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- [00:00]
Paul Stereben
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Jane Levy
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Paul Stereben
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- [00:23]
Marshall Po
45% off with minimum purchase plus a free professional measure. Rules and restrictions may apply. Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New.
- [01:37]
Paul Stereben
Hello everyone, I'm Paul Stereben and welcome to America and beyond in the New Books Network. My guest today is Jane Levy. She's the author of a New York Times bestsellers, the Big Babe, the World he created the Last Mickey Mantle and the End of America's Childhood, Sandy A Lefty's Legacy and the comic novel Squeeze Play. Also staff writer at the Washington Post from 1979 to 1988. Today we are going to be discussing Jane's new book, Make Me I Know what's Wrong with Baseball and how to Fix It. Welcome, Jane, to America and beyond.
- [02:21]
Jane Levy
Thank you, Paul. And please go check out Truro. It's okay to go north of, you know, of Orleans.
- [02:27]
Paul Stereben
Yes, we're in Orleans. Jane and I share an affection for the Orleans Firebirds of the Cape Cod Baseball League, where we like to bring our dogs and have a lot of fun and watch a little bit of real baseball and soak up the Americana.
- [02:45]
Jane Levy
Exactly right.
- [02:46]
Paul Stereben
Is that fair?
- [02:48]
Jane Levy
Yeah. I mean, it's my home away from home. That field, it is so idyllic. It is so perfectly baseball, which, believe it or not, is something that Al Leiter. I wouldn't have expected that out of him, but it's what he has to say. He's a friend of Coach Kelly Nixon Nicholson's, and he comes every summer to address the troops, whoever they may be. Each year, as people may or may not know, it's a new team every year. If you have one guy, it comes back. It's a lot. And one time when I was there, I mean, he was railing on analytics. I mean, I put it all in the book as best I could, but he's got verbal overflow of a serious variety and it's wonderful to listen to. He has sound effects and everything. The sound of fastball makes it. I mean, it's the curveball and the splitter anyway. But, you know, he says it's a. You know, he used to bring his kid Jack, the pitcher for the Rangers up there when he was 10 years old. And it was something he did every year with his family. And now that they're all too old to go with him, he goes by himself. He has to make a pilgrimage to the Cape Cod League and see Coach, Coach Nicholson.
- [04:07]
Paul Stereben
It's a lot of fun. Okay, well, we're going to back into this a little bit, but I'd like to just start first with. Why don't we just go with one of your ideas, which is to wrap plexiglass around the outfield wall at every ballpark the way they do at NHL arenas, until each stands 18ft high. So, as a Boston Red Sox fan, you're going to have to explain to me what this would do, for example, to the Green Monster.
- [04:37]
Jane Levy
Well, it's not going to do anything to the Green Monster. You can't mess with a Green Monster. No, I'm talking about the low walls that are the province of all these cheap home runs that everybody's sitting at Yankee Stadium where it's equally low and even closer than the pesky pole is. And I mean, with these guys jacked up the way they are and taught the launch angle swing and to go for home runs, every swing, you know, they've become a dime a dozen. Frankly, I never thought I would ever agree with Alex Rodriguez, but in the middle of the playoffs last year, I think it was one of the Red Sox Yankees games afterwards, he said, you know, home runs are boring. And I think I said exactly that in the book. I don't even look up anymore. It's got to be a 500 foot homerun. For me to want to bother to notice because they're ubiquitous. It used to be an event and not the entire goal of every swing. And so if you want what people. If you want to achieve what people have told MLB they want and which MLB is talking about, they're talking about another solution that I think is horrific, about lines on the outfield that you have to hit that outfielders can stand at in order to encourage doubles and triples. This would encourage doubles and triples, right?
- [06:06]
Paul Stereben
Well, right. But let's think that through, because if that's the case, and if it, you know, we're in the world, of course, where anything can be imagined or proposed, would that also mean. Do you think that the clubs would invest more in players with speed who can, you know, players, you know, like. My favorite, of course, is Duran for the Red Sox, who can actually motor around the bases and who would hit an amazing amount of triples were that rule to be implemented.
- [06:34]
Jane Levy
I'm. I'm advocating for non big lug baseball. So, I mean, yes, I think the whole point is, and it's kind of intriguing, and I actually, you know, Dan Okren and I spend a lot of time at Eldridge park together, and we had a big fight. Whose idea was this, his or mine? He claims it, so. Okay, I'll give it to Dan.
- [06:55]
Paul Stereben
Explain who Dan is, just to back that up.
- [06:57]
Jane Levy
Dan Okart was the. One of the. Well, he's a great baseball writer. He was the guy who invented Rotisserie league baseball and thereby caused all this.
- [07:07]
Paul Stereben
Yes, that's right. That's another important point we can get into. But, okay, so you're sitting at the park and he mentions this, and we're.
- [07:14]
Jane Levy
Going through our ideas of what to do, and he says, 18 foot, you know, Plexiglas wall around every low wall in every park. And look, you could try it for five years and see what happens, Right? You could do an experiment. If you put them on, they can be taken off if it doesn't accomplish what you want. What you want is to encourage doubles and triples and therefore develop and draft players with speed and with arms in the outfield. I mean, have you ever seen a play more compelling? Maybe he didn't see it. I didn't see it. But, you know, I've gone back and looked at it. Then Clemente's throw from the outfield against Baltimore.
