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- [00:00]
TJ Watt
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- [00:30]
Marshall Poe
Hello everybody, this is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the the New Books Network.
- [01:46]
Father Ron Rolheiser
No Nietzsche, the famous atheist Nietzsche once said, he says all of religious experience is just human projection. Basically, we create God in our intimate likeness. You know, what a sake of that he's 90% correct, but he's 10% wrong. And that makes all the difference. See, See, as long as we're getting images, we can play with images. Well, once, once your imagination is turned off, you can't fudge the experience of God anymore. It flows into you purely, you know, we said, flows into you darkly. You know, John of the Cross says there's two times you can't see when it's pitch black, when you're looking straight into the sun.
- [02:26]
Chris Odiniec
Today I talked to Fr. Ron Rolheiser, priest, theologian, great guy and I believe a practicing mystic about his new book, Insane for the Light, A Spirituality for Our Wisdom. Years and how to grow old well and be fruitful, first giving your life away and then your death so as to be a blessing to others, which is of course a recipe for joy. I really, really enjoyed this book and this conversation on almostly Catholics. Good morning and welcome to Almost Good Topics, a conversation about theology and apologetics. I'm your host, Chris Odin, and I get to ask interesting people the interesting questions and together we will approach the truth and have a really good time doing it. If you'd like to join the conversation, please email me at almostgoodcatholics gmail.com today my guest is Father Ron Rolheiser. Father Ron grew up on a farm on Cactus Lake, Saskatchewan, on the Canadian prairie, and his father was an immigrant from Saratov, Russia, an ethnic German from the Volga Germans, much like Bishop Athanasius Schneider, whom I interviewed earlier this year and his bishop in neighboring Kazakhstan. Father Ron joined the missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate in 1966 and was ordained to the priesthood in 1972. He has a bunch of degrees in theology and philosophy, including a doctorate from the University of Louvain in 1983. He started writing his column in exile over 40 years ago, and at that time he wrote, all of us live our lives in exile. We live in our separate riddles, partially separated from God, from each other and from ourselves. The God who is omnipresent cannot be sensed. Others who are real as ourselves are always partially distanced and unreal, and we are, in the end, fundamentally a mystery, even to ourselves. His most recent column that I just saw online, so fast forward 43 years, Father, you wrote why do I Believe in God? I believe in God because I sense God's presence at a gut level, as a silent voice, as a call, an invitation, a moral imperative which whenever listened to and obeyed, brings community, love, peace and purpose. That's the real proof for the existence of God. So in addition to the column, he has written, by my count, 16 books and most recently, Insane for the Light, the book we're talking about today. He's also been a provincial superior of his order. He's worked in its administration in Rome for six years, and he's taught theology at a number of august institutions. And he still likes to go home to Cactus Lake, especially for Christmas, though I understand he's in Texas right now and he hopes to be home by New Year. And he's also fully human. I'll quote from your biography, Father. It says Father Ron is also known for his commitment to prayer and exercise, a continuing love of sports his sense of humor, his loyalty to his friends, and his enjoyment of the odd cigar and fine scotch. So welcome, Father Ron.
- [05:31]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Thank you, Chris. Thank you. Good to be with you.
- [05:34]
Chris Odiniec
My great pleasure. Would you like to tell us a joke?
- [05:37]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Absolutely. And since we're talking about aging, I'll tell a joke on aging. So the story told of four men, retired, they're in a senior's home for assisted living. And they're talking, they're lamenting about their declining health. So the first man said, you know, it's terrible. I can't see anymore. Six feet across the table. I can't recognize a face. Second man said, I can see, but I can't hear. He said, I have hearing aids the size of golf balls and I hear nothing. The third man said, I have osteoporosis and I'm ossified. I can't turn a fraction to the right or to the left. The fourth man said, but thank God we can all still drive. And I'm not sure that's a joke or not, Chris. That might not be a joke.
- [06:27]
Chris Odiniec
That's pretty great. That reminds me of a kind of macabre one liner I once heard, which is, I'd like to go when I die. I'd like to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather and not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car. So it is today, December 9th, as we're recording. So it's the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception and the feast of Our lady of Guadalupe and Juan Diego, who is not only Queen of the Universe, but also the Americas. So that includes the United States, Canada, and, of course, Mexico. But let's talk about this book. The title is Insane for the Light, A Spirituality for Our Wisdom Years. And it is the third of a trilogy. So you've taken us through three seasons of life and how we should live well and how we should embrace the condition we're in. So I found this book to be wonderful. Father, you're older than I am. But as I'm approaching half a century of life, I find myself lost in a dark wood in the middle of my journey. And I found your book to be a beacon. I'm starting to attend more funerals than weddings, for parents of friends, for friends of my parents, for beloved professors and people in my community. And my own kids are growing up and they'll soon be gone from the nest in the next couple of years, off to go into the world. And so here I am. I'm not the young man I kind of imagine myself to be. And I imagine that goes double for people who are more senior than I am. But as we are in our secular world. I don't have any hearing aids, but I wear glasses to read, and my knees hurt and my feet hurt and I've switched from running to bicycling. But we slowly, slowly see the diminishment of capability and nature's cruelty, perhaps, as we're stripped of beauty and health and faculties and relevance. One by one, we're hanging from a tree branch, from a cliff, hanging by a root, and my hair is turning gray and so on. But you say, have no fear, and you say that this season and the seasons that are coming are wholly and important. So could you explain why and what's the thesis of this book and how should we think about our life and as we progress down his path?
- [08:51]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Okay, thanks, Chris. Let me situate the book. Like you said. This is the third of a trilogy. So the first book I wrote was called the Holy Longing, and it's a book for younger people. How do you get your life together? How do you get your life together? And then some years later, I wrote another book called Sacred Fire, which is how do you give your life away? See, that's the state you're in right now. You're in your generative years. You know, hopefully you're not saying anymore, who am I? What does life mean? You know, your question is, how can I serve? How can I do better? How can I be a better father, a better Christian? Okay, but that isn't the end of it. See, we all, the last phase of our life is how do you give your death away? Like, how do you live your last years so that you give something else? Like right now, you're a father. You're. You're. You're doing generative stuff, and that's good. But when you're retired and you're a grandfather, you asked to put something else into this planet. That's what this book is about, you know. You know, I'm glad you said you're only 50 or whatever, because, you know, I begin the book with a story. Some years ago, I went with them. I've colleague of mine, young guy, we went to visit a priest who was in his 90s. And this priest was just Polish, incidentally, but just one of the most mellow men we'd ever met. And this young guy says to the priest, he said, leo, he said, when I get your age, I want to be like you. What do I do? He said, start now. The key is, don't start. You know, your wisdom years, when you get to be 75, 80, you got to start now, you know, and the book is kind of lays out how do you do that, you know, so it's not just a book for retired people. It's a book for people like yourself. Say, how do I start now so that I can really make my retirement years very generative?
