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Morning decisions.
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Madeline Schwartz
How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits.
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Paul Starobin
welcome to the New Books Network.
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Paul.
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Paul Starobin
Hello everyone. I'm Paul Starabin and welcome to America and beyond, the New Books Network. My guest today is Madeline Schwartz. She is the editor in chief of the Dial online publication, also the founder, a regular contributor to the New York Times Magazine, the New Yorker, New York Review Books and other publications. And the book we're discussing today is called How We See it, the World Looks at America in the Age of Trump, which has an introduction by Madeline and it's edited by the Dial. So Madeline, welcome to America and beyond.
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Madeline Schwartz
Thank you for having me.
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Paul Starobin
Hi Paul. Hi. So talk about the book a little bit. The structure of it, I'll just say is as a series. It's a kind of a collection of essays. And I don't just all of them here, but the contributions start with India. So, um, we have Roy Canada, Donau Gil, South Africa, Eve Fairbanks. And so we get, you know, to a pretty good sampling of places around the world. Ukraine, Palestine, Taiwan, Turkey, Cuba, Egypt, Argentina, Italy and Ireland. So yeah, what was the idea and the conception here? Yeah.
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Madeline Schwartz
So just to back up, for those who don't know the Dial, we're a newish magazine of international writing and reporting. We started publishing in 2023 and we really, you know, my team and I were really interested in bringing, expanding the range of options to English language readers. I think so much of what we read in the United States is just about the United States or it's the impressions of Americans abroad. And what we wanted to do was, was to open the whole wide world of great writers and great reporting and certainly important writers and important reporting that we rarely get access to. So we publish a mix of long form journalism, essays and literature, about a third of which is in translation on our website, which you can see at thedial World. This book is our first venture into books and it really comes out of some pieces that we had published on our site in the run up to the 2024 election of trying to see how the rest of the world was reacting to the politics in the United States. And in putting together the book, we really wanted to show that that was not a monolith of reactions, but rather extremely varied both by the place that the person was writing from and. And in response to the extraordinarily ambivalent place that the United States has had in the world over the course of the past century. And so our pieces really, in the book really take on different aspects of that difficult relationship and also bring out different facets of America's, America's place in the world and how the United States might be seen from abroad. Our piece you mentioned, the first piece in the book, is from an Indian writer named Samya Roy, who actually wrote a beautiful book on the slums in Mumbai. And here writes about what she saw when she arrived in the Bay Area a few years ago in terms of the homelessness crisis here. And she talks about the particular loneliness and shame of the homeless population in the United States as quite distinct from what she saw in Mumbai, then we have essays that do more comparative politics. So we have a piece from Turkey, for example, looking at not only what Trump might have learned from a leader like Erdogan, but actually how the Turkish right really shaped itself around a certain idea of the American presidency as much more powerful than we tend to see our own presidency. That instead of seeing the system of checks and balances, they saw the possibility in the American presidency for really unlimited power and modeled their own rise to power around that. And so each piece has a very different perspective. But we're hoping that those different perspectives are a great way to start a larger conversation about the United States as it is right now.
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Paul Starobin
So in America, if we go back to 2015 and Trump in his initial rise, I think it was shocking To a lot of Americans, obviously those who never supported him didn't vote for him, but I think even others who maybe supported him, but just felt like he was something they hadn't seen before. And there's this whole thread of conversation about so called normal politics and how Trump breaks from normal politics. And is that perception something that you think your writers share the subtitle being America in the Age of Trump. I mean, do you feel that they see this kind of break that a lot of Americans perceive?