- [08:02]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, well, one of my favorites was. I forget the year, but Mookie Betts, when he was with the Red Sox, he nailed some guy at third base, you know, from right. It was just like you could watch it again and again. And it was. It was like ballet or something. The way he. He turned, he pivoted. It's just everything was in one fluid motion. And the throw was perfect. And it was just. Yeah, it was the thing you remember about that season almost, it was right.
- [08:29]
Jane Levy
And also his catch in 2018 in the outfield, Ronnie was playing right field for the Dodgers against the Red Sox. And I remember thinking it was so unusual because they don't run for balls so much anymore. Why? Because they're positioned with little things in their caps, right? Little index cards telling them where to play. But in this instance, he actually had to run for the ball and he made what used to be called a shoestring catch. And it was beautiful. I think that what's happened in part to baseball is people have this idea that it's not exciting because the most exciting things have been leeched of it by all the new rules and all the technology that has taught players ways to play that are the least enticing part of the game.
- [09:22]
Paul Stereben
Right. Well, although a standard rap, and you get into this in your book, is that the game got too long, so they did the pitch clock, which you accept, but the whole Ghost runner thing, now that's something that will explain your position on the Ghostrunner.
- [09:39]
Jane Levy
Well, the Ghostrunner was put in, it's also known as the Manford man, from my predecessor, Rob Manfred. I was put in in 2020 because of COVID And as Mike Rizzo said to me tactfully, you know, well, I said, what do you think? Because after I think I asked him this in 24, he said, well, let's just say it was the right rule for 2020. So the rule is, of course, for those who don't know, that if the game goes into extra innings, the last man who had been at bat for the team, now at bat again, gets to start the game that inning at second base, which is. It's an absolute derogation of everything that baseball ever was. Baseball is premised on the idea, and it's a very American idea that you have to earn your way around the bases. And the fact that you can now short circuit that. And what that does is it cheats people of the excitement. Take a look at this year's World Series, for example, the 18 inning game and the 11 inning game. But it also forces a team that is built to slug, like say the Yankees, to play a kind of baseball. They can't play, they stink. I mean, have you ever seen you know, Aaron Judge or Giancarlo try to choke up and go the other way. I mean, it's absurd and it's unfair. It's, you know, it's just, it's. And it's boring. So I did the research, I looked it up. I, you know, checked with MLB stats. You know, 75% of all extra inning games end in the 10th inning or after the 10th inning. So it's like preemptive legislation. And now that there's the pitch clock, which has taken so much time off each game, it's also unnecessary. So Roger Angell, the great and late writer for the New Yorker, poetry editor and writer, who was the most magnificent baseball writer other than maybe Red Smith, I think, said to me, please, God, I talked to him not long before he died about this and he, needless to say, hey, did the ghost runner, he said, can we at least go to the 13th inning? Well, you recommend at least going to the 13th inning. And so I understand that modern travel and planes and cross country scheduling has made it a much more complicated thing to get in and out of town at the end of a series. I get that. And so while I think it's sacrificing something essential to end the games by the 13th, I would settle for that. That's my recommendation.
- [12:42]
Paul Stereben
I mean, I can see it both. I can. I mean, I'll cop to something when I'm watching the Red Sox, let's say they're out in, you know, on the coast and Seattle or whatever, and it's getting really late, the game is tired and I'm barely, you know, I'm 68 years old now. I'm barely able to, you know, keep, keep the eyes open. I am kind of wishing that at some point somebody will just win and.
- [13:03]
Jane Levy
You know, but it doesn't happen that often necessarily.
- [13:07]
Paul Stereben
You. I know, but you're sort of thinking like, oh my God, is this. You know, and, and all the arms are exhausted and the players don't look very happy and all that kind of stuff. So I can kind of understand why.
- [13:20]
Jane Levy
You know, they don't work that hard. Come on, playing baseball, it's. You get over yourselves. You know, play the game. The game was defined. It was.
- [13:31]
Paul Stereben
I'm looking more of the. Well, Jay, what about the kids? You're a big kids person. What about the kids at the park?
- [13:37]
Jane Levy
Kids aren't staying up to watch games at three in the morning anyway in the Red Sox territory to watch them play the Angels. I mean, first of all, the games against the Angels are Useless. But I mean, they're not staying up anyway, so let's be real.
- [13:53]
Paul Stereben
Well, my dog is looking at me like, aren't you going to take me outside? You know, it's my nighttime walk. Yeah. So it's like we all just want to kind of go to bed. You know, it's a long season.
- [14:05]
Jane Levy
I understand that. But, you know, the fact, and this is a Dan Okren quote, the fact that they don't use the ghost runner in the post season tells you everything you need to know about what's wrong with it.
- [14:18]
Paul Stereben
Well, I also agree with that. It would have been horrible to have that implemented in the postseason.
- [14:24]
Jane Levy
But, you know, where it really matters.
- [14:26]
Paul Stereben
I guess you can make that distinction between where it really matters and where it doesn't matter. You know, 162 games or whatever. I guess he want to shorten the season, too. You know, it's. You can't say it's like, you know, the NFL where what, it's like 17 regular season games or something.
- [14:42]
Jane Levy
Well, but it's, it's, you know. Yeah, they make that, you know, equation and add it up and divide it a zillion ways. Yes. The NFL season is shorter in terms of numbers of games. You know, you can't, you can't batter people any more than they already do. Right. You see that game last night? The walking wounded, you know, parading.
- [15:04]
Paul Stereben
I did. I'm a big Patriots fan. It was, it was a war of attrition. Baseball is, is. I mean, football really is war. So that's a different thing. Baseball is, is not.