- [11:00]
Chris Odiniec
Well, that's a book I enjoyed a great deal and it's filled with joy. And you describe it as subversive joy. So tell us. Joy.
- [11:12]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Joy.
- [11:12]
Chris Odiniec
I understand anybody who believes in the gospel knows that the end of the story is a good one and has no fear, as you say. But what is subversive about the joy?
- [11:21]
Father Ron Rolheiser
You have found good expression, you know, Basically, Chris, everything, almost everything in life know, invites you to be cynical. You know, why should you be happy? This is happening. That's happening. There's health issues, there's government issues. There's this, you know, you shouldn't be joyful. See, so joy is almost a subversive statement. Say, you know, which is based on Christian hope. Say, in the end, everything's going to be okay and I can go through tough periods and it's not going to. Basically, it's not going to derail me. You know, joy is subversive. Like real joy is subversive. You know where you really see it? I see it as Gilder get is in little kids, you know, sometimes they're in tragic situations, they're skipping and they're laughing and these energy's coming out and so on. It's subversive because so much invites us to cynicism, to despair, to do, why should I be happy? Life's a mess. This is a mess. You know, joyous. Impressive.
- [12:25]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a bumper sticker I've seen many times that says if you're not outraged, you're not paying attention. And that's a nightmare of a way to approach the world. And I think, you know, the constant news cycle and the things on our telephone will give us lots of reasons to be upset, but we quickly forget. So that turning of the head, which you say goes from paranoia to metanoia, two good Greek terms. Would you explain how we do that?
- [12:52]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Okay, I'll start with the terms. That term. You know, we have the term paranoia in English. We know what it means. We don't have the term metanoia, but in the Gospels, that's the first word out of Jesus mouth which retranslates repent. Remember, he said repent and believe in the good News. So, like in English, in the Western languages, the word repentance doesn't get it. Because if I say to you repent, it seems to imply you've already done something wrong and you got to come back from that. That's not what that word means. First of all, the root. Notice the word meta, we have that word in English. And the word means above. And noia comes from the word nus, which means mind. Jesus is saying, put on an above mind. You know, like, don't put on your petty mind. Put on your above mind. And I explained it this way. The church fathers had a wonderful homily on this. They said, each of us has two minds. We have a noble mind, and we have a petty mind. So in each of us, there's a higher. There's a higher Chris, you know, you can get up some morning and your Mother Teresa and Jesus, and you'll do anything. But inside of us, there's also a pity mind. We've been hurt. We can easily get, you know, often say, imagine you get up some morning and you're just feeling like Mother Teresa and you could save the world. You go to work and somebody assaults you in one minute. You know, just freeze over. Okay? Which of those people are you? They're both you, you know. See, you can be operating out of your higher self. You can be operating out of your lower self, you know, but. So metanoia is your higher self. But in Greek, it puns with paranoia. See, paranoia is to defend yourself. I got to take care of myself. Henri Nouwen has a wonderful book on this, where he. His book called With Open Hands, and he puts it with pictures. He said the posture of paranoia is to clench fists. You know, a boxer defending himself, you know, said the posture of metanoia is Jesus on the cross, arms outstretched, hands open, nails punched through the hands. That's metanoia, you know, and notice it's a much richer word than the word repent. You know, it's calling you to your highest self. Say, Chris, inside of you there is a saint. There is a great noble heart. Jesus said, work out of that. Work out of that. Try not to fall into the. You know, the wounded. We all have to pet him, too.
- [15:35]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah, well, that is a very beautiful answer. And I like the image of the hand because when your hand is a fist, you can't accept anything. You can't hold anything. You're bereft of your capacity for holding.
- [15:49]
Father Ron Rolheiser
And it's defensive. It's defensive.
- [15:51]
Chris Odiniec
It's defensive. One of the favorite lines in your book that I've been quoting to people all week is from page 77, you write, an idol is an icon we have hung onto for too long. Which makes me think, like, there's a way to live with dignity and age well and be a handsome old gentleman or a beautiful older lady and stay in good shape and stuff like that. But then there's a way to cling to it with, you know, I don't know, plastic surgery and, you know, things that are somehow out of pace with where. Where we are. Talk. Talk about the idols that we. It's interesting because I know what an idol is, but it's interesting that it was once an icon. There's a time in every season for every purpose under heaven, and if you miss it, it's like a rotting fruit. Perhaps I'm. What. Explain. Explain this idea. Icons and idols.
- [16:43]
Father Ron Rolheiser
So you see that an idol isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, when it starts like example. Okay, you used the example. You're young. When somebody's young, they want to be healthy, they want to be attractive, they want to have a healthy body. That's healthy. That's good. There's nothing wrong with that. It's the way God builds you. You know, it's a bit of an idol, the idol of physical attractiveness, health and so on. But it can be clung to too long. If I'm 70 years or 5 years old and I just want a tummy tuck and more cosmic surgery and so on. See, then something which was once good now becomes ungood, you know, I'll give you a major example from John of the Cross, who I think would be one of the best spiritual directors ever. So he says, like during. During a good part of your life, for instance, the need to control, you know, like you might see as a psychiatrist counselor and say, you know, Chris, you're just a control freak across the. For a good part of your life, that's good. That's good. Once you get to be 75, it's no longer good. You don't see something which was good, you know, and you could, you know, hang on to. At a certain point, you have to let it go. You know, that's also true religiously. You know, like sometimes our cults with the saints and all kinds of. And with icons is really good, but at the end, it's not God. At a certain point, you have to say, but it's just an icon. So if you make it the end, it's an idol, it's a false God. But I'm glad you hooked onto that line. It's an important line, you know, so that you know. And I think sometimes we err both ways. You know, religion tends sometimes not to give you permission to exactly feel that health is important and so on. And sometimes psychology doesn't give you permission in the other direction. So I say, well, you're just a control freak. It's at 50, you should be. You have a lot of stuff to take care of, family and so on. You got to control your life. When you're in a senior's home and incested living, it's going to be a little different.
