Podcast Summary: New Books Network
Episode:
Jenny C. Mann, "The Trials of Orpheus: Poetry, Science, and the Early Modern Sublime" (Princeton UP, 2021)
Host: John Yargo
Date: November 8, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, John Yargo interviews Professor Jenny C. Mann about her book The Trials of Orpheus: Poetry, Science, and the Early Modern Sublime. The conversation explores how the figure of Orpheus encapsulates the force of poetic eloquence in early modern thought, the intersections between literary creation and scientific inquiry, and the enduring enigma of poetic transmission—the moment when the emotive and cognitive force of eloquence acts upon its audience. Mann discusses the mythological, philosophical, and aesthetic dimensions of Orpheus, her distinctive approach to writing and literary structure, and the effects of “softening” in poetry on gender and reception, culminating in connections to contemporary art and her next research project.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
Origins of the Book and Methodological Aims
[03:04] - [07:36]
- Mann traces the genesis of her book to her fascination with the perceived world-altering power of verbal eloquence in early modern rhetorical texts.
- She notes the omnipresence of the Orpheus myth at theoretical flashpoints about the force of poetry: "Anytime I went searching for the moments in these documents that might provide an answer, Orpheus was there."
- Her initial goal was to bridge scholarship in rhetoric/poetics with history of science, treating poetry as a producer of knowledge akin to alchemy or natural philosophy.
- As research progressed, Mann grappled with two opposing insights: Orpheus as both a symbol of knowledge-creation and as a force that unravels stable categories and authorities, dissolving epistemological frameworks.
Notable Quote – Articulation of Orphic Transmission
[07:45]
"Such a model of poetic transmission does not rely on the idea of the single author's career... Indeed, my articulation of an Orphic Ovidian theory of literary production as a kind of trial maintains that the precipitating cause of literary influence will remain unseen and unknown to those so influenced, because that is the fundamental meaning of action at a distance... To lay hold of such forces, one must first accept the impossibility of ever knowing them in a philosophical sense."
— Jenny C. Mann [08:08]
Writing Process and Revision
[10:23] - [13:28]
- Mann emphasizes her nonlinear, meandering writing process, in which thinking and writing are inseparable, and argument emerges through recursive revision.
- She comments on the importance of embracing one's unique writing identity, rather than mimicking others' methods.
"For me, the thinking process and the writing process are integral to one another... I think I've just realized it's my reality as a writer and I just need to own it."
— Jenny C. Mann [10:42-11:42]
Book Structure: Five Animating Words
[14:00] - [18:32]
- The book is organized around five concepts: meandering, binding, drawing, softening, scattering, with meandering and testing as bookends.
- This structure only crystallized late in the writing process, as Mann allowed the Orpheus myth to guide her organization, rather than adhering to a standard argumentative chapter structure.
"[The] myth had become my method of thinking and a kind of beautiful way of making that visible at the level of the table of contents."
— Jenny C. Mann [15:53]
Deep Dives into Chapters
Chapter 1: Meandering
[18:32] - [23:07]
- Mann uses the “meander”—a winding, nonlinear path—as a metaphor for poetic influence across time.
- The figure embodies non-causal, non-logical artistic relations, challenging linear models of literary history.
"I'm rather trying to capture this nonlinear, participatory strain of literary production, like within this system where sort of ahistorical time traveling contact can happen."
— Jenny C. Mann [21:18]
Chapter 2: Binding
[23:07] - [27:06]
- Explores Montaigne’s Platonically-inspired vision of poetry as a form of ravishment and transmission through an ungraspable “chain of eloquence.”
- Mann notes the resistance of poetry to empirical analysis: “You can't look at it from the outside... It just has to happen to you.”
"You can't look at it from the outside. Right? That's the sort of splendor of the lightning flash. It just has to happen to you... Is there something about [eloquence] that resists empirical observation, but perhaps also resists formal analysis?"
— Jenny C. Mann [24:55]
Chapter 3: Drawing
[30:31] - [34:03]
- Focuses on Marlowe’s Hero and Leander and Chapman's continuation.
- Mann highlights Chapman’s idea that composition is not solely voluntary but is spurred by a “strange instigation”—a force compelling the poet.