- [15:14]
Jane Levy
Right. And baseball. That's why we love it, because it's not modeled, it's not modeled on the.
- [15:19]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, well, I like both, but I. But baseball is the sport that is closest to my heart, without question.
- [15:26]
Jane Levy
Right. And it's not about conquering and acquiring territory.
- [15:30]
Paul Stereben
Well, unless we're playing the Yankees.
- [15:33]
Jane Levy
Come on.
- [15:34]
Paul Stereben
I've been in the Yankee. I've been in Yankee Stadium as a Red Sox fan. And I've been, of course, at Fenway as a resident, you know, and I've heard all the horrible stuff on both sides, which I think is, you know, not, not really that great, actually.
- [15:47]
Jane Levy
Well, I also think that, you know, I think it's a little specious of Red Sox fans to keep talking still about the evil empire. Thank you, Larry Lucchino, for that.
- [15:59]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, well, I agree. I agree.
- [16:00]
Jane Levy
I mean, it's like you guys don't spend money. I mean, come on, you didn't for a bunch of years, which was Shameful, bluntly said. But, you know, they're just as much of an empire, so let's get over that.
- [16:15]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, absolutely. Right. Okay, we got off that topic. So, okay, we've mentioned two ideas and sort of at the foundation of this is the whole thing with analytics. And I mean, isn't that really the core kind of foundational complaint you have about modern baseball?
- [16:36]
Jane Levy
I don't hate, revile, or reject all analytics. Okay. I think that they are deviously accomplished. I think they are. The guys who create this stuff, these smart computer nerds are always, you know, the guy who was last picked for the Little league team, you know, who are basically running the game now. Right. You know, it's. It's a fantasy. What would I do if I was 6 foot 2? Right. And, you know, who would I trade? You know, this is, this is the premise of Rotisserie League, is that you could be the general manager. And today's general managers grew up playing fantasy sports and Rotisserie baseball. That's how they learn.
- [17:26]
Paul Stereben
Oh, we've always had the baseball card culture, though. I thought, even as a Kid, again, I'm 68, I liked baseball cards, but I wasn't so obsessive about every little, every number that's on the card and so forth. It's more like it seems to kind of detract from the whole of the player.
- [17:46]
Jane Levy
Yeah, I agree with you, but the whole of the player doesn't matter anymore. That's the problem. So the thing about analytics is, okay, it can inform decisions that you make. But I brought Peko Hosoy, who is a professor at MIT and a certifiable genius. She created the MIT Sports Analytics Lab, which is quasi public and academic institutions.
- [18:19]
Paul Stereben
Are they the ones who say there's no such thing as a rising fastball?
- [18:23]
Jane Levy
No, they didn't say that. No, I mean, you know, that was Robert Adair back in. He was a Yalie back in the early. What did he do? Everybody says there's no such thing.
- [18:35]
Paul Stereben
I know. I guess there isn't. I thought that was an MIT guy, but whatever.
- [18:39]
Jane Levy
No. Well, anyway, long and short of it is she. The point she makes is that the people who are brilliant in the way of computer science and data science and who create most of these algorithms are very smart and very good at what they do, but they don't have what's called in data science, domain knowledge. In short, they don't know shit about baseball. And so they can tell you what is likely to happen nine times out of ten and therefore say since this is the most likely outcome, you shouldn't do X or Y or Z that will produce that outcome again if that means striking out. But they can't predict what's going to happen the 10th time because the 10th time hasn't happened. And baseball is about what hasn't happened. You know, it's Joe Torre always cited and I quote him on this. So there's a zillion examples of Raj Davis hitting a home run off Aroldis Chapman as a rookie. Chapman was a rookie playing for the Cubs in 2016, seventh game of the World Series. Now, Rajay Davis was the center fielder that day and he had hit all of 12 home runs for the then Cleveland Indians. You know, you wouldn't have, in the analytic world, you would have hit for him, right. You would not have let him go up there. But instead you have this guy who has no power coming up and hitting that home run.
- [20:13]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, yeah. Well, you, well you mentioned the, the Blake Snell example, which at the time, I mean, you can, you know, that, that just, that killed me. I was almost ready to like.
- [20:26]
Jane Levy
Or Rojas hitting the home run against, against the Jays in this last World Series.
- [20:33]
Paul Stereben
But, but, but Blake Snell, just remember that was what, what he was, he had like a two hitter or something going or. Yeah, but, but he hadn't, you know, it was fifth or sixth inning. He was.
- [20:43]
Jane Levy
Sixth inning.
- [20:44]
Paul Stereben
Yeah. And the, the manager who has a. Kevin Cash comes out and takes him out. And, and, and what did Cash say? This is the quote, right? What did he say? He said, you don't care about, you don't know about winning or.
- [20:58]
Jane Levy
That, you know, this isn't the old days where you put, you know, the, the ball in the starter shoe and say, go get them, it's your game. You know. He said, fuck that. You know, we're about winning. So all year, based on the statistics, they had taken Snell out no matter what he was doing in the sixth inning because the history showed that, you know, he got clobbered or he faltered or whatever third time through the order. Well, again, you know, it's the difference between letting your eyes and your baseball judgment inform a decision and just adhering to the numbers.
- [21:41]
Paul Stereben
Now you have a fix it rule that is related to this. Maybe not that situation exactly, but it has to do with if you've got like a no hitter going or. What is that about?
