← New Books Network
New Books Network
Jenny Banh, "Fantasies of Hong Kong Disneyland: Attempted Indigenizations of Space, Labor, and Consumption" (Rutgers UP, 2025)
00:55:27
Loading summary
Transcript27 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:07]
B
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the New Books Network. I'm your host, Donna Doane Anderson. Today's conversation features Dr. Jenny Bond's fantasies of Hong Kong, attempted indigenizations of space, labor and consumption, which was published by Rutgers University Press in August 2025. Fantasies of Hong Kong, Disneyland examines the attempt to transplant Disney's happiest place on Earth ethos to Hong Kong with unhappy results. Focusing on the attempted localization and indigenization of this idea in a globalized transnational park, the book delves into the three way dynamics of an American culture corporation's intentions, China's government investment and Hong Kong. The triple actors introduce an especially complex case as two of the world's most powerful entities, the nominally communist state of China and the corporate behemoth Disney, come together for a project in the third space of Hong Kong. The situation poses special challenges for Disney's efforts to manage space, labor and consumption to achieve local adaptation and business success. Jenny Bond is a keynote speaker, curriculum developer and professor of Asian American Studies and anthropology at California State University, Fresno. Her current research examines the barriers and bridges to Southeast Asian American students, Asian foodways and a Hong Kong corporation. In her community work, she has conducted coded and transcribed over 40 oral histories of Southeast Asian Americans who live in California's Central Valley. She donated all the oral histories to the school's library to create the Central Valley Southeast Asian American Successful Voices Archive. Recently she helped co create an Azam Asian major, 19 new Asian American studies courses and three certificates. She has been awarded two teaching awards and four service awards. Please join me in welcoming Dr. Jenny Fong. Hi Jenny, thank you so much for joining me in conversation today. Before we get started going into your really great book, I was wondering if you could share with our listeners how you came to this project and tell us a little bit about your process and inspirations.
- [03:08]
C
Hi Diana, thank you so much for inviting me on your book podcast. I'm very grateful to you. Well, I have a long kind of interest in labor actually as a Chinese restaurant kid, I've always been into labor. And so because I was a laboring Chinese kid and working in a Chinese restaurant and so that's I've always been interested in labor and consumption and space because that's kind of how I grew up in Ferguson, Missouri. And I just always noticed these three things. And so my master's thesis was on sweatshops in El Monte. Sweatshops in El Monte, California. The Thai sweatshop women that were in prison. And so that was like very interesting to me. I interviewed these people and I also when I was looking at it, I looked at who they were working for, what companies were they working for. And it was these transnational different companies. You know, you can name all the names because those, all the names that they were imprisoned due. And it got me very fascinated. I was a little bit shocked actually. I was like, I can't believe that you're imprisoning these women, these Thai women in El Monte, California, kind of relatively close to where I was living. And two, I couldn't believe that it was these big companies. And so because of that, it kind of got me into like looking at labor issues, international labor issues. And so yeah, I noticed and shocked with Disney was one of the laboring, allegedly sweatshop industries. And so it was always in my mind I was like, oh, how interesting. Okay, interesting. And so my original goal was to go to China, work at a sweatshop in Hong Kong. That was the goal. But because if anyone knows the history and the very difficult political and I'm not going to get in that, but quite difficult political issues of if you look at labor in China, I was advised by my advising professors first, a lot of the labor went to mainland China, but my actual topic could have gotten me myself into some deep issues. And I'M going to be transparent here is I love Hong Kong, I love China, and I'm not going to be banned from China. Okay? I told myself I will not be banned. And that of course could have happened because my topic is on labor, space and consumption in transnational organization. And so I had that in my mind that I'm not going to do that. And so I switched from a going to mainland China to instead going to Hong Kong and actually having a very similar analysis on a westernized transnational exhibit so corporation. So I felt safer and I could, you know, analyze what I would have still analyzed actually had I working in a sweatshop in mainland China. I just pivoted it to another institute. And also, since I'm a first generation college student, I also wanted to actually write a book about it. And I was advised really early, you know, I should pick topics that people would be interested in reading. And I've always been interested in pop culture. And so I thought, you know, what's something that I would be interested in reading? Right? It's the same. It's the same analysis. I could have done China, you know, ceramics, 1500s and do space, labor consumption of. But instead I just did on something that I actually pretty much enjoy myself. Like, I'm a big cartoon person and in the Chinese restaurants. My parents were not into parenting and so I watch a lot of cartoons and pbs. And so that's kind of how I got into the topic. And I was really excited. They said Disney was going to Hong Kong. And it got me so excited. And I sort of had that thing from my master's thesis and I thought, perfect, perfect. Yeah. And it was. And I'm so glad I did that, actually. It's been a delight. Not easy anyway. It was so difficult. I want to tell all people it was very difficult research, but I did it. I don't regret it. It was a great thing.