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Madeline Schwartz
I would say yes and no. And in fact, one of the interesting things in putting together the book and one of the things that my team and I really thought about was how much our own, you know, American way of seeing our own politics sometimes blinds us to the larger institutional failings that brought us to this moment. Which is to say that when we talk about Trump and we talk about his voters, we often tend to get into questions of personality. You know, what is it about Trump and his character? What is it about the voters and what they think? And we rarely really get into larger institutional questions about our politics and how that might have brought us there. Or on a larger level, what is similar about what's happening in the United States to what's happening across Europe or in other parts of the world where you see that trends such as the rise of inequality and climate change is really driving a new form of, of political conversation. So that's one thing that we really wanted to get across. To your question about do people from abroad see this as an aberration or continuity? A lot of the pieces in the book actually talk about the rise of Trump as something that comes out of a much longer historical process that they saw in the United States. We have an essay from a Ukrainian journalist named Natalia Gumanyuk, who's a really extraordinary journalist who covers war crimes in Ukraine, but also writes about her experience for us of covering every election in the United States since the Obama election. And, and she. Sorry, I just got a. Paul, I just got a alert on my phone that there's an earthquake nearby.
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Paul Starobin
Hold on. Yeah, so this question of continuity interests me. And my own background is I've been a foreign. I guess I still am a foreign correspondent. I mean, I've lived abroad and, you know, it's always tempting to kind of COVID from the basis of personalities, but I wonder if in some ways the so called foreign observer is perhaps less likely to get swept up in that because, I don't know, they just might have a different frame of reference, and particularly when it comes to Politics. I mean, so much of American political reporting tends to focus on personalities and celebrities. And I know we get a lot of that abroad as well. We certainly saw that in places like Hungary. But it still strikes me, in reading the essays in the book, that there are some very different frames of reference here.
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Madeline Schwartz
Yes, I think that's absolutely right. And one of the essays in the book that I find really interesting to that point is by Natalia Gumeniuk, who's a Ukrainian journalist who describes being essentially the only Ukrainian journalist to have covered every American election for the past 20 years, since the first Obama election. And she talks about how in that time, she's really seen essentially the fabric of American society fall apart. And she talks about coming from Ukraine, having her own country's historical relationship to fake news and propaganda, feeling that the problem in the United States was so acute, so much so that she would report in a small town in Ohio and elsewhere and find that people had different visions of not only what was happening in the world or in America, but in their own small town where you would think that everyone is actually looking at the same thing. And she goes from there to really talk about how can you have a society or a state in a situation in which two people looking at the exact same thing see a completely different story? And that is a question that I don't think any of us really have a resolution to and is likely to carry through in our politics well beyond Trump.
- [11:02]
Paul Starobin
Yeah, absolutely. Another thing I wondered as I was reading the essays, for example, the one dispatched from Italy by Francesco Pacifico was, are there certain attitudes about America or Americans that come through? Including, like in his essay. It's sort of a. I mean, you can describe it if you want, but basically it's about this whole thing with Americans, American tourists and Rome wanting their gelato or their coffee or whatever in their own particular ways that they think are what they've been led to believe are the correct ways or. But they may, in fact collide with what is typical in a place like Rome or Italy. So I sensed on the part of the writer a certain disenchantment with American and Americans. And this is an old theme. I mean, the idea of, you know, I mean, anti Americanism was certainly in the 1960s in places, Europe, France. I mean, we can go further back than that, but it's been a pretty consistent thread in some of the writing, at least by foreigners on America. So did. Was that, do you think, kind of a resident attitude or feeling among the writers here that there was something that was kind of, you know, not so welcome about what they're seeing in American Americans and particularly people who come abroad to their countries.
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Madeline Schwartz
Yeah, well, so for those who haven't read the essay yet, it's an absolutely hilarious send up of American tourists in Rome. And Francesco, he's a novelist and just a beautiful, pretty extraordinary writer who gets out of sitting at a gelateria. So many details and actually so many political comments far beyond what you might think you can really extract from ice cream. But one of the things that he says that I think is really interesting and goes far beyond Italian politics or, or tourism. You know, the subjects of his essay is he starts with the send up of the American tourists and they're taking too long and, you know, they come into Rome like an invading army and everyone's catering to them. But then as the essay goes, you know, continues, he begins to talk about how actually he realizes that he himself is a part of this culture, that he's also doing things because, you know, there are trends online and he's drinking matcha at a moment when everyone else is drinking matcha and that creates problems in the matcha sourcing in Japan and so on and so on. And so he comes to this conclusion of actually we've all become the American tourist. It's not we mock the American tourists, but we are them at the same time. Which I think is really interesting when one thinks about this particular moment in history when, you know, so many people around the world are looking at what's happening in the United States with disbelief and in many cases disgust. And I live in France and I, I can, you know, it's. The anti American sentiment about tourism is often quite palpable and, and at the same time, you know, our whole global structure is so, is so structured around the existence of a strong United States, whether you look at the military or the economy, that it's really hard for any one country or people to disentangle themselves from American power. And that's one of the ironies of this moment. You know, as Francesco says, like we, you know, one a person might dislike the American tourist, and yet somehow the American tourist is all of us.
