Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Episode Title: Hillary Rodrigues, "The Supreme Refuge: Durgā's Transformation Into the Hindu Great Goddess" (SUNY Press, 2025)
Date: March 5, 2026
Host: Dr. Raj Bhakra
Guest: Dr. Hilary P. Rodrigues, Professor Emeritus of Religious Studies, University of Lethbridge

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Dr. Raj Bhakra and Dr. Hilary P. Rodrigues, focusing on Rodrigues' new book, The Supreme Refuge: Durgā's Transformation Into the Hindu Great Goddess. The discussion explores Rodrigues’ decades-long research journey tracing Durga’s rise from a relatively minor deity to her identification as the Great Goddess (Mahadevi) in Hinduism. The conversation weaves together textual, iconographic, and historical analysis, offering insights into Durga’s shifting role, the meaning of her name, and her broader religious and cultural significance.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Background and Genesis of the Book

• Rodrigues describes his book as “a career-long piece of work,” originating in his PhD research, where he began with live observation of Durga worship in Banaras (01:40).
• The book is the first of a two-volume series—the first focusing on textual and iconographic analysis, the second (forthcoming) on Durga’s cultic and anthropological developments in regions such as Java, Bali, Nepal, and South India (04:30).
• Rodrigues’ involvement with the Navaratri studies group during the pandemic deepened his resolve to “doggedly pursue” foundational questions about Durga’s origins and transformation.
• He highlights the rarity and scholarly necessity of a comprehensive history devoted solely to Durga, in contrast to broader studies of Hindu goddesses.

2. Earliest Manifestations and the Question of Origins

• Conventional scholarship has often equated Durga with Devi, the Great Goddess, for over a millennium, but Rodrigues asks: “Was this always the case?” (09:07).
• He traces the earliest appearances of “Durga” not as a personal goddess, but as an adjective and concept in Vedic texts—referring to a difficult passage, refuge, or fortress (09:07–10:30).
• Durga emerges as a mantraically-invoked deity for refuge and aid in the Dharma Shastras and Griha Sutras, beginning around 3rd century BCE to 1st century CE, though there’s some ambiguity about interpolation (41:54–42:50).
  • Notable Quote:
    • "The earliest stage, Durga actually emerges as a kind of a goddess who is mantracally invoked to help one get out of problems and difficulties and so on." (09:50, Dr. Rodrigues)
  • The use of “refuge” as the most appropriate translation for Durga’s name becomes a thematic argument— Dur means “difficult,” ga means “to go/pass,” connoting a place that is hard to access but a sanctuary for those within (10:30–12:30).

3. Epic Hymns and Iconography

• Rodrigues analyzes hymns in the Mahabharata and Harivamsa, usually considered late insertions (~2nd century BCE – 2nd century CE), arguing that separating the hymns from their framing verses allows for an earlier dating (19:00–22:00).
  • He correlates hymnal attributes (e.g., peacock-feather banners, diadems) with early iconographic representations on Gupta-period plaques (23:00–25:00).
  • Suggests the diadem symbolizes Durga’s sovereignty—a self-coronation motif comparable to both Indian and Near Eastern royal iconography.
  • Early depictions focus on Durga crushing (mardini) the buffalo demon with her bare hands, before later iconography shifts to her using spears—possibly influenced by Near Eastern and Zoroastrian motifs (28:00–31:00).

4. The Devi Mahatmya and Durga’s Supremacy

• The Devi Mahatmya (circa mid-8th century CE, per Rodrigues’ research) marks the textual crystallization of Durga and Devi as one and the same—a “seminal text” still recited and widely revered in goddess traditions (36:00–38:00; 60:16–65:00).
  • Notable Quote:
    • “The Devi Mahatmya is very skillful at reconciling a whole series of tensions. ... [It] articulates a kind of a theology that is polytheistic. … the goddess takes a role of being supreme but moving to a transcendent primordium and supporting a kind of polytheistic, pluralistic form of worship.” (33:00–35:00)
• The text’s depiction of power is “very different”—not merely that the feminine represents the supreme, but that power is her very nature, transcending the hierarchies and competitions of other deities.
  • Notable Quote (Raj Bhakra):
    • "Power is something the gods have. The power is something that she is." (36:50)
  • The motif of refuge is further explored in a comparative sense—contrasted with Buddhist notions of refuge, underscoring Durga’s double-aspect as both impenetrable (for enemies) and nurturing (for devotees) (38:01–40:49).