- [07:21]
B
Oh my gosh. I really. 1 Firstly loved your response and transparency about going through the research process, deciding what paths and directions that you wanted to take and then pursuing your passions and how that could come out into this scholarly work. And I think that's really indicative of the book itself. You know, I loved how the book mixes your personal reflections with your field notes with scholarly analysis, like throughout the text. Right. And so I almost could hear your voice coming through in such personal ways in your writing. And I like how it grounds the fact that really there is another person on the other side of these works that we're reading. Right. To acknowledge that there is A little bit of a struggle behind this. So kind of on the note of methodologies and knowing a little bit about you as an anthropologist. Right. Could you tell us about the methodologies, the framings, the approaches and how your training as an anthropologist influenced your approach to writing fantasies of Hong Kong Disneyland?
- [08:22]
C
That is a great question. Thank you so much for asking. Because I think a lot of people don't understand the anthropological method. So I did field work. So field work for, you know, this book took me 15 years, a little longer than most books. And I did almost two years of field work in another country that I was not like super familiar with. Again, I'm from Ferguson, Missouri, Belleville, Illinois. So I in anthropology, one of the things that, you know, old school anthropology, you're going to do field work for one, at least one year. I did almost two years. But I kept going back every single year. And you know, finally I finished the dissertation. It took me, you know, eight and a half years, which was a long time. And then I got into the tenure track in my university and immediately I started working on this book again. And then I had to refute everything. I wrote some things and some things I had to go. So I did field notes, I did, I did field work. I did, I interviewed quite a few people. And I also, which I really try to mask in the book because I did interview the top people. So when I, when you see an interview or you see it, that is not a person that was, you know, perhaps like a layperson. I, I truly try to mask that I did interview the very top people and in the organizations. And so I did that of course I, you know, typical, I teach anthropology methods. So I did the typical methods. I, it was two years. So I mapped the block, you know, informal interviews, you know, interacting with the community. And so yeah, you know, I, I, I did that. Lots of different field methods and I did them all. And then I later on after I, I turned in the book, finally I had to the peer review where they said go back and relook at this because, you know, the data is from, a lot of them is from. I mean I did go back every single year, every two years, at least one to two years I'd go back. And then so one of the peer reviewers said, well, you know, this is great. You know, this is definitely should be published. All three peer reviews. One said, go back to Hong Kong and relook at the, the space and labor and consumption. And I was like, oh, oh my goodness. And so I somehow went back and redid a lot of it. I looked and it. And I'm happy to say that it was everything that I said. It was re double stamped that. So that's why you see the book is a little different timestamps. Right. Because I relooked at it and it came out the same answer. So I was very, very happy with that. And it was a quite difficult peer review to read that. But I am a Catholic school kid through and through. I wanted to be very, very to make the nuns happy. So I did go back and I re interviewed people and it was the same answer. It was the same answer. So that is. Yeah. So the field work was. The methods was so much so it was just amazing. And also the machine of Disney is constantly changing and so some of the new lands happening. And then of course the elephant in the room was the Hong Kong riots. Right. The dumb walker movements. And so that's something, that's the elephant in the room that is impacting Hong Kong, Disneyland. And that's something that I specifically touched upon, but didn't touch upon it because again, I'm not a local and I didn't think I had the expertise to comment on that. Although I did see a lot of protests and very much know that it affected. But I'm not the scholar to talk about the elephant in the room. So that is I, from my perspective, I saw what I personally saw and why I personally wrote about was what I think. So I think that might be something that another scholar perhaps would be better suited to speak about. I wish I could have, but it's that long history of Chinese labor and Chinese international democracy movement is not something that I can speak on in a, in an academic sense. So I didn't, I didn't. Yeah. I just only touched upon it. That elephant in the room.
- [12:56]
B
I mean, I do, I agree with you. You do touch on it, but I don't necessarily. I feel like you give it more attention than you're. You're saying in your response. Right. And so I hope that kind of helps us think about and transition into my next question, which is focusing on the three kind of main terms of your book. Right. Space, labor and consumption. And so since you've talked about Hong Kong and its contentious kind of relationship with mainland China, how its relationship has changed a lot since the 90s and how Hong Kong, Disneyland has kind of served as an example of these tensions manifesting in different spaces. Right. I hoped we could talk a little bit about labor. Right. Which is the focus of your second chapter and one of the Most compelling angles that I personally took away from your book was the connection between Hong Kong Disneyland as kind of a modern unequal treaty. Right. So could you say a little more about the development and the construction of Hong Kong Disneyland and how that constitutes as a form of a neo colonial relationship? That's my words, not yours, but in my opinion, right. Like I was reading it and I was like, oh, this is kind of a neocolonial kind of relationship between the United States and Hong Kong. So, you know, if you could share a little bit more about those unequal contracts and how that relates to the labor question in Hong Kong and Hong Kong Disneyland, that'd be great.