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Paul Starobin
Yeah, no, it made me think, I mean, this is just on a sort of side note because, you know, my wife and I have an apartment in Umbria and one of these ancient hilltop towns and it's pretty small. It's really, you know, it's about two hours from Rome by train, but it's really just a completely different planet. So I get teased sometimes because, you know, I do order my, you know, cafe Americano, you know, without guilt, without shame. I like to have a little bit more to sip than just, you know, an espresso. And a friend of mine, we were this, you know, it was kind of hilarious. We were out at dinner and we just had this great dinner and the waiter asked us what we wanted for dessert, and my friend John said he wanted a cappuccino. And the waiter, oh, you can't have that.
- [15:51]
Madeline Schwartz
After afternoon.
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Paul Starobin
The waiter looked at him with, you know, horror. I mean, it was unmistakable. And we were with my. An Italian local person who was, you know, kind of taking us to the restaurant. And what appeared to happen was, I think the waiter went back to, you know, literally to kind of confer with his colleagues in the kitchen about whether this was, like, acceptable to bring the cappuccino at this hour of the evening. A clear, you know, sort of violation of the typical, you know, Italian custard. Him not to drink the cappuccino except maybe at breakfast, maybe in the afternoon, at some point, certainly not after dinner. Anyway, they brought him the cappuccino. And it just kind of reinforced for me how, yeah, I mean, this could be true of any culture, but people kind of insist on wanting it their way. So. Okay, enough with that side comment. I think the larger one or question I'd like to pose to you then, because you're. Your comment touched on it, is I think if we think about American power, we can easily, and most people probably think about military power in force, so called hard power. But it's certainly true if we go back to what was once called, I think, and now maybe nostalgically, the American century, that a lot of it was built on, you know, soft power. I mean, I don't know how, you know, when I lived in Europe for a time, I was in graduate school, I don't know how many people I ran into who were reading, you know, Ernest Hemingway. And they thought that he was just this, you know, beacon of American, you know, speak and literature. And I found it a little bit. I'm not a huge Hemingway fan or jazz. You know, this is something that certainly, you know, came out of America and conquered at least parts of the world, or a figure like James Baldwin who escaped, wanted to escape America, both on account of his black skin and also his sexual identity. And he headed to Paris. And so there's this kind of long history of that. Is that all, do you think, reversing itself? I mean, is the American sort of the soft side of this? The Popular culture no longer having the kind of sway that it once did. I'm not sure exactly where you live in France, but you might be able to attest to that yourself.
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Madeline Schwartz
Well, I definitely think it's changing. And one of the reasons that I think it's so easy for Americans to be blind to the rest of the world is in part because it often kills. So much of the world is reflecting what they see back to them. And that's certainly true with the culture. And even in this book, we actually have an essay that's a slightly different topic, but there's an essay from Argentina about the Argentine fascination with the dollar. And part of that has to do with a particular history of the Argentine economy. But she also talks about how the dollar became in the Argentine imagination, just this complete fantasy that, you know, Diego Maradona, the soccer player, you know, had to be bought in dollars, and people would have dollar parties where people wore dollar outfits and. And you see that, you know, it once was that American culture and all things American had much more appeal than they do now. I do think that that's changing, you know, for many reasons, not only political, but also because there is a desire among so many people in different parts of the world to see culture that, you know, reflects their reality and not the. The American reality. When I. When I was growing up, so I'm half French, and I grew up between the US And France, and when I would go to school in France, the biggest question that I would always get from everyone I met was, what are the lockers like in American high schools? Because if you see any TV show, people are always congregating around the lockers and opening their lockers, and they have secret things in lockers and pictures of their crush. And, you know, French schools just don't have lockers. And it was a huge source of fascination for everyone that I would talk to and I'd have to talk about my locker and at my old school and that sort of thing. Now in France, there's strong movements to make sure that a large amount of the culture that people consume is French and produced in France. And even when one looks at a larger company like Netflix, like a lot of Netflix's recent success, has been making films and series in different parts of the world where, you know, the production costs are often cheaper and where they can also appeal to, you know, viewers interests outside of the US and so that's definitely changing.