- [21:55]
Jane Levy
Well, that the best example. And there's a, I don't know, maybe the most important, I don't know, it's the most Important. But the Clayton Kershaw game back in 2022, he had been injured, arm, you know, injury, hadn't been able to pitch in the 21 playoffs for the Dodgers, and who of course, had won the tainted 2020 Covid era World Series. And he comes out and that's the year of the lockout. So spring training was short and he hadn't had much time to prepare, didn't have many innings in his arm. And the decision had been made beforehand how many innings and how many pitches he was going to be allowed. And they're playing in Minnesota and it's cold, and it was a particularly weak Twins lineup and he mowed them down. I mean, he was in complete control. He had a perfect game after seven innings. And rather than stop and say, hmm, you know, he's got six outs to go, and wouldn't this be something? You know, they just did the reflexive. We said we were going to take him out. And they did. And A.J. ellis, who was his catcher for most of the time they were together with the Dodgers, said, the problem with baseball is there's no situational dexterity. You know, there's no ability in that seventh inning for a manager to say, wait a minute, you know, maybe in this case at least give him another five pitches. Let's see what happens in the eighth inning. Maybe he walks somebody. Great. Then you take him out. Well, maybe he gives up a, you know, a cheap single and then you take him out. Perfect game.
- [23:48]
Paul Stereben
This happens like how many times over, like a 20 year period?
- [23:52]
Jane Levy
Yeah, I don't, you know, I don't memorize statistics. I look them up, so I get them right, but not much. And the majority, not the majority, but a good hefty percentage of them have occurred in the analytic era, interestingly enough. But anyway, so Davey takes Dave, Dave Roberts takes him out. And I said to him, I said, dave. And I Clearly he regretted it later, but he did what he was told. He said, I have to answer to bosses and what if he had been injured and we needed him? And I go, yeah, but here's the thing. If you're wanting to sell baseball, which clearly they should be thinking about doing, you wake up the next morning and to a headline that says, clayton Kershaw, the greatest left handed pitcher of his generation, who's done everything there is to do in baseball except throw a perfect game, came out and threw a perfect game in his first outing of 2022, that would say to a reader or a listener, you know, hmm, I'd like to see One of those. Maybe I'll go out to the ballpark.
- [25:01]
Paul Stereben
Yeah. I mean, had they done that to Chris Sale when he was with the Red Sox and it was within the realm of possib possibility, he could have be working on a curve, I would have. That would have been just unforgivable.
- [25:12]
Jane Levy
And that's what happens all the time. The decisions made beforehand based on numbers and then the judgment factor, what your eyes tell you. And you know, these guys have watched gazillion.
- [25:26]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, yeah, they know. They know. One of the strengths of your book, by the way, is that you, you have on the record lots of people who say, I mean, I thought Dave Roberts, I'm glad you mentioned him. Of course, he's a hero to me because he stole second base, you know, Right. Against the, against your Yankees. But he is really a pretty honest, you know, unvarnished guy in voice in your book. Right. I mean, he. Yeah, I love gets all this stuff.
- [25:55]
Jane Levy
He does. And yet, you know, and he'll say, but I have to answer to upstairs, which is.
- [26:00]
Paul Stereben
Which is honest. They're paying his salary.
- [26:04]
Jane Levy
But I said to him, wouldn't it have been better if the headline the next day had been Kershaw comes out and throws this perfect game, rather than, oh, Clayton Kershaw comes out and Dave Roberts and the Dodgers have decided beforehand that he's not allowed to try for perfect game. Which is why Bill Lee, the great Billy, your guy Bill Lee, who I have. I owe him a call. He called. Yeah.
- [26:30]
Paul Stereben
It struck me out on a fastball once.
- [26:31]
Marshall Po
Yep.
- [26:34]
Jane Levy
It must have been a really slow fastball.
- [26:36]
Paul Stereben
It was pretty slow, but it was fast enough.
- [26:40]
Jane Levy
He called me that next morning, he said, did you see that? Did you see that? And I went, yes, I saw that. And he was crying. And I said, spaceman, why are you crying? And he said, because the guy didn't get a chance to find out how good could be.
- [26:56]
Paul Stereben
Well, Bill is the ultimate romantic. But isn't your beef, though, really not so much with Roberts, but who is it now? Andrew Friedman. Yeah, you know, the guy, the baseball operations guy for the Dodgers.
- [27:10]
Jane Levy
Yeah. And I think you started to see some changes this year, whether it was forced upon the Dodgers and the Yankees because they have such terrible bullpens because the methodology of pitching today is so corrosive and damaging to elbows, or whether there's actually some thinking going on, I'm not sure. But the fact that, for example, in the series against the Red Sox, that Cam Schlitler, the young Yankee right hander, that nobody had Heard of, was sent back out in the eighth inning when he'd come down. And everybody looks in the dugout to see whether he gets the pat on the back, meaning, you know, you're done for the day, and goes down the tundra steps to the tunnel or the dugout. And this time, Aaron fucking Boone sends him back out. Now, I don't know whether that was defiance. I haven't had a chance to ask of norms or whether that was forced upon him because they had nobody in the bullpen. I mean, their bullpen sucked all year, and I don't know. But there was a roar in the ballpark, not just for the kid getting the chance, as Bill Lee would have said, but because it's what fans want to see. And I think it was Buster Olney calling the game for espn, who said, this is fans saying this is the kind of pitching we want to see.