- [14:19]
C
Thank you. That's such a great question. But let me back one step before that, because neocolonial. Let me go back to colonial. So there was something in. And of course, if you look at Chinese history, there was the British forced the Chinese to do the unequal treaty and particularly selling opium to China, where China disagreed with this. And of course, there was ensuing the Opium War, where then, you know, the Chinese were fighting back and they lost Hong Kong and Macau to Britain. And then there was kind of a. People were just crossing over China and distributing. So Hong Kong itself was a colony for 100 years to Britain, right? A lot of no dogs, no Chinese signs, right. So the people themselves were colonized. But in that colonization, they did become one of the most modern, modern, technologically super modern. It plays much more superior to mainland China. Right now it's changed. It's a Korea has come up, Japan, Singapore, China's come up, right? But at the time, that 100 years had really made it very valuable and very modern, right? And so, you know, if you're listening, you know, in 1980s and 1970s, I'm sure your parents had a translation radios or T shirt or like maybe plastic flowers made in Hong Kong, 100%. So you have this like wealth of Hong Kong, so powerful. So I put powerful in her quotes because powerful as a colony of Britain where. But the youth people were, you know, taught English and they were, they were superior to, not only say superior, but more industrialized and more modern than mainland China, right? And so when 1997 came out, it was going back to China. These, these Hong Kongers were devastated, did not want to go back because they felt superior. And then, so there was an international movement to United States, Canada, Australia, still. There is still a back and forth now, right, for the transnational elite. And so that Hong Kong, Disneyland came up in this milieu, right? In a going back to 1970. So this contract was talked about during this time of massive industrialization because all these, like, transitional jobs all went to Shenzhen. They went to Shenzhen, China. And so it's very difficult to compete with 10 cents an hour if you're used to Hong Kong. And so Hong Kong was in a tailspin. It was in a tailspin. People are leaving, people are running away, people. So you have this like movement, right? Everyone's leaving, some people staying who have to stay. And so this is when Disney comes in during this terrible time. And again, Hong Kong does not have democracy. So don't let the British tell you that there was democracy during that time and there was not democracy for the Hong Kongers. They have some committee like voting system where the elites are part of committees and they choose it. So again, there is no democracy. So Hong Kong people did not vote for this Disneyland. It was a committee and the committee voted for. We should have this, this, these transnational leads. You know, let's say Klaus talks about it, right? Their mindset is different from the local people right there. They travel the world, you know, in these 1 percenters. And like, oh, I've been to Disneyland United. It seems like a great idea. And again, Hong Kong in a tailspin. Jobs leaving for Shenzhen. And so it was voted on by this elite to have this contract. This, you know, of course Disney is, you know, you got to think of it in marketing. It's a great idea. Disney is very visible to the globe. And you have a tailspin, right? You need to have labor. You need to have labor. You need to have labor employment, right? And so Disney went to mainland China and said, hey, would you do this Disneyland? They said no. Well, there's no thinking about it. Think about it. Then it's in Hong Kong. Hong Kong in a tailspin. They're desperate. They went to Spain. Spain said no, right? Because the actual contract is so unequal. So the contract is. And again, back to Hong Kong, back to mainland China. History. China history is. They're very humiliated about the Opium War. And when they were carving up and taking away Hong Kong, they called it the unequal treaties, right? And so this contract was not equal because Hong Kong would have to, you know, they would have to own 57%, but purchasing 90% of the, of the, of the land, right? And so you have white entity doing 90% of the work of this 1.3 billion and then only owning 57%. That is not equal. I always have. I have a class event where I do my class. I make my students like you guys are Disney and you guys are Hong Kongers who raise your hand, you want this event, you pay for the land, you pay for all the MTR trains. You're going to donate this and this and 90% of it, and you're going to own 57. I always ask you, who's going to be owning the 57? Everyone's hands down. So that was a contract quite unequal and again, very much not liked. When that contract came out publicly to Hong Kong people, they're like, what? This was the contract. I did not vote. Again, they did not vote for this. Right? They don't have democracy. And when the contract agreements came out, then when the transparency actually. And they weren't transparent. So, Donna, they were not transparent. This was unknown. It was sold to the Hong Kong people as a savior. It's savior. It's going to save us all without telling people the actual numbers, right? And so there was a certain feeling after the contract numbers were turned out. And one of the feeling was anger. Okay? Anger was a feeling, okay? Unhappiness and kind of like. But other people were like, no, it's a savior. We got to do it. We got to do it for the jobs. We have to do it for the jobs. And so that was kind of like an. One of the feelings right now. And so they did, did a. I think I forget what. Hong Kong University did a survey. They did a survey with the majority of Hong Kong people in this survey said good idea. And that changed quickly. But initially it was the savior of Hong Kong. So that, that's kind of the origin of Hong Kong Disneyland. But of course it changed over time because it's never only three years. It has never had a profit. Right? So in the mo, One of the most like profit driven places on the planet, they do look at rate of return. And my goodness, it's only been three years of positive rate of return. It has not had any positive. So they've lost millions every year. They continue to pay the Disney franchise fee, right? So they're. And again, Disney quite happy because even if they win or lose, they're just getting money. But the kicker is this. When the Hong Kongers, you know, knew that they're losing millions, Losing millions. And then you have Ocean park doing better, right? The rival, kind of like a Six Flags, right? Just being so culture competent, doing well. When they announced that Shanghai Disneyland was going to open. Pandemonium. Donna, I'm talking about pandemonium, okay? Because if I'm in China, it's so easy to Travel around so cheap, Right. Why wouldn't I pay less money to go to someplace that's four times as big? Why if I'm a mainland Chinese person, why would I pay the visa fee so expensive for me, pay the extremely expensive fee to travel to Hong Kong to go to a park a fourth or one third of the, of the size. Right. You kind of think, and then again, as you say, some would argue that it was kind of an equal treaty and perhaps a neocolonial because again, I do see one still surviving and still thriving, one entity of this two part partnership. And so you can, you can see that it's.