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Paul Starobin
Yeah, yeah. And where in France did you grow up?
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Madeline Schwartz
In Paris.
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Paul Starobin
Okay. So, yeah. Which is kind of its own place Very much within France, right?
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Madeline Schwartz
Yeah. I mean, as any big city is.
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Paul Starobin
Right. So you mentioned the one on Argentina, and I thought I would just read from the first paragraph. I thought this was kind of. I don't know. I've been to Argentina, but I'm not intimately acquainted with this relationship with the dollar. But in any case, the author is Lucia Trollakian Herrera and begins Argentina's obsession with dollars as its own language. Arbolitos, little trees, sell dollars illegally in what is known as the blue market. They deliver the bills to your doorstep or meet you at Cuevas Caves Crocantes. Crunchies are bundles of cash that have been stashed away for so long they are stiff with age. Other cash is known as verdes, green ones. Caragrande are bills with a large face, quote, unquote. The bigger portrait on newer bills, carachicas, small face bills, although they retain their value in the United States and elsewhere, are worth less in Argentina's local markets. I mean, it's just like. It's like a little story out of Borges or something. I mean, this incredibly kind of intricate, interwoven relationship to the dollar. Yes.
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Madeline Schwartz
And one that goes. I mean, that piece was really interesting to work on because we published something on. Lucia wrote something for us on the dollar in 2023 or 2024. And then when we were putting together the book, we asked her to revisit that. And during that time, obviously, Argentine politics had really changed with the rise of Milei, the ultra libertarian, now leader of Argentina, who was very close with Trump. And one of the campaign promises that Milei had made was to dollarize the Argentine economy and basically bring dollars that had been in the black market into more official circulation. And so what had started for us as this sort of. When we had first worked on the piece, it had just been sort of an interesting anecdote or facet of Argentine culture, actually became a huge political issue there. And not only there, also in the United States, given how involved we now are with the Argentine, with the Argentine economy.
- [23:54]
Paul Starobin
Right? Yes, absolutely. That's a story that will still very much in motion. I guess we don't know where that will. And I was also thinking about the issue of language, because it often strikes me when I'm abroad that particularly in a large city, a fair number of the people are going to be able to speak English and can communicate with you on that basis. And then if they go and visit America, those people will also basically be able to understand the language, what's going on around them for the Most part. But in my experience, not that many Americans, relatively speaking, are able to speak the language of the country that they're visiting or living in. And I know how hard that can be. I mean, I lived in Russia for four years. I was 40 years old. I had daily language tutoring, but I was there as a journalist. I had so many other things to do. It was, you know, it was pretty, pretty tough. But it strikes me this is also sort of one of the premiums that Americans get when they go abroad is that they feel like they often don't have to speak the native language because other people will. But your correspondence, the people writing are, I assume, virtually all of them bilingual at the very least. So that would kind of give them a different perspective.
