New Books Network: Interview with Jacinto Cuvi

“The Edge of the Law: Street Vendors and the Erosion of Citizenship in São Paulo”

Host: Michael Johnston
Guest: Jacinto Cuvi, Associate Professor of Sociology and Development Studies, Université Libre de Bruxelles
Date: September 24, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode of New Books in Sociology on the New Books Network, host Michael Johnston interviews Jacinto Cuvi about his new book, “The Edge of the Law: Street Vendors and the Erosion of Citizenship in São Paulo” (University of Chicago Press, 2025). The discussion delves into the lived realities of São Paulo's street vendors, examining how laws, policies, and social dynamics create “edges”—places of uncertainty and precarity—around their everyday existence. Cuvi shares insights from extensive fieldwork, offers a critique of simple property-rights approaches to informality, and reflects on the broader implications for citizenship, urban governance, and research on informality.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins & Motivation of the Project

[02:32–06:16]

• Jacinto’s interest stemmed from reading Hernando de Soto's influential book The Other Path, which argued that legal property rights were the solution to informality’s economic stagnation.
• Cuvi was skeptical of this simplistic “rights fix”:

  “It felt that the image that De Soto…was giving of how these economies, these informal economies operate was kind of shallow…something that he was simplifying it to the point of distortion.” (Cuvi, 04:00)

• He pursued his own investigation during his PhD at the University of Texas at Austin, focusing deeply on street vendors in São Paulo.

2. Research Site Selection & Access Challenges

[06:16–15:30]

• Chose São Paulo over Lima for its economic importance and research infrastructure.
• Gained initial access via a local NGO working with street vendors, blending personal introductions with cold approaches.
• Candid about the difficulties and mixed reactions from vendors:

  “There is something a little intrusive about the kind of work we do…it was tough. I think I pulled it off…” (Cuvi, 13:00)

• Leveraged referrals to expand his network and also interviewed other stakeholders (politicians, police, NGO workers).

3. Approach & Theoretical Framing: Edgework and the Law

[15:30–21:45]

• Cuvi’s frame is informed by the concept of “edgework”—life on the “edge of the law.”
• Vendors aren’t simply criminals; their rights are fragile and always under threat.
• The period of fieldwork coincided with a government crackdown, intensifying this edge-of-legality.
• Cuvi is transparent about evolving his conceptual approach:

  “The original project was not so much about laws and rights and legality…it was actually through the process of…thinking about it, considering it from different angles, trying to figure out what that overarching argument is…that I came to consider rights and legality as the most interesting and…the most profitable angle to look at all this data.” (Cuvi, 18:50)

4. The Gap Between Law and Experience

[21:13–24:51]

• Explores how written law diverges from lived reality:

  “There are this text of law that stipulate…who can practice street trade, what stuff they can sell…But then life on the streets is a whole different story.” (Cuvi, 21:45)

• Law is continually made and re-made through the interactions, negotiations, and confrontations between vendors, police, civil servants, and other actors.
• Highlights how legal ambiguity fosters both conflict and solidarity, not just among vendors but between all parties.

5. Tensions, Risks, and Solidarity Among Vendors

[24:51–29:08]

• Describes fierce competition but also spontaneous acts of solidarity:

  “All the street vendors…at that moment they coalesced and together…confronted these thugs and said, listen, like, it’s hard enough to run after, to run away from the police day in, day out, you’re not going to take our stuff from us. And he got his headphones back.” (Cuvi, 27:33)

6. Politics, Reform, and Persistent Edges

[29:08–38:25]

• Licensed and unlicensed vendors have divergent politics:
  • Licensed vendors: Focused on getting or keeping their licenses, wary of broader reforms.
  • Unlicensed vendors: Deeply cynical, seeing government as corrupt and often only mobilize in response to extreme violence.
• Persistent edgework and vulnerability have deeply “disciplining” and narrowing effects on politics among both groups.
• Critique from within:

  “One criticism that several people made to the licensed ones…is that it’s really too narrowly focused on just give me my license and leave me alone. And they lack…foresight…” (Cuvi, 33:55)

• Relates these differences to Marxist categories:

  “It is…some kind of petite bourgeoisie that doesn’t really mind about inequality in its social order so long as what they have…is left alone by the state.” (Cuvi, 35:09)

7. Reflections on Informality, Law, and Citizenship

[38:25–45:47]

• Precarious legal status disciplines vendors and narrows their horizons for political action.
• Cuvi challenges the notion that informal workers are “free spirits”:

  “It helps me to maybe make some kind of counterpoint to the conventional wisdom about informal economies, which is that these workers…have their own rules…And I show that…at least when it comes to the licensed vendors, it’s not that simple…they are still…under the thumb of authorities, precisely because the rights are so fuzzy…so precarious.” (Cuvi, 39:56)

8. Scholar’s Journey & Future Directions

[40:50–46:46]

• After 15 years focused on street vendors, Cuvi reflects on a period of exhaustion and renewal.
• Current and future work:
  • Research on the 2022 Brazilian presidential election, exploring intersections of religion and material interests.
  • New project: “Informality in the State” — analyzing informality as it plays out inside bureaucracies.
• Broader ambition:

  “There is informality everywhere. But the literature on informality has focused on informal economies mostly. So I want to look at other places…what that informality does…to how people behave, to what public services are delivered or not delivered.” (Cuvi, 45:47)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Disciplining Effects of Precarity:
  “The more political sociology side of the book…looks at the disciplining effect that, that position on the edge…has over those people.” (Cuvi, 38:46)
• On Life at the Edge:
  “I don’t think I would survive more than three days dealing with all the tensions that they have to deal with.” (Cuvi, 25:24)
• On Informality in Bureaucracies:
  “There is informality everywhere. But the literature on informality has focused on informal economies mostly. So I want to look at other places…” (Cuvi, 45:47)

Segment Timestamps

• Project origins and initial skepticism – 02:32–06:16
• Selecting São Paulo, field access and methodology – 06:16–15:30
• Theoretical framing: edgework, law, liminality – 15:30–21:45
• Law ‘on the books’ vs. law ‘in practice’ – 21:45–24:51
• Competition and solidarity among vendors – 24:51–29:08
• Reform, politics, cynicism, and group differences – 29:08–38:25
• Disciplining effect of legal precarity – 38:25–40:50
• Future research and closing reflections – 40:50–46:46

Conclusion

This episode offers a compelling, nuanced account of the lived experiences of street vendors in São Paulo, revealing the legal ambiguities and political complexities at the heart of urban informality. Jacinto Cuvi’s research complicates popular narratives, showing how law, citizenship, solidarity, and survival are negotiated—incessantly—at the very edge of society’s protections. His thoughtful reflections on discipline, hope, and the possibility of change offer essential insights for anyone interested in urban studies, sociology of law, informality, or Latin America.