- [22:43]
B
Yes, yeah. When you say two park partnership, then I'm like, oh, it's like a two part. Anyway, I was like, the parallels are there, obviously. Right. And I think what you're highlighting in this response is how, you know, even from its inception, this Hong Kong Disneyland has had a slew of different problems, a slew of different considerations that seem to continue to be unresolved. Right. So I wanted to get to then this face question. Right. And in your work the process of indigenization is central to your analysis and in anthropology, and this is something you note in the preface. This term is used to describe a process when quote, the local population takes outside productions and makes it their own. End quote. So coming from my background, right, which is in ethnic studies and history, it's a little hard for me to imagine a company like Disney as you've, you know, we've articulated, is kind of this global conglomerate, right. Making the appropriate considerations to embed indigenous knowledge, say from the Punti or the five great clans into their planning of Hong Kong Disneyland. So could you explain how in your analysis and to what varying degrees, Disney has engaged with this process of indigenization, especially in such a contested place like Hong Kong?
- [24:02]
C
That's another great question. So I am using anthropological term apodore not in the ethnic studies definition. It's an anthropological to be to localize. Right. So to the credit of Disney, and also because of their capitalist aims, to be clear, because they want to sell more, they realize quickly that they should abide by the culture. Particularly looking at Paris Disneyland. Right. Which again was also a failure in some sense. They did almost go bankrupt three times. And I think French theorists called it the cultural Chernobyl. Okay, so. And also there was a suicide there. And also someone did try to detonate a bomb there. So again, looking from Disney's perspective and having all this heat from this other, I think it was in their benefit to try to indigenize. So you do not have the Euro. Euro Disney. Now it's called, renamed Paris Disney. To the extent, I think, for its capitalist goals. Right. And one could say maybe even possible. Right. Indigenous space was on its agenda. Right. But again, Donna, let's look at what happened for space. Right? Number one, the actual thing, the park. When they first were dredging up the park, they found World War II bombs.
- [25:25]
A
Okay.
- [25:26]
C
Undetonated bombs. That was interesting. Also, there was obviously an environmental perspective of the. The fisheries would be destroyed and in the fishes. Right. So there is some environmental space issue. So definitely. And the dogs were rounded up and euthanized. Right. So even from the inception of indigenization, you know, there's some things in space that happened. But to their credit, they did hire a feng shui person who. Feng shui. If you don't know what feng shui is or feng shui, it's like a geomancy technique from China that somehow later, during the Cultural Revolution, is outlawed, but still practiced in Taiwan and Singapore and areas. It's a way to place things, to have good energy. Good luck. And to the credit, they did hire a feng shui expert to go to Disney. I was able to actually interview quite a few laborers and ask them and also guests who, you know, hey, they feng shui the place. What do you think? Was it effective? They're like, these laborers are like. These workers? Like, no, that's just. What does this mean? It was just. It's just to make money for the owners. It makes no difference. Right. And again, I cited a. A dissertation out of Australia where she literally looks at the feng shui of it, and it's not exactly, you know, deep feng shui that they truly do in China. So it's kind of interesting. But, you know, it was publicized, widely publicized, that this was an indigenization attempt. Right. And you know, to the. To the credit, they did hire somebody.
- [27:10]
B
That's really interesting. And I think, yeah, when I read that chapter, I was like, oh, yeah? How. How would that work? Right. And so to think about then, how feng shui and these kind of cultural practices, localized consumptions, come out into Hong Kong, Disneyland and what it's offering as an experience. Right. And so in chapter three, you examine the role of utopia in Disney's branding. And this is a phrase that every listener probably is familiar with, Right. The happiest place on earth. So Hong Kong, Disneyland attempts to recreate this, but really with a special twist by incorporating things like feng shui, like you just mentioned, but also like offering certain culinary experiences, offering certain kind of purchasable items that are more attuned to local consumptions. Right. And this isn't really necessarily super effective. Right. So could you share a little more about these efforts and to catering to Hong Kongers and in Hong Kong, Disneyland in this space and how does it become, and what you say in this chapter, dystopian.