- [28:45]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, well, we all remember those kind. I mean, Billy Rohr for the Red Sox.
- [28:50]
Jane Levy
How about Yamamoto for the Dodgers?
- [28:52]
Paul Stereben
Wow, Yamamoto. That was.
- [28:54]
Jane Levy
That was scary, I think. You know, wouldn't it be something if the Japanese pitchers, the Japanese players, taught us something about the American game that we've been reluctant to hear?
- [29:06]
Paul Stereben
Well, it's crazy. Have you been to games in Japan?
- [29:10]
Jane Levy
No, I have not.
- [29:10]
Paul Stereben
I went to one with my family. It was an amazing. It was almost like a World cup experience or something where, I mean, the rising. The sides have these huge banners and they're like roaring the entire time. And it's like, just like it was in Tokyo. Non stop noise, really. I don't know, just. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but it was really quite an experience. But they do seem to have the discipline down, right? I mean, many of these players that are coming from Japan, and Yamamoto has.
- [29:42]
Jane Levy
A training methodology that allowed him to come back that next game and pitch two days in a row. Now, the only one I can think of who did that prior was, again, it was Randy Johnson in 2001 World Series against the Yankees. And before that it would have been Koufax in 65, you know, pitching three games, two on two days rest. And, you know, and you ask, why do people think baseball is boring? Because analytics have given rise to a culture in which those things are not allowed.
- [30:21]
Paul Stereben
Yeah. How do you situate Theo Epstein in the whole kind of planetarium of analytics? Because he's often said, like, oh, yeah, there's the genius who has Red Sox, Cubs and so forth. I mean, how do you situate Theo?
- [30:36]
Jane Levy
Well, certainly he was a prime mover in. In all of this. I mean, that's why he hired Bill James to, you know, to provide statistics and data and equations and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah for the. For the Red Sox. But he's also the guy who was hired by Manfred to head the committee to get the new rules. And, you know, I think he felt after, you know, time passed and things, you know, that it got out of hand, that it was again, that it was a situation where what players and managers now refer to as the human element, you know, had been squashed. Nobody is allowed to make a decision, you know, just based on what they know, you know, you don't think Dusty Baker knows as much, know one of those, you know, nerds up there with his computer? I think he does. I really think he does. And, you know, the subversion of that human element has rendered it, you know, has neutered managers. And it's. There's an example on there. Joe Madden, you know, when he was briefly the Angels manager before he got canned in 2022 for telling Perry Menasian where to go. That's the general manager who's inexplicably still there. You know, he. He sent somebody to tell Joe Madden the middle of a game to take Mike Trout out of the lineup. You know, if you want to know what's different about baseball, you know, and the coaches were, you know, dressing in the clubhouse. You know, there used to be a line between uniform personnel and upstairs people, and there isn't anymore. And, you know, why would the coaches feel entitled to do that? Because they think they're running the game. They're as important as the players.
- [32:37]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, it gets tough. I mean, you know, with someone like Theo, hear everything he's saying. At the same time, I ask myself, you know, would the Red Sox have won in 2004 after, you know, 500,000 years of not winning without a guy like. I mean, I'm sure Cubs fans would probably say the same thing about Theo. So it's kind of like, analytics are good when it helps your team, but on the whole, it kind of sucks.
- [33:04]
Jane Levy
Well, I mean, I mentioned Clemente throw from that world series was 79. I think it was. Or was it 71? I'm not doing this for. I apologize. But the Dave Roberts steel that you talked about, you talk about plays that are unexpected and things that are human that are different, and the difference between today and then that Dave Roberts steele is one of those examples of the last time something happened in a game of incredible consequence that was so unexpected. And that's what's missing.
- [33:45]
Paul Stereben
Yeah. Well, not to get too highfalutin about it, but it occurs to me is the argument here essentially kind of what C.P. snow just described as kind of a collision between two cultures, the humanities culture and the science culture. Because it sounds like you're kind of a romantic and I am, too. And a lot of people, the best people who write about baseball, I think, tend to fall in that category as well. But then you get these sort of cold hard guys on the other side who are the science guys, and they say, yeah, well, look how our team is doing. So that seems to be almost an unbridgeable conflict in general, except that I.
- [34:28]
Jane Levy
Think in this post season you started to see some, you can't say regression, because I don't think it's a regression, but you started to see decisions being made either, despite analytics, because they know everything. You know, they know everything. But maybe they're starting to say, okay, the guy says he can pitch, Yamamoto says he can go out there again. We have no bullpen. Okay, let's do that. You're going to send training back out there. He should be buried somewhere.
- [35:06]
Paul Stereben
While the Red Sox brought in Chris Sale to finish off the Dodgers in the series in 2018. And you know, one of my. The great moment was to see Manny Machado on his knees, you know, slayed by a Chris Sale. You know, I think it was a slider and it was just awesome. I mean, it was. What possible better ending could there have been to a World Series? If you're a Red Sox fan or I would say just if you really enjoy that kind of, you know, pitcher on hitter baseball.
- [35:32]
Jane Levy
What I'm saying is that analytics should inform decisions, not make the decisions. Because baseball is uniquely a game in which the unexpected is what is the source of the excitement. Doesn't everybody say, go to a baseball game, you might see something you've never seen before. You cannot predict. Analytics cannot predict the gust of wind that carries a ball away from an outfielder. It can't predict the pebble in the infield in the 24 world. 20. Not 2024, but 1924 World Series that made the woeful Washington Senators world champion.
