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- [00:02]
New Books Network Announcer
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- [01:15]
Jason Reynolds
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:20]
Rebecca Buchanan
Hi, this is Rebecca Buchanan, host at New Books Network, and today I'm here with Jason Reynolds to talk about his new novel, Soundtrack. Jason, thanks for being here with me today.
- [01:30]
Jason Reynolds
Thank you for having me.
- [01:31]
Rebecca Buchanan
Jason, could you just start out by giving a bit of a synopsis above your book and telling us what it's about?
- [01:38]
Jason Reynolds
Sure, I'll try. I mean, you know, the soundtrack is, in a nutshell, a story about a group of, some might say wayward and oddball misfits who come together as they're all musicians, and they come together in New York City and they find family in each other through the music. And what they end up doing is almost going on a. Not even almost. They go on a tour as a. As a touring band that moves around underneath the ground in the New York City subway system while they navigate their own personal lives and interpersonal sort of relationships. I think, you know, ultimately this is a story about music, about the music of our lives, about the soundtrack of a place like New York City, about the inner soundtrack that exists within ourselves as well as within our relationships, and about how young people can find glue within each other, especially if they have some sort of common ground, like an instrument to share.
- [02:42]
Rebecca Buchanan
So this physical version, or the pages, the book version of this. It's sort of a unique way that this came to be. So can you kind of talk about how we got to soundtrack as a physical novel?
- [02:57]
Jason Reynolds
Trust me, it was something that. I mean, first of all, it started as a physical novel. Well, it started as a novel that never was made physical. Right. But it was written as a novel that was never published. I wrote soundtrack in 2015. At the time, I was still living in New York City, and I just. It's impossible to not be overwhelmed by the busking culture of that place and also by the genius of children who are playing underground. Right. And exhibiting their talents. And so I just wanted to honor that by writing about it, because it felt so alive to me, especially at that time. And it just didn't go. I loved it, but it just didn't go. And that happens in this industry sometimes. Ten years later, a buddy of mine, Dan, who is a producer at Penguin Random House Audio, he called me and just was like, you got anything? You know, like, I want to do something really cool. I want to work with you on something maybe original. I want to. You know, it's almost like Dan had an itch to experiment. And so I said, yeah, I got this thing that was never published, and you guys can take this and see if there's anything here for you. So soundtrack. The audio came to life. And then after the audio came to life, it made sense to sort of create an accompaniment. Now, usually this goes the other way, right? We all know that. Usually it's like we make the book and then we make the audio. In this case, we made the audio first, and then it was time to make the book. And that created a little bit of apprehension for me because technically, the book was already published in audio, Right. If we talk all this about how audiobooks count as books, then I have to then say, well, then, if that is the case, this book has technically been published. And so I don't want to go in and make edits, because we can't edit the audio. The audio exists in the world. People have listened to it, you know, and so I was like, I don't want to put out something that felt unfinished. I don't want to put out something that didn't. Didn't hold up on the page as well as it did in the ear. And so we decided to just do it as a really cool version of almost a transcript or a screenplay where you. Or script, you know, where you could read it. And it still feels like a novel, but it also feels like a script. Like both. It Becomes this hodgepodge, this really interesting way to think about story and think about the novel itself, which I'm very, very, very, very proud of.
- [05:15]
Rebecca Buchanan
I love that because I'm always like a proponent of books. However you get a book, you get a book, right? Whether you listen to it, whether someone reads it to you, whether you read it yourself, it's all a book. So I love that and I love thinking about it that way and how it plays out. So let's talk music because. Because your book is all about music and it makes. I have to tell you, it made me so happy that you had Stai's mom in a punk band and going to CBGB's and all of that. So can, can you talk a little bit about kind of. There's so many questions I have about music, but like the music that kind of grounded you in this and writing this and thinking about this.