- [28:18]
C
So I do talk. I use a heterotopia as one of my lenses, right? How people are in different spaces, see it differently, right? So one thing. In Hong Kong and all of China, this is a common thing. Donna, they have shark fin soup. Okay, that. I'm, I'm. If you've been to any Chinese wedding, you're going to be served shark fin soup. I mean, I unfortunately consumed it while as a child. I will never do it now as adult. But shark fin soup, of course, is a normative and common culinary wedding idea. Right. And this is all in China, right? This is all, you know, 1.4 billion. And Hong Kong is, you know, colony of China now. Now going back, colony of Britain, I'll go back. So to be indigenous, you're gonna have what is standard in actually Hong Kong, Hong Kong wedding venues is to have the shark fin soup. Right. Again, I'm not speaking of the people in Hong Kong having weddings. And McDonald's, that's like this new thing. So they did have the shark fin as a culinary indigenous item. But again, anyone who knows how they treat the poor shark, they take the shark, they cut the shark fin and then it's bleeding to death over the side. And yes, so there was a lot of environmental groups all over who objecting for a Western organization to have shark fin soup. Right. And so Disney had this like, kind of hybrid. Yes, we should indigenize, but it is bad. And so they would still have the shark fin soup. And then they would put placards on top of the wedding venues that said, this is environmental devastation. This is murdering these sharks. It is very bad. So you can imagine these weddings, you're having it with a card, right? And so again, there were environmental groups that came into Hong Kong Disneyland that dressed up as a bloody shark. So imagine you're going to the happiest place on earth getting onto the Audiotopia, looking there at a these bloody sharks. So, you know, that was an interesting indigenization attempt and again, ongoing. So there are other culinary attempts, Right. Hong Kong, I'm going to argue, is one of the most delicious places to eat that have Michelin star food everywhere for a Very great cheap price point, right? And so when you have like mich. And you can go to Hong Kong, it's like. And Donna, have you been there before?
- [30:56]
B
I haven't, I haven't. Sorry, I wasn't. I wasn't recording when I said that. But no, I have not been to Hong Kong.
- [31:00]
C
Oh, yeah. I hope you go one day and I hope you go to Hong Kong. Disneyland at Ocean Park. So if you go there, just the street food is so delicious and so cheap and so magnanimously like Earth soul. It's like, it's like I argue it's. It's a Hong Kong right to have good food all the time, right. Very cheaply as well. Like great part. So, you know, you have this base of deliciousness, right? Just like Michelin star food wherever you go. To go into Disneyland and see a hot dog wrapped in plastic or a little, you know, curry balls in plastic for triple the price. Not really tasting that great. It's not. And again, to the credit of Disneyland, they changed over and over again because no one's going to buy it. No one's going to buy it. Right. They tried different food methods, Right. And eventually I think I was just there listening last summer. And it's much better than what it was originally because it was this strange, like Western food that is not going to be at the palates of Hong Kongers. Right. But then it had. They had an indigenous, indigenized, kind of like Asian food that is 100, but you're triple pricing it is 100%, will not be accepted. Right. So it was a. I could see it's that probably that itself could be like an interesting book about how people just, you know, in Hong Kong, I really want to emphasize is a transnational space. It's a space where there's lots of different variations of Chinese refugees from China who are Shanghainese, who prefer Shanghai food, who are from different parts of China. And so they have their own culinary traditions. But then you have more recent arrivals of expats who are American, British, Koreans, right. Who have a different. And then you had this large, like for this group, Indians, South Asians coming in. And so it's hard to actually cater to all these different groups. And then what they said, would there be a 10 million people coming or something? Right. No, that's. That's more than the whole population of Hong Kong. So it's. They're going to rely on mainland Chinese people coming. But mainland Chinese people have a different palette. You know, I've been to China. There's so many different cuisines and so many. So it's a very hard lift to satisfy all these different groups. But each time I went Donna, I witnessed the argument. Each and every time I would see American Westerner go into the bakery and go, that's not pie. That's not cake. It's not even sweet. It doesn't look like cake. It doesn't look like pie. So it didn't really satisfy the American palette. Right? But then I would see a Hong Konger, like, it's so expensive. I can get this, you know, down the street, this MTR station, for like $2, right? Why am I going to spend, you know, $8 or. I'm talking about Hong Kong dollars, right. For something that's not even as good. But then you would see, like, these. I would see these curious and like, I'm going to be able to say it bewildered mainland Chinese or like, what is this? It's like, not recognizable. Like a hot dog, a corn dog. It's just not. And of course, they were not satiated with that. Right? And so I would. Every single time I went, I would see. Dissatisfy people. It was. It's like. It's kind of like a Venn diagram, like, of