in almost every home, meant people stayed at home more than going out. I think there's by comparison a similar decline in cinema attendance at the same time. And I think, I mean, rock music and pop music as we now think of it had encouraged other forms of dancing that relied little on any knowledge of technique. There was, I mean, carrying on a bit further into the. Into the. In time. Disco dancing, which followed the release of Saturday night fever in 1977, did encourage a lot of people back into dancing schools to learn to dance like John Travolta. But rather than encouraging a return to standard dances, it kind of established the idea of solo dancing and encouraged more individual expression and ostentation.
- [27:45]
B
Interesting again, the idea of glamour being very influential really for this. Speaking of glamour and seeing something on a screen, obviously today I think most people would think of ballroom, especially in the UK and probably in America, as well as being, you know, Strictly Come Dancing, Dancing with the Stars. This is an incredibly popular show in a lot of places. Why do you think it's so popular? And also, if we go inside the world of ballroom specialists, why is it maybe less popular there?
- [28:19]
A
Well, I think they're simple answer to why is it popular? Is the participation of celebrities. The BBC producer behind it was responsible for Big Brother, which was a huge success and a new form of reality TV when it started, but was also responsible for a series of very successful competition programs like A Question of Sport, Mastermind and the Weakest Link. It's based on earlier TV programs. The first BBC television program dedicated to ballroom dancing which was launched in 1948, was the TV Dancing Club, hosted by Victor Sylvester and was based on his successful radio show, which was also called Dancing Club, which had started in the late 1930s. And in the introduction he tells us that it will bring the glamour and elegance of ballroom dancing into your homes. The program had elements of instruction as well as a competition part. And Victor Sylvester had been a key figure in ballroom dancing for a long time. He'd become chair of the ISTD in 1945. He was the author of several instruction books and leader of his own strict tempo dance band and was a household name by the 1940s and the other program, Come Dancing, which started almost at the same time a bit later in 1950 and was originally they were both shown on Mondays on alternate weeks, but they had very different levels of popularity. When Dancing club ended in 1964, had been the longest running BBC program. But the audience figures from the 196263 year had dropped from 9 million to 5 million. So already quite big numbers. Whereas the audience figures for Come Dancing in the same period had gone in the opposite direction, starting from eight and a half million and gone up to 10 million. The thought was that Come Dancing was more in tune with a younger audience and they included new kinds of dancing. Whereas Victor Sylvester was older and was more closely related to an older generation at the same sort of time. Arthur Murray, who similarly had become a household name in America by the 1940s, hosted something called the Arthur Murray Dance Party, which was on Television from 1950 to 1962, but only achieved success after he started adding in star guests. In a competitive element. So similar to Strictly Calm Dancing, there were actors, journalists and TV hosts who competed. And at that time they did it with a partner of their own choice. I think also the view that the celebrity element is important is made clear by the other program that the BBC launched called Strictly Dance Fever, which was hosted by Graham Norton. But it only lasted for two seasons and hardly attracted any attention at all. It had no celebrity element at all and audience didn't seem remotely interested to watch any real world amateur couples compete. I think dancers are generally pleased that Strictly Come Dancing has certainly those who run classes for social dancers has given exposure to ballroom dancing and has had an effect on increased numbers of students signing up to their classes. I think more recently dancers have become a bit disappointed to see less focus on the 10 international standard dances and more of the other alternative rhythms, the dances that like the salsa or the Charleston, which are less technically demanding, but they allow for more ambitious or more adventurous choreography, including lifts and gymnastic stunts, which of course makes them more entertaining for a general audience. So it seems like the focus of the program has shifted towards performance rather than the participatory essence of couple dancing.
- [32:56]
B
That makes sense why some people who actually know about ballroom dancing might be less inclined to enjoy it, especially given the intricate, really comprehensive history you've taken us through so far. I don't think, given, as you said, the popularity, that these sorts of shows are going anywhere anytime soon. So that very much helps us understand where they came from, where they're at now, and probably going to be part of our future. But on the theme of future, I did have one other question I'd love to ask you about where ballroom might be going next or maybe is already at. Can you maybe speak to the extent to which there's been a recent increase in same sex or inclusive dancing and how that's been accepted in different parts of the ballroom dancing world?
