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Jeffrey Kroessler, "Rural County, Urban Borough: A History of Queens" (Rutgers UP, 2025) This
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- [00:00]
Marshall Poe
Hello everybody. This is Marshall Poe. I'm the editor of the New Books Network and if you're listening to the New Books Network, I imagine you like to read and I'm wondering if you have a goal to read more this year. How about a goal to read more of what you love and less of what you don't? The Proofread Podcast is here to help. Hosted by Casey and Tyler, two English professors and avid readers with busy lives, Proofread helps you decide what books are worth spending your precious time on and what books aren't. They feature 15 minute episodes that give you everything you need to know about a book to decide if you should read it or skip it. You'll get a brief synopsis, fun and witty commentary, no spoilers, and no sponsored reviews. It's just what Casey and Tyler think. Life's too short to read a bad book. So subscribe to the Proofread Podcast today. And by the way, there's a new season coming. Thanks very much.
- [00:54]
Laura Heim
Kids.
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- [01:24]
Laura Heim
So good, so good, so good.
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- [01:44]
Marshall Poe
Welcome to the New Books Network.
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Rob Snyder
The borough of Queens is the largest of New York City's five boroughs. It holds more people than Chicago or Los Angeles. The story of its development embraces the whole of American metropolitan history, and thanks to immigration, it is today home to a population of extraordinary ethnic, religious and linguistic diversity. Queens is also the subject of a new book by Jeffrey Rural County, Urban Borough A History of Queens, published by Rutgers University Press. Cressler, an expert on the history and preservation of Queens, was working on the final edits for Rural County Urban Borough when He died in 2023. His wife, the architect Laura Heim, shepherded the book into publication. She selected and placed the images in the book and wrote its preface and Acknowledgments I am Rob Schneider, Manhattanborough historian and I'm talking to Laura today for the New Books Network and the Gotham center for New York City History. Welcome, Laura.
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Laura Heim
Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [02:50]
Rob Snyder
Glad to have you with us. We have listeners all around the world, many of whom have never been to Queens. Where is Queens and what's its geography like?
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Laura Heim
Well, I always like to start with a map of Queens as a visual. It's behind me, actually, but it's in reverse. But Queens is located in between Long Island, Nassau county, which used to be part of Queens county, but not part of the borough, and Manhattan. And to the west, southwest is Brooklyn, and it's surrounded by water on the top and bottom.
- [03:21]
Rob Snyder
How did Queens geography shape its history?
- [03:24]
Laura Heim
Well, Queens was, is located on Long island where the terminal moraine is, which is where during the Ice Age, the last glacier ended up. And so it has a ridge which. Which separates the north and the south side, Flushing and Jamaica. And they each developed very differently, separately, basically, in the beginning, because they were trying to trade with Manhattan via Brooklyn or via the water. So this terminal moraine was a key dividing factor in the beginning. And it also had this unique Hempstead Plain, which was the only grass location located east of the Appalachians. And that was a unique natural feature that they used to race horses there. I mean, it was perfect for that. And in the end, it became purchased by Stuart to create Garden City in Long Island.
- [04:16]
Rob Snyder
Now, the title of this history of Queens, rural county, urban borough, gets at a fundamental division in the history of queens in the 17th and 18th centuries, in colonial times, in the era of the American Revolution. What was life like in this rural county? How did life in the county of Queens compare to life across the east river in New York City?
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Laura Heim
Well, the county of Queens was very rural. It was farmlands. It provided produce to Manhattan and Manhattan provided manure to Queens so that they could fertilize it. It also was the home of a huge nursery industry which is sort of forgotten now. You can see remnants of it in Cassina Park. But the Parsons had these large nurseries. They helped Calvert Box do the plantings for Central park and other parks all around. And they first imported the exotic trees. And again, there are remnants of it still in Long Island. But that was basically the lay of the land. They were little isolated developments, and Flushing was very strong then as a central place during that period. And. But. But it wasn't like a whole network of places. It was a series of special places, and the rural aspect was dominant.
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Rob Snyder
I'm struck by the enormous changes in Queens over the course of the 19th century. If somebody went to sleep in 1800 in Queens and woke up in 1890, what continuities would they notice? What changes would they see?
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Laura Heim
Oh, that's a very specific question. Let's see. 18. Say it again. The time period.
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Rob Snyder
If they, if they go to sleep in 1800 and they, and they wake up in 1890. Over those 90 years, how did the borough change?
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Laura Heim
Well, the transportation was being developed to a great extent, so it was better able to get to different places and to transport goods. So that was increasing rapidly. Industry was coming to Queens, the noxious industries, because they found in Manhattan that the factories like Steinway, it was getting too crowded and they had too many regulations, so they wanted to move out to Queens. So the beautiful sort of bucolic aspect of Queen's became filled with industry. And that was a big change right before consolidation, which happened around the end of that period.