different palettes. And it's hard for Disney to get. How are you satisfying these Venn diagrams of, like, South Asians, mainland China, from all over China, Hong Kongers, expats and Americans. It's diff. It's a hard lift. And they were not successful in some ways and satisfying these various groups. But to their credit, they try to move around, do these things. So on the topic of feng shui. Let me keep going, Donna. Okay. Every single time I went there in terms of space, I witnessed a screaming argument. Every single time. Okay, I will go there. If I may, Donna. Let me go there. Okay. Not every country does the Q or line culture, which means, like, Q, which is standing in line. Yes, we know British. They stand in line. Hong Kong is a British colony. And so you have. And again, I want to note, Hong Kong people never really queued. Okay? So in the history of Hong Kong, okay, they didn't really queue. It was actually McDonald's that came that forced them to queue. They had like, a McDonald's lady. I was like, go back in line. Go there. And like, so we. We have this history of Hong Kongers, you know, being like, civilizing mission, quote, unquote. Right. Again, you know, it's whatever you think. So they were forced to line. So you have these Hong Kongers in Line trained in line by McDonald's, you know, by McDonald's. Look at the Watson book. And then you have these mainlanders, right, who do not come from any culture of queuing. So what happens is sometimes you'll have one kid that will jump the line of 30 people, unload and bring the whole family in front of you, right? And so of course there's a screaming match, There's a screen match each and every time. And I saw it every day I went there, I never did not see a screen match. You had the frazzled like Hong Kong Disneyland worker and saying in Cantonese and kind of like an accented like Mandarin, please, please stand in line, please, please. Right? And then you know that these mainlanders do not speak Cantonese. But you would have unloaded Hong Kongers to scream in Cantonese at this little small child cutting them. So it was just a funny kind of space thingy. So something that people don't know is the friction and anger between Hong Kongers and mainland Chinese. Obviously it's not about the killing. There's other things like the elephant room, okay? There's lots of international political intrigues and. But it was funny to see it because you would see these like schoolgirls who. I'm ashamed of it. I thought, I'm shamed, okay? But I saw Hong Kong girls, they're like 15 year old girls and they locked hands like this. It was like 1, 2, 3. And they would hold the pole and then walk forward, hold the pole, hold the pole. And then they would see like a little third grader, like you know, mainland. And it put their, the elbows down so the kid could not go overneath, right? And so it was really fun and exciting and kind of like. Because there's. I noticed that in mainland China there's different types of line cutting, right? There's rolling your back, just rolling, rolling. And then you roll past the person. There's sneaky. Is there opening, look over and then sneak in, right? And then there's just straight trying to just go through, right? So everyone does it in mainland China. Everyone does it, right? And so these Hong Kongers were not having it. They were not. If someone tried to, you know, roll hands out this way, if someone's trying to roll, they would scream and can't see. Get back in the line, right? And so it was quite exciting and fun. And I'm ashamed now, I am ashamed to admit this, but because I was constantly getting cut, I also my family just put their hands out to block because if you don't, you're Just you in line. You will just keep going to the end. You will never get to the top. So that is a space kind of issue, one could say.
- [38:33]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think one. Firstly, to hear you talk about, like, food and culinary expertise is really, really kind of pulling me back to your first edited work on American Chinese restaurants. And so I was just like, wow, what a really wonderful connection. But then also, yeah, thinking about how this challenges our impulse to monolithize Asian communities and Chinese communities particularly, which is something that I know in Asian American studies is often talked about. But to think about it and how it extends in a global sense, I think is really interesting to think about with food and consumption and what Hong Kong Disneyland is offering. Now, all that said, we have talked through all the various problems and considerations that Hong Kong Disneyland has tried to go through, and to what extent those have been successful or what it feels like is more so unsuccessful. Right. So it seems impossible, but we know it's not, because your final chapter of the book focuses on Ocean park, which is this other park in Hong Kong, Right. That seems to be doing everything that Hong Kong Disneyland wants to do, but, like, significantly better. Right? So what is that? What is Ocean park offering that Hong Kong Disneyland fails to provide? And in your opinion, what would Hong Kong Disneyland need to do to sustain itself?
- [39:54]
C
Those are great questions. It's two part questions. Okay, so first, I should talk about Ocean Park. So Ocean park, if you're an American listener, is kind of like Six Flags. It's basically Six Flags if Six Flags had a baby with, like, SeaWorld, right? So it's like a. It's a theme park. Like, more like, you know, not as themed as Disney, but. And plus, like, a sea world, like, zoo.
- [40:16]
B
Right?