- [33:46]
A
Yes, I mean, since the late 1990s there's been a kind of renewed interest in partner dancing generally. I think we saw a lot of salsa, Lindy Hop and other swing dances and Argentine tango becoming more popular again. And around the same time in 1997, I think a new same sex dancing circuit was started in Britain. And unlike the mainstream circuit, they're much more accepting of other styles of dancing, whether salsa or Argentine tango. And there's much less of a division between competition or dance sport dancers and the general or social dancers. I should perhaps add in there that the competitive dancing was renamed as dance sport in 1997 to distinguish it from social dancing. And even the BBC Strictly audience seemed to have accepted finally the idea of same sex couples dancing together and regular social dances see women dancing together all the time and are beginning to see women leading men and sometimes men dancing together. I think what my research has come up with is perhaps more important that it's not the division between dance sports and social dancing that's an issue, nor the differences between the mainstream and the same sex or equality dancing as they now call it. But how to deal with the requirements for perfect technique, whichever camp you're in. The kind of tension between, on one hand, the requirements of technique, the codified figures and steps which are permitted by the teaching organizations, and on the other hand the enjoyment of dancing, whether professional competitors who step outside the technical conventions or the casual social dancers who just want to enjoy themselves, has long been a dilemma. I think it's brilliantly depicted, in fact, in the storyline of the 1992 Strictly Ballroom film and Baz Luhrmann's assertion that ballroom dancing is hamstrung by its overly strict regulations, in contrast to our more natural desire for individual expression. And it's a point of view that I came across all the way through the research for the book. As early as 1930, the well known band leader Jack Hilton, who was defending dance bands, said in an interview that dance bands are doing their best to keep dancing as a form of entertainment. It's the dancing teachers who were winning the fight to make it a laborious duty because he wanted more collaboration with the dancing teachers on the new forms of dancing. And Phyllis Hayler, who was prominent member of the group setting the standards, said in 1932, Our dancing is too difficult for the general public. We should divide our dancing into. So she was already suggesting that competitive dancers should have different rules to the social dancers. And Pierre, a member of the first ballroom committee, too, and author of the earliest, first Latin technique book published in 1948, actually says too much technique kills dancing. And then in 1958, we have Gwynneth Walsh, who hinted at the restrictions of ballroom when talking about Latin dancing, saying, well, the girls can express themselves more in Latin American and are not so restricted by a partner.
- [37:47]
B
Very interesting to see, kind of, as you said, how consistently this aspect keeps coming up throughout and how much it's maybe not what we would expect the division to be. So thank you for taking us through that and again, connecting history right up with the present and the future. Before we finish our interview, though, as much as we've kind of gone up to the future of ballroom dancing, perhaps if I can ask a final question, this book is obviously available. Anyone interested in what we've been talking about, there's a lot more detail to get into in the book itself. Is there anything, Hilary, though, you might be working on now or next, now that this book is done, whether or not it's about ballroom, whether or not it's a book that you'd like to preview?
- [38:34]
A
Well, I'm still keen to carry on with what started out as an interior design study, I have to say, and to find out and document the design of the ballrooms that remain. There are still plenty sort of hidden away in town halls, particularly many of which are still somewhat at risk. Not just being carpeted to be used as conference facilities, but a lot of them are being converted to wedding venues these days. And I think they do record a particular period in early to mid 20th century history, particularly in relation to working class history, which I think is often overlooked. And also I'm very interested in the. In the decorative effects to create the fantasy world which is associated with dancing and the possible glamorous future lifestyle created in the parallel world by film designers.
- [39:33]
B
Well, very intriguing. And best of luck documenting those, especially, as you said, as they're disappearing a bit. So I imagine some amount of investigative work. Best of luck with that. And while you are doing that, of course, listeners can read the book we've been discussing titled A People's History of Dancing, published by reaction in 2022. Hilary, thank you so much for being with us on the podcast.
- [39:58]
A
Thank you.