Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: John Armenta
Guest: Dr. Jason A. Higgins (Digital Scholarship Coordinator, Virginia Tech Publishing; Assistant Professor, Virginia Tech)
Episode: "Prisoners After War: Veterans in the Age of Mass Incarceration"
Date: November 10, 2025

In this insightful episode, Dr. Jason Higgins discusses his award-winning book, Prisoners After War: Veterans in the Age of Mass Incarceration. The conversation examines the unique experiences of U.S. military veterans—particularly those from marginalized backgrounds—who found themselves lost in the cycle of war, trauma, and incarceration. Drawing from oral histories, Dr. Higgins exposes the intersecting influences of U.S. military, carceral, and social policy since Vietnam and traces both the devastation and the grassroots activism that has emerged in response.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Book Genesis and Research Approach

• Origin in Oral Histories:
  Higgins's work grew from longstanding engagement with veterans' oral histories, starting in undergraduate studies and gaining focus on incarcerated veterans through his PhD training.

  • “I wanted to tell a story about American history over the past 50 or 60 years that centered veterans and it centered the problem that they often encountered after war...” – Dr. Higgins [03:34]

• Community-Engaged Research:
  Higgins directly engaged with formerly incarcerated veterans, community organizations, and leaders who created grassroots reforms, capturing both bottom-up (grassroots organizing) and top-down (policy reform initiators) perspectives.

  • “Veterans have been aware that veterans have come home from war and gone to prison for decades... it's just kind of been out of the spotlight.” – Dr. Higgins [04:40]

The “Military Carceral State” Concept

• Defining a New Pipeline:
  Higgins introduces the idea of a "military carceral state," describing the social-structural pipeline through which economically marginalized Americans—often from impoverished or racialized communities—move from poverty to the military (often via conscription or targeted recruitment) and later into prison.

  • “I see how these certain patterns of American civilians... get into this pipeline from poverty to war and back to poverty again, and all of the... traumas related...” – Dr. Higgins [07:26]

• Intersection With Broader Trends:
  The book ties the rise of mass incarceration directly to the end of the Vietnam War and through subsequent eras, showing how wars abroad and "wars at home" (on drugs/crime) reinforce one another.

Incarcerated Veterans: Numbers and Dynamics

• Scope and Uncertainty:
  • 1978: First significant DOJ study finds ~73,000 incarcerated veterans (one in three in the prison system at that time).
  • 2001: Estimate rises to 150,000, with veterans as a shrinking proportion as overall prison numbers explode.
  • Significantly undercounted, especially among marginalized groups, because many choose not to disclose veteran status.
  • “The actual number is far greater... but, you know, that’s what I have to go by, is the numbers that the federal government provides me.” – Dr. Higgins [12:16]

“Bad Paper” Discharges and Structural Punishment

• Mechanism of Marginalization:
  "Bad paper" (less than honorable) discharges deny GI Bill, VA benefits, and more—often for issues rooted in trauma, substance abuse, or racialized military discipline.

  • “A less than honorable discharge is used as a way to kick people out of the military... All the rights that veterans have fought for for the past century or more.” – Dr. Higgins [12:46]

• Disproportionate Impact on Black Veterans:
  The crescendo: Between 1970 (6,000 discharges) and 1972 (over 25,000), bad paper discharges disproportionately targeted Black soldiers amid rising antiwar and civil rights protest.

  • “They were disproportionately black... the military jails and prisons in Vietnam... were notorious sites of racial violence.” – Dr. Higgins [15:15]

Individual Stories: Henry Burton & Others

• The Story of Henry Burton (Vietnam Vet):

  • Drafted via Project 100,000 (lowered standards, targeted black/poor men).
  • Suffered multiple wounds, serious trauma, returned home with minimal support.
  • After failed readjustment, convicted of armed robbery—a fusion of learned military skills and civilian opportunity—spent four decades in prison.
  • “His only marketable job experiences were working in a grocery store and setting ambushes in Vietnam.” – Dr. Higgins [22:53]
  • Upon release during COVID:
    • “I look forward to this new journey. This is the first time since Vietnam I will start a future with a right mind and a heart.” – Henry Burton (quoted by Dr. Higgins) [23:21]

• Recurring Themes:

  • Recidivism connected to unaddressed trauma.
  • The irony and tragedy of feeling more “at home” in prison than in civilian life.

Mental Health, Masculinity & Military Culture

• Intersecting Dynamics:
  Many vets entered the military for reasons tied to masculinity and social expectations but found their vulnerabilities and wounds weaponized against them in both the military and carceral systems.

  • “War is always attractive to young men who know nothing about it... mental health is highly gendered... these guys weren’t seeking help if they needed it, and if they did, they were punished.” – Dr. Higgins [26:18]

• Consequences:

  • High rates of substance abuse, interpersonal violence.
  • Kicked out with bad paper for behavioral issues stemming from trauma or mental health crises.
  • From 2011–2015, over 57,000 diagnosed with a mental disorder received misconduct/bad paper discharges [28:50].

The War on Drugs & Later Waves

• From Heroin to Opioids:
  Vietnam: Heroin addiction scapegoated by Nixon to explain war “failure,” leading to punitive policies at home.
  Iraq/Afghanistan: Soldiers prescribed opioids for injuries; when denied refills later, many resorted to heroin.