- [19:01]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah. And so that is very interesting that there's nothing to be feared about that transition. A large part of your book is about that transition. A man becomes what you call an elder and a woman becomes a Sophia. So a wise woman. You quote many authors. David Brooks, I know quite well from his Two mountains. Jermaine Greer was an interesting anthropologist. That is great to hear her. Last week we talked about different roles and archetypes for men, but hers is for women. And it's about how a woman transforms from a maiden to a mother to, you could say crone, which sounds bad, or you could say Sophia, which sounds terrific. And you also draw on the tradition of Hinduism, which is. Been thinking about this for a lot longer, where one becomes a sannyasin or a forest dweller, which I remember from the Hermann Hesse book Siddhartha, which I read in high school, about how, you know, as you start off as a young man interested in all the things we just talked about, you become a father with a job and a home and children and so on, and then you go off with your spouse for a time when your children are gone, and then you separate and go off to be sort of a mendicant wandering the earth. So that is, I think, quite alien to the Western tradition as we interpret it, at least at the beginning of the 21st century, but it could also be tremendously liberating. Would you talk about that, please?
- [20:33]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Yeah, you know, let's use Germaine Greer as an entry. You know, so Germaine Greer, she talks about women, it applies to men and, you know, in its own way. But she says, for instance, as a woman, when you're a young girl, it's very important to be attractive to, you know, you're this young, you know, good looking little girl, you know, then you become an attractive woman. So then oftentimes you become somebody's wife, which is good. Then you become a mother. You're Raising kids, it says, notice how all of that is still very much related to biology, attractiveness. Mother says, but then along comes menopause, which plays a cool trick on you, which suddenly says, biology is not that important, isn't it? But see, but then that invites you to the next stage. Then you become Sophia. You know, you still might be a mother and a wife, but, you know, now you become an elder. Your task is to, you know, you're no longer raising kids, you're mentoring. It's interesting. She has an interesting thing in there about Roman Catholic sisters said it's interesting. Roman Catholic sisters, when they make their vows in their 20s, they're already vowing to be Sophia to say, you know, I'm not going to be somebody's wife, I'm not going to be somebody's mother, I'm going to be an elder, you know. But she says, basically after menopause, it's going to turn a lot of women into nuns. But, but, you know, but it, there's a different. Let me do it with, with Hinduism and forest dwelling. In fact, Chris, Chris, we have a forest dwelling program here where people come in for two years. They come in off and on and we, we do this and it's a set up for, you know, as you're entering retirement and we look at this, we say to K, you've spent the last 30 or 40 years of your life, the time you're in right now, raising kids, paying a mortgage, doing this, doing all this stuff, okay? Then you get to be a grandfather at a certain point, the mortgage is paid, the kids are raised, you're retired. What are these next 25 years for? They're no longer for raising kids. They could be partly for grandparenting. See, Penny C. You become a forest dweller. You spend some years saying, what's the new generativity? Or I have a metaphor right now. Chris, as a father, as a person doing this kind of work, you're breathing a certain kind of oxygen into the planet. What's the oxygen you're supposed to breathe into the planet when you're 75 and 80. Or the metaphor I use, I love this. In Genesis, When Abraham is 80 and Sarah is 70, God says, Go off to a distant land where you don't know where you're going. And when you get there, Sarah's going to become pregnant and have the baby you always wanted. So they go off. It took 20 years. Now he's 100, she's 90. They have Isaac. I don't know what happened historically. That's an incredible metaphor. You know, so we say to people, what's going to be your post menopausal baby? Right now you're giving birth to a lot of stuff. What are you going to give birth to after you're 75? You know, what kind of oxygen, you know, who is going to be your Isaac? Yeah, you know, see, it's a powerful metaphor. See, and that lies in being an elder and being a Sophia and being a grandparent, in being a holy old beggar. See it? And the holy longing is everything about what's going to be your post menopausal baby.
- [24:21]
Chris Odiniec
Don't you think that is very hard for us as 21st century North Americans in a society where we don't obviously honor the elders the way you might in old India or old China or a place where, or, you know, medieval Europe, let's say, where an elder is person with great respect. It seems in our, you know, world where we have made quite an, quite an idol out of youth and beauty and so on, that the older you get, you sort of start to turn invisible. So how do you, how do you bring those gifts in a way that people will appreciate them?
- [25:02]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Yeah, well, that, that's the trick. But we say we've made an idol out of youth and beauty, but also out of utility. See, we take so much meaning. What we do, you know, right now you're working, you have a job, you're raising kids, you know, you get up in the morning, you know who you are. So when you're retired and so on, kids are raised to, you know, how do you take meaning? We take so much more meaning for what we do. So when we stop achieving, we don't feel good about ourselves. That more than even the, the youth and beauty is, is, is the problem in our culture. We, we define meaning with utility. You know, and that's also, we talk about euthanasia or whatever. Once, once you can't produce anymore, why be around, you know. Yeah. What's the value of your life? And, and also, especially in terms of taking our sense of self worth. I can feel good when I'm achieving something. I can't feel good when I'm not achieving something. You know, and that's. Henry Nouwen has a great line I quote in there. He said, we have to move from achievement to fruitfulness. I love that expression. You know, right now you still need to achieve things. You need to do stuff, you know, and that's going to make you fruitful. But at a certain point, if you live long enough you're just going to be fruitful. You're not going to be achieving anything. And ironically, that may contribute more to your family, the world, than what you're doing now.
- [26:33]
Chris Odiniec
I think that was a. That was a really important distinction. And how do you know the difference? In your book you write, you know, the difference between someone who's fruitful and someone who's just merely generative for his own sake, that we resent the people who are successful but don't give anything to anyone else. You see, like, oh, look at that. Look at that jerk. He just did this. He made this many billions of dollars and blah, blah, blah. But somebody was like, wow, I really am grateful to my, you know, my father, my grandfather, my dear old neighbor, my professor, who took so much time out of his day to come help me. You know, how you feel about the people, that their success is not a source of resentment to others, but a source of appreciation. And. And as you say, fruit. By their fruit, you will know them.