- [06:00]
Jason Reynolds
A little bit of everything. I was fortunate to have parents that were really open and open minded with broad taste, right? Especially my father. My father was just one of these guys who, my mom always says, oh, you know, I married the bad boy. I fell in love with the bad boy. You know, it's like, you know, he had all the tattoos. This is a black man in the 1970s covered in tattoos, right? Which was a. Which was not a thing at that time. Covered in tattoos. He's got the gold chains and the alienated glasses and the motorcycles and all of that. And he was listening to. Right. He also was like the main caretaker for his kids, for our, for us, the kids. And so he would get us in the morning, he would, he would clean us up and dress us and feed us and take us to school. And on the way to school, you know, you would listen to whatever he was listening to, which was like Hendrix or the Sex Pistols or Zeppelin or Bob Marley or, you know, Bruce. Actually both Bruce's Springsteen and Hornsby, right? And then he's got like, you know, he's got like the yacht rock era where he's listening to Michael McDonald and he's got, you know, hall of notes. And so I'm a kid singing my heart out. You know, I'm listening to Genesis, right? And we're just singing in the car because that's just what was on the radio. This is before the airpod, before the individual sort of music listening experience. We were forced to listen to whatever our parents were listening to. And then James Brown might come on and then he would cut our hair. When he would cut our hair, it was more Time to listen to music. So he would always play. You know, I'll never forget being a kid in 1988 when the Tracy Chapman album came out, because my father played it ad nauseam. But he only played it when he was cutting our hair. For some strange reason, he never played it in the morning. He only played it when he was cutting our hair. And so hearing Tracy Chapman's voice, that album sort of lives in my spirit in a really interesting way. My father was the man who introduced me to Nirvana. My father was the one who was like, hey, man, have you heard this? And he would play, you know, it's crazy to think about it now. He would play the In Utero album. And of course, I'm like, what is this? It's blowing my mind and making me uncomfortable at the same time, because I'm not sure what is happening, but I know my body is reacting to it in an interesting way. It's. I'm drawn to it and repelled by it simultaneously and trying to understand, to figure it out, because I'm young and my dad has given it to me, right? Which means, like, you know, we're listening to the blues and B.B. king, we're listening. And then I had this older brother, my older brother, listening to all this rap music, and he's like, heavy into Run DMC and Kumo D and KRS1 and Public Enemy and NWA. And then I'm from DC and so we listen to Go Go music. And it's its own sort of, like, music rooted in all these tribal traditions and African traditions and funk and blues and jazz and. And so that's playing then. My mom is a Southern woman, and so we're listening to the Temptations, Motown, Stacks Records. We're listening to Chess Records. We're listening to gospel music on Sundays. We're listening to funk music on Saturday nights. Where, you know, like, this is all happening around me. And I love it all. I love it all. And I, I. There's something about growing up in a. In a space that is inundated with sound in that way. Different versions of music, right? To listen to Joni Mitchell, to listen to Nina Simone, and then to listen to Slick Rick right after that. It's just as much a part of my rearing as my mother and father's sort of, like, foundational ethics. And I think that's what you see in this book. It's really about, like, this is a everything book where we can throw it all in there. All the music matters in this book. So, like, there's punk. And there's funk and there's jazz and there's blues and there's. And there's the environment that makes its own sound. And then there's tap. The way that the metal of a tap shoot, the tap itself, the way it sounds on wood, the way that legs move when making, like, syncopation using the body, right? And how, like, that is what a drummer is doing, let alone a tap dancer. Like, all this stuff, I just. I could go on forever. This is what I mirrored out about. And this also, by the way, is the way I think about all of my books, is that I write on a metronome, right? That metronome may not be in my physical space, but it exists in my head all the time. I write to a click track. And so my language and the way that the story is supposed to sound or feel, there should be some rhythm there. It should feel like this is written in rhythm. So much so that I'm willing to bend and break literary rules to implement the rhythm of this, to make sure that the rhythm is exacting and that it feels like you're kind of on this rally. This is a song.
- [11:02]
Rebecca Buchanan
I love that. And I love the bringing music to the reader, right? To young people and saying, like, hey, I'm gonna put all this in. Maybe you know it, maybe you don't. And I want to give it to you. Like, one of my favorite things to do is drive in the car with my teenager because then we actually listen to music together, right? Because she. And I usually let her put it on, you know, like, so. Because that's the thing, because we're often, like, you mentioned, people have their, you know, earbuds in and they're listening to music by themselves. And so another thing I love about this is you see the community that's formed when you listen to music together, right? And you think about music together and how that can kind of bond people as well. So there's. There's all these ways you sort of get at that.
- [11:51]
Jason Reynolds
Absolutely. I was a kid. Think about. I mean, God, you just think about, like, family reunions and, like, I can tell you the songs, right? I know that especially for. And all of our. We all have our own separate. We all. The beauty of our lives is that we come from these separate pockets and different cultures and different backgrounds and. Right. And I know that in my particular culture, in black American culture, Frankie Beverly gonna play at your cookout, at your family reunions, right? This is. Earth, Wind and Fire is going to play the Electric Slide. Is Going to play by Marshall Griffiths. There's these specific things that we are expecting to hear. They signal something to us, right? And what they're signaling more than anything is that you're safe here. Right? This is where love is. This is where family is. Right? Music has a way of triggering that. And perhaps. And so I really value that you do this with your teenager because I think perhaps we might take it for granted.