- [40:17]
C
And so that is their kind of. So here's my funny story. So, Donna, I was, like, always like, hey, can I do an interview with you about Hong Kong Disneyland? Hey, can I talk about it? Every time I would talk, they would flip back. Excuse me, I would like. I would like to talk about Ocean Park. Have you been to Ocean Park? Oh, my God, Ocean park is so great. Ocean Park. I was like, like, can we talk about Honkadoos? Like, no, I want to talk about Ocean Park. How Ocean park is so much better than Honkadoos. I was like, okay, so that is actually what got me into Ocean park. Because every interview I did with the locals, they just. But have you talked about Ocean Park? Have you been there? So there is such an indexual dragging, like, nostalgia for this place. Right? It's Ocean park is their competitor, right? And it's a competitor that's in the deep in the heart of Hong Kongers, right? It's deep in the heart for multiple reasons. One is whenever you have a birthday, you get to get. You have free tickets, something you relate it to like birthday parties and to yourself, like so you have all this childhood memories. If you are A K through 12, you've gone to Ocean park for your class trip, right? It's inexpensive, it's fun. It's not a Rolls Royce, it's a Honda. It's doing great. But you know, you don't need a Rolls Royce. You just want to have a theme park a thing. So I think that it's always been the heart of Hong Kongers. It actually the, the in attendance went down, right? Because people are anticipating Ocean Park, Disneyland coming. So a lot of people went down. And so out of nowhere, Donna, you had these two mega, very forward thinking CEOs. You have Tom Merman and I think it's Alan Zieman, right. And these two men respect Hong Kong and they have Ernest. What do Hong Kong people like? These are two, I would say very forward thinking Western. Actually. I think one took the one's Canadian, I think and then also he took like a Chinese citizenship. And then one is actually I believe a Six Flags executive at one point, right? And they with listening to the locals, right? Fully listening, right. High executives gave confidence and redid made a multi million dollar redid do of Ocean park to make it more standardized. And even before that and also they did things very specific. They did viral, viral videos in Hong Kong. Kind of like slang. Hong Kong's like fast like New York. And so they have their own slang. So put up these like, like these viral videos using slang that's in the heart of Hong Kong because they're kind of like snarky people, right? I say that and with Allah love, okay? I'm, you know, my family Hong Kong. And so that is one of the things they in terms of labor, they have a more streamlined labor. It's Hong Kong people treated well. In terms of Hong Kong Disneyland. There's a lot of labored things in the news about sweatshop labor, about they're not allowed to have like breaks. And so people fainted. There was a suicide attempt by one of the things. And then of course people in my looking at labor, I saw, I interviewed a lot of Filipino dancers that said that, you know, they're not treated same as other dancers. Right. But you don't have this in Ocean park, they're all from Hong Kong. They've all been working there for like, you know, many decades. And I'm not saying they're being paid really high wages, but there's a standard of everyone is from one place and it's standardized. Right. Again, there's of course controversy with the ocean, you know, zoos having animals. So that's something that to note. But so you have the consumption is clearly Cantonese. It is Hong Kong. And they're proud of being from Hong Kong. They have this like little old time Hong Kong. And again, Hong Kong has been a lot of transformations of like, like they're, you know, a lot of people talk about how like there is no old Hong Kong more because they raised it because of so many skyscrapers. Right. So then people who remember 1970s, 1980s Hong Kong or 1950s, it's like in their heart. So in Ocean park there was like kind of like olden day Hong Kong. Right? And you know, I, I feel very emotional there as well because it's probably the only place really in Hong Kong other than like a few places maybe. Is it Sha Tin? There's a very few places in Hong Kong that look like old day Hong Kong. You'd have to go to like Malaysia or something to like see if you do old time movies in Hong Kong. You go to Malaysia. So I mean, I think that it's these particular two gentlemen who are very forward thinking, very culturally competent and very, very prideful of Hong Kong. Maybe more prideful than a lot of just Hong Kongers. Right. And, and again, I did interview the top people who were actually, I did interview quite a few of designers that were doing Hong Kong, Disneyland and they were saying, you know, that, you know, they were like not treated equally by the other designers. They were like their engineering skills, their engineers were not, you know, their opinions were not put into like, like above or equal to the American. Right. And so maybe their voices weren't as heard. Right. But Ocean park, that's a Hong Kong people, Hong Kong Y. You have the two directors, but you have two directors. You're listening and clearly matriculating and also what the locals say. And I think that you cannot dispel these two people. How two people can actually save a place. And also I would like to mention that Ocean park is making a massive profit. Ocean park has actually made a profit okay, every year. Ocean park has also outdated during that many years out attendance. That's like a David and Goliath. That is a David and Goliath situation. Because we have A small hometown. Right. Kind of like a Six Flags, Disneyland, Six Flags and SeaWorld combination. Right. They don't have that multi billion dollar money that Disney has outdoing. Disney outdoing them. So I was like, that deserves a book that. That deserves his own book. Actually. A lot of people actually. It's funny, Donna. I'm like, hey, I want to write about this. I was like, why did you write a book about oceanbar? I got that all the time. And I think, I think that the. The author did write a book about why he was so successful. The Tom. I think it's called Taming Mouse because that deserves. He did write a book about Taming Mouse. Tom Merman. You should please read his book because that's. He's really forward thinking. Yeah, you can now you can really see how leadership matters. Leadership matters. And those two people, Alan Merman and Tom Merman. Let me get the book here. Ellen Zieman and Tom Merman. I want to show this. It's Tom Merman with Michael Swissell how a small Hong Kong theme park came to dominate Disney taming the mouse. 10 lessons that will turn your business into success. I highly recommend this because that's a clear example where leadership, of course, the workers are very important as well. But this is interesting because I don't know if this would happen if it had other leaders, because these leaders respect and are prideful of Hong Kong in a way I haven't seen before. Yeah.