- [27:20]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Yeah, very much so.
- [27:21]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah. Well, you have this remarkable paragraph which begins with, dare I say this? And it's on the topic of sexuality, but I'm not sure how to talk about sexuality because it's not just about sexual reproduction, but you talk a lot about sex and erosion and the activities that are connected to it. But I sort of interpret this from your book as things connected to the body. And I felt that way before when thinking about Freud, who often talks about sexuality, but he includes things like breastfeeding and toilet training and things that are embodied in our relational experience. Your paragraph is this, dare I say this, the most mature expression of sexuality on this planet is not a couple making perfect love, wonderful and sacred, though that is. Rather, it is a grandparent looking at a grandchild with a love that is purer and more selfless than any love he has ever experienced. A love without any self interest, which is only admiration, selflessness and delight. In that moment, this person is mirroring God, looking at the initial creation and exclaiming, it is good. It is very good. What follows then is that this person, like God, will try to open paths even at the cost of death, so that another's life may flourish. Would you unpack that? A remarkable paragraph.
- [28:45]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Okay, thanks for asking that. Well, I'll start with the paragraph itself. You know, in anthropology they say this, and I've checked this out with everybody, that they say the purest experience of love on this planet is not the love of a person for spouse or even love for your children, strong. The love of a grandparent for a grandchild. See in, in your, your spousal love and so on. And with kids there's tension, there's this, there's that. With grandparents, it's just pure, you know, we just look at this kid and wow, you know. And I said it's like, like God looking at the planet and say it's good, it's good, it's very good, and so on. But now why is the purest experience of sexuality? You know, sexuality is developmental. I'll give you the men's cycle, it's a little different than the woman's cycle. See, for a man, when you reach puberty, your sexual instincts, it's powerful, you know. You know, a young 15 year old boy can have an erection every 12 minutes in mathematics class. And then the drive is for sex. But then at a certain point the drive is for intimacy. So it's not just for sex. Now you want intimacy, okay, but then that matures. At a certain point you don't just want intimacy, you want children. That's the development of sexuality. But that's not the final stage. The final stage is the grandparenting stage where you're. And that's sexual. You know, you're looking, you know, the way I define sex, it's everything. I mean, you're to keep set that we don't want to be a mall. Not good for you to be alone. You know, everything that drives you outward is sexuality. The highest development of that is not making love or even having children. At a certain point it's looking at, you know, when take the baptism of Jesus.
- [30:44]
Chris Odiniec
Am I. Can I interrupt? Are you using sexual as a synonym for relational?
- [30:49]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Yes and no. Sexual is. Well, I'll give you the distinction I'm making very, very strong in the holy longing. And that is. There's a difference between sexuality and genitality. See, genitality is having sex. Okay, but sexuality is about everything. The way you breathe. You know, this may sound weird, but, but you know, everything is sex. The atoms are sex, you know, hydrogen and oxygen. Get it on water, you know, at every level. That, that's eros, you know, and it's inside of us, but it's, it's sexuality ultimately, everything inside of you pushing beyond your aloneness.
- [31:37]
Chris Odiniec
So not birds, bees, pollen, floating in the sunlight.
- [31:40]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Yes, everything is inside of you. You want to be in union and community and something bigger. Something bigger and something bigger, you know, See, So I think it's very important that you know, I think since Freud we've tend to divide, define sexuality as Genitality. Sex means having sex. No, having sex is one part of it. It can be an important part of it, you know, but, for instance, I'm a celibate. That doesn't mean I'm an asexual being. You know? You know, you, You. Everything inside of you, you know, your drive for play, for community, for that. That isn't a substitute for sexuality. It's a modality of sexuality. You know. See, when. Suppose, you know, you're at a dinner and you're just enjoying yourself and your wine is flowing and say, this is good. That's not a substitute for sex. That's the modality of sexuality. That's one of its expressions. But, see, our culture has narrowed it. Our culture means sex, means having sex. We pay a heavy price for that, you know. No, I'd invite your listeners to read the chapter in the Holy Longing on sexuality, you know, where I make that distinction. And it's very important. I think one of the great poverties in our culture is that we identify sexuality with having sex. Yeah. So why are you saying the holy alone? No, you. You can have a lot of sex and not be a fulfilled human being at all. You can have no sex and be a very fulfilled human being. You know? You know, anything that takes you deeper into community, you know, and you go right back to the atoms, oxygen and hydrogen combining, getting married and making water, and water combining with something else. That's eros, working at every level but the grandparenting, you know, check that out. Check that out. With any grandparents, they'll say it's true.
- [33:52]
Chris Odiniec
It'S true, you know, And I think.
- [33:55]
Father Ron Rolheiser
There'S the purest love you're going to experience.
- [33:57]
Chris Odiniec
I agree with that. Just watching my parents with my children, I think there's a natural alliance there because they both have time for each other, and they're not in this rat race of I have to go to work and I have to go shopping and I have to make dinner, and they can actually spend time to walk to the park and have some ice cream. And I think that second childhood finds kinship in the first childhood.
- [34:27]
Father Ron Rolheiser
You know, an expression that Richard Rohr says. Richard Rohr says there isn't a single thing you can do to ever make God love you less for one second. Now take that. You know, you're going to be a grandfather someday. When you look at your first grandchild through the window at the nursery, there's nothing this kid can do to affect you. Nothing. There's things your kids can do right now to offend you, you know, see it. It's pure. It's pure. See, there's no more. There's no more angle. There's no more selfishness. There's no more self interest. It's just pure love. That's God looking at the planet, you.
- [35:05]
Chris Odiniec
Know, I feel that another difficult concept. I want to return to that later, but I. Before we go on, I want to ask you about the dark night of the soul, because you just mentioned St. John of the Cross. And I read. I read that my. My dear friend who is my neighbor, a fellow named Christian, who is. He's actually probably listening because I think he listens to every episode. Anyway, Christian gave me this book, San Juan de la Cruz, and I read it and I was so confused by the dark night of the soul. And I was so confused by St Teresa of Calcutta, who in her memoir said that she, you know, hadn't felt heard by God for, you know, decades, if not half a century. But. But that sounds terrible. And yet you say it's a transition that leads to bigger things. And in addition, you talk about Jesus as afraid before his own death in a way that I've not heard before. You write on page 70, he was almost hysterical with fear, which is shocking because you know that Jesus knows the end of the story. You know that Jesus created the planet, including the, you know, the place he's being killed, murdered. So would you talk a bit about St. John of the Cross, the six stages that you talk about toward the end of the book? And what is it? What is it? And why is it so good?