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Rob Snyder
I'm fascinated. So it goes from being very rural and then develops quite an industrial presence by the end of the 19th century to. And then you have the vote on consolidation. And that created the city of five boroughs. Consolidation passed narrowly in Brooklyn. But I was struck how in Queens it seemed to enjoy strong support, 65%. Yet in some Queens municipalities, in Flushing, for example, only 45% of the people supported becoming part of New York City. What explains this range of perspectives in Queens on this big decision?
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Laura Heim
Well, actually that's outlined very, in very much detail in the book. Jeffrey was quite the research scholar on this component. I think it had, some of it had to do with the density of the area that for example, Nassau didn't really want to be part of the city because they weren't as developed and they, they connected more with Long island and they didn't need the development money that Queens wanted from the Manhattan from joining Manhattan. I mean, when they joined Manhattan, a lot of money came pouring into Queens which helped them do a lot of infrastructure that was lacking. So the people who really wanted that kind of development were encouraging it. And of course there were other behind the scenes backroom political things going on. Just like messy politics, which always happens.
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Rob Snyder
Yes. So the consolidated city of New York was born on January 1, 1898. And as you mentioned, the eastern part of Queens county splits off to become Nassau County. And I'm just wondering if you'd want to speculate, how might New York City have been different if that hadn't happened.
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Laura Heim
Well, you know, I kind of think it's it might be in the end good that it did because it would have made Queens extend even farther. I mean, I think keeping Queens within a certain geographic range was probably good because it could get. I mean, it could be two. I mean, it is very large now, but in terms of government, in terms of governing. And I also, like I said, I think the division in the interests sort of split in that area in terms of wanting to stay more suburban and less part of connected. And there's the whole. We don't want to be part of New York City. Right. I mean, I'm sure that there were Long Islanders who just felt like they wanted to stay part of Long Island. Yeah, it's regional as well, I'm sure.
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Rob Snyder
County of the 19th century became the urban borough of the 20th century. And I was struck by the changes in queens between the 1890s and the 1920s. What happened then, especially with regard to housing?
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Laura Heim
Well, first the Queensborough Bridge came across. And with the Queensborough Bridge, which happened primarily because of consolidation, because then the money was coming, I mean, Queens had always wanted the bridge. Again, that's another. Read the book. It's very well researched, the aspect of how the whole bridge happened, and it's very well illustrated as well. But the Queens had been agitating for that bridge for quite some time. And it wasn't until consolidation that the money was actually dedicated to try to make it happen. And once the bridge happened, I mean, whoa, the floodgate opened. It's a boom. Once you get transportation and the subways coming into Queens, it's ripe for development, it's all nurseries in rural areas, except for some small development. And I think it's really. I think it's actually an unsightly, understudied aspect of Queens. I think the experiments on housing in Queens were phenomenal. Phenomenal during this period with the. Excuse me. They were phenomenal during this period with the Garden City, with Sunnyside Gardens, Forest Hills Gardens, Boulevard Garden. All this was happening. Well, Boulevard Gardens was a little later, but all of the experiments in housing in Queens are phenomenal.
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Rob Snyder
What did the depression of the 1930s mean?
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Laura Heim
Well, in. Specifically in Sunnyside Gardens, a lot of people lost their mortgages, and there were. A lot of people were out of their. Lost their housing. And, I mean, it was a very hard time. They couldn't even fill the spaces because people couldn't afford to rent them or the mortgages for them. So, I mean, it was very difficult. And it kind of put an end to the whole innovative Garden City developments that were going on at that period. I mean, Radburn occurred in New Jersey slightly after that, but basically, they put an end to all that experimentation because there weren't. There wasn't money. But of course, the New Deal brought back a lot of that housing development.
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Rob Snyder
I was struck by the public works of Mayor LaGuardia and Robert Moses. How did they make a difference in Queens in these years?
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Laura Heim
Which years are we in now?
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Rob Snyder
In the 1930s and afterwards?
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Laura Heim
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, clearly, Robert Moses had a huge impact. I'm sure he loved it. It was a huge playground. There's so much land that he could work on. He was an amazing negotiator and amazingly adept at finding the funds and using his power. Of course, there's the Tribero Bridge. There's the Flushing Meadow Corona park, which was a dump. It was a dump. And he. He. He had this idea it should be a park. I mean, you got to give the guy credit for having some vision. He wanted it to be a park, and he knew politically if he made it part of the. The. The World's Fair, that it would. He could. He could fund the infrastructure to get to it, which. Which contributed to the whole development of Queens. You know, you can be. Say it's controversial where he put things and how he did it, but he got the money and he made Queens very accessible, and he gave us Flushing Meadow Corona park, which is a huge asset.