- [36:14]
Paul Stereben
Well, whether I'll get a foul ball, you know, which I never. Which I never have. And you know, except as you know, I. Except, except at Eldridge park, you know, actually my dog has gotten quite a number of foul balls, but that's a different story.
- [36:28]
Jane Levy
Betty is not interested in foul balls. Betty only wants her orange ball. Or when Coach SH Kelly Nicholson throws to her on the infield, her infield practice.
- [36:38]
Paul Stereben
Well, I trained my daughter when she was trainable to chase, you know, get in there in the scrum to get those foul balls. I thought it was, it was kind of good for the, you know, the grit part of her development and push those boys around and get, get that foul ball.
- [36:54]
Jane Levy
Yeah, I always like that.
- [36:56]
Paul Stereben
And you want the kids to come back too, right? Don't you have some ideas about, you know, getting kids?
- [37:02]
Jane Levy
Look, I think Theo would say that what happened to baseball in terms of the analytics and this leads to an answer to your question, is that baseball became kind of rudderless. They saw what was happening, but they just let it happen. There was no visionary who said, well, if we continue along down this path, here's what's likely to happen. There was no analytics guy saying, what's going to happen to baseball if we keep doing it this way.
- [37:33]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, yeah. They don't think in meta terms.
- [37:36]
Jane Levy
Right. Without any intrusion of human thought. So it's not that baseball wasn't changing all the time. It changed. It just changed without a rudder, it was rudderless change. And one of the things that changed is that kids stopped playing baseball. Partly now it's because it's become a country club sport. It's more expensive for parents to put, put kids in baseball, you know, with. Now that you have to play travel ball and club ball.
- [38:08]
Paul Stereben
Yeah. You connect that, by the way, to the whole African American kind of dimension of this.
- [38:12]
Jane Levy
Yeah. Which is, sorry to say the least, but. So kids don't play and they don't get taken to games because somebody told me, who was it? Somebody important? I'll figure, I'll remember in a minute. But somebody, some baseball guy took his granddaughter to a game recently and she said in the fourth inning, grandpa, when does the game start? That's good. And that's because they're not taught the other parts of the game that might have happened. You know, a defensive play maybe or, you know, pitching quality or what. Anyway, the point is kids aren't there. And the odd baseball's audience and it's. It's start. They have data showing that the baseball audience has gotten younger in terms of who's buying season tickets. And the rule changes that Theo shepherded through and that went into effect in 2023 have shortened games and improved the pace of games. It's hard for people to remember this, but in 2022, you had, or maybe it was 2021, you had 3 minutes and 52 seconds of nothing happening between balls put in play. Because the game has been inverted. The whole idea is to not let anybody make contact with a ball as opposed to what it was when I covered the Orioles, and Earl Weaver would say, jesus Christ, let them hit the fucking ball. Your infielders are just standing there getting bored, you know, so it has become a game of keep away, and that is not interesting. So.
- [39:56]
Paul Stereben
And you want more daytime games too, right, for that.
- [39:59]
Jane Levy
So when Jane is commissioner, and by the way, there's a petition online, you know, I would be very happy for people to sign it.
- [40:07]
Paul Stereben
Okay. What would the. The analytics guy would assign how high a probability to that happening?
- [40:13]
Jane Levy
Yeah, that's right. I want to know, you know, or.
- [40:17]
Paul Stereben
Maybe it's on DraftKings. We could bet on it.
- [40:20]
Jane Levy
Oh, yeah. Don't get me going on that. Anyway, in my world, all kids 10 and under, or maybe, as my friend, the baseball economist Michael Halpert says, 5 to age 5 to 12, all of them get in free, accompanied by a sober adult, every baseball game. Baseball's fundamental economic problem is that there's so much inventory, that is games played and seats to sell. You don't have a problem selling out NFL games because there are only 17 of them. Right. And. And the same with the NBA has as many games or has lots of games, but they have small arenas to fill.
- [41:07]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, you sound like an airline, you know, data executive or something.
- [41:12]
Jane Levy
Well, I mean, so when television cameras pan the stands and you see empty swathes of empty seats, what does that tell a viewer? Tells a viewer, nobody's there. Nobody's gone. Why should I go? Right? Let's put kids up there. Michael Halpert did math for me. If a grandpa or a dad or a scout master. I guess I shouldn't use that example, but took kids to the. To a game and every kid had purchased in 2023, a small hot dog, small soda, a small cap, and maybe cotton candy. It would have cost the Chicago cubs all of $4 million.
- [41:57]
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- [42:49]
Paul Stereben
Can we let. Yeah. Can animals cut. Animals come into the game too?
- [42:54]
Jane Levy
Well, they do already. You know, they have bark in the, in the. On the. In the ball field games all the time, but they don't let them run in the outfield.
- [43:04]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, well, I can imagine there are some reasons why, but.
- [43:07]
Jane Levy
Yes, exactly. But you know, the only time I saw Bill Lee in recent memories bend down is when his dog Clarice took a shit in Ryan Field in Fenway that he bit down for. Okay.
- [43:22]
Paul Stereben
Sacrilege.
- [43:24]
Marshall Po
Yeah.
- [43:25]
Jane Levy
But he did pick up anyway, you know, get the kids in there. Let them, you know, it's not going to cost. It's chump change for any of the 30 owners. I don't care how broke they say they are, that's nothing. It's bupkis. And it will pay itself forward, grow a new generation of fans. Because you at age 68 and me at, gasp, 73, you know, we're not going to be climbing those staircases too much longer, you know.