5. Development, Dating, and Diffusion

• Rodrigues details the challenge of dating cultic and literary developments:
  • Puranic articulations predate the Devi Mahatmya but do not always name the goddess as Durga; instead, she appears with other names and attributes (53:25–55:00).
  • The “fusion” motif—where various goddesses, such as Nidra, Kaushiki, and Victory goddesses, are gradually merged and equated (44:00–45:00).
  • The centrality of the Devi Mahatmya in pan-Indian goddess devotion is partly due to its liturgical instructions— prescribing annual recitation and ritual performance, enhancing its standardization and ubiquity (67:34–69:30).
  • Notable Quote:
    • "Devi Mahatmya says… make sure you recite it on these key dates... And to this day, people are reciting it in stairwells and temples…" (68:00)
  • The book argues that the goddess’s rise reflects both internal sectarian dynamics (within Hinduism) and broader civilizational encounters, including interactions with Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and later, Islam (30:30–32:30, 69:30–72:00).

6. Thesis and Impact

• Rodrigues’ thesis: Durga’s transformation into the Great Goddess was not a mere aggregation of minor goddesses, but reflects the emergence and affirmation of an independent, ancient, and perhaps pre-eminently Shakta tradition that is only later canonized by Sanskritic texts (53:20–55:00).
  • Notable Quote:
    • “There was probably a Shakta tradition that was framing the Goddess as the supreme Goddess. … It is not sufficient…to explain the coming together and the creation of a great goddess... You have a great goddess tradition that is finally articulated in no uncertain terms in the Devi Mahatmya…” (53:25)
  • The Devi Mahatmya functions both as crystallization and legitimation of a longstanding goddess tradition, gathering and synthesizing a “web, not a straight line” history (41:16).
• The discussion emphasizes the field’s need for granular, deeply sourced research and expresses hope that Rodrigues’ work will seed further debate and study (51:15–51:34).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Durga’s Name:
  • “I was never fully satisfied until finally it dawned on me that the term refuge seems to be… a more ideal translation for the term in that sense that it encapsulates what she is.” —Dr. Rodrigues (10:50)
• On Power and Theology:
  • “Power is something the gods have. The power is something that she is.” —Dr. Raj Bhakra (36:50)
• On Polytheism and Pluralism:
  • “She articulates a kind of a theology that is polytheistic. It supports a polytheism, the worship of many different gods each getting their due place in the heavens.” —Dr. Rodrigues (34:00)
• On Historical Dating of Sources:
  • “As early as the third century B.C. you could say that Durga shows up as a goddess, but we can't be absolutely 100% sure that those aren't some insertions from a later period.” —Dr. Rodrigues (42:01)
• On Goddess Devotional Spread:
  • “To this day, people are reciting it in stairwells and temples.” —Dr. Rodrigues (68:00)
• On Scholarship:
  • “The best books are beginnings… I'm sure it needs correcting. I'm sure it's not perfect. Absolutely. But it's a start.” —Dr. Bhakra (51:15)

Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:40–09:00| Rodrigues’ research journey and Navaratri studies group | | 09:07–12:30| Durga’s earliest occurrences and meaning of the name | | 19:00–25:00| Epics, hymns, and iconographic correlations | | 28:00–31:00| Crushing and Near Eastern motifs in iconography | | 33:00–35:00| Devi Mahatmya, monotheism, polytheism, and theology | | 36:50 | “Power is something the gods have...” (Major quote) | | 41:16 | The “web, not a straight line” history (Key metaphor) | | 42:01 | Discussion of earliest textual mentions of Durga | | 53:25–55:00| Durga’s self-coronation, shakta traditions, Devi Mahatmya | | 60:16–65:00| Dating of the Devi Mahatmya and its iconographic correlates | | 67:34–69:30| Standardization, recitation, and pan-Indian diffusion | | 72:27–73:22| Closing remarks and “Goddess Geek” banter |

Tone and Style

• Scholarly, probing, collegial: Both speakers blend rigorous academic analysis with friendly banter and shared “goddess geek” enthusiasm.
• Nuanced and cautious: Both host and guest stress the tentativeness of historical reconstructions, the complexities of dating texts, and the necessity for future debate.
• Rich with examples, analogies, and inter-religious comparisons: References span Vedic to modern times, include global parallels, and emphasize the integrative nature of religious evolution.

Conclusion: Episode Takeaways

• Rodrigues’ book fills a substantial gap in modern Hindu studies by offering the first in-depth, critical, and comprehensive history of Durga as a distinct deity, tracing her “transformation into the Hindu Great Goddess.”
• The conversation showcases the interplay of textual, iconographic, historical, and comparative methods in religious studies.
• It concludes with a call for more research, debate, and “Goddess geekery” in the field.

For listeners seeking a deep dive into goddess traditions, Durga’s development, and historical religious processes in South Asia, this episode provides clear pathways, foundational arguments, and memorable scholarly exchanges.