- [12:42]
Rebecca Buchanan
Yeah, no, we spend a lot of time, like I do. I, I, I think about it. I think about the way I grew up in Minnesota. So my children know that I believe Prince can do no wrong music wise. Like, I'm like, you know, you can never say anything bad about Prince. I got re. I got really sad when I showed his symbol to my class. And I was like, what does this represent? And they didn't know. And I'm like, we're gonna have a music lesson and a history lesson. But, but these are those things where, Right. Like, so having those discussions. So when my children are, like, sending me, like, things about certain musicians or certain, like, because they know, because we've had that history and discussion. And, like, you have that in the book, too. Like, thinking about, like, how do parents pass on some of those music history and music memories? My children don't have to like the same music that I do. But we're thinking, and we're passing on those memories, and we're like, hopefully giving them the chance to, like, explore and love something for themselves. Right? And you kind of see that in the book.
- [13:41]
Jason Reynolds
Yes, yes, yes. And, you know, I think, you know, I like to think of literature. I like this idea around being bibliogenic. Right. Which means one book begets another. But I think the same could be said for music, right? I mean, I think about Nina Simone and how my discovery of Nina Simone did not come from my mother. It came from Lauryn Hill. Right? Lauryn Hill sang it in a rap song. Right? While you're imitating Al Capone, I'll be Nina Simone. While defecating on your microphone. Right now, for me, all I could hear is, well, I know who Al Capone is. Growing up in my neighborhood, for whatever reason, all of our older brothers idolized Italian gangsters, right? Scarface, the Godfather, Alcope. It was like a weird thing. I mean, so much rap music was based around the strange idolization of Italian gangsters, right? But that second name, Nina Simone, I did not know. And so I remember going to my mother and being like, do you know who this, what does this mean? Like, who is this. And my mother's saying, oh, let me show you something, right? And going and pulling out records. And that's listening to four Women. And my mother being like, do you feel anything? Listening to Mississippi Goddamn or Four Women or you know what I mean? Or cinema. Do you feel anything? And I'm like. And for me, it was like the texture of her voice sort of. It does something to the bones of you, to the marrow of you, right? And that comes from me listening to music, making more music for me, right? Story begetting story, right? Experience begetting experience. This is the. This is truly the secret beauty of our lives. It's the Paradise Podcast.
- [15:12]
Ryan Michelle Bathe
I am your host, Ryan Michelle Bathe with my husband Sterling.
- [15:16]
Jason Reynolds
What's up?
- [15:17]
Ryan Michelle Bathe
Join us here on Hulu and Hulu on Disney, where we'll discuss each episode with the cast and crew of Paradise. I'll be getting all the secrets from Dan Fogelman, James Marsden, Shailene Woodley, Julianne Nicholson and Sterling Kelby Brown. Paradise, the official podcast is now streaming
- [15:35]
Jason Reynolds
and stream paradise on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.
- [15:41]
Rebecca Buchanan
So I could talk about music forever, but I want to talk about Xavian Glover because he had a moment and you brought back that moment for me, right? I was like, oh, I forgot about Taps, like those things where you triggered this. So can you talk a little bit about Glover and using tap and thinking about that with rhythm and.
- [16:02]
Jason Reynolds
Yeah, I mean, I think so. This is another one of those examples, right? We, we see a young Savion Glover when he's, gosh, he's like a little boy with Gregory Hines and Sammy Davis Jr. He's this little boy. There was, you know, there's this movie tap, right? And. And the famous challenge, the famous, you know, the challenge scene where they're going back and forth and there's a little boy off to the side, this little tap dancing ingenue that we would soon get to know very well. And then when he gets old enough to sort of do his own thing, he decides to do it in the way that he looks like us. He did it, like, at the time, the culture, hip hop was becoming a global phenomenon, right? And it was gritty and it felt honest and it felt rebellious, which made it feel dangerous to some, not to me, right. But because I was on the rebellion side, right? But if you were on the opposite side of that, it felt a little dangerous. And Savion comes in, he comes through the tradition of the great Sammy and, you know, the Sly Brothers and Nicholas Brothers and Gregory Hines, except he's like, but, guys, it's 1996. It's 1997. We wear baggy jeans, we grow our hair long, we walk a certain way, we talk a certain way. There's a certain kind of oomph with us. I might not be able to put on the suit anymore, right? My shoes are still the shoes. My taps are still on these shoes. But maybe I have on boots, and the taps are on boots or the taps are on sneakers. And I'll never forget seeing him as a young man bringing the noise, bringing the funk. Even the fact that he created. I mean, the fact that it's called bringing the noise, bringing the funk using. And even the way it's spelled right, defunk, right? Which was for us, this is all us pushing back against that which was supposed to be the standard. Especially in something as traditional and as sort of standardized as dance. And him saying, like, nah, we gonna mix some of this with, like, hip hop. We gonna mix some of this with the neighborhood, the train line, right? The sidewalk, the fire hydrant, the block party, the hair salon, the bodega, right? We gonna put all of that in it, too. And I remember reading an article about him years and years and years ago back then. Cause I was obsessed with him. I thought he was like. And I knew people who knew him. I went to school with, like, his friends, people who were in that show who were good friends of mine. And just even being around them