- [47:52]
B
I mean, you mentioned how in all your interviews, people were asking like, oh, why don't you just write a book about Ocean Park? Like, why are you even wasting your time on Hong Kong, Disneyland? Which all that to say. You mentioned in the epilogue that this book took you 15 years to write. So clearly you have spent a lot of time thinking about Hong Kong, Disneyland and its place, its space, its labor and its consumption. So as we're kind of closing out the interview, my final question is about what's inspiring you these days. Is there a second book about Ocean Park? Is there kind of another through line that readers who love fantasies of Hong Kong Disneyland could look forward from, you know, from you in the future? And also just congratulations on writing a book. Like, 15 years is a long time and just getting it done. Like, I. Yeah, huge congrats.
- [48:42]
C
Your book will be next.
- [48:44]
B
Think a few years.
- [48:45]
C
Both. I think I forgot to answer that. What do I think that would make it successful? I think that both Ocean park and Disneyland offer two different things. One is a Hong Kong people's park. One is a transnational Disney Park. They have to combine for them to. I see a path for the future for them is combine, have a double ticket. Right. They offer two different things, both, you know, exceptional things. And I think that they should market themselves together and they can pivot off each other. So I see them if they do a double ticket or like a combined advertising, like come to Hong Kong, go to Oceanmark and to Hong Kong Disneyland. I think that's a route that would be more successful than just duking out. Although I do enjoy the Duke out between them because it's so fun. So fun. Okay, so you're asking my future. Okay, well, my next publication will be on Asian eats. It'll be on Foodways. So I am a Chinese restaurant kid and so my edit book is American Chinese Restaurant. Thank you for mentioning it. And I have Anthropology of Los Angeles. So I think that will be my next thingy Asian Eats. But I'm also very interested in Asian American women, particularly after Covid and. Or during COVID where Asian American women were targeted for hate and actually murdered. Like Michelle Goh was murdered pushed in front of a train and the Atlanta spa. So these have made me mad. And when I'm mad I like to write and then so like I write along to like, like assuage my emotions and I, I'm very interested in knowing why people like particularly hate Asian women. So I'm very interested in that and I. That's a fascination. I never really think about it. But then, you know, all these Asian women will be murdered during COVID So in particular like elderly Asians. Right. And elderly Asian women. So I think my next book will be on Asian eats and then. But after that I will do Asian American women and how they're depicted. And then after that I will do Southeast Asian educational barriers and bridges and we'll see. But I don't know, we'll see. I'm not a research one. I don't have to publish. I'm a full professor. I don't have to do anything. So I will.
- [50:55]
B
I know you're doing things. Don't say that. You're doing a lot of things. Very cool things.
- [51:01]
C
But one thing I do want to say is we did have a Fresno State at my university. We are the, we are the 27th, I think new Asian American studies major. And that was a huge lift. Asian American Studies, Asian studies major, bachelor's. So I call out to hold this major into the next six generation and beyond. A full out major. That is my next to try to build a scaffolding to see it strong and powerful. And I call out that I think that we should need, we need a PhD in Asia studies. And so that's something I'm going to put my heart into. Like, even if I. Because I'm kind of thinking about, like, you know, how people, like, they retire at 65 or something. Like, you know, I never retire, but it's like, well, if I never retire, then I can have like a goal. And I'm like, maybe a goal could be to start a movement or just not start, join a movement. There's no movement right now. But like start a movement or start a movement about getting a PhD in Asian American Studies. Asian Studies. That would be great because I think that Asian Marine Studies. I am an Asian Marine Studies scholar, not just Asianist anthropologist, but. But I think that's a big need and I want to see it in my lifetime. We'll see. Hopefully. I would love to see it. And I call out that it will happen one day.
- [52:15]
B
I mean, it sounds like you're up to so many different interesting projects. Right. And I love that you have such variation in your interests and pursuits. And so I, you know, I support it. So I'm looking forward to all the things that you're going to be doing in the future, Jennie. And I just want to say thank you for joining me in conversation today.
- [52:31]
C
Thank you, Donna.