- [36:28]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Okay, first of all, a word of warning. I always tell people, don't try to reach on the cross on your own. Okay? You're going to get to, you know, in fact, for years I was put off by him until I had a very, very good course on him. You know, you need commentary because the language itself, first of all, it's medieval. It's a certain hagiography of language, you know, that needs to be retrieved. But once it is retrieved, to me, he's the ultimate spiritual master that I've ever read, you know. But no, what is a Dark Knight? See, first of all, it's paradoxical. When you have a dark night of the soul, it's not that God shuts off the circuits, it's the opposite. You know, that God flows into your life so strongly that at a certain point your imagination can't get it anymore. Okay, let me give you Thomas Keating. That's a wonderful example. So Thomas Keating says, imagine you're A mother fish at the bottom of the Ocean, and you're 300ft down. Baby fish come and say, mother, what's this water everybody talks about? Okay, well, today the mother fish could set up a PowerPoint and start showing slides of water. Niagara Falls, the ocean, the tide, a water tap, a rainstorm. And the fish would be absolutely intrigued with that. But notice, those are pictures. That's not water. At a certain point, the mother fish would say, now I'm turning off the projector. Just sit in the water without the pictures. And they would be overwhelmed. Where's water? You know, it's interesting. You talk about Mother Teresa, you know, when her dark night hit her, just at the very height of all her fervor. She was on a train, 27 years old. She told God, I'll give you Jesus, anything. I'll never do. And it was like somebody shut off a switch. Well, they shut off the switch, shut off the projector, and for the next 60 years of her life, she was just in the water, you know. But see, the dark night. God isn't gone. But we are unable to imagine God the way we used to, you know, and for good reason, because God is ineffable. God can't be imagined. God can't be grasped in a thought. I always tell students, very simply, I'll say it to you, see, God is infinite and infinity can't be grasped. So, Chris, tell me, what's the highest number you can count to? You'll never get there.
- [39:13]
Chris Odiniec
That's right.
- [39:15]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Well, see, infinity. To think something, you have to circumscribe it. There's got to be a beginning. There's got to be an end. God has no beginning. God has no end. So when we. That. That. So God can be known, but God can't be thought. You can. I mean, we have images of God. Those are PowerPoint projections. It's not God. And see, what happens in a dark night? The projector turns off. And it turns off for a good reason. Let me give you the. No. Nietzsche, the famous atheist Nietzsche once said. He says all of religious experience is just human projection. Basically, we create God in our intimate likeness. You know what I say to that? He's 90% correct, but he's 10% wrong. And that makes all the difference. See, See, as long as we're getting images, we can play with images. Well, once. Once your imagination is turned off, you can't fudge the experience of God anymore. It flows into you purely, you know, we said. It flows into you darkly. You know, John of the Cross says there's two times you can't see when it's pitch black, when you're looking straight into the sun, you know, dark. You're looking straight into the sun. You can't get a picture of the sun, you know, it's not that the sun has disappeared. It's too present, you know. Now, the thing about Jesus on the cross, you know, I believe that, like we always say, well, Jesus was God and he saw the ending. No, but remember, Jesus took on our humanity completely. So on the cross, he's God, but he's suffering as a human being. So he's suffering everything. You know, it's interesting. I tell people, you're not going to find the suffering. Do people say, well, Jesus didn't experience this. Well, Jesus didn't experience that. He experienced ultimate humiliation. He experienced all these. He had to experience that so that we can relate to him, you know, See that. Remember, he emptied, as Scripture says, he empties himself of his divinity, you know, so that. No, it wasn't like he was on the cross. He could switch on his divine nature and so on. See, then you couldn't relate to that, you know. See, he. Or the.
- [41:35]
Chris Odiniec
He's not role playing.
- [41:37]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Yeah, he was a full human being. So he wasn't saying that so the crowd could say, mom, you know. No, he felt those things, you know. You know, I tell people, tell me something. Some human horror that Jesus didn't experience. So you can't say, well, he at least didn't experience that, including. I hope this doesn't scandalize your listeners, but, you know, today scholars suspect that the night from Holy Thursday, the Good Friday when the soldiers had him, that he was probably also sexually abused during that time, you know, so that there wasn't any feelings. Well, he didn't know what Jesus experienced at all. So on the cross, he would have been hysterical with fear, you know, and yet he was always calm. Remember, he tells his. Forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. You know. But he also showed us that even in hysterical fear, our metanoia, our high part, can rise above, you know, so that. Notice he. He didn't shout on the cross. You know, you're all horrible people, you know, but he was hysterical with fear. And the cross was the ultimate humiliation. The way they stripped him naked and everything else, it was. That was for a purpose.
- [42:55]
Chris Odiniec
So we. We lose everything, including our sight of what's important, which way is up, which ways down. We pass through the dark night of the soul. And I suppose this is Only for the very spiritually mature. I think the rest of us kind of plug along day to day until our time runs out. But then something. Something miraculous happens. You say, so there's a dark night, but then after the dark night, the sun rises and you enter into a new relationship with God and a new way of seeing the world. I suppose when you suffer the kind of abuses that we are talking about, the thing that falls away must be the illusion that we still have some control, some dignity, something like that. The way, you know, the shell of a seed falls away and something can grow from that.
- [43:47]
Father Ron Rolheiser
You know, what happens after is that God can flow into us purely, you know, right now from our sufferings of, you know, we can still fudge it. We can still make God fit where we want God to fit. Yeah. That's why we have about 700 kinds of Christians. Yeah, we can make God fit. You know, in the dark night, basically, God knocks out your faculties in terms of God, which means you can't fudge it anymore. God flows impurely. And then after the initial darkness, there's ecstasy. You know how. You know. And John the Cross is good. John the Cross says once you go through that, you're in heaven, you know, and he'll say, now God flows purely into your life. And what follows that is his resurrection is joy, it's completeness and so on.