  • “Once the VA... gets a better sense of how these opioids are causing addiction... Afghanistan war veterans especially turned to heroin.” – Dr. Higgins [34:37]

• Policy Paradoxes:
  Many get punished by both the army and the legal system for medical issues acquired in the course of service.

Grassroots Veteran Activism

• Organizing from Within:
  Incarcerated veterans (e.g., Ari Says More, a.k.a. Haywood Kirkland) set up prison-based VA offices, lobbied Congress, and sparked a movement to collect data and advocate for incarcerated vets’ rights.

  • “He sets up the first ever veterans VA office inside a prison staffed entirely by incarcerated veterans... writing letters to congressmen.” – Dr. Higgins [36:55]

• Results:
  Temporary victories in the Carter years, later cut back, but these efforts paved the way for modern reforms.

The Rise of Veterans Treatment Courts

• Alternative Approaches:
  Spearheaded by Vietnam-era veterans, these courts (first founded 2008, Buffalo) connect judicial systems with the VA, provide community support, counseling, and services—reducing recidivism and reliance on incarceration.

  • “It connects with all of the local veteran resources in a community... to connect people in the criminal justice system to the resources that they need not to go back to jail. And it works.” – Dr. Higgins [40:55]

• Model for Non-Punitive Reform:
  Potentially scalable for other populations outside veterans.

Reflections on Policymaking, Social Change & the Present Moment

• Lessons from Incarcerated Veterans:

  • Military and prison systems reflect invisible but omnipresent pressures acting on all Americans, especially the marginalized.
  • Policymaker choices drive outcomes—if punishment frameworks can be implemented, so too can harm reduction and support-based alternatives.
  • “If there’s a lesson... it’s that there are policymakers who implement these ideas... if they can make the choice to invest in a war on drugs, they can also invest in, you know, treatment programs.” – Dr. Higgins [44:22]

• On Backsliding and Current Threats:
  Higgins expresses concern that leaders like Sec. Def. Pete Hegseth might use their influence to undo decades of slow reform, especially around gender and racial justice in the military.

  • “Pete Hegseth... would revert the military to an institution virtually designed for men of a specific type, for white men, based largely on his own white supremacist ideal...” – Dr. Higgins [47:48]

• Veterans Day Reflection:

  • Calls for commemoration focused on the complex realities of veterans' lives, not just patriotic idealization; honoring both service and the efforts at social change many have led post-uniform.
  • “Veterans are complex, they're diverse... they also represent American society. It's a microcosm of the United States as a whole.” – Dr. Higgins [52:31]

Digital Scholarship and Public Access

• Open Access Publishing:
  Prisoners After War is available online for free, thanks to institutional support—reflecting Higgins’ commitment to accessible scholarship.

  • “My audience... was the veterans I'm writing about... I tried to write it in a way that it's accessible to anyone who wants to read about it.” – Dr. Higgins [55:14]

• Ongoing Projects:

  • New oral history initiatives on queer alumni and descendants of enslaved people at Virginia Tech.
  • Developing open educational resources for oral history training.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Structural Injustice:
  “They get kicked out, they don’t have access to VA healthcare, and all of the things that they need to, you know, reintegrate successfully.” – Dr. Higgins [29:51]

• On Ongoing Activism:
  “A whole generation of Vietnam veterans... wanted to provide a better model of what it means to be an American veteran, to post-9/11 generation vets.” – Dr. Higgins [41:20]

• On Policy Choices:
  “If they can make the choice to invest in a war on drugs, they can also invest in, you know, some type of treatment programs that can provide, you know, greater access to reform and mental health care and all of the things that people need to thrive in society.” – Dr. Higgins [44:22]

• On Open Access:
  “I'm thrilled that people can read it for free because my audience... was the veterans I'm writing about... veterans are reading it... that gives me encouragement.” – Dr. Higgins [55:14]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction and Book Overview — [01:07]
• How and Why the Research Was Conducted — [03:34]
• The Military-Carceral Pipeline Defined — [07:14]
• Numbers & Demographics of Incarcerated Veterans — [09:20]
• Explaining "Bad Paper” Discharges — [12:46]
• Case Study: Henry Burton — [17:31]
• Masculinity, Mental Health & Ogo’s Story — [26:18]
• War on Drugs & its Ongoing Legacy — [32:00]
• Prison Organizing and Ari Says More — [36:55]
• Veteran Treatment Courts: What They Are, How They Work — [40:55]
• Big Picture Insights & Policy Lessons — [44:22]
• Current Policy Concerns (e.g., Pete Hegseth) — [47:48]
• How to Observe Veterans Day with Nuance — [52:31]
• Why Open Access? Digital Scholarship — [55:14]
• Ongoing and Upcoming Projects — [57:32]

Conclusion

This episode offers a sweeping, human-centered look at how U.S. military and prison systems are intertwined—particularly for the most marginalized veterans. Dr. Higgins’s research shows not only the damage wrought by policy and prejudice over decades, but also the enduring power of grassroots organization and reform. The open availability of Prisoners After War is a testament to the possibility of making such hard-earned knowledge genuinely public.

Recommended for:
Listeners interested in military history, social justice, criminal justice reform, the intersection of race and policy, and the lived experiences of American veterans.