- [25:29]
Madeline Schwartz
Oh, absolutely. And one of the things that we do at the Dial, which is very unique, is that a third of what we publish is in translation. And translators are very important to the way that we work. And so sometimes that's an original piece by someone who is not going to be able to write in English. And actually two of the essays in this book are in translation. One from a Cuban writer and one from a writer in Gaza. And I think that being able to bring in those perspectives and not limiting oneself to the range of work that's available in English is really important because obviously, if you are not speaking someone else's language, you can't know what they say or think. One of the other things that we do just in our magazine is that we work with publications around the world to bring their work into English. And so we'll license a piece and translate it and often add important context. And that has brought us some of our, I would say, most interesting and unusual articles, often well before they're, like, discovered. And here you can't see me, Paul, when I'm air quoting discovered by the English speaking press. I mean, we published last year by an Italian journalist, Marzio Mian. So this is not in the book, though it might have been, because it's so interesting, but about the Kushner family's investment in Albania, where they're hoping to basically take the last preserved island of the Mediterranean and turn it into a luxury resort. And we published that piece last year when hardly anyone in the US was paying attention to it. Of course, now that story where the end of June 2026 has become a huge part of Albanian politics and a huge part of how the world is reacting to the investments by the Trump and the Kushner family. So I think being able to work across different Languages, being able to work with translators who are seeing things and reading things in different languages and bring that work into English is really important just for knowing what's happening in the world.
- [27:41]
Paul Starobin
Yeah. I mean, language is, I think, still one of the dimensions of power, maybe soft power that doesn't get spoken about enough. And this is one reason, and I'd be interested in your feeling about this, that I still haven't really completely written off America in that sense as a kind of global power or influence, because I don't really see any other languages that are gaining. I mean, you could say China, but, you know, it's just that China is such a huge country, so you would expect, you know, Mandarin Chinese to some degree, you know, more people will be learning. But I don't really see a competitor, you know, a serious competitor to the English language out there. I mean, do you?
- [28:34]
Madeline Schwartz
Maybe not yet, though. I don't really know that that's necessarily something that benefits the United States in and of itself. Which is to say, for example, I teach journalism at Sciences Po, which is a large university in Paris, and I have students. They have an English language program. But most of my students are not native English speakers. They'll be from all over the place. I've had Ukrainian students, Turkish students, really German students. And they are communicating. Obviously, the language of the master's program is English. And also the language that's, you know, their lingua franca, so to speak, is English. But it's really more out of necessity than anything else. I don't think they're coming to it with any great love of the language or American culture. It's mainly that, you know, English is very prevalent, and it's a relatively easy language to learn. And I would say that looking at those students, then when they enter the job market, they just have a tremendous advantage over young Americans who only know English because they're already entering the job market with two, sometimes three or four languages, as opposed to in the United States, where we're so convinced that everyone will speak English that we often barely manage to learn anything else.
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Paul Starobin
Yeah, no, I agree. And just my own comment about the language is it's not necessarily saying that they're in love with the English language or that they somehow prefer it to whatever language they grew up with, but just the fact that it could be an advantage for practical reasons in a job market or whatever, just to me, suggests that there really is no competitor. My wife's family is from Tashkent in Uzbekistan, and a lot of her friends, people she grew up with, have kind of moved out beyond Uzbekistan. And virtually all of them, no matter where they're living, can speak pretty good English. So just an observation, I'm not sure really where that goes. I wanted to ask you about South Africa because that I thought was an interesting essay as well. This one is by Eve for me, so I'll let you describe it. But South Africa kind of, it doesn't usually get a lot of discussion in America. But speaking of Trump, he kind of has fixated on this idea of the Africanas, I guess, as a kind of oppressed group within South Africa who might would be welcome inside of America as opposed to all the people that he very much wants to keep out.
- [31:20]
Madeline Schwartz
Yeah. So Eve Fairbanks, she's actually a rare American in this book who's been living in South Africa for something like 15 years. And she wrote a beautiful book on South Africa called the Inheritors, which is in large part about the aftermath to apartheid. And when we were talking to her about putting together this project, she was really interested in writing about the American right's obsession with South Africa and in particular about the idea that is often promoted on the right that life for white people was better under apartheid in South Africa. And what she writes about is that essentially, obviously white people were not apartheid intended victims, nor were they the people who suffered the most, but that life under apartheid was also bad for white people in South Africa because living in a police state is bad ultimately for everyone who lives under it. And she says, you know, the message from South African South Africans to Americans is, you know, if this is the direction that you're going in, you won't like it. And it's a really thought provoking and, and fascinating essay. And, and what we've seen is that, you know, even in the time that we've worked on it, you know, Trump's policies about, about essentially white South Africans have only taken up a larger and larger part of the, the Republican Party agenda. And even now, if I'm not mistaken, you know, basically the only people who can seek refugee status in the United States are essentially white South Africans over the exclusion of every other person who might have very good reason to want to come here.