- [44:42]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah. So as much trouble as I had with the Dark Knight, some of the favorite parts of your book are where you do talk about death and resurrection, and you have a God who loves all his children, who's not interested in sorting or damning or gatekeeping of any kind, but much more interested in finding and redeeming the lost sheep. And I agree with your view 100%, as does the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which tells us that Hell is a voluntary exile. But you go even a step further and you remind us that Jesus is the one who descends into hell to come get us when our own stubbornness is a barrier to salvation. It's not that.
- [45:18]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Oh, you.
- [45:19]
Chris Odiniec
You come out when you're ready. No, Jesus will come and get you, even if you would like to persist in your foolishness. Listeners to the show know that I'm very fond of CS Lewis and his great divorce and Screwtape letters, which always say the same thing, that imagining a time when Lucifer himself will end the war with an apology and reconciliation. So I love this. I think of this as a, you know, sort of Catholic mysticism. And I find it. I find it that it could Be the sort of thing that people would find quite hopeful and a good way to enter into a relationship with God. Would, would you like to talk a bit about that?
- [45:54]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Yes, thanks for asking that. Let's start with that. Hell is voluntary. You know, I'll say this as a statement, you know, there's nobody in hell who's there saying God, if I had a chance over, I'd make an act of contrition and so on. Jesus would make an act of contrition. If there's anybody in hell, they're feeling sorry for people in heaven they're saying if you're that stupid and you buy into that crap, you can go there, you know. See, hell is. God doesn't ever put anybody to hell. We could put ourselves to hell, you know, and John's gospel has it clearly. Jesus says you can put yourself to hell by warping your own soul, by lying and so on. That's why in scripture lying is the most dangerous of all sins. Because eventually you can believe your own lies and you can see darkness is light and light is darkness. But, or I quote, John Shay says hell is never a nasty surprise waiting for a happy person. You know. And I'm glad you read CS Lewis. The Great Divorce is a marvelous book. Notice the conditional evidence. The saints just say, give me your hand, I'll lead you in there, you know.
- [47:04]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah.
- [47:04]
Father Ron Rolheiser
There are no conditions you want to go and yet 9 out of 10 resist. You know, it's, it's. The problem is on our side, you know that. And the other thing is there's a lot of great saints, Gregory of Nissan, so on who believe that the final victory of the cross, the final victory of the cross will be when the devil himself converts and goes back to heaven. Yeah. And hell is empty. They believe that the cross will eventually empty hell so that. But the thing about the descent into hell, that is just a rich, rich Christian thing which we don't, we don't use much. You know, I've studied world religions, I've taught world religions. I say the descent into hell is the most souling doctrine in all of religion. There's nothing in Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism that approximate that. What that means is there's no hell we can put ourselves into where Jesus can't go into. Let me give you. I always use it with three stories, you know, and you can write your own stories. I remember a family I knew back home. They had a 22 year old daughter who had a long history of clinical depression. She went to college, attempted suicide. They flew her home and then for three months, they took her to the best doctor, psychiatrist, whatever. Didn't help. After three months, she killed herself. She was in some kind of private depression that nothing could penetrate. Okay, close that. Okay. If you ever go to London, England, go to the Anglican cathedral there, called St. Paul's and there you'll see a very famous painting. There's lots of knockoffs of this, and it's the Jesus who Knocks. It's a painting by Holman Hunt, and it's very famous. My mother used to give their twas as a holy card. But there's a man behind in the dark. He's behind a thick oak door. The door is about 8 inches thick. And he's huddled behind there. And Jesus is standing outside with a lantern, knocking. But there's only a doorknob on the inside. So you say with precious. You have to open the door. Jesus wants to get in, but you have to open the door. Now. Third thing, go to John, chapter 20. The morning of the resurrection, John said all the disciples were in a room with the doors locked. Out of fear, they said Jesus came right through the locked doors, stood in the middle. He said, peace. Peace be with you. Notice he didn't knock. He came through the locked doors. Now, back to the first story. You can be sure when this oversensitive young girl of 20 years old, when she woke up on the other side, Jesus was inside saying, peace. Peace be with you. See, we can create barriers that we can't get through. Notice the best psychiatrist, the best doctors could not. The best love couldn't penetrate that. Jesus can, you know, see what this. It's in our creed. And I'm glad they restored that in the Apostles Creed. I do.
- [50:16]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah, I love that, too.
- [50:17]
Father Ron Rolheiser
So it. It's so positive. But basically, there's nothing we can create because a lot of times, you know, through anger, through bitterness, and people die and so on, and alienate, you know, they're in. Behind a locked door. We can't get there. Jesus can get there. That's the most consoling doctrine in all of religion, which means when we can't help ourselves anymore, and sometimes we get to a point we can't help ourselves, Jesus can help us. That's why the Hoban Hunt painting is wrong. Jesus is knocking. He wants you to open the door. But if he can't open it, he'll come through the door. You know, that thing in John 20 is just so powerful. Yeah. You know, they were behind locked doors. They were afraid of everything. In fact, they were afraid of Jesus, because that betrayed him. He came right through the locked doors and he stood in the middle and he breathed. Notice that breath from the beginning of Scripture. In the beginning was the formless void. And God breathed over the water and the water to land began to separate from the. You know, see that? It's the breath of God, the Holy Spirit. But just that, that's the most consoling doctrine there is. You know, I've done a lot of work on suicide through the last 40 years and so on, and that's one of my basic, you know, consolation pieces. You know, people die. In fact, there are four suicides an hour in the United States, you know, more than 90 a day. You know, we, we. And a lot of people die angry or bitter or alienated from their families and so on. We have hope. Yeah, he descended into hell and he can still descend into hell. That's good news. Most consoling doctrine in all of religion. You know, I've been challenged and then I say, find me something in Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Judaism or any religion that approximates that.
- [52:16]
Chris Odiniec
There's a second story in your book that I love very much and that's where you are, in Los Angeles and you hear these two parents who had recently lost a 12 year old son to cancer. Would you tell that story about the rainbow?