was like, man, can you tell me Savion's stories? Like, what is he like? And people would always say the brilliance of him was that he never had to lift his foot very high off the ground. That so much of his sort of magic came from the fact that he could make such a loud sound with very little movement. And I think there are other people that I attribute that I put in this category who actually happen to be drummers. Right? For instance, Questlove. Questlove. The genius of Questlove isn't that he is a showman, because he's not. The genius of Questlove is that he could take the most intricate pattern and play it for an infinite amount of time without dropping a beat, without missing a beat, Right? That thing, Right? The sort of. The technicality of it, the precision of it, Right? And so when I think of Saving Yan, I just. I think I just. He's another one of those people who just kind of lives in me, and I wanted to sort of incorporate that specifically, those two things, drumming and the precision of drumming, and that it's all about, like, it's not about flair as much as it is about understanding the purpose and the function of sound. Right. And of rhythm and of beat and of meter and of timing. Right. Like these sorts of things and they just seem to make sense to me. I saw Savion one time walking down the street in Soho years and years ago, and I thought I was going to pass out. I didn't have the courage to really say much to him. I think he was kind of like. But by then he had kind of slipped into more of a quiet space and no one really could knew who he was kind of moving around. I'm like, holy moly. Like, he's. And then even that. The idea of a guy being in the spotlight this way and burning so bright and then I think choosing to kind of slide out of the way speaks to, like, the best of the musicians. Right. The mystique of a prince. That. Right. It's interesting.
- [20:18]
Rebecca Buchanan
And slide out of the way in your own terms, right. And not in your own terms. Right. Like, that's. Yes.
- [20:24]
Jason Reynolds
I think that's Tracy Chapman, Bill Withers. Right. We've seen this. And I'm going to go ahead and just go this way for a little while.
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Rebecca Buchanan
Yeah. I'm gonna do my thing and you can follow or not, and I really don't care.
- [20:33]
Jason Reynolds
You're thinking about doing it myself, but just sliding out a little bit.
- [20:38]
Rebecca Buchanan
Yeah. Like. Right. Like sometimes you just need your time. Right. I need to be alone. I need to step back and watch it all go. Like, when you're talking about that and like, I think of then, like, you have this. This sort of protagonist. You're one of your protag. Your protagonist, Right. Your narrator, who is like the drummer, I mean, with the bass. But the drummer really holds the band together. Right. And so you have this protagonist who's trying to hold the band together while things in his personal life are not going well. And you do this lovely thing, I think, often in your work where you give us this story and then you're like, okay, and we're going to dive deep and I'm going to dump you into something that you kind of don't expect. But. But it. But then you get there and you're like, yes, I needed this. Right. But so can you talk a little bit about that? Like this. This, like having. I don't know. How do I want to. It's early on a Monday morning. How do I want to say this? Like having this character who is trying to make it in this band, make it in this world, but Also watching the person he loves most in the world really be harmed, right? Be hurt.
- [21:51]
Jason Reynolds
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I think all of us have got it so cliche these days because everybody uses really weird language now. And, you know, language that wasn't weird, that becomes weird because we all adopt it and becomes tweetable and weird sound bites, like. And one of those things is like, what's your. Why I hate it so much, right? But everybody does have. There is something that catalyzes us. All, right? My. You know, I've been in therapy for a long, long time, and so much of being therapized is figuring out what has catalyzed me to be the person that I am, good and bad, right? The parts of me that are. That are challenging and the parts of me that I'm proud of all are coming from some particular space, usually something that happens in our childhoods, right? This is. It's the most fascinating part of the therapeutic experience, right? It's like, wow, you're right. I was trying to please my mother, right? And I still am, right? You're, like, crying, you know, But I think. I think. I think in order to make a character that feels worthy of carrying the weight of a story, they have to have been given the oomph and the strength to do so. And that would mean that we need to know what is driving a person to cleave to his friends and what is driving a person to play what some could consider and could be considered a violent instrument. Not because drumming is violent, right? I wanna be clear here. Drumming is not violent, but drumming requires you banging on something. It requires a particular kind. Like that sound comes from knocking on something, right? You can kick. You could literally kick your bass drum to the point that you put a hole in the drum head, right? You can actually harm this instrument if you're too forceful and you can take out aggression on the drum. And so how do we balance this kid who really has real things that he's concerned about, real anger and a righteous indignation, an anger that he should hold. And he plays an instrument that could allow him to. Or he plays sort of an instrument. He creates a makeshift version of an instrument that can allow him to bam it out while also understanding the necessity for love and safety and comfort and the warmth of another person and understanding what love is. I think that is what creates the sophistication of that character, right? And the nuance. And that says, okay, we can trust him to carry the story to tell us and to walk us through whatever These waters are going to be.