- [33:13]
Paul Starobin
Yeah, that might be true. I can't say that I know that for sure, but absolutely, the Trump White House and Trump himself have, maybe Tucker Carlson, if I have that right, have sort of celebrated this. Yeah. These, these. Or have made these Africanas, this example of supposedly the, you know, the forces that have global forces that have gathered against white people. And so yeah.
- [33:44]
Madeline Schwartz
And one of the things that she talks about is that, you know, actually, many, many, you know, many, many white people fled South Africa during apartheid, even though on paper, this was the system that was meant to support them. Just because it was so unbearable, so violent, there were so many restrictions on what a person could do or say or learn that they wanted to leave. And so I think she's really trying to go against this fantasy that is promoted by so many thinkers on the right about what South Africa was like.
- [34:20]
Paul Starobin
Yeah. And I mean, you wonder about also how this will all play out in the era after Trump, whenever that is, which kind of goes back to the issue of continuity. And as you and I exchanged in a note before we agreed to do this conversation, there really is a long history here. You could say that de Tocqueville, back in, I guess it was the 1820s, 30s, and Jacksonian America, was sort of the first prominent sort of foreigner, in his case, to come here and comment on America. But there were also, I mean, Charles Dickens came here, and he kind of hated things. I think it was Francis Trollope who, you know, Americans who are like, you know, in their. Using their spittoons, I think, as I recall, dimly disgusted her. And then, you know, there were many others who came and saw America as this great sort of motor force for futurity, for the future. De Tocqueville, I should say, I think, in many ways saw America as the future and had a great many positive things. So, yeah, we're left with this kind of ambivalence, I think, that a lot of the foreigners see America with. And yet it's compelling to them. It's just whether they believe that America is exceptional in the sense of being superior, I don't know. Maybe not. But they do see America as a place that is just worthy of a lot of curiosity.
- [36:07]
Madeline Schwartz
Well, obviously, the United States has been the source of so much fascination for people around the world, just given its size and its place in 20th century history. And our team recently put together a list of books that were written about the US from people abroad, and we could only choose eight. And it was really interesting to think about all of these different kinds of thinkers who came to the United States and in order to promote, in order to really understand where the US Gets its power, including its cultural power. But what we were trying to do here was really explore the real ambivalence that so much of the world has about the United States, that it's a place that, on the one hand, really promotes itself as bringing the world ideals of freedom and democracy, and that's obviously how we like to think of ourselves. But on the other hand, an enormous imperial and economic power that has created enormous devastation, you know, within itself and in other parts of the world. And one of the. I think the advantages of having a book that has 12 different authors and 12 different perspectives is you can really get at that sense of ambivalence in a nuanced way.
- [37:38]
Paul Starobin
Right. Yeah. I was finding myself. And perhaps you've done this elsewhere on the Dial, wondering what a Russian in Russia might have to say at this time, because I've lived there and I've been writing about Russia for a long time, so I'm always curious what the Russians think of us as well.
- [38:03]
Madeline Schwartz
Well, maybe there'll be a volume two.
- [38:06]
Paul Starobin
A Volume two. That would be good. Okay. And I'll have you back. Well, on that note, I'm going to wrap up here. This is Paul Stereben for America and beyond. And my guest has been Madeline Schwartz, the founder and editor in chief of the Dial. And the book is How We See it, the World Looks at America in the Age of Trump. So thank you, Madeline.
- [38:30]
Madeline Schwartz
Thank you, Paul.
- [38:43]
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