- [43:59]
Paul Stereben
Oh, no. Well, the Red Sox also have some of the highest ticket prices in major league, you know, baseball, so. And the ownership, not to put too fine a point on it, you know, Fenway Sports Group, they're basically like a kind of like a private equity pool of capital. You know, they own the Liverpool club and so forth.
- [44:17]
Jane Levy
And so you wonder, they stole the Penguins.
- [44:19]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, I know they sold the Penguins, but they want to have a basketball franchise in Las Vegas and so forth. So you wonder how much is sort of just greed and capitalism part of this as well? Not to sound all kind of Karl Marx about it, but is that because that's also the era that we're living in sort of socially and culturally, where the people with the biggest dollars are really the winners like never before.
- [44:48]
Jane Levy
Yeah, absolutely. And it's, you know, the corporate ownership as opposed to the family ownership. Now, I don't want to venerate too much, you know, old baseball.
- [45:00]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, well, Tom Yockey would be a very long discussion.
- [45:04]
Jane Levy
Exactly. You know, but let's give them, you know, the old family owned teams at least knew and cared about baseball.
- [45:13]
Paul Stereben
Right. Paternalism at its best.
- [45:16]
Jane Levy
Right. And it's worse because they treated players.
- [45:18]
Paul Stereben
Like, I mean, when it was at it. When it was at its best.
- [45:22]
Jane Levy
Right, Right. Exact. Exactly. So, yes, I think. And the other thing that I.
- [45:26]
Paul Stereben
That's Gone. I mean, right now we've got these huge pools of global capital that invest in sports franchises because, you know, it's a hedge against the stock market or.
- [45:38]
Jane Levy
Because it's a way of getting notoriety when you're. When you make some piece of equipment that services toilets in all of America's stadiums and you'd like to be known for something else.
- [45:48]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, well, I mean, all of that, but bas essentially, you know, capitalism and the profit motive.
- [45:54]
Jane Levy
Well, I think somebody who is an expert in economics, as Mike is, makes a really good point. Capitalism might dictate that this is a wise expenditure. Right. I also think that going back to what people have said about what they want to see in the game, that is starting pitching, that was featured and not diminished. The way it is today behooves us, given the incredible plague of UCLs, tearing the ulnar collateral ligaments and pitching arms, because they're all taught how to pitch to max. Heave with Max.
- [46:36]
Paul Stereben
Yeah. High school guys, Max going well over 90.
- [46:40]
Jane Levy
Yeah. And kids are getting Tommy John surgery preemptively. Well, I'm obviously going to have to have it, so I might as well have it when I'm 16 so I heal better and by the draft. Right. So my idea is, let's create a healthy scratch list, as in hockey, increase the number of pitchers. Who wants to watch somebody else's retread? I can't believe my Yankees just re signed Paul Blackburn for the bullpen. Oh, my God. I know the analytics people think they can fix anybody, but Jesus Christ, that is exactly what's wrong with baseball today. By July, every relief pitcher who's been dumped by the Red Sox has been picked up by the Mets who says, oh, maybe we can make him into something. And it takes two weeks for them to figure out, no, they were right. Red Sox knew what they were talking about. So you have this constant carousel of bad arms and bad people. Pitchers. Who wants to watch that?
- [47:46]
Paul Stereben
So, yeah, the whole bullpen game thing, I can't. You know, when did that even start? I mean, I never. I didn't grow up with bullpen games.
- [47:53]
Jane Levy
Well, that again, you know, would you rather watch Paul Blackburn or Blake training, try to train and try to get an out than, you know, have Koufax versus Gibson.
- [48:06]
Paul Stereben
Yeah. Or, you know.
- [48:08]
Jane Levy
Exactly.
- [48:08]
Paul Stereben
I was the starting pitcher in my, you know, camp. Camp, counsel camp games. And I always thought, you know, I could go more than three innings. You know, it's supposed to be the measure of a pitcher is, you know, you pace. You pace yourself.
- [48:21]
Jane Levy
You or as Sandy Koufax used to say, we didn't know any better. I mean, there are, you know, there are limits that they, that that should be applied. But the 100 pitch thing, which was instituted or recommended, I should say, by Dr. James Andrews, who became the, the foremost Tommy John surgeon after Frank Jobe, who performed the first one on Tommy John in 75, retired. But any. So here's what I'm saying. Let's increase the size of the pitching staff to 15 or 16. The union will love it because it's more jobs. And if the owners do the math and see that, that it's actually worth the two extra salaries or three extra salaries to cut down on the incredible medical expenses. Major League Baseball put out a report last year, just about this time last year in which they said that they had a billion dollars worth of talent sitting on the bench on the injured list. That year in 2024, 2/3 of that were pitchers who couldn't throw. That should tell you something. So as a, you know, it's bad for the arms and it's bad for the game. So. But at the same time, right, we're going to go back to giving a manager 11 pitchers to use per game. You can pick which 11 are best suited for the next game. He knows which, which team he's facing, whether they're left handed or right handed, whether you know what kind of, what kind of pitches they do and don't hit you. You tailor your, your pitching staff for that day.
- [50:17]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, yeah, I hear. Are you worried about dynasties? I mean, you know, you grow, you know, you have your Yankees dynasty, of course, from, from the past, but now, of course, dynasty means the Dodgers. Are you worried about dynasties? Are you more of a parody person?