"The way he articulates the act of writing... is to subject himself to a force that has strangely instigated the composition of his poem... The poet isn't the source of the force, but rather is subject to that force."
— Jenny C. Mann [31:48]
Chapter 4: Softening
[34:03] - [37:28]
- Examines “softening” as both the destructive and creative potential of poetry, especially regarding gender codes and the subversion of martial masculinity.
- Softening is seen as the point where poetic power and cultural anxieties intersect, producing new models of masculinity via vulnerability.
"There's this really troubling... affiliation of Ovidian eloquence with a kind of culturally noxious softening of masculine identity.... an alternate idea of masculine poetics, one that is not virile and martial, but... about the power that comes from passivity."
— Jenny C. Mann [35:18]
Connections to Contemporary Art and Teaching
The Early Modern Sublime and Modern Aesthetics
[37:28] - [41:30]
- Mann relates her study to the contemporary visual arts, especially in the work of Chilean poet-sculptor Cecilia Vicuña, whose hanging sculptures (Khipus) evoke non-linear, cross-temporal contact reminiscent of Orphic transmission.
- She describes the “river that runs both ways” as a metaphor for unpredictable, meandering connections with the past.
"There are these ways in which you... might have an encounter with an artwork that like sends me on this time-bending experience."
— Jenny C. Mann [41:15]
Classroom Encounters with Orphic Power
[42:39] - [46:57]
- Mann enjoys teaching Ovid’s Pygmalion story for stimulating reflection on artistic creation, its gendered dimension, and the boundary between life and art.
- The story’s ambivalence sparks philosophical as well as literary analysis among students.
"Those are the moments I love in the classroom where we're engaging with literature... getting at really challenging and significant philosophical questions, like what's the difference between something alive and not alive?"
— Jenny C. Mann [45:22]
Future Directions
Next Scholarly Project
[46:57] - [49:25]
- Mann is embarking on a new project about representations of “infinity” in Renaissance culture, tentatively titled Infinity, Labyrinth and Paradox since the Renaissance.
- She is investigating how acts of enclosure (labyrinths, paradoxes, garden designs) model attempts to represent the unrepresentable, with a focus on utopia and Renaissance mathematics.
"I’m working on infinity... attempts to model or represent infinite problems or infinite questions is a kind of particularly Renaissance technique for thinking through big problems."
— Jenny C. Mann [47:18]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Eloquence & Power:
“How on earth does verbal eloquence have this extreme power? Or, and you know, like what, what happens when the force of eloquent speech makes contact with an audience?”
— Jenny C. Mann [03:33] -
On Literary Transmission:
“...the precipitating cause of literary influence will remain unseen and unknown to those so influenced... action at a distance.”
— Jenny C. Mann [08:10] -
On the Experience of Poetry in Classrooms:
“I read a line of poetry out loud and I'm completely bowled over... and then I look around the room and the students just have not had that same... it's hard to intellectually lead them into that state of astonishment.”
— John Yargo [29:37]
Timeline of Key Segments
| Timestamp | Segment | |--------------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 03:04-07:36 | Origins of the book: Orpheus and poetic force | | 07:45-10:23 | Reading excerpt; the Orphic Ovidian transmission | | 10:23-13:28 | Mann’s writing process and revision philosophy | | 14:00-18:32 | Structure: five animating words | | 18:32-23:07 | Chapter 1: Meandering and nonlinear influence | | 23:07-27:06 | Chapter 2: Binding, Montaigne, and poetic ravishment| | 30:31-34:03 | Chapter 3: Drawing, Marlowe, and compulsion | | 34:03-37:28 | Chapter 4: Softening and masculine poetics | | 37:28-41:30 | Contemporary art and aesthetics (Cecilia Vicuña) | | 42:39-46:57 | Teaching: Orphic encounters and classroom texts | | 46:57-49:25 | Next project: infinity, labyrinth, and paradox |
Tone: Warm, inquisitive, and richly associative, reflecting both the host’s appreciation for Mann’s style and her own poetic approach to criticism. The language throughout is reflective, analytical, and intellectually adventurous, mirroring the book’s core themes of nonlinear influence and the enigmatic force of artistic creation.