- [52:32]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Yes. First of all, they told that in front of 6,000 people. Yeah. So it wasn't like, you know, they shared it in a corridor, but this was the story. They said the young boy, I think he was 12 or 13, was dying of cancer and he was scared like Jesus. He was deathly scared. And they were sitting with him. And one time, the mother said, they went out to get some coffee or something, just for about 10 minutes. They came back and he was calm. And he said, while you were gone, he said, an angel came and talked to me and told me what's going to happen. Said, I'm not scared anymore. He said, I'm sitting right here, you can still feel it where the angel was sitting. I thought, well, the illusions of a young boy. Then he said to his mother, and because you don't believe it, when I die, I'm going to give you a sign. I want to give you a sign. And later that night he died towards the morning, maybe three, four o' clock in the morning. And so they left the hospital, they went back to their house. Some neighbors gathered. So now it's just sunrise and they're having coffee. They're lamenting the death of this young boy. And one of the Neighbors standing by the window looks out. He said, quickly, come, he said, and there was a rainbow like I'd never seen before, just from one end of the sky to the other. And the mother said, I heard my son say as clearly standing beside me, said, that's for you, Mom. And because you don't believe it, I'm going to show you one again tomorrow morning and the next morning at exactly the same time. The rainbow, you know, that doesn't always happen, but sometimes it happens. And the fact they told that in front of 6,000 people in an arena, you know, it wasn't like, you know, they told it over coffee. And I think this happened, you know. Yeah, it's a powerful resurrection story.
- [54:24]
Chris Odiniec
I love it. I love it so much. My last question goes back to sort of being fruitful as an elder. And you talk a lot about blessing, and I think we use that word all the time, and we don't think. Think about it very much. What is a blessing? Which I think in Latin would probably be a benediction. But what is a blessing? How does it work?
- [54:48]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Well, let's go to Latin. A blessing is in Latin that you say bene dicere. Bene means good, and dice means to speak. You bless somebody when you speak well of them, you know. So the prototype I use of blessing in the book is, you know, when two of them, both testaments of scripture, open it with a blessing. Know the New Testament Jesus ministry opens with his baptism. They said the heavens opened, and the voice from heaven said, this is my beloved. Beloved and Greek. That's my blessed one in whom I take delight, in whom I am well pleased. And the Old Testament opens up with creation. And after each day, God said, it's good, it's good, it's very good, you know, so to bless somebody is to look at their energy and just say, it's good, it's good, it's very good. If you look at any of your kids and say, God, how proud of you. You're blessing them. Or you look at a younger colleague who might well even be threatening to take your job and say, guys are talented. See, that's a blessing. And it's hard to do, you know, they say that the absence of the father's blessing is the deepest hunger for men on this whole planet. A lot of men have never been blessed by their own father, you know, and there's all kinds of symptoms for that, you know. You know, that said, it doesn't always have to be spoken in words, but for instance, if your dad was proud of You. He blessed you. If he somehow saw you, the threat, you know, you're young, you know, you get chances. I never got these chances. And so on, you know. Daniel Berrigan, the great Jesuit maverick prophet, he wrote his autobiography at age 80. And he said, you know something says, my father never blessed me. He never blessed me. He never blessed my brother. He said, is it any wonder that I've been the thorn on the side of every authority figure on the planet? You know? He said, you know, I'd write a book. And my father would say, I should have written a book. You young guys. See, that's bad. Yeah. I always tell students, fish aren't the only species that eats their young. We do it. We do it. But you know, that the example I use in class, I would say, imagine this. Say, imagine you're a teacher and you're good. Everybody knows you're the best teacher in the school, and you have been for 20 years. And one year, you come to the staff meeting in August, and here's young Jack. And Jack is ordered from a catalog. He's better looking, better teeth, better hair, better attitude, better degree. And he's a nicer man than you are. How do you think the older men will treat Jack and you? I take delight. They say, no, I'm going to kill you. It's like King Herod. Just wait, Put up with the bullshit for the next 20 years. You'll be as cheated as I am, you know? But if they could walk around and say, God, Jack, it's great, your ear. I can retire, you know, you'd be blessed. You know something? You'd feel really good. Because when you act like God, you get to feel like God. When we act petty, we get to feel petty. Notice there's a powerful prototype of that when Jesus is born. Notice the wise men, they come and they lay their gifts at the foot of Jesus. What happens to Manfred? We don't know. They say we can go away and die. We're safe. Herod, to the contrary, I'm going to kill him. There's only room for one king, you know. See, that's the opposite of blessing. And. But as you get older, you know, not just you, but all your listeners just learn to say, God, it's good, you're good, you're wonderful. I mean, not in a superficial way, but just basically to, you know, wherever you see, especially see, the old have to bless the young, parents have to bless their kids, teachers have to bless their parents, students, priests have to bless their parishes and so on. It comes down Mothers have to bless their daughters and so on, but work at it for their sake, but also for your sake. You're going to become a mature, godly figure. To the extent that you can bless people, it's good in you. I take delight.
- [59:23]
Chris Odiniec
I think we as teachers have a tremendous opportunity to do that because all of our students are different. We see so many different ones, and we can meet them where they are. And I remember being a student and I always imagined, well, there's a certain. There's a certain rule. You have to get this many points for that. And now that I'm older and I can make it up as I go along, I'm like, actually, you don't have to do that thing. You can do something else. I know. I think you're going to be better at it if we do it in a different way than this other student. Got it? And that's, that's, that's really nice because I didn't imagine it from this side of, you know, of authority as a child. And now as an adult, I can. I could act a bit like God, as you say.
- [60:02]
Father Ron Rolheiser
I'll tell you a story that illustrates. When I was provincial of our order in Canada, it was in 1995, and our founder was being canonized in Rome on December 3rd, just the anniversary. And so the men, I was charged, we were about 120 men. And we decided that this is a big deal, that we could afford to send 30 people to Rome for this, you know, so we thought the way we would do it is by lottery, put the names in the hat. We're drawing out names, you know, and while we're doing this, bless him, a priest, George, he stands up and he says, this is silly. This is stupid. I know it's bim book. I said, but no, we don't understand. I have a better idea. I think the 30 youngest guys should call me, said, chris, they're the future. He said, I'm 69. He said, I don't have to charism. It's too late. He said, it's not too late for them. The youngest guy should go. And somebody else stuck and said, I don't agree with that. He said, I'm 77. I didn't get to Rome when I was young. Why should they go? And the priest said, so they don't turn out like you and I. He said, that's the whole point. He said, you know, we have to bless the young. I thought, what a great statement. He said, and we voted. And the youngest guys went, you know, he said, let's give it to the young. He said, I'm 69, you know, they should go so they don't turn out like me. And I thought it was just a wonderful example of blessing. That's terrific.
