Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Howard Langer, "The Last Dekrepitzer" (Cresheim Press, 2025)
Host: Alfred Marcus
Guest: Howard Langer
Date: February 26, 2026

Overview

In this episode, Alfred Marcus interviews Howard Langer, author of "The Last Dekrepitzer", a novel exploring the journey of Shmuel Meir Lach Bencher (Sam Lightup), the last rebbe of a Hasidic sect destroyed in the Holocaust, who reemerges decades later as a street musician and bluesman in 1960s New York. The conversation dives deeply into themes of black-Jewish relations, spiritual leadership, the aftermath of genocide, the fluidity of identity, and the economic and cultural transitions faced by immigrants and minorities in America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Crossing Worlds: From Shtetl to Harlem

• Genesis of the Novel:
  • Langer was motivated to bridge the divide between the black and Jewish communities by exploring, through fiction, how each perceives the other.
  • The concept began with a short story about a Hasidic rebbe discovered playing music in the NYC subway. Building the novel meant imagining how he arrived at that point.

    "I wanted to write something that would ameliorate the tensions between the black community and the Jewish community. And I thought one way to do it would be to explain each to the other." (02:12, Howard Langer)

• World-Building Approach:
  • Langer admits to making up much of the rural Mississippi setting based on intuition, while thoroughly researching Reverend Gary Davis, the blues musician who appears in the novel.
  • Langer’s own life experience at age 70 reduced his need for traditional research.

Factual vs. Fictional Inspiration

• The protagonist, Shmuel Meir, is a wholly fictional character.
• Some similarities have been drawn to James McBride’s "The Heaven and Earth Grocery Store", but Langer sees key differences beyond the shared black-Jewish context.

Black-Jewish Relations and Individual Encounters

• Langer sought to challenge perceptions of antisemitism in the Black community, and of condescension or prejudice from Jews towards Blacks.
• Central to the novel: portraying people as individuals, not as group representatives.

  "In my book, the people relate to each other as individuals, not as groups. And that's very important." (05:25, Howard Langer)

• The most consistent theme in the book is kindness among individuals, despite evil (Nazis, Jim Crow) lurking in the background.

Spiritual Leadership Without Followers

• One of Langer's core explorations is: What does it mean to be a leader without a community?
• Shmuel Meir is compared to real Hasidic leaders like the Bubover Rebbe, who managed to reconstitute their communities post-Holocaust.

  "I wanted to see what it would be like for a Rebbe to have no followers, to have lost his mission, and how he would then go through life." (10:03, Howard Langer)

• In the novel, Shmuel Meir consciously moves away from seeking followers; he feels the old world is completely gone.

Musical Contrasts: Blues, Gospel, and Nigunim

• The book experiments with the interplay of Jewish nigunim and African-American blues/gospel (especially with the real-life Reverend Gary Davis).
• Reverend Davis used words and music as gospel to bring people to Jesus; Shmuel Meir’s music is wordless, serving as defiant prayer to remind God of the Holocaust's enormity.

  "His music is a direct prayer to God. And it's, as he says very often, it's to remind God what he did to his people." (08:16, Howard Langer)

• Langer grew interested in blues mainly due to copyright considerations, immersing himself in the music during his writing process.

Economic Life and Cultural Parallels

• Both the Polish shtetl and mid-century rural Mississippi are characterized by poverty and subsistence living, making the immigrant protagonist comfortable in both worlds.
• The story underscores the similarities between impoverished Jewish and Black rural communities.

  "While the people are different, the world in which they inhabit is very similar." (19:53, Howard Langer)

Inclusion, Exclusion, and Identity

• Lula, Shmuel Meir’s black wife, is both included and excluded—embraced as rabbi’s wife (Rebbetzin) by some, yet shunned or patronized by Jewish communities.
• Her identity is a crisscross of categories: black, Jewish, and Rebbetzin. She undergoes two conversions, the second to satisfy Orthodox legal requirements.

  "[Lula] has a certain level of importance spiritually." (29:40, Howard Langer)

• Ultimately, the family remains isolated: even among other Jewish immigrants (Holocaust survivors running chicken farms in New Jersey), they are subject to prejudice.

Intergenerational Uncertainty & Sequel Possibilities

• The novel concludes ambiguously: Is Shmuel Meir or his son Moses the "last Dekrepitzer"? Moses aspires to be the next rebbe, hinting at an unresolved legacy.
• Langer was encouraged to write a sequel, considering themes of black Jewish identity in the post-Civil Rights era.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Evil in the Story:

  "The evil is lurking throughout the book. First there are the Nazis, who of course destroy the Jews of Europe. And then there's the Jim Crow south and the Ku Klux Klan." (05:25, Howard Langer)

• On Spiritual Defiance:

  "He plays his music...purely in defiance of God. Though he ritually plays the music three times a day, the three times that Jews would pray during the course of the day." (21:17, Howard Langer)

• On Music as Prayer:

  "He's praying for—it is a substitute for prayer for him. And he's playing in defiance of God." (42:49, Howard Langer)

• On Heritage and Survivorship:

  "He purposely plays in the subway stations that are in the Jewish neighborhoods." (44:43, Howard Langer)

• On Defiance as a Response to God:

  "We have this morality, and this morality applies to you as well as to us. And you have violated this morality. And I am reminding you that you have violated this morality." (45:27, Howard Langer)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:56 – Crossing between Shtetl, Jim Crow South, and Harlem: Genesis of the novel
• 04:44 – Intentions regarding black-Jewish relations
• 09:43 – The meaning and challenge of being a rebbe without followers
• 13:45 – Hasidic leaders post-Holocaust: Bhavaver vs. Satmar; leadership and trauma
• 19:35 – Economic parallels: shtetl Jews and Black sharecroppers
• 21:17 – Contrasting musical/spiritual leadership and responding to devastation
• 28:12 – Inclusion and exclusion: Lula, conversion, and the boundaries of community
• 32:36 – The son Moses' experience, race, and legacy: bar mitzvah, cross burning, "last" status
• 38:17 – Moments of adaptation and holding to an uncompromising core
• 40:02 – Shmuel Meir’s anger, defiance, and confrontation over theology
• 42:49 – For whom is he playing? Music as substitute for prayer, search for recognition
• 46:38 – Langer’s transition from lawyer to author, and the writing process
• 51:52 – Book’s commercial fate and experience with niche categories

Further Reflections

• Langer reflects on his lack of direct Holocaust family lineage, learning about the Holocaust as a child via peers and televised events.
• Both interviewer and author meditate on the accidental nature of their own careers, crossing purposes between law, writing, and academia.

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced examination not only of "The Last Dekrepitzer" but also of the intersections of identity, trauma, faith, exile, music, and the possibilities for cross-community empathy via fiction. Rich with both historical allusion and contemporary resonance, Langer and Marcus explore how individual lives can symbolize broader cultural negotiations—and how stories help bridge seemingly unbridgeable gaps.