- [50:33]
Jane Levy
Yes, I am. And I think that again, baseball doesn't know how to sell itself. The marketing of both players and the game itself has been woeful. So when Rob Manfred came out last year, just about sometime in January and said, basically, you know, there's going to be a lockout, you know, when the collective bargaining agreement ends on December 2, 2026, there's going to be a lockout. You should be ready for this. But it's really not such a bad thing because it's kind of like using a 22 rather than a nuclear weapon. I'm thinking, how is that a way to sell a game? You're going into a new season, you're trying to entice people into investing their money and their feelings and their attention in the game, and you're already telling Them don't get too involved because we're going to screw you. That's the inequities. And talk about a capitalist dilemma. People in America don't like to be told you can't spend your money.
- [51:44]
Paul Stereben
I hate it when the sports page, what's left of it, becomes essentially a business story. So my, I mean, I used to, I grew up with box scores. Like give me a box score, you know.
- [51:56]
Jane Levy
I have two suggestions, one from Dan Okrent and one from Michael Halpert. They're pretty similar about how you could put in a non cap cap. The union is never going to accept a cap. It ain't happening. And the only thing I could think of, you know, that might entice them is to cut down the number of years you have to serve before free agency. So instead of it being six years of indentured slavery, say five, four or five, six was an accident, by the way. It wasn't like a great strategy, you know, when they were making that decision, it just kind of happened. But so, yeah, you got to fix.
- [52:38]
Paul Stereben
Somehow the economics or if you're a commissioner, you're going to have to think about a lot of these numbers. I don't know, Jan, you might, might want to get some numbers person who's on your. Well, you know, you could just ride her. We can, you know, get some guy out of Yale or MIT or whatever, but you just make sure, you know, you keep him in line. But he's going to have to look.
- [52:58]
Jane Levy
At all that stuff that came from an unidentified co conspirator, a former unidentified or unindicted.
- [53:08]
Paul Stereben
Right.
- [53:08]
Jane Levy
Unidentified. You know, union guy said, look, we already have a system in place to do this. We have the luxury tax system, you know, but let's make the taxes on the Steve Cohen's and the Andrew Friedman's of the world even higher.
- [53:28]
Paul Stereben
Yeah, even higher. I don't think Steve really cares. I mean, he just makes it up in the market somehow.
- [53:35]
Jane Levy
You want to spend another $765 million on one player.
- [53:42]
Paul Stereben
He'd spend whatever he had to spend to bring a World Series.
- [53:45]
Jane Levy
He's not doing it.
- [53:46]
Paul Stereben
I know.
- [53:47]
Jane Levy
Remember when he said they would win a world series by 2020? Sure.
- [53:50]
Paul Stereben
He says a lot of things, but.
- [53:52]
Jane Levy
Concomitantly, and this is part of the problem and why the union doesn't trust ownership and they're right not to. It's that lots of the teams that receive the luxury tax money hoard it, they don't spend it. It's in the 2022 collective bargaining agreement that if you receive those funds like the Rays and Marlins and the Pirates, you have and the A's, you have to spend it on payroll and they don't, they pocket it. And there are still grievances pending because that's the only recourse in the CBA that was given to the union. There's still grievances based on what teams didn't spend. So.
- [54:43]
Paul Stereben
Hoarding. Hoarding, yeah.
- [54:45]
Jane Levy
So in Jane's world, when Jane's commissioner, if you do that as an owner, you get all these bucks, these shekels, and you don't spend it. Okay, first year, no draft picks. Let's not talk about moving you back to 20 to 30th pick with no draft picks. Second one, your 40 man roster goes down to 35.
- [55:06]
Paul Stereben
They're going to be tough.
- [55:08]
Jane Levy
Yes. They think rolls can't be tough. I am a tough.
- [55:12]
Paul Stereben
No, nobody, nobody who reads your book is any of your books is going to think you can't be tough.
- [55:17]
Jane Levy
And after that, relegation.
- [55:20]
Paul Stereben
Oh, my relegation. Now you're like into the English, you know, football league.
- [55:25]
Jane Levy
It works. I mean, you know, if you wanted to, if you want to.
- [55:29]
Paul Stereben
Shame.
- [55:30]
Jane Levy
If you want to field a AAA team and think, you know, and make Pittsburgh Pirates and make. And make your money by not spending the money you're required to spend, then fine, go play a aaa, you know, schedule.
- [55:47]
Paul Stereben
All right, well, you are going to kick some butt, Jane, I hope. Levy, I'm gonna.
- [55:53]
Jane Levy
Levy.
- [55:54]
Paul Stereben
Leave me. Levy. Levy. Levy. Sorry. Levy.
- [55:58]
Jane Levy
Shall I tell you that story now or are you going to just cut it?
- [56:01]
Paul Stereben
Well, hold on. I think you should tell people. Okay, there's a petition. Where do they go to sign the petition?
- [56:09]
Jane Levy
It's on Facebook. You can sign it on my website. There's also a guy. You know what? I'm going to get it to you. I can't remember his name. Bernstein. His name is Mitch Bernstein. Started it. Guy in Philadelphia. And it's on his Facebook and his Instagram also.
- [56:31]
Paul Stereben
Okay, well, let's wrap up and you can tell me the story right afterwards if you want. So. Yes, I'm Paul Starabin. Thank you everyone for tuning into the New Books Network to hear Jane Levy talk about her wonderful, fun book, Make Me Commissioner. I know what's wrong with baseball and how to fix it.