- [61:37]
Chris Odiniec
Well, we have been talking for an hour. I think maybe would you like to say a prayer for us and bless our listeners and their families and. And we can close.
- [61:51]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Okay. We pray, Lord, we ask your blessing. We ask you to bless us in our journey, give us the wisdom and the courage to let go of those things we need to let go of, especially to let go of bitterness, of anger, of our wounds. We ask you to give us the spirit, strength to bless the young, to give our lives so they may have more life. More life. We ask you to bless our health. We ask you to bless those who have less. And we ask you this to Jesus with Lord. Amen. Thank you.
- [62:36]
Chris Odiniec
Amen.
- [62:44]
Chorus/Singers
For me. For you.
- [62:58]
Chris Odiniec
Christo Deniz and Father Ron Rolheiser recorded this conversation. Episode 110 on Tuesday, December 9, 2025. That was the Feast of Our lady of Guadalupe and on Diego, and also the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This will be our Christmas episode too, and the last episode of 2025 and also the first of the new liturgical year. So, in keeping with our tradition, I'll play some Christmas carols from Josh and Margot of the great Space Coaster Band after the show. And actually, I was with them singing these carols last week because in addition to being a great band, they are my friends. Check them out at www.GSCoasterBand. and our logo, the image of the dog is from a stained glass window in Santo Domingo de Silos in Spain and is taken from the website of the Dominican Friars of England's Colony of Wales. From their website, www.english.op.org. i'm Chris Odiniec. Thank you so much for listening. God bless you. God bless us all, everyone. So Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Talk to you soon in 2026.
- [63:57]
Father Ron Rolheiser
This.
- [63:59]
Chorus/Singers
This is Christ the King Shepherd's good and agency.
- [64:11]
Father Ron Rolheiser
No, it's just I'm. I'm only five days late from taking chemotherapy, so it's still a little affecting my voice. Yeah.
- [64:19]
Chris Odiniec
How are you feeling?
- [64:21]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Well, I'm feeling strong enough otherwise, so I have energy. But just a little bit of talk about that.
- [64:27]
Chris Odiniec
You were. You had a debt sentence pronounced 10 years ago and here you are.
- [64:31]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Yeah. Yeah, here I am. So.
- [64:33]
Chris Odiniec
So may God preserve you and keep you around because I benefit a lot from your. From your wisdom. And your writing.
- [64:39]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Well, you know why I'm still alive? Why is that good? The good die young. And here we have an old priest who comes to table. He says, well, the good die young. Here we are. Okay.
- [64:53]
Chris Odiniec
That'S terrific. Well, thank you, Father. And perhaps I'll read. What was the one that you said I should read?
- [65:00]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Huli Longi.
- [65:01]
Chris Odiniec
Longi. Yeah. Well, maybe we can do it again. Thank you very much.
- [65:07]
Father Ron Rolheiser
And I'm glad you like the joke, Chris, very much. Very much. You know, I want to tell you another one, which I thought maybe it'd be scandalized if I told this one also in aging. But this old, a grandfather, he's complaining to his grandkids about how life has passed them by. Said everything is electronic. You can't go anywhere. You got to make an appointment on, you know, on. On the Internet and so on, he says. And he said, and even money today means nothing. He said. You know, say, when I was a kid, I could go to a corner store with a dollar and come out with a bag of chips, Coca Cola, pack of gum and at a candy bar. Said, you can't do that anymore today. Said they have cameras everywhere. I thought they may be scabbleized by that.
- [65:58]
Chris Odiniec
That's pretty good. That's pretty.
- [69:10]
Chorus/Singers
To dear so.
- [69:18]
Narrator/Reader
Radiance she deserves Lord. Good king wences last love on the feast of Stephen when the snail lay around a bound deep and crisp and even Brightly shone no moon that night, though the frost was glam When a poor man came inside gathering Windsor funeral. You O hear the page and stand by me if thou knowest it Sen Yonder passage grew is he where and wideness dwelling silently Lives our goodly Kent undoing me in a mountain it lies against the forest fence my same darkness. Bring me in and bring me I Bring me pine rocks and one of them out and I shall see thee down break me. Daring age and monarch fought Brady wolves or they went to. Earning caten to pull strong. It's not the thought I knew not on our can go no longer. Mark my footsteps my good wish. Tread thou in brim boldly w shalt find the winters reached. Feast our blood last. The needy master steps he tried where there's no better. He took us to his side which do I say? And had green too Christian and.
- [73:12]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Reserve.
- [73:15]
Narrator/Reader
You now will bless the ring Shine your soul. Would be still ste we numerous snow very roundabout deep and crisp on.
- [73:41]
Father Ron Rolheiser
Bright.
- [73:41]
Narrator/Reader
Vision the moon at night though it's definitely really.
- [74:46]
Chorus/Singers
Long time. For to preserve this day this part. Bye bye Lolly love laces, bridge green.
- [75:31]
Narrator/Reader
A trump match, tin hat.
- [75:34]
Father Ron Rolheiser
This is.
- [75:38]
Narrator/Reader
He inside all of my deity.
- [76:32]
Father Ron Rolheiser
And forever.
- [76:57]
Chorus/Singers
What child is this who lay to rest on Mary's lapidly sleeping? Whom angels greet with anthem? Sweetwater Shepherds watch a keeping this. This is grace for keeping. King who shepherds governance. Haste has to bring the sound of memory. White wisely is such a me and are feing good Christian spirit. The silent will miss me. N spirit piercing through the cross.
- [78:14]
Father Ron Rolheiser
The boy.
- [79:05]
Chris Odiniec
It was a good way.
- [79:23]
Chorus/Singers
To have Incense, gold and the earth. Come, peasant king jewelry, new organ. Without a king Salvation dreams. Let the be.
- [79:56]
Marshall Poe
Joy.
- [79:57]
Chorus/Singers
For Christ is O the babe, the son of a dream. Then this is Christ the king whom shepherds g and angels sing.