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Rob Snyder
The post World War II years were a time of dramatic change in New York City. But I was struck by a statistic in the book in 1971, when CBS first aired all in the Family and introduced Americans to Archie Bunker of Glendale in Queens. The borough was 85% white. What happened to that world and why?
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Laura Heim
Well, you know, actually the show is a great chronicle. It's not just what happened in Queens, it happened across the country. But if Queens was a sort of unknown place. And so people could probably find more humor in what was happening there. Cause people really didn't know what queen the place at all. But Archie Bunker just represented this working class guy watching his whole world change and everything. The societal values, who his neighbors were, what the social norms were. And I mean, it was fascinating. And it was happening in Queens. It was happening in Queens for. For many reasons. Queens is in New York. People come to New York. People come to New York from all over the world. And once they start to settle here, they're more people come with their same traditions and their same values and they sort of cluster. It's, it's actually a beautiful thing about Queens. Queens has always had all these unique neighborhoods. It's not just ethnically oriented. They always have. And what I think is interesting is when the immigrants have come over these years from the 70s on, they still create these, they care a lot about their places and they still, we're still, we still have all these distinct neighborhoods. Even though they've. Even Archie's. Even though Archie's neighborhood has changed, it's still a neighborhood with a lot of character. But you know, I can see where that I, I find that statistic mind boggling also. It's, it's just amazing.
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Rob Snyder
What can the rest of the United States learn from the Queens that was created by all these immigrants?
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Laura Heim
I think one thing that's kind of a thread in the book which starts with the Dutch and the English is the issue of religious tolerance. I think that the religious tolerance. And I'm so glad the book starts with the Dutch and the English because it kind of comes full circle at the end of the book, which is addressing sort of a similar issue. People from different backgrounds are coming, they want to do what they believe. And there's always political pressure and. But I think that this, the stage was set with the Dutch and the English and it was a given that the Quakers could worship here in Flushing. And so, I mean, I think that's kind of continued. I think Queens is in general. I mean, it's not perfect, but I think it does have a lot of tolerance for. In fact, it's part of the beauty of it. I mean, anything goes in Queens. That's part of the wonderful thing about Queens. So I think. But I think it set the stage. I think there is a lot of tolerance for different ethnicities and people like all the food here, for heaven's sakes. You know, we have a lot of opportunity and, you know, there isn't. There isn't as much social hierarchy which is advantageous to a lot of people.
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Rob Snyder
Actually, every book bears the imprint of its author. What does this book tell us about Jeffrey Cressler and his interests?
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Laura Heim
Well, Jeffrey was passionate about history, for sure. Passionate about New York City history. We'll nestle down. I mean, New York history, urban history, and of course, the history of Queens. He was also, when he began researching this book, it was his dissertation, was the core of this book in 1991. His dissertation with Richard C. Wade at the CUNY Graduate center was Building Queens. But I think that in the course of doing that research, he found all these local historians and local writers and local preservationists, and he got interested in all these groups to do his research because he has a lot of direct research. It's a lot of firsthand research. You know, it's not secondhand. So. And he was out in the field doing this research, and I think he got very interested in preservation as part of this. And I. I think it's a really unique way. He used his academic history background to inform preservation. And the preservationists really admire him because he brings to the. Well, now you can Google everything, but in the beginning, Geoffrey was the one who knew all the facts. And so whenever there were disagreements or issues in preservation, Geoffrey was like a great source of information. And I think that you see that sort of at the end of the book, you see his appreciation of the history of New York City, the history of Queens, his attempt to try to put the book in the context of New York City history, which it normally isn't put into, and the threaded together. But also at the end, he's sort of acknowledging all the local historians and preservationists who have tried to protect the place of Queens, which he cared about. I think he cared more about the place because of his interest in preservation as well.
- [17:46]
Rob Snyder
Laura, thank you for speaking with me. I'm Rob Snyder, Manhattan borough historian, talking with Laura Heim about Jeffrey Cressler's Rural County, Urban A History of Queensland, published by Rutgers University Press for the New Books Network and the Gotham center for New York City History. Thanks for joining me.
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Laura Heim
Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure. I'm glad there's so much interest in the book. Take care. Limu Emu.
- [18:23]
Marshall Poe
And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people come customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [18:39]
Laura Heim
Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
- [18:41]
Marshall Poe
Cut the camera. They see us.
- [18:43]
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Laura Heim
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