- [24:37]
Rebecca Buchanan
Can we. I really love Frankie, right? And how kind of Frankie comes into this. We have this group of young people who are older, and they kind of take this, like, younger, you know, not child, but this younger. This young one into their fold and make him part of this. And so can you talk a little bit about that character of Frankie and how he sort of came to be and came in this space?
- [25:05]
Jason Reynolds
I was always a Frankie, right? Like, people don't think about the fact that, like, usually, especially if you live in an urban environment, if you live in a city and it's busy and noisy and tricky in certain places and, you know, you're kind of navigating the wilderness of urban. Of the urban landscape. There's always a little man with you. There's always like. And look, sometimes the little man is with you because he ain't got nowhere else to be, right? And it's like, yo, where's your mother? Where's. And at some point, you stop asking and you're like, all right, look, yo, like, you. You with us, sometimes that's a great thing, could save a life, but sometimes it's the worst thing that could happen to a kid, right? Because now that kid learned something that that kid may not have needed to learn. I was. When I was coming up as a young poet and wanting to, like, have my voice heard, and I'm 13 and 14, 15 years old, they would let me in these clubs, right? I had these older guys who were always around me who would take me to these clubs in D.C. and that I was not supposed to be allowed in. And the doorman would always say, all right, look, we're going to let you in, but you got to sit in the back. And I would say, well, I'm assigned the list. I want to get up. And they were like, man, you going on last right now. It's like one o' clock in the morning. I'm outside, right? My mother, who knows, she doesn't know where I'm at. I'm outside waiting for my chance. The place is emptied out, and I'll get up there and I read my poetry, right? But I always. And now, at 42 years old, I look back and I think about Delonte, my one of the guys who kept me with him. Dave and Femi, these guys who. Who saw that, like, yo, this little kid is. Is hungry and he's thirsty for what it is that we're introducing him to. He wants more of this. He. He's found something here, and he's trying to figure out ways to express himself as often as possible. And he's young and he's not supposed to be in these spaces. But we'll keep him around us. We'll make sure that the street don't get him. We'll make sure that he doesn't quit writing, that he feels confident in this thing that he's leaning toward. And I'll always be grateful for that. And I'll always think about, like, what young person can I keep around me? And there are lots of them around me all the time. You know, these. Whether they're 20 or whether they're 13, 14. I try to keep some of that young energy around me. Because you never know who life you might be saving, right? Just them seeing you. I love this Mike Tyson story where he talks about. He was in the penitentiary. He's in the youth prison. And he talks about Muhammad Ali had come to the youth prison. And he said I was in trouble. He said. He said he was in trouble. And so he could not go to the assembly to see Muhammad Ali. He said, but I looked out my door and he walked past, and he said, just seeing him. Just seeing him in real life was enough to let me know that I could be great. Just seeing him in real life. And I think about it all the time. The neighborhood. I live in a regular neighborhood. These kids walk by here all the time. And, oh, Mr. Jason live right here. They all know that matters to me, right? Keeping the young boy, keeping the Frankie with you at all times. Making sure they know, hey, let me show you. Hey, I. I know what. I know the temptation, but come this way. I'm gonna take you to the bookstore and show you something. Come with me to this event. You know what I mean? Come. Come hop in the car. We're gonna drive around the city and talk about something else. You know, listen to this music, right? That. That really, really, really matters. And so Frankie just seemed like a natural addition to the story.
- [28:31]
Rebecca Buchanan
You talk about neighborhood. That's another thing I wanted to talk to you about. Like, I lived in Philly for a long time, and. And when I was teaching, my students were very much like, if you go this one block, we're in a totally different. Like, your neighborhood is not my neighborhood, right? And you do this in soundtrack with thinking about New York and even whether they're traveling to different boroughs or whether they're going to different places. And even if you're from that space, you can go a couple blocks or 10 blocks or whatever it is and not be Comfortable. So can you talk about the. Like, the city and the neighborhood and how that kind of plays also a role in the novel?
- [29:10]
Jason Reynolds
Of course. You know, the New York City and all major urban, you know, metropolises are all places that you just abide by the rules, right? Like, you just have to, like. It's no different than a person who's like, I love when I. Even my friends from other places, other countries, you know, I love the way they talk about Americans because they'd be like, yeah, man, you know, I'm from, you know, from Togo. And, you know, sometimes Americans will come over and they want to go see something that I'm trying to explain to them is just not a good idea. And they're like, no, no, I really need to see it. And I'm like, don't go there. This is not a good idea. And then terrible things happen, and they're confused about why terrible things happen. But it's no different than any kind of city environment. It's like, look. And it's not that these places are war zones. It's not like that. It's just that they abide by particular rules, and if you don't know those rules, that you put yourself in precarious situations, right? And so, like, I remember living in Brooklyn. I lived on Decatur street, and Decatur street was. My particular block of Decatur street was beautiful. If you went two blocks down, though, it could get a little dicey. And we knew that. And so when I had to go down there, I just abide by the rules. Mind your business. You know, keep your eyes and ears open. Turn your music off, listen to what's happening around you. You know, back then, we used to have headphones. You put one. Keep one ear out, you know, keep one hand in your pocket, right? These sort of tricks that we learned about survival, right? But. But in New York, you could also see it on the train line. I lived on the A train. And when you were on the A train, you knew you were coming through. You coming through East New York, you're coming through Bed Stuy, and then you come through Fort Greene, and. And so you're still. It's all very black. It's all very sort of energetic. And then you. You knew that, like, once you got past 14th street, things were going to start shifting. Now there's more tourists, right? 14th Street, 34, 34th Street. Now you're in Times Square. You know, that's going to be mostly tourists, right? And then you're going to keep going. And the further now you get closer To Columbus Circle. Everybody's white, right? It's changing, right? The culture is changing. Everything is shifting, right? Upper west, things are shifting, right? And then you get to. You get past 110th, everybody's black again because now you're in Harlem, right? And you could just kind of like, see the ebb and the flow of the city, of the cultural pockets of the city based on what stop you were on on that train. I think that's magical. It felt. It's a cool thing to consider, right? Not in any kind of, like, negative way. It's just a fascinating thing. And we would always be so. I mean, you know, as. As the neighborhood start changing, also you would be like, we're at 125th. Who are all these white people, right? Because you're like. You're like, wait a minute, what's. And things are starting to change, right? You're like, oh, maybe they go to Columbia, right? And then you're like, oh, maybe they just live here, you know? And. And you start to see the neighborhoods change based on. Based on changes in who's on the train. Still, once you get to 125th or once you get to Utica, you know, Utica Ave. In Brooklyn, right? And I think that that's really what it is. It's just. It's just. Honestly, it's just sort of the way. I don't know the right word, but it's sort of. It's just the way cities work. You know, it's this interesting sort of mapping, you know, the internal mapping. It's like the veins of a city. And you can know what vein is connected to what organ, right? Like based on particular things. And it's just a beautiful thing.
- [32:34]
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- [33:20]
Rebecca Buchanan
I. I was thinking when I would. In Philly, there was this one bus route that I would tell my students, if you get on the beginning and ride it all the way to the end and pay attention. There's so many stories, right? But that's it. Like, I'm like, just ride the bus route, like, sit in the back, don't cause any problems, you know, don't do anything dumb and just like, enjoy it and like, watch a change. Right? Because there's so many stories. Yeah. So like, all the stories that exist. Yeah. That's awesome. So, like, in the city. Can you talk about the kind of this culture? Like, they are. They're playing the city, right? They're playing around the city. They're playing music in the city, which is something that. That not all cities have. Not even all major cities have the kind of underground music scene that New York has in this way. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like playing the subway, Playing. Playing outside.
- [34:18]
Jason Reynolds
And, you know, I'll tell you, I don't. I haven't been to another city yet that has. That. Does it like New York does it? I think it's a very specifically a New York City thing. I've never seen it. Not. Not in. Not in London, not in Paris, not. Definitely not in D.C. in this way. And not in Chicago in this way. Right. Like, not in Philly. Right. It's like, it's such a New York City thing. And we have buskers, but just not to this extent. Right. You could go under the New York City subway system and see hat. And see. And see, you know, a string quartet that's a professional quartet who's just like, yeah, you know, we're just working out under here, right, with the rats, you know, but that's a. Or the fact that they have, you know, an entire subway series, right, where they. Where they actually book people to come. You know, I mean, I just saw this. This movie, you know, this guy just got this Oscar for this short film. I think it's called the Singers. Have you seen this?
- [35:14]
Rebecca Buchanan
No, I haven't, but now I'm going to write it down and see it.
- [35:17]
Jason Reynolds
It's a brilliant short film. It just won an Oscar. And. And one of the main characters of that film is a guy we all know. If you live in New York City and take the New York City subway system over the last 20 years, you know, this man, right? All of us, everybody, he is a New York City subway superstar because he's a. He's a. This. This older black gentleman with the voice of God. This man can sing and he sings these soul ballads. And I mean, he's probably the only man who can sing, who can override the rumble of the Train as it's pulling in, right? The timbre of his voice can cut through the thunder and screech of the train, right? And to see him, this is a subway singer who has an Oscar. Now that's a New York City thing. That's a very specific thing, you know, and there's so many people, I mean, Gabby Sidibe, you know, Gabor Sidibe's mom, we used to see her all the time down there singing. She had a beautiful voice. And her daughter is now Gabriel Sidibe. Right. And I think it's just. So busking isn't just a way for me to make a couple dollars. Busking is potentially a way for me to make it out. It might just be a way for me to be discovered for someone else to hear me. I mean, they sell C, they sell albums and they've got. I mean, these aren't. You know, there was a guy, years ago, this is back in like 09, who used to sing on the C train, the A train and the C train, and he had this screechy voice. He only sang Bob Marley songs. And his voice was almost like he had been wrecked, like his vocal cords had been obliterated by something. And so his voice was very much so. Like how Miles Davis's voice ended up, right? Like almost non existent, or at least it was scratchy in a way that you could just tell that there was damage done. There had been damage done. And he was singing these Bob Marley songs. And it was something about going to work, listening to him sing Redemption Song. And this very, almost a whisper of a voice that still lives in my psyche, right? I. I can still, I can smell the training when I think of this man. I can. I. Right? And I. But this is all very much so a New York City thing. The idea of being an underground artist in New York could be a literal thing. A literal thing, right? You're not just underground because you're undiscovered or because you're independent. You're underground because you're actually under the earth playing your music every day. There's a trumpet player who. I know any New Yorker, if you ride on the F train, right, is a trumpet player that we all know. He's been playing down there for years. He's a genius with the trumpet, been playing down there for years, right? And I think this is. It gives me goosebumps just thinking about all the brilliant musicians I've seen. I mean, the drummers, right, who by the way, get on our nerves because they come onto the train, right? They Come on the train. And they, you know, and they're gonna play the. Play the conga drums, and it's gonna be great. But you're like. You're taking up so much. You and this drum are taking up so much space, and we don't have a lot of space. It's rush hour, y', all, in here banging on these drums. I'm exhausted. I'm tired. I'm trying to read. And you're on here. But really, it's like. But this is what makes. This is the glue, right? Or what are the. It's the drummers, and it's another one. Oh, the mariachi band. When the mariachi band crowds into the. Because it's always a gang of them, right? And they crowd into the train. But, like, that's. But the way that I can call. I haven't lived in New York in a decade, but the way that I can call these people out like this. This is what I'm saying, right? When we talk about, like, music serving as trigger to memory, right? And this is why it is so important, you know? And so, yes, in New York, that is a very, very, very, very, very real thing.
- [39:08]
Rebecca Buchanan
And it also. Because it is so real, it gives hope to anyone, right? Like, young people can see that, and you can be annoyed or you can love it. You can see it. And it gives you hope, right? It lets you say, like, there are. What I appreciate, too, is this idea that there are multiple ways to be in this world and to find your space in this world. And it does not have to be that. I'm gonna go and I'm going to, like, go straight to school or go get a Right. Like, you can play music and be in this space and make art however you want to do it, right? And it gives voice to that. And I appreciate all of that.
- [39:46]
Jason Reynolds
It is the greatest gift of a place like New York. And that part of it doesn't actually have to just exist in New York, but it is like, if people. And I want people to want to move to New York City, right? I don't live there anymore. I could never live there again. But there is something about that particular place that makes everybody feel like everybody. They could be anybody they want, and they could do anything they want because you can see somebody who's doing it, hey, this person seems to get up every single day, come to the bottom of the A train at this particular stop, and play their music for three, four hours every day. So why can't I? I could do that. And nobody, any, either People are not paying attention or people are paying attention, but no one is being unkind. This is the thing that people don't understand, right? Either I'm going to ignore you, or I'm gonna pay attention to you, but I'm not going to heckle you for playing your music, right? I love when I see, like, the old Chinese ladies playing that one, that instrument that's like a single bow, right? It's like a stringing bow. And they're playing it, and it's got that whiny right? And they're playing it, and everyone is either either you with it or you're not with it, but no one is saying, please, lady, enough, right? No one is doing that. Which means. Which means the amount of courage it takes to do so is actually less because there's less judgment. It will be harder for you to do that in Philly than in New York city or in D.C. than in New York City, right? In New York, either you're going to be ignored or not. And the people who ignore you won't bother you. And the people who don't ignore you are paying attention to see what they can find in the thing that you're doing, which will then energize you to do more. What's to lose here, right? And I think that there's something about that that I think I want every young artist to feel. I felt it at 19, 20 when I got to that city. I was like, oh, I'm gonna make my dreams come true. And I did. Ferociously ran after them because I felt like the city created a conduit for my ferocity.
- [41:45]
Rebecca Buchanan
And I feel like those artists can teach us all, especially right now, something about you can, like, go with it, like, be with that person, be in that space. Or if you don't like that space, it's okay, you can go somewhere else, right? Like, you don't need to fight them for wanting to be in that space, right? Let them be in the. Let them be, right? I could probably talk to you forever, especially about music. So I'll ask you two final questions, but one is like, what are you listening to right now? Right? Like, you have your soundtrack in here, but what are you listening to?
- [42:16]
Jason Reynolds
I'll tell you. I'll tell you. I'm going to look on my phone that. Because I've been listening to some really good stuff I'm obsessed with. There's this in the mornings. I love listening to this. I think this person is Brazilian, and his name is Nyron Hegore N Y R O N H I G O R I could listen to that. I could listen to his album all day, every day. I mean, I think it is a masterpiece. And sound and tone and mood. Right. Like, music as mood. Right. I think it's just brilliant. I've been listening to Elmine. This kid's got a voice out of this world. I love Elmin. I love the new Flea album. Flea put out a jazz album a couple days ago. I'm a big Chili Peppers guy. Because I was my generation. I came up on the Chili, but my dad was all about, like. That was another one of those things. He's like, you need to listen to this, right? And we're like. I'm, like, totally into Anthony Kiedis. And I'm like. I'm like, he don't rap like the people I listen to rap, but I do like this, right? Like, I did. You know what I mean? He don't even rap as good as the Beastie Boys.
- [43:27]
Rebecca Buchanan
No. You'll give him a pass.
- [43:28]
Jason Reynolds
But the music is so good, right? John Frusciante on the guitar. And, like, I'm like, this is good, right? Flea is. And then to see Flea play the bass is like. Is like watching someone in an ecstatic state. You're watching someone going through what feels like almost like. It almost feels like a spiritual experience in some kind of way. And there's something about that that I've always loved to just watch. Flee. Yeah, so. And I think he's so percussive. He's so, like. But his personality is so soft, which I think is such a. Like, it's beautiful. I love. So I'm listening to a lot of that. There's another kind of jazzy band I'm listening to. Fabiano. I don't know if you know, it's a long. I think it's Brazilian as well. Fabiano. Don. Look, the name of the album is V, I'll tell you that. V V I L A. And it's. It's. I mean, it's. It's beautiful enough to make you cry. And it's just. Most of it is just instrumental, but it's beautiful enough to make you cry and. And on and on. I've got. I mean, I'm listening to some New Orleans bounce music. I'm listening to, you know, James Blake's new album, which is another one. That's a stunner. I listen to all this old stuff, of course. Like, I'm still listening to Johnny Winter and B.B. king and the blues and, oh, Lovers Rock, reggae music, boots reggae music on Sunday mornings. And I mean, I'm whatever, I love it all. I'm, I, I look at music the way I look at everything else in my life where I step into that space trying to find what I love, not trying to decipher what I hate. I'm not interested in listening or engaging with art to try to figure out what I don't like about it. I'm interested in, like, what do I like about it.
- [45:15]
Rebecca Buchanan
Yeah. And where do I find more of that? Yes, I love that idea. Like, where do I find more of that? And where does that. Yeah. Where does it all connect? Because otherwise we're all complaining about how much. Yes. And yeah, yeah.
- [45:26]
Jason Reynolds
Set up a way to live. Right. That's weird.
- [45:28]
Rebecca Buchanan
It's no, yeah, no, it's no fun at all. So final, like sort of self promo, the book comes out, what, April 14th. Am I right? Am I right with that around right the middle of April, but what else. So what do you have going on with the book? Anything else you're working on that you want to promote? Share?
- [45:46]
Jason Reynolds
Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm always worried about promoting other things only because I have to finish those things and I don't like to put myself on the hook. Life is. Life is. It was a wild ride. I mean, look, we'll be doing some press around this book and so forth and so on. The usual, you know, run around promoting this book. But I, but, but what I really want to promote is all the ways that one might engage with story, right? I really want people to look at this as an interesting way to engage with a story and that, and that a book is just the encasement, right? A book is just what we value in life is our books. It's stories, right? It's like, I don't care if this is an audio thing or if this is on the page or if, if what's on the page doesn't remind you of the books that you've read, right? That, that, that what we're going into this for is for the story itself. If you are a writer or somebody who's engaged in literature in that way, then to, to look for craft, right? Because there is so much craft here in this space or to think about what, what one might be able to do with language and format when it comes to storytelling and breaking some of the molds or at least bending them, and that none of it sort of bastardizes or perverts what it is to engage with literature. It's all still literature to me, it's all just poetry. All of it right in my mind. But that scares people. So for me, it's all still literature. All of it. Whether it's. Whether they're songs or a script or a transcript or a piece of audio, it's all literature to me.
- [47:29]
Rebecca Buchanan
And we make sense of the world through story. They're all beautiful stories, right?
- [47:33]
Jason Reynolds
The most human thing we have, our story.
- [47:36]
Rebecca Buchanan
Jason, thank you so much for talking with me on New Books Network when your new book soundtrack is out, But I really appreciate it.
- [47:42]
Jason Reynolds